On Thursday, July 2, 2015 at 5:31:26 AM UTC+1, SortingItOut wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 1, 2015 at 3:11:28 PM UTC-5, someone wrote:
[snip]
> >
> >
> > I didn't feel with the earlier scenario that you had understood the point I was trying to making. So I changed it to make it harder for you not to understand the point. I'll change it slightly again here.
> >
> > In this harder to not-understand-the-point scenario, imagine you are in a box with an LED display which not display any symbol initially and then display either a "1" or a "0", go off again, and then display either a "1" or a "0", and then go off again. Imagine this on off cycle will happen several times. Imagine also that you are instructed to shout out "I'm in a blue box" if when the LED comes on it displays a "1" and shout out "I'm in a green box" if the LED comes on and it displays a "0". Imagine you don't know the colour of the box you are in, and that you are able to and do follow the instructions.
> >
> > Now imagine that unknown to you, what caused the LED to display a "0" or a "1" changed each time. Given that you wouldn't know what caused the LED to display a "0" or "1", would you agree that you weren't basing what you shouted out on what caused the LED to display a "0" or "1" each time?
>
> Yes. Agreed. Now what?
>
>
Well just to recap. You had tried to summarise my argument, and made the following attempt:
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1) There are two universes under consideration. One like ours where consciousness exists, and a zombie universe where consciousness doesn't (and can't) exist.
2) The two universes are not physically identical, but they follow the same laws of physics. I assume that at the very least, this means that in both universes, a NAND gate will function the same way.
3) Robot R10 lives in the "normal" universe and has a certain arrangement of NAND gates.
4) Robot R10Z lives in the zombie universe and also has a certain arrangement of NAND gates.
5) R10 and R10Z have identical arrangements of NAND gates, but are not physically identical, due to having different physical substrates. So, while the robots are not physically identical, their identical arrangements of NAND gates implies that their resulting processing of logic and sensory inputs is identical.
6) A conscious being can determine that it is NOT in a zombie universe because it experiences consciousness and thus can make that assessment. Humans can do this, as could a conscious robot if one could be constructed.
7) A non-conscious being cannot determine what universe it's in because it completely lacks any comprehension of what consciousness is.
Am I right so far?
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I pointed out that you weren't quite right
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Not quite.
Firstly with (1) it is correct to state that there are two universes being considered. The zombie universe, and the physical universe that it parodies. But just to be clear there is no suggestion that what we are experiencing is the type of physical universe that it parodies.
Then in (6) you suggest that if a robot was consciously experiencing, as those believing in the parodied (by the zombie universe) story of reality might think that it could tell it was not in the zombie universe. But the point is, how could it make any response based upon whether it was or wasn't in a zombie universe. Its response would just depend on the NAND gate arrangement and an arrangement where it states that it isn't in a zombie universe, and an arrangement where it states that it is a zombie universe would both be possible in either universe.
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At which point the poster(s) using the alias Burkhard suggested
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So? In that case it would give wrong answers in one and right answers in
the other. A badly adjusted thermostat will give you wrong readings.
That doesn't imply anything interesting about the existence of temperature.
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A bit later I had asked the poster(s) using the alias Burkhard
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So perhaps you could explain a bit further how you think the NAND gate arrangement can be said to be stating that it was not in a zombie universe *because* it was not in a zombie universe, considering that no matter which universe the NAND gate arrangement had been it it would always behave the same
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To which the poster(s) using the Burkhard alias replied:
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If the NANd arrangement responds independently from input, then it is a
crap device. Change in your story "consciousness" to "temperature" or
"height in cm of the nearest object" and you get the same outcomes.
It simply stops doing anything useful.
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Which takes us pretty much to the beginning of this thread (I was having problems with some of my posts getting through), and the post
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/talk.origins/2r0TBligpfw/WJfMAo-NfzQJ
Where I was asking Burkhard to explain how it would be suggested that the settings of one or more of the switches would reflect a measurement of whether it is a zombie universe or not before going onto discuss whether that would imply that the NAND gate arrangement was behaving the way it was *because* of the reality of whether it was a zombie universe or not, or simply because of the input state (which could be set that way for a totally different reason).
Burkhard didn't reply, and instead when I'd decided to go expand a bit on just how big the problem facing the atheist evolutionary believers was
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/talk.origins/2r0TBligpfw/kJG7kM-_9ykJ
Burkhard then replied to that, skipping out giving any reply as to how it was being suggested that the inputs could be a measurement of whether it was a zombie universe or not, and concentrating on the issue of whether, if it was, the NAND gate arrangement could be said to be basing its behaviour on it being so. And I was using analogies to illustrate that even if the measurement was somehow a measurement of whether it was a zombie universe or not, the arrangement wouldn't be basing its response on that. At this point it would seem that you'd have conceded by analogy that it wouldn't matter whether the inputs to the NAND gate arrangement were a measurement of whether it was a zombie universe or not. The NAND gate arrangement being analogous to you in the box, where you conceded that you wouldn't be basing your behaviour on what caused the input (maybe it was a camera that would cause the LED to display a "0" if the box was blue, and the LED to display a "1" if the box was green). So it seems like a dead-end for you even if you could imagine a way of the input reflecting whether it was a zombie universe or not (maybe get a human being to set it).
So where you want to go from here is up to you. If you wish to abandon the attempt to suggest it would matter whether the inputs to the NAND gate arrangement represented whether it was a zombie universes or not (and given the point that you've just conceded I'm not sure where you'd go), then perhaps you'd care to explain either:
1) How the NAND gate arrangement could make a response based on whether it was or wasn't in a zombie universe, given that its response would just depend on how the NAND gates were arranged and their state and inputs, which could be mirrored in the zombie universe.
or
2) Explain the significant difference between a human being and a NAND gate arrangement which allows us, but not the NAND gate arrangement, to respond to the reality of it not being a zombie universe.
Some have attempted to try to deny the possibility of a zombie universe, presumably with the idea that somehow it makes a difference whether or not a zombie universe could exist or not, though really it is just a device that parodies their story. If you do wish to go down this line though there would be the question of why in your story a different physical thing, in a different universe, which can also function as an arrangement of NAND gates, couldn't differ in its physical properties and not be conscious. This is where the poster under the alias Inez went with it, and I'm still awaiting her response (see
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/talk.origins/VJMS6crS9AU/eK-CRm9YFZ0J)
So up to you where you want to go from here, perhaps answer (1) or (2)?
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