RIP Intelligent Design Movement 19 June, 1987-7 November 2017

[RonO]

For the regulars on talk origins there is no doubt that the modern day
Intelligent Design Creationist Movement effectively died November 2017
when the Discovery Institute Intelligent Design "Think Tank" published
their "best" evidence for Intelligent Design Creationism. There should
be no argument at this time that we are talking about Intelligent Design
Creationism because 5 of the 6 "best" failed as Creation Science in the
Federal Courts in the 1980's and the 6th one is just the Scientific
Creationist's "the flagellum is a designed machine" assertion with
irreducible complexity thrown in on top and IC failed the Intelligent
Design Creationist Movement in federal court in 2005. What did ID
failing the Lemon Test mean? Everyone can also look up the religious
web sites started by the Discovery Institute after the loss in Dover
made denial of the religious intent ridiculous.

There should be no quibbling any more about the issue being intelligent
design creationism because all the regular TO ID proponents are
creationists of some kind (Hindu or Biblical creationists and we lost
the Islamic contingent some time ago) and all the main advocates of the
intelligent design political ploy who are or were fellows at the
Discovery Institute are Bibilical creationists of one type or another
(Young Earth Literalists to Deists).

Most of the regular creationist proponents on TO have just run from the
"best". Kleinman's scientific creationist probability argument didn't
make the "best" list and he can't bring himself to address that
oversight. Kalkidas, Glenn, and Nyikos have abandoned intelligent
design over the last 6 months. They can't bring themselves to address
the issue of the "best" that intelligent design has. Dean claimed to be
ignorant and claimed that he didn't know why the "best" failed the
Scientific Creationists. He ended up trying to misdirect the argument
to plagiarism after looking into a couple of the "best", but that was
obviously stupid and dishonest, so he started to make claims about his
ID science that didn't make the list. Why discuss stuff that is worse
than the "best"?

As the majority of intelligent design creationists likely feel right
now, Pagano was outraged at the "best" list. There should be pitch
forks and torches in all the creationists' hands. The "best" list means
that Pagano's creationist beliefs are bogus (geocentric creationist, but
all the young earth and many old earth creationists likely think that
the list is bogus too). Pagano claimed that the "best" wasn't the best,
and that some of the "best" did not apply to intelligent design. Pagano
has stopped his insane efforts (he has been silent on the issue for the
last couple of weeks) because even if the "best" has nothing to do with
intelligent design it is the "best" that all the intelligent design
proponents have, and it was given to them by the guys that have been
selling intelligent design creationism for over 2 decades.

So intelligent design creationism has effectively been dead on TO for
the last 6 months since the "best" list was put out by the Discovery
Institute. If the intelligent design creationist movement had been an
honest and viable activity the TO ID proponents should be wallowing in
the greatness of the "best". Instead the reality is that the "best" is
obviously not anything that they want to buy into and the ID proponents
either admit to that, or run away from reality in denial.

This is no surprise. There is no doubt that these "best" have been used
routinely by ID advocates for decades, but it is also obvious that they
believed that there was some actual science instead of these type of
filler arguments. The scientific creationists only used this same
"evidence" to fool their followers long enough to get to the next such
bit of "evidence". They could not deal with what the evidence was
actually telling them, but they could fool enough people or get them to
fool themselves long enough to get to the next set of distractions.
This is all the ID proponents have used the "best" for, and they
obviously do not want to deal with what the "best" evidence tells them.
There obviously isn't any ID science that the ID creationists want to
deal with at this time.

So the Discovery Institute has managed to wrap garlic around the ID
zombie's corpse, sprinkle holy water on it, and smash it's decaying
brains out with a barbed wire wrapped baseball bat by putting out the
"best" evidence for ID that they have always had. They could have put
up this same list over 22 years ago when they started the Discovery
Institute ID political propaganda unit. The ID proponents on TO want
nothing to do with what ID has always been. Why did it take so long to
abandon the ID political ploy on TO? The political ploy has always been
that there was some ID science to counter the real science, but that
obviously was never true.

The sad thing is that the ID movement was never an honest effort. The
Intelligent design movement started with the attempt to reanimate the
corpse of scientific creationism after the supreme court loss in 1987.
The 6 "best" list should tell anyone that much. All the references to
creationism in the creationist text book "Of Pandas and People" were
changed to intelligent design or design proponents after the supreme
court decision. Many of the people that would compose the Discovery
Institute ID propaganda unit were heavily involved in "Of Pandas and
People". Kenyon was the main author, Thaxton was the editor, Meyer
wrote the teachers notes, and Behe admitted to writing a portion of the
book, but was not credited. Dembski was editing the next edition of "Of
Pandas and People" at the time that the Dover court case was happening.
There is no doubt that the Discovery Institute ID ringleaders used to
advocate using "Of Pandas and People" to teach intelligent design in the
public schools.

After that start it has been all down hill for intelligent design. The
bait and switch started to go down in 2002 with the Ohio state board of
education fiasco. Instead of giving the Ohio board any ID science the
Discovery Institute only gave them a bunch of obfuscation arguments. No
intelligent design proponent has ever gotten the promised ID science to
teach in the public schools. Zero hasn't meant anything to the loyal ID
followers until the last 6 months.

The bait and switch failed in Dover because the creationists had
obtained their "free" legal defense and decided to not take the
obfuscation junk and decided to go forward with ID. The ID creationists
lost in federal court in 2005. ID was found to be no type of science
worth calling science and ID failed all three prongs of the Lemon test.

Phillip Johnson quit the ID movement and admitted that there was no ID
science in 2006. He is still alive, and has never come back to support
the ID movement, that I know of. Johnson was the one that wrote the
"amendment" to the "No child left behind" bill for Santorum, and was
called the "godfather" of the ID movement by the other ID participants.

The intelligent design scientific organization (ISCID) died in 2008.

The Intelligent Design Network of academics died in 2009.

It took the publication of the "best" list to kill ID on TO within the
last 6 months.

So what is next?

Some TO ID advocates are claiming that the "best" is not the best, and
put up stuff that is obviously worse than the "best". What kind of
future is there in doing that?

Most of the regular ID advocates on TO are just running away in denial.
Running is not going to amount to anything. Bill has even started to
claim that he was never an intelligent design advocate. After years of
supporting the creationist intelligent design movement, is this all that
ID is going to be for all the ID advocates that supported it? Is denial
the only way that creationist advocates of the Intelligent design
movement can deal with reality? Isn't it sad that creationists like
Dean try to deny being creationists? Whether ID advocates like Dean
want to accept reality or not what was the intelligent design movement
based on, and why were ID advocates willing to be fools for so long?

This is the current creationist reality on TO. Who could have predicted
that the Discovery Institute "think tank" could kill the intelligent
design movement by simply stating the best evidence for ID that they have?

So what is next?

ID advocates like ex Senator Santorum went back to calling what he
supported creationism after the loss in Dover. It had always been a
religious issue for guys like Santorum. It has always been a religious
issue for most of the ID advocates on TO, if they could be honest with
themselves, so my guess is that the discussions should become more
honest from here on out Like Bill's latest thread "What makes ID
false", the creationists have to start dealing with why they were ID
advocates in the first place and working out the ground rules for why ID
was just a bogus political ploy, and what they really wanted out of it.
We can discuss things like why ID failed to amount to anything. We can
deal with ID advocates notions like thinking that ID could be claimed to
be false. ID can't even be evaluated in any way to determine if it is
true or false. That has been one of the issues, but Bill is just
getting around to trying to figure that out. It is obvious that a lot
of issues like that have to be dealt with before any progress is made on
supporting the ID advocate's religious beliefs in the future.

Running away in denial has to stop someday. ID is obviously not getting
any better and shows no improvement in over 2 decades of running the ID
political ploy.

Ron Okimoto

P.S. I hope Kalkidas didn't have to strain too hard to try to find a
reason to SNIP and run from reality.;-)

What kind of excuse could he possibly have for snipping and running from
reality?

List of the "best" so guys like Kalk can run away again.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/talk.origins/_feO9fmgROE/ezfjJ6ICAwAJ

[jillery]

My impression is the modern day Intelligent Design Creationist
Movement was born brain-dead. But don't think its supporters are just
going to just roll over and stop doing what they do. Like an organism
with a really slow metabolism, they don't know they're already dead.
If recent posts from T.O. supporters don't convince you, there's this
letter to the editor, courtesy of The Sensuous Curmudgeon:

***********************************
<https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900018185/letter-evidence-for-gods-existence-is-everywhere.html>

<https://tinyurl.com/yak9lkg3>

Religion is a very important, powerful aspect in a lot of people’s
lives. Everywhere we look we see acts of God — some big, some small.
For example, the world we live in today could not possibly just happen
by chance. The way everything works together and the balance between
all of the organisms on this planet was directly from the hands of
God. Miracles are another act of God that often have no scientific
explanation. There are so many things that happen in our day-to-day
lives that can be classified as miracles. There is little scientific
evidence to support any of these things, and yet they still happen. I
encourage all people to consider believing in a higher power,
regardless of what it is. There is far too much in this world that
can’t be explained by science to ultimately rule out the existence of
God.
***************************************

--
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Attributed to Voltaire

[RonO]

The TO regulars know that the ID movement is dead or they wouldn't be
running in denial of what ID is. No one claims that creationism is just
going to go away. Organized religion will be with us for the
foreseeable future. The original scientific creationist organizations
still exist even though the creationist political players dropped them
when they had to take up the ID scam. I expect that the ID perps will
be around for as long as they keep getting funding. The ICR, CRS and
AIG claim to be ministries and live off donations. The Discovery
Institute was pleading for donations as they were running the bait and
switch on the Utah IDiots and telling the world that no real ID science
exists by putting out their list of their "best". As long as there are
people willing to support the ID perps the political scam it will
continue. At this time the only use for intelligent design is as bait
to run in the obfuscation switch scam. The ID perps are the ones that
kill the use of ID whenever it comes up. No one ever gets the promised
ID science. If the bait and switch ever fails again, we will just have
another court case to demonstrate how worthless ID is again. My guess
is that ID will never get to the supreme court because there won't be
any use in appealing the lower court verdict.

Failing all three prongs of the Lemon test and having to deal with the
"best" evidence when the ID perps don't call it scientific evidence,
won't get the IDiots very far.

Ron Okimoto

[Ron Dean]

This was written by a Mormon authority and published in a Mormon paper.
I have learned over the years of dealing with Morman missionaries who
frequented me when I lived in Utah. They act exactly like evolutionist
when their religion is challenged or questioned by attacking and
denouncing the inquirer.

[RonO]

What are you acting like to pretend to be interested in the science when
you are just a plain old creationist science denier? Really, can you be
at least that honest with yourself. You have just found out that there
never was any ID science worth calling science, so what was the scam all
these years?

Dishonesty like this when it is your religious beliefs that you are
lying about is pretty pathetic. That is what I have always found most
disappointing about the ID creationist scam. When the bait and switch
went down all there was, was denial. No IDiot had been interested in
the science or they would have demanded that the science be presented.

Ron Okimoto

[jillery]

On Sat, 12 May 2018 23:26:15 -0400, Ron Dean <"R. Dean"@gmail.com>
wrote:

Wow, you post a twofer, where you attack the motives of two separate
and divergent groups; Mormon missionaries and evolutionists. But
thank you for proving my point for me, that support for ID is alive
and well, even though its supporter never provided any scientific
evidence for it. Based on your reply above, they almost certainly
never will.

[RonO]

On 5/12/2018 10:26 PM, Ron Dean wrote:

You know what is really sad about this misdirection ploy? The Mormons
were the last group of IDiots that had the bait and switch run on them
by the Discovery Institute. They are IDiots for the same reason that
Dean is an IDiot (Hint: they are creationists). They wanted to teach
the science of ID in their public schools, but the Discovery Institute
ran the bait and switch on them when the Discovery Institute was putting
up the "best" of IDiocy in November. The "best" list that killed IDiocy
on TO in the last 6 months. You can't make this junk up.

Ron Okimoto

[Mark Isaak]

On 5/12/18 8:26 PM, Ron Dean wrote:
> On 5/12/2018 9:29 PM, jillery wrote:

>> [...]

>> ***********************************
>> <https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900018185/letter-evidence-for-gods-existence-is-everywhere.html>
>>
>>
>> <https://tinyurl.com/yak9lkg3>
>>
>> Religion is a very important, powerful aspect in a lot of people’s
>> lives. Everywhere we look we see acts of God — some big, some small.
>> For example, the world we live in today could not possibly just happen
>> by chance. The way everything works together and the balance between
>> all of the organisms on this planet was directly from the hands of
>> God. Miracles are another act of God that often have no scientific
>> explanation. There are so many things that happen in our day-to-day
>> lives that can be classified as miracles. There is little scientific
>> evidence to support any of these things, and yet they still happen. I
>> encourage all people to consider believing in a higher power,
>> regardless of what it is. There is far too much in this world that
>> can’t be explained by science to ultimately rule out the existence of
>> God.
>> ***************************************
>>
> This was written by a Mormon authority and published in a Mormon paper.
> I have learned over the years of dealing with Morman missionaries who
> frequented me when I lived in Utah. They act exactly like evolutionist
> when their religion is challenged or questioned by attacking and
> denouncing the inquirer.

Like you act, in short.

--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) curioustaxonomy (dot) net
"I think if we ever reach the point where we think we thoroughly
understand who we are and where we come from, we will have failed."
- Carl Sagan

[RonO]

So, this is really how intelligent design creationism is going to die on
TO. What does it mean when simply clearly stating what the evidence for
intelligent design is, makes the long time ID advocates run away in
denial, or claim that the "best" is not the best?

This is obviously why no intelligent design public school lesson plan
was ever produced, and why all the ID perps ever did was create
propaganda documents like the one that Glenn always puts up. They kept
claiming to have something to teach, but they never put up their list of
what could be taught. Such a list would have obviously ended the ID
political scam decades ago.

Intelligent design creationism was never what the intelligent design
creationists wanted it to be.

This is the intelligent design briefing packet for public school
educators that Glenn always puts up to claim that the ID perps claim to
have the ID science.

http://www.discovery.org/f/1453

Ron Okimoto

[RonO]

On 5/12/2018 8:29 PM, jillery wrote:

IDiots are still idiots. Glenn has started to go back to the Discovery
Institute ID scam outfit that has been running the bait and switch on
all IDiots that believed them for over 16 years. No one has ever gotten
the promised ID science, and Glenn can't bring himself to face the
"best" that IDiocy always was, and yet he can go back to the ID perps
and think that he is doing something. Beats me how that works in the
IDiot brain, but Kalk hasn't done it since the "best" came out of the
Discovery Institute over 6 months ago.

Glenn's recent thread if you can't believe that he would do something as
stupid as this:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/talk.origins/2jLUP6WGcO0/nL-0TMTXBQAJ

Ron Okimoto

[jillery]

On Tue, 12 Jun 2018 05:18:58 -0500, RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

>IDiots are still idiots. Glenn has started to go back to the Discovery
>Institute ID scam outfit that has been running the bait and switch on
>all IDiots that believed them for over 16 years. No one has ever gotten
>the promised ID science, and Glenn can't bring himself to face the
>"best" that IDiocy always was, and yet he can go back to the ID perps
>and think that he is doing something. Beats me how that works in the
>IDiot brain, but Kalk hasn't done it since the "best" came out of the
>Discovery Institute over 6 months ago.
>
>Glenn's recent thread if you can't believe that he would do something as
>stupid as this:
>
>https://groups.google.com/d/msg/talk.origins/2jLUP6WGcO0/nL-0TMTXBQAJ
>
>Ron Okimoto

My impression is Glenn is doing his best to determine how stupid he
can go.

[JTEM is my hero]

So I.D. was "Irreducible Stupidity" and yet
it still took you 30 years to beat it?

Wow, that's pathetic...






-- --

http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/83383029505

[RonO]

On 6/12/2018 11:28 PM, JTEM is my hero wrote:
>
> So I.D. was "Irreducible Stupidity" and yet
> it still took you 30 years to beat it?
>
> Wow, that's pathetic...

ID was always a loser it just took the creationist faction decades to
realize it. The ID perps could have put up the same list of their
"best" over 22 years ago when they started the intelligent design
creationist scam outfit.

Ron Okimoto
>
> -- --
>
> http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/83383029505
>

[RonO]

On 5/12/2018 7:46 PM, RonO wrote:

A note:
Glenn has started some type of weirdness, but he won't say that he is
still trying to support the intelligent design creationist scam. It
took him 6 months of running in denial, but he has started to go back to
the Discovery Institute ID perps for junk arguments that can't be
supported. I don't know why he would do that and not acknowledge the
"best" that the same ID perps have given him, but it seems to be all
that the IDiots can muster at this time.

Chordating thread:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/talk.origins/LHF0Kq8C-KI/X_-t83YqBQAJ

I've told him why this is bogus, but he just snips and runs and can't
face reality.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/talk.origins/LHF0Kq8C-KI/QTOm78ViAwAJ

Another one to attack:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/talk.origins/2jLUP6WGcO0/nL-0TMTXBQAJ

For some reason he thinks putting up junk that hasn't amounted to
anything in science for over a century is something worth doing, but he
doesn't say why he is doing it.

Why would anyone go back to the guys that have been lying to them about
the ID creationist scam for over 2 decades for junk arguments?

Kalk, Bill and Nyikos haven't done even this much in the last 6 months.
Dean and Pags seem to have stopped doing whatever they thought that they
were doing. This is what IDiocy is like on TO today.

Ron Okimoto

[RonO]

I should add that Kalk has gone back to the ID perps after 6 months of
running away in denial. Beats me what these guys think that they can
get there. You'd think that years of getting nothing would tell them
something, but obviously not.

Kalk thread:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/talk.origins/Hqbo-dngWL0/sJ8NZk9dAgAJ

Ron Okimoto