Atheists on Atheism
Tom P
atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their atheist
movement.
I just thought that atheists wouldn't mind at all if I quoted and posted
some of the leading atheists in world history. Incidentally, three of the
atheists I quote here became heads of governments during the 20th century,
and actually applied their atheist ideals and goals to the populations of
these modern nation states.
There are lots more where these came from. And even more in the various
"Collected Works" of these world famous atheists. Atheists were never shy
or bashful concerning their objectives. They just came right out and said
it.
I deliberately found a public source for these documents. These quotations
may be reproduced and freely distributed with the only caveat being that
credit must be given for the source, which is the Marxists Internet Archive
at http://www.marxists.org/. I quote from this site at
http://www.marxists.org/: "All material within these Archives, unless noted
otherwise, is public domain. MIA created material is protected by the
Creative Commons License." So please give credit where credit is due if you
repost or reproduce these. Thank you. Happy reading.
"Communism begins from the outset with atheism . . ." (Karl Marx, "Private
Property and Communism" in Marx: Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of
1844: Private Property and Communism." Trans. Martin Mulligan. Moscow:
Progress Publishers, 1959.) Available at: http://www.marxists.org/archive/
"There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that
are common to all states of society. But Communism abolishes eternal truths,
it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on
a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical
experience." Karl Marx and Frederich Engels, "The Manifesto of the
Communist Party," in Marx/Engels, "Selected Works," Volume One. Trans.:
Samuel Moore. Moscow: Progress Publishers, , pp. 98-137. Available at:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/
"The point is, therefore, to be more radical than everybody else as far as
atheism is concerned. Fortunately it is easy enough to be an atheist today."
And then later in the same essay: "This much is sure: the only service that
can be rendered to God today is to declare atheism a compulsory article of
faith and to outdo Bismarck's Kirchenkulturkampf laws by prohibiting
religion generally...." Frederick Engels. "Emigrant Literature II," 1874,
in "Marx and Engels On Religion." trans. Andy Blunden. Moscow: Progress
Publishers, 1957. Available at: http://www.marxists.org/archive/
"The philosophical basis of Marxism, as Marx and Engels repeatedly declared,
is dialectical materialism, which has fully taken over the historical
traditions of eighteenth-century materialism in France and of Feuerbach
(first half of the nineteenth century) in Germany-a materialism which is
absolutely atheistic and positively hostile to all religion." (From V. I.
Lenin, "The Attitude of the Workers' Party to Religion." Originally
published in "Proletary," No. 45, May 13 (26), 1900. Published according to
the text in Proletary. Source: Lenin, "Collected Works." Moscow:
Progress Publishers, 1973, Volume 15, pages 402-413. Available at:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin
"Our Programme is based entirely on the scientific, and moreover the
materialist, world-outlook. An explanation of our Programme, therefore,
necessarily includes an explanation of the true historical and economic
roots of the religious fog. Our propaganda necessarily includes the
propaganda of atheism; the publication of the appropriate scientific
literature, which the autocratic feudal government has hitherto strictly
forbidden and persecuted, must now form one of the fields of our Party
work." V. I. Lenin' "Socialism and Religion," Novaya Zhizn, No. 28,
December 3, 1905. Signed: N. Lenin. Published according to the text in
Novaya Zhizn. Source: Lenin Collected Works, Progress Publishers, 1965,
Moscow, Volume 10, pages 83-87. Available at:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin
"Dialectical materialism is the world outlook of the Marxist-Leninist party.
It is called dialectical materialism because its approach to the phenomena
of nature, its method of studying and apprehending them, is dialectical,
while its interpretation of the phenomena of nature, its conception of these
phenomena, its theory, is materialistic." J. V. Stalin, "Dialectical and
Historical Materialism." September 1938. Available at
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/
"Historical materialism is the extension of the principles of dialectical
materialism to the study of social life, an application of the principles of
dialectical materialism to the phenomena of the life of society, to the
study of society and of its history." J. V. Stalin, "Dialectical and
Historical Materialism." September 1938. Available at
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/
"Contrary to idealism, which denies the possibility of knowing the world and
its laws, which does not believe in the authenticity of our knowledge, does
not recognize objective truth, and holds that the world is full of
'things-in-themselves' that can never be known to science, Marxist
philosophical materialism holds that the world and its laws are fully
knowable, that our knowledge of the laws of nature, tested by experiment and
practice, is authentic knowledge having the validity of objective truth, and
that there are no things in the world which are unknowable, but only things
which are as yet not known, but which will be disclosed and made known by
the efforts of science and practice." J. V. Stalin, "Dialectical and
Historical Materialism." September 1938.
Available at http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/
"The history of science furnishes man with proof of the material nature of
the world and of the fact that it is governed by laws and helps man to see
the futility of the illusions of religion and idealism and to arrive at
materialist conclusions." Mao Zedong, "Dialectical materialism-notes of
lectures"as published in K'ang-chan ta-hsueh, nos. 6 to 8, April to June
1938. Available at
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/.
"Marx, Engels and Lenin all explained materialist dialectics as the theory
of development." Mao Zedong, "Dialectical materialism-notes of lectures"as
published in K'ang-chan ta-hsueh, nos. 6 to 8, April to June 1938.
Available at
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/.
"Dialectical materialism's theory of movement is in opposition first of all
with philosophical idealism and with the theological concepts of religion.
The fundamental nature of all philosophical idealism and religious theology
derives from their denial of the unity and material nature of the world; and
in imagining that the movement and development of the world takes place
apart from matter, or took place at least in the beginning apart from
matter, and is the result of the action of spirit, God, or divine forces."
Mao Zedong, "Dialectical materialism-notes of lectures"as published in
K'ang-chan ta-hsueh, nos. 6 to 8, April to June 1938. Available at
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/.
Niels van der Linden
> some of the leading atheists in world history.
Nice projection, theist.
Atheists don't have leaders. Just like a-santa-ists.
Your 'morals'-by-threat are the worst kind.
Here is some of your religion's history:
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/dark-age.htm
Science doesn't burn people for the sake of disagreeing.
Fuck off with your death cult.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
--
Niels
Alt.Atheist #2237
"The thing that saved me was Upanishads; Hinduism. Where you have
practically the same mythology [as Roman Catholicism], but it has been
intellectually interpreted. Say, already in the 9th century BC the Hindus
realized that all the deities are projections of psychological powers and
they are within you not out there [points away]."
-Joseph Campbell in The Hero's Journey
Mark K. Bilbo
into the room and exclaimed:
> Following
...is the same old "atheism = communism" crap.
Yawn.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
The Da Clayton Code
"Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
> Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing their
> atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
> necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their atheist
> movement.
Get yourself a second grade education, retard. Atheism and communism aren't
the same thing and you're making a massive fool of yourself by trying to
infer it!!
<plonk>
Richo
Tom P wrote:
> Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing their
> atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
> necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their atheist
> movement.
<snip>
Yeah. And?
What do you canclude from any of this?
"Therefore God exists (Tom's particular version of course)"?
Sorry that doesn't work - try something else.
Also - I am not interested in anyones "atheist" movement.
I am not a member or supporter of any atheist movement and I doubt very
much I ever will be.
Mark.
Greywolf
"Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
>communist at heart? Gee, that was very "Christian" of you.
I guess the next thing you'll tell us is that all atheists are unpatriotic
and that we all ought to get up and move to mother Russia as well. Aye?
Greywolf
Ash
> Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing their
> atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
> necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their atheist
> movement.
>
> I just thought that atheists wouldn't mind at all if I quoted and posted
> some of the leading atheists in world history. Incidentally, three of the
> atheists I quote here became heads of governments during the 20th century,
> and actually applied their atheist ideals and goals to the populations of
> these modern nation states.
>
Hellbound Alleee
Bill
He shows Marxists/Communists as typical atheist which is a gross distortion
of the truth.
Marxism/Communism are and were political ideologies - NOT religious beliefs.
Atheism neither supports or encourages these political ideologies.
Atheism is NOT a political belief, it is a lack of belief in God myths.
"Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
Mark K. Bilbo
burst into the room and exclaimed:
> Tom P wrote:
>> Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing
>> their atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is
>> the necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their
>> atheist movement.
> <snip>
>
> Yeah. And?
> What do you canclude from any of this? "Therefore God exists (Tom's
Absolutively! It's like:
1. There are bad people.
2. Some bad people didn't believe what I believe.
3. Therefore, god exists!
Tom P
"Niels van der Linden" <n.f.l.van...@student.utwente.nl> wrote in
message news:dbhevl$t18$1...@netlx020.civ.utwente.nl...
> > I just thought that atheists wouldn't mind at all if I quoted and posted
> > some of the leading atheists in world history.
>
> Nice projection, theist.
>
atheism in their own words. Why? What exactly bothers you?
Is it the fact that these men I quoted were atheists?
Are you ashamed to share your atheistic beliefs with Marx, Engels, Lenin,
Stalin, and Mao?
Anyway, why criticize me? I didn't write that stuff. Real live atheists
did. And I noted that you never attacked the accuracy of the quotations I
posted. If they were not accurate, I am confident you would have screamed
bloody murder. So I will presume you agree that the quotations are true and
accurate as posted.
> Atheists don't have leaders. Just like a-santa-ists.
>
Where did I claim atheists had leaders? I don't see where I used the word
leader in this post, but I could have missed it. Can you point out to me
where I even used the word "leader"? I used "world famous" to describe the
atheists who wrote these words. Can you honestly state you have not heard
of the men I quoted? I also used the term "head of government. But that is
just a recitation of facts. Lenin, Stalin, and Mao were indeed atheists and
indeed they were heads of the governments of their countries. How can
anyone dispute those facts?
> Your 'morals'-by-threat are the worst kind.
>
To what do you refer?
Seeing as certain of these atheists I quoted were responsible for over 100
million murders between 1917 and 1976, I must admit your implication of
superior ethical conduct and morality by atheists seems a bit of a stretch.
And that figure of over100 million murders in 59 years is a low estimate,
and is also far greater than all of the murders by Christians since
Christianity was founded about 1950 years ago.
> Here is some of your religion's history:
> http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/dark-age.htm
>
Nice try. But that has nothing to do with the subject of my post. That
subject was atheists on atheism. I did nothing but quote world famous
atheists. What does the existence, or not, of Jesus have to do with
atheists writing about their views on atheism?
> Science doesn't burn people for the sake of disagreeing.
>
Again, that may or may not be true, but it has nothing to do with atheists
writing about their atheism.
Who said science did anything? Are you equating science with atheism? You
are in august company. So did Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao, Stalin and a couple
dozen atheist mass murderers I can name.
Besides, science never did anything. Scientists did a whole lot of things.
Just as Christianity never murdered or tortured anyone, not even a single
person. Christians did to millions. Atheism never committed mass murder on
the most prolific scale in history. Atheists did. Is that distinction too
subtle for you?
> Fuck off with your death cult.
>
Now that isn't nice. Why would you insult me for posting the words of
atheists on the atheism they practiced and evangelized? I would never
insult you like that no matter what you posted about theists.
> http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
I think I can match every murder, every instance of torture, and every
atrocity listed on that web page or any other litany of Judeo-Christian
murders throughout history with an atrocity and murder committed by an
atheist since the late 18th century. Care to make such a list? Ever read
some of the orders of the atheist Trotsky and the atheist Dzherzhinsky
during the Lenin regime? The difference between the ones I can list and
those on that page is that the atrocities by atheists all occurred during
the modern period and are better documented. Many, if not most, of those
listed at http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html are obviously
allegorical. Geez . . .
May I ask a question, please? Why do so many atheists, and I include you in
this generalization, presume that everyone you correspond with is a
fundamentalist who believes in the absolute literalness and inerrancy of the
entire bible? Not even a substantial number of Christians believe that.
But apparently most atheists make that assumption. Can you really not tell
the difference between allegory, fable, parable, and history?
> --
>
> Niels
>
> Alt.Atheist #2237
>
> "The thing that saved me was Upanishads; Hinduism. Where you have
> practically the same mythology [as Roman Catholicism], but it has been
> intellectually interpreted. Say, already in the 9th century BC the Hindus
> realized that all the deities are projections of psychological powers and
> they are within you not out there [points away]."
> -Joseph Campbell in The Hero's Journey
>
Sure you cited that properly? Wasn't that in an interview with Bill Moyers
in "The Power of Myth"?
>
Steve Knight
wrote:
>Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing their
>atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
>necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their atheist
>movement.
What you superstitious can't seem to grasp is, no matter how you
need reassurance of your delusion, we are not cattle like you. We
don't follow the smelliest bull *just because.
Touting out all these atheist *authority figures is a study in cat
herding.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
Christopher A. Lee
wrote:
>
>"Niels van der Linden" <n.f.l.van...@student.utwente.nl> wrote in
>message news:dbhevl$t18$1...@netlx020.civ.utwente.nl...
>> > I just thought that atheists wouldn't mind at all if I quoted and posted
>> > some of the leading atheists in world history.
>>
>> Nice projection, theist.
>>
>So you do object if someone posts the words of atheists describing their
>atheism in their own words. Why? What exactly bothers you?
>
>Is it the fact that these men I quoted were atheists?
>
>Are you ashamed to share your atheistic beliefs with Marx, Engels, Lenin,
>Stalin, and Mao?
What "Atheistic beliefs", liar?
What part of ALL AN ATHEIST IS, IS SOMEBODY WHO ISN'T THEIST; IT'S A
LABEL FOR WHAT SOMEBODY *I*S*N*'*T* are you still pretending not to
understand?
And that is *A*L*L* any atheists have in common.
>Anyway, why criticize me? I didn't write that stuff. Real live atheists
>did. And I noted that you never attacked the accuracy of the quotations I
>posted. If they were not accurate, I am confident you would have screamed
>bloody murder. So I will presume you agree that the quotations are true and
>accurate as posted.
Why are so mny of you theists such bigoted, nasty, ignorant, stupid
idiots? And so in-you-face with it?
raven1
wrote:
>
>Are you ashamed to share your atheistic beliefs with Marx, Engels, Lenin,
>Stalin, and Mao
How do you feel about sharing your theistic beliefs with Torquemada
and Hitler?
---
"This is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause"
- Padme Amidala, Episode III
Tom P
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:ybidnfdrSK0...@megapath.net...
> In episode <42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com>, Tom P burst
> into the room and exclaimed:
>
> > Following
>
> ...is the same old "atheism = communism" crap.
>
> Yawn.
>
mean you acknowledge their accuracy and truth?
Tom P
"Richo" <m.rich...@utas.edu.au> wrote in message
news:1121731769....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Tom P wrote:
> > Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing
their
> > atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
> > necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their
atheist
> > movement.
> <snip>
>
> Yeah. And?
> What do you canclude from any of this?
Well, actually, I conclude that Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao were
atheists, and that they believed that atheism was central to their world
view and their program of reforming the world through violent revolution.
Heck, they said so. Not me. I didn't make that stuff up.
I note you did not challenge the accuracy of the quotations. That must mean
you believe they are accurate and true. See, we agree on something already.
> "Therefore God exists (Tom's particular version of course)"?
No, just that the 5 men I quoted were atheists. Those quotations have no
bearing at all on the matter of whether God does or does not exist. Why
would you think those quotes do have anything to do with the existence of
God?
> Sorry that doesn't work - try something else.
>
> Also - I am not interested in anyones "atheist" movement.
Golly, we agree on something else. I am not interested in anyone's atheist
movement either.
> I am not a member or supporter of any atheist movement and I doubt very
> much I ever will be.
>
Well, good for you! I'm not either. Three things we agree on. See, we
don't have to be enemies, do we?
> Mark.
>
DanielSan
> "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
> news:ybidnfdrSK0...@megapath.net...
>
>>In episode <42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com>, Tom P burst
>>into the room and exclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>Following
>>
>>...is the same old "atheism = communism" crap.
>>
>>Yawn.
>>
>
> You did not challenge the truth or accuracy of the quotations. Does that
> mean you acknowledge their accuracy and truth?
>
Possibly because there's no truth to the quotations at all?
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, *
* the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they *
* have few followers now." Arthur C. Clarke *
****************************************************
Tom P
"The Da Clayton Code" <cj...@SPAMBLOCKphonymails.com> wrote in message
news:42dc433d$0$2871$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
atheists. Do you think they were not atheists? Do you challenge the
accuracy of the quotations?
> <plonk>
>
>
Tom P
"Greywolf" <grey...@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:11dohvt...@corp.supernews.com...
sarcastic to me.
Why are you so offended just because I posted some quotes from some of the
most famous atheists in human history?
Are you ashamed to be associated with those 5 atheists I quoted from?
Tom P
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
> In episode <1121731769....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Richo
> burst into the room and exclaimed:
>
> > Tom P wrote:
> >> Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing
> >> their atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism
is
> >> the necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their
> >> atheist movement.
> > <snip>
> >
> > Yeah. And?
> > What do you canclude from any of this? "Therefore God exists (Tom's
>
> Absolutively! It's like:
>
> 1. There are bad people.
> 2. Some bad people didn't believe what I believe.
> 3. Therefore, god exists!
>
Gosh, where in the world do you get those conclusions from?
Those quotations from those 5 atheists have nothing to do with the existence
of gods. They are just accurate quotations from 5 men who were atheists
discussing the central place atheism had in their world view and their
program of reforming the world through violent revolution. That was pretty
plain to me. What do any of those quotes have to do with God? I am afraid
you lost me there.
Tom P
"Ash" <asha...@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dbhhge$1ut$2...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Why do I need a reason?
If you insist upon a reason, how about this one? Exercising my
constitutional right to freedom of expression.
DanielSan
As is your assumption that atheism is a "group with leaders."
>
> Why are you so offended just because I posted some quotes from some of the
> most famous atheists in human history?
Fame is irrelevant. Atheism is not a group. Sorry, but Marx, Stalin,
Pol Pot, etc, were not famous due to their atheism.
> Are you ashamed to be associated with those 5 atheists I quoted from?
I'm not. Are you ashamed to be associated with the following?
"The world will not help, the people must help themselves. Its own
strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us
to use; that in it and through it, we may wage the battle of our life
The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty -
of Him who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands
the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward."
- Adolf Hitler
How about:
"If you see that your neighbors are wearing clean and fancy clothes on
Saturdays, they are Jews. If they clean their houses on Fridays and
light candles earlier than usual on that night, they are Jews. If they
eat unleavened bread and begin their meal with celery and lettuce during
Holy Week, they are Jews. If they say prayers facing a wall, bowing back
and forth, they are Jews." - Tomas de Torquemada
I bet you feel really ashamed with:
"In the third place, they [the Jews] are very conceited because God
spoke with them and issued them the law of Moses on Mount Sinai. Here we
arrive at the right spot, here God really has to let himself be
tortured, here he must listens they tire him with their songs and
praises because he hallowed them withhis holy law, set them apart from
other nations, and led them out of Egypt." - Martin Luther
Want more shame? I'm sure I can feed the persecution complex of yours
with more quotes from religious people.
Tom P
"Bill" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:E4YCe.46385$ag7....@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> An all too typical Christian's distortion of the truth.
>
accurately reproduced? Did I leave out words? I tried not to, but I could
very well have made a mistake. Please, do correct my work if you believe it
is not accurate.
> He shows Marxists/Communists as typical atheist which is a gross
distortion
> of the truth.
>
How is the world could I do that by accurately quoting 5 world famous
atheists? I didn't make up those words. Atheists did. I don't believe I
made any reference at all to a "typical atheist" or a typical anything. Did
I use the word typical at all? I can't find it. Can you help me out here?
> Marxism/Communism are and were political ideologies - NOT religious
beliefs.
>
Gosh, did I say that Marxism or Communism were not political ideologies?
Did I say that Marxism or Communism were religious beliefs? Please, can you
show me where I did that?
I am not responsible for the words in the quotations. They were written by
atheists. If you disagree with your fellow atheists, may I suggest you take
it up with them?
> Atheism neither supports or encourages these political ideologies.
>
But the atheists I quoted disagree with you. All five of them claimed (many
times) that "communism began with atheism" (Marx, full citation below.)
Your argument is with the atheist Karl Marx.
> Atheism is NOT a political belief, it is a lack of belief in God myths.
>
I just reproduced the words of men who were atheists. You never challenged
the accuracy of the quotations, so I presume you agree they were accurate.
Your quarrel is with them, your fellow atheists, not me.
Tom P
"Hellbound Alleee" <afrpenn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121733336.1...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.graveyardofthegods.org/whyevil/kill.html
>
Nothing there has anything to do with the quotations I posted. They were
accurate. They were true. And the fact that you failed to challenge them
is a sure indication they are true.
And nothing at www.graveyardofthegods.org/whyevil/kill.html has any bearing
at all on the words of the men I quoted.
Besides, I have never said atheism killed anyone. Neither did Christianity.
Christians murdered tens of millions. Atheists murdered tens of millions.
It just didn't take the atheists as long to murder more people. And that's a
fact. And not even all the intellectual and verbal gymnastics and nonsense
at www.graveyardofthegods.org/whyevil/kill.html changes those hard facts.
DanielSan
> "Bill" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:E4YCe.46385$ag7....@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>
>>An all too typical Christian's distortion of the truth.
>>
>
> What part of any of those quotations is a distortion?
That it's not atheism that is at work here. Unless, of course, you
believe that Hitler massacred the Jews because he was being a good
Christian...
Daniel T.
"Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> wrote:
> Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing their
> atheism...
Your statement above is false. None of the statements below describe
atheism.
> "Communism begins from the outset with atheism . . ." (Karl Marx, "Private
> Property and Communism" in Marx: Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of
> 1844: Private Property and Communism." Trans. Martin Mulligan. Moscow:
> Progress Publishers, 1959.) Available at: http://www.marxists.org/archive/
This is not a description of atheism.
> "There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that
> are common to all states of society. But Communism abolishes eternal truths,
> it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on
> a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical
> experience." Karl Marx and Frederich Engels, "The Manifesto of the
> Communist Party," in Marx/Engels, "Selected Works," Volume One. Trans.:
> Samuel Moore. Moscow: Progress Publishers, , pp. 98-137. Available at:
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/
Atheism isn't even mentioned in the above, that is not a description of
atheism either.
> "The point is, therefore, to be more radical than everybody else as far as
> atheism is concerned. Fortunately it is easy enough to be an atheist today."
> And then later in the same essay: "This much is sure: the only service that
> can be rendered to God today is to declare atheism a compulsory article of
> faith and to outdo Bismarck's Kirchenkulturkampf laws by prohibiting
> religion generally...." Frederick Engels. "Emigrant Literature II," 1874,
> in "Marx and Engels On Religion." trans. Andy Blunden. Moscow: Progress
> Publishers, 1957. Available at: http://www.marxists.org/archive/
Again, no description of atheism mentioned
Nope, no description of atheism in any of the above.
--
Magic depends on tradition and belief. It does not welcome observation,
nor does it profit by experiment. On the other hand, science is based
on experience; it is open to correction by observation and experiment.
MJSD
> Why are you so offended just because I posted some quotes from some of
> the most famous atheists in human history?
Scary quotes by famous Christians:
"The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil
to keep Christians from running their own country."
- Rev. Jerry Falwell, Sermon, July 4, 1976
"[We seek to] replace the heresy of democracy with Biblical law." (R. J.
Rushdoony, founder of the Chalcedon Foundation)
“I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you
to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good. Our goal is a
Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to
conquer this country. We don’t want equal time. We don’t want
pluralism.”
- Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue quoted in The News-
Sentinel, 8-16-93
"I want to be invisible . . . I paint my face and travel at night. You
don't know it's over until you're in a body bag. You don't know until
election night."
Ralph Reed, Director of the Christian Coalition, from the Virginian Pilot
and Ledger Star, 11/9/91.
"Today we are engaged in a final, all-out battle between communistic
atheism and Christianity."
- Sen. Joseph McCarthy, in his famous address to the Ohio County Women's
Republican Club on February 9, 1950
“It is quite unlawful to demand, defend, or to grant unconditional
freedom of thought, or speech, of writing or worship, as if these were so
many rights given by nature to man.”
- Pope Leo XIII, “Great Encyclical Letters” (p.16)
"The false witness born during World War II with respect to Germany is
especially notable and revealing. The charge is repeatedly made that six
million innocent Jews were slain by the Nazis, and the figure--and even
larger figures--is now entrenched in the history books."
(R.J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law [Nutley, NJ: Craig Press,
1973], pp. 586, 588)
"Communism was the brain-child of German-Jewish intellectuals."( Pat
Robertson, in The New World Order, (1991), p.17)
"Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator.
By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
"In the 1990s and beyond, the battle is not going to be fought much
longer between Christianity and atheistic humanism, but between
Christianity and satanic-inspired Eastern religions." (Pat Robertson)
"There is on earth among all dangers no more dangerous thing than a
richly endowed and adroit reason...Reason must be deluded, blinded, and
destroyed." (Martin Luther)
"Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his
reason." (Martin Luther)
GoDrex
"Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:42dc63dc$0$22361$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
but what are you trying to express?
Wayne Delia
> Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing their
> atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
> necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their atheist
> movement.
Following are the words of Christ on Christianity, and the criteria
people must meet in order to be a follower of His.
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife
and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot
be my disciple." (Luke 14:26, NIV)
Either Tom P is not a Christian, or else (necessarily) Tom P hates his
family and himself.
I'm an atheist, so I'm not forced to hate my family.
Double-edged sword, innit?
--
Wayne Delia, w...@deliafamily.net
Delta Iota Chapter Advisor, Phi Kappa Sigma at Marist College
"Don't eat me! I have a wife and kids! Eat them!" (Homer Simpson)
Mark K. Bilbo
Oh give it a rest okay? Your agenda's obvious to everybody here, you're
not going to fool anybody with your "why whatever do you mean?" game.
Atheism is merely the lack of belief in any gods. Do tell how that can
hold a "central place" in any world view...
Mark K. Bilbo
into the room and exclaimed:
> "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
> news:ybidnfdrSK0...@megapath.net...
>> In episode <42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com>, Tom P burst
>> into the room and exclaimed:
>>
>> > Following
>>
>> ...is the same old "atheism = communism" crap.
>>
>> Yawn.
>>
> You did not challenge the truth or accuracy of the quotations. Does that
> mean you acknowledge their accuracy and truth?
You don't get it.
I. Don't. Care.
So you can find some stupid things said by stupid people who stupidly
asserted stupidity in the name of "atheism." Big frakking deal. You can
find idiots and cranks everywhere. What of it?
Mark K. Bilbo
and exclaimed:
> Tom P wrote:
>> "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
>> news:ybidnfdrSK0...@megapath.net...
>>
>>>In episode <42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com>, Tom P burst
>>>into the room and exclaimed:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Following
>>>
>>>...is the same old "atheism = communism" crap.
>>>
>>>Yawn.
>>>
>>>
>> You did not challenge the truth or accuracy of the quotations. Does
>> that mean you acknowledge their accuracy and truth?
>>
>>
> Possibly because there's no truth to the quotations at all?
And who cares?
So there are idiots who say stupid things? Wow. Call CNN!
Mark K. Bilbo
into the room and exclaimed:
>
Until you can show how *lacking a belief can be a motivator of action, you
have no point.
Christianity *is a motivation for action. Atheism is simply not believing
in gods. Now what does *not believing in something motivate me to do?
And while you're at it, what does *not believing in all the gods *you
don't believe in motivate *you to do?
Mark K. Bilbo
into the room and exclaimed:
>
Yawn.
Newsgroups are carried on private systems. There is no censorship where no
government is party. This is a nonstarter.
R. Pierce Butler
$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com:
Why did you choose quotations from sick meglamaniacal self proclaimed
athesists only? Why did you not choose quotes from the rest that are
reasonable people that want nothing but good for their fellow man both now
and in the future? Why did you not choose writings from people like Steven
Hawking, Marie Curie, Carl Sagan just to name a few notable scientists.
There are many authors, statesmen, artists, musicians, etc., of note that
you could have chosen
I believe that you are trying to pain a picture that is is false, one-
sided, and deceitful. In doing so you are being dishonest and furthermore I
charge that you knew it was dishonest therefore you are a liar. You must
be a Christian because you act like most of the Chritians that post here or
that I know....lying, deceitful, and arrogant.
You have been exposed for the bigoted liar that you are so feel free to
leave anytime.
With dishonesty the likes that has just been shown by Tom P., is it any
wonder I am an atheist?
Can you feel that Jesus love and decency?
rj
Mark K. Bilbo
into the room and exclaimed:
>
No matter how many times you say this, I am not in any way "associated"
with those people.
Period.
Mark K. Bilbo
into the room and exclaimed:
> Anyway, why criticize me?
Because of your agenda. And you do have one. You're not fooling anybody.
Wayne Delia
> "Niels van der Linden" <n.f.l.van...@student.utwente.nl> wrote in
> message news:dbhevl$t18$1...@netlx020.civ.utwente.nl...
>
>>>some of the leading atheists in world history.
>>
>>
> So you do object if someone posts the words of atheists describing their
> atheism in their own words. Why? What exactly bothers you?
I'm sure you won't object if I post the words of Jesus Christ describing
the criteria for people to be followers of his. That's Christianity in
Christ's own words.
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife
and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot
be my disciple." (Luke 14:26, NIV)
So, assuming you think you're a Christian, do you really hate your
family and yourself? What's it like to carry around so much hate? I
hope, for the sake of your family, that you don't have a family.
> Is it the fact that these men I quoted were atheists?
Well, the guy I quoted was Jesus Christ. Do you necessarily follow every
one of His commandments, or are you a pretend Christian wanna-be?
> Are you ashamed to share your atheistic beliefs with Marx, Engels, Lenin,
> Stalin, and Mao?
Are you ashamed to share your Christian beliefs with Jesus Christ?
> Anyway, why criticize me?
Because you're a retard who thinks "atheism = communism."
> I didn't write that stuff. Real live atheists
> did.
Do you have any idea of the incredible lunacy that "real live
Christians" have written? Would it be fair to hold you personally
accountable for it, assuming you are a legitimate family-and-self-hating
Christian?
> And I noted that you never attacked the accuracy of the quotations I
> posted.
However, I'm sure you will attack the accuracy of Luke 14:26, since it's
highly inconvenient for you to live your life constantly hating yourself
and hating your family.
> If they were not accurate, I am confident you would have screamed
> bloody murder. So I will presume you agree that the quotations are true and
> accurate as posted.
Similarly, I've given the Bible version and exact verse of the Gospel of
Luke in which Jesus tells you to hate your family and yourself if you
want to be considered a follower of His. I, too, will presume you agree
that the quotation is true and accurate as posted.
>>Atheists don't have leaders. Just like a-santa-ists.
>>
> Where did I claim atheists had leaders?
Do you have an attention deficit problem or something? Here are your own
words from less than two hours before writing this post.
"I just thought that atheists wouldn't mind at all if I quoted and
posted some of the leading atheists in world history. Incidentally,
three of the atheists I quote here became heads of governments during
the 20th century, and actually applied their atheist ideals and goals to
the populations of these modern nation states."
If the quotes are from atheists who are not our leaders, then the whole
thing is pointless and stupid: I can quote-mine from "leading
Christians" some lunacy that even you'd be ashamed of. Would you feel
responsible for supporting their wild-ass theories 100%? If not, then
wouldn't my hypothetical post serve no purpose other than showing that
"leading Christians" can occasionally be assholes? That's how you're
coming across with your post.
> I don't see where I used the word
> leader in this post, but I could have missed it. Can you point out to me
> where I even used the word "leader"? I used "world famous" to describe the
> atheists who wrote these words.
You used "leading atheists."
> Can you honestly state you have not heard
> of the men I quoted?
Oh, I've heard of them, much as I'm sure you've heard of Jesus Christ.
> I also used the term "head of government. But that is
> just a recitation of facts. Lenin, Stalin, and Mao were indeed atheists and
> indeed they were heads of the governments of their countries. How can
> anyone dispute those facts?
Would it be completely off base if I referred to Jesus Christ as the
head of Christianity? So you'd have to follow His hate doctrine in Luke
14:26 if you actually consider yourself a follower of His.
>>Your 'morals'-by-threat are the worst kind.
>>
> To what do you refer?
The doctrine of "Worship my invisible sky-daddy, or He'll kick your ass."
R. Pierce Butler
news:postmaster-1F7EB...@news1.east.earthlink.net:
> In article <42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com>,
> "Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing
>> their atheism...
>
> Your statement above is false. None of the statements below describe
> atheism.
of course it is false. Tom is a liar.
>
>> "Communism begins from the outset with atheism . . ." (Karl Marx,
>> "Private Property and Communism" in Marx: Economic and Philosophical
>> Manuscripts of 1844: Private Property and Communism." Trans. Martin
>> Mulligan. Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1959.) Available at:
>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/
>
> This is not a description of atheism.
>
>> Available at http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/
>>
>> http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/
>>
>> Available at http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/
>>
>> http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/.
>>
>> http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/.
>>
>> http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/.
>
> Nope, no description of atheism in any of the above.
Tom is a liar and/or a troll looking for attention or a way to prove
atheists==bad people.
He knew what he was doing was deceitful and intellectually dishonest.
He is another duke but with a slightly higher IQ.
rj
Wayne Delia
> On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:59:22 -0500, "Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Are you ashamed to share your atheistic beliefs with Marx, Engels, Lenin,
>>Stalin, and Mao
>
> and Hitler?
I smell a "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy comin' right up....
Wayne Delia
> "Richo" <m.rich...@utas.edu.au> wrote in message
> news:1121731769....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
>>Tom P wrote:
>>
>>>Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing
>
> their
>
>>>atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
>>>necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their
>
> atheist
>
>>>movement.
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>Yeah. And?
>>What do you canclude from any of this?
>
>
> Well, actually, I conclude that Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao were
> atheists, and that they believed that atheism was central to their world
> view and their program of reforming the world through violent revolution.
> Heck, they said so. Not me. I didn't make that stuff up.
I conclude that Hitler was a Christian, and that he believed that
Christianity was central to his world view and his program of ridding
the world of Jews. Heck, he said so. Not me. I didn't make that stuff up.
> I note you did not challenge the accuracy of the quotations. That must mean
> you believe they are accurate and true. See, we agree on something already.
I can accurately quote from "Mein Kampf". Would that imply that you must
necessarily believe what is quoted in there is accurate and true?
Your equivocation is fairly transparent.
Wayne Delia
> Tom P wrote:
>
>> "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
>> news:ybidnfdrSK0...@megapath.net...
>>
>>> In episode <42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com>, Tom P burst
>>> into the room and exclaimed:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Following
>>>
>>>
>>> ...is the same old "atheism = communism" crap.
>>>
>>> Yawn.
>>>
>>
>> You did not challenge the truth or accuracy of the quotations. Does that
>> mean you acknowledge their accuracy and truth?
>>
>
> Possibly because there's no truth to the quotations at all?
His schtick tonight depends on "accurate quoting of belief quotations"
implies "the beliefs are accurate." It's a typical dodge.
Wayne Delia
> "Greywolf" <grey...@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
> news:11dohvt...@corp.supernews.com...
>>I guess the next thing you'll tell us is that all atheists are unpatriotic
>>and that we all ought to get up and move to mother Russia as well. Aye?
>>
>>Greywolf
>
> Why would I tell you that? Your suggestions seem terribly bizarre and
> sarcastic to me.
>
> Why are you so offended just because I posted some quotes from some of the
> most famous atheists in human history?
>
> Are you ashamed to be associated with those 5 atheists I quoted from?
I'm sure you're not ashamed to be associated with this Jesus Christ
fella, assuming you're a Christian, so you shouldn't be offended when I
conclude that you hate your family and yourself based on the criteria He
mentioned in Luke 14:26.
Wayne Delia
> "Ash" <asha...@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:dbhhge$1ut$2...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>any particular reason for doing so?
>
> Why do I need a reason?
>
> If you insist upon a reason, how about this one? Exercising my
> constitutional right to freedom of expression.
As am I, by pointing out that either you hate yourself and your family,
or else you do not qualify as a Christian according to Jesus Christ's
criteria given in Luke 14:26.
Pick one or the other, and let's see if we can help you with your
inevitable sociopathic problem resulting from either answer.
Wayne Delia
> Besides, I have never said atheism killed anyone. Neither did Christianity.
> Christians murdered tens of millions.
In the name of Christianity? Si.
> Atheists murdered tens of millions.
In the name of atheism? No.
There's a tiny bit of difference between the two. See if you can spot it.
Kate
wrote:
>
Expressing what? You seem afraid to state the conclusion you keep
implying.
If you have nothing to say except a bunch of unrelated irrelevant
quotes, you pretty much aren't worth bothering with.
Wayne Delia
"They weren't 'true Christians'." (Inevitable "No True Scotsman" logical
fallacy, right around the corner)
Wayne Delia
>>>any particular reason for doing so?
>>
>>Why do I need a reason?
>>
>>If you insist upon a reason, how about this one? Exercising my
>>constitutional right to freedom of expression.
>>
> but what are you trying to express?
It appears to me that he's too cowardly to specify it, but rather is
willing to let people read into it what they will (or what they prefer
to hear), such as identifying the authors as "leading atheists" and
letting people infer that the authors are therefore "atheist leaders"
spouting doctrine which, presumably, is necessarily held by anyone
identifying themselves as an atheist. That'll appeal to anyone holding
the opposite view, theism, and theists are aware how tightly they hold
to their own doctrine. What he's actually presented is nothing more than
Communism 101, which he is equivocating with atheism. Personally, I
don't need any leaders at all to disbelieve in gods of any kind. I just
chalk it up to a typical frustrated Christian blowhard who has had his
feelings hurt somewhere along the way, and is now loaded for bear with
nothing to aim at.
Ron Peterson
Tom P wrote:
> "Communism begins from the outset with atheism . . ." (Karl Marx, "Private
> Property and Communism" in Marx: Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of
> 1844: Private Property and Communism." Trans. Martin Mulligan. Moscow:
> Progress Publishers, 1959.) Available at: http://www.marxists.org/archive/
It would have helped if you would have included more of the text. Marx
goes on to say:
"but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism
is still mostly an abstraction.
The philanthropy of atheism is therefore at first only philosophical,
abstract philanthropy, and that of communism is at once real and
directly bent on action."
And, later on in the document:
"Atheism, as the denial of this unreality, has no longer any meaning,
for atheism is a negation of God, and postulates the existence of man
through this negation; but socialism as socialism no longer stands in
any need of such a mediation. ..."
--
Ron
Wayne Delia
> And while you're at it, what does *not believing in all the gods *you
> don't believe in motivate *you to do?
That is actually a very good insight: someone who fancies themselves a
devout Christian would qualify not only as an atheist with respect to
any other non-Christian god (lacking belief in any other non-Christian
god), but also as a strong atheist (holding a necessary belief that any
other non-Christian god does not exist). So, the characteristics of
atheism that Tom P presented in the mined quotes must necessarily apply
to his own lack of belief in the existance of non-Christian gods (and
presumably, belief that no non-Christian gods exist). We can therefore
infer the validity of the characteristics in the quotes from his own
behavior. If he ain't rapin' and pillagin' and burnin' and thievin' and
blasphemin', then that indicates the quotes regarding Marxism aren't as
applicable as he wants them to be to unbelievers.
DanielSan
> Tom P wrote:
>
>> Besides, I have never said atheism killed anyone. Neither did
>> Christianity.
>> Christians murdered tens of millions.
>
>
> In the name of Christianity? Si.
>
>> Atheists murdered tens of millions.
>
>
> In the name of atheism? No.
>
> There's a tiny bit of difference between the two. See if you can spot it.
>
I'm just trying to imagine the murderer who murders in the name of atheism.
"I..." <hack> "...do..." <slash> "...not..." <stab> "...believe..."
<crack> "...in..." <rip> "...gods...!"
Kinda silly, doncha think? Atheism is a passive entity; it has no
dogma; no doctrine; no precepts; nothing of the sort.
It's simply a lack of belief in gods.
Any action beyond that is not "in the name of atheism," anymore than
having brown hair is killing "in the name of brown-hairdedness."
However, religions of all shapes and flavors have been used as a tool
and a reason for putting forth mass murder, just like Marx, Stalin,
Lenin, et al had a reason: Communist-like Marxism, and Mao had Maoism.
Atheism, having no dogma/doctrine, is immune. :-)
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, *
* the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they *
* have few followers now." Arthur C. Clarke *
****************************************************
Wayne Delia
Exactly, and that's relatively common. He's too scared to announce his
conclusion, but the agenda is obvious. When people demonstrate him to be
wrong, the defense mechanisms go up: "But I never SAID that."
> If you have nothing to say except a bunch of unrelated irrelevant
> quotes, you pretty much aren't worth bothering with.
Exactly.
bob young
Tom P wrote:
> "Bill" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:E4YCe.46385$ag7....@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> > An all too typical Christian's distortion of the truth.
> >
> What part of any of those quotations is a distortion? Are the quotes not
> accurately reproduced? Did I leave out words? I tried not to, but I could
> very well have made a mistake. Please, do correct my work if you believe it
> is not accurate.
>
> > He shows Marxists/Communists as typical atheist which is a gross
> distortion
> > of the truth.
> >
> How is the world could I do that by accurately quoting 5 world famous
> atheists? I didn't make up those words. Atheists did. I don't believe I
> made any reference at all to a "typical atheist" or a typical anything. Did
> I use the word typical at all? I can't find it. Can you help me out here?
>
> > Marxism/Communism are and were political ideologies - NOT religious
> beliefs.
Here are some religous beliefs for you to ponder on:
Here the Catholic Church presents an instructive example. Clerical celibacy
forces the Church to recruit its priests not from their own ranks but
progressively from the masses of the people. Yet there are not many who
recognize the significance of celibacy in this relation. But therein lies
the cause of the inexhaustible vigour which characterizes that ancient
institution. For by thus unceasingly recruiting the ecclesiastical
dignitaries from the lower classes of the people, the Church is enabled not
only to maintain the contact of instinctive understanding with the masses of
the population but also to assure itself of always being able to draw upon
that fund of energy which is present in this form only among the popular
masses. Hence the surprising youthfulness of that gigantic organism, its
mental flexibility and its iron will-power. -
[Adolf Hitler, expressing his admiration for the Church, Mein Kampf, I, 2]
The dead in this war between more than seven Christian nations?
Over twenty million; and for WWI, ten million, [again Christian nations]
Your skull is so thick that no matter how many times people tell you that Mao
and Stalin worshipped Communism and were scared to death of any religion or
similar organisation that threatened their stranglehold on power, yuo will not
accept the fact.
I feel quite sure that in the Bronze Age folks would have killed those from a
neighbouring village if they tried to damage the carved wooden image of their
god of the time!
Bob
Humansit Brit.
Hong kong
We can keep from a child all knowledge of earlier myths, but we cannot take
from him the need for mythology.
[Carl Jung, 1912]
>
> >
> Gosh, did I say that Marxism or Communism were not political ideologies?
> Did I say that Marxism or Communism were religious beliefs? Please, can you
> show me where I did that?
>
> I am not responsible for the words in the quotations. They were written by
> atheists. If you disagree with your fellow atheists, may I suggest you take
> it up with them?
>
> > Atheism neither supports or encourages these political ideologies.
> >
> But the atheists I quoted disagree with you. All five of them claimed (many
> times) that "communism began with atheism" (Marx, full citation below.)
> Your argument is with the atheist Karl Marx.
>
> > Atheism is NOT a political belief, it is a lack of belief in God myths.
> >
> I just reproduced the words of men who were atheists. You never challenged
> the accuracy of the quotations, so I presume you agree they were accurate.
> Your quarrel is with them, your fellow atheists, not me.
>
> > "Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
> > > Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing
> their
> > > atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
> > > necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their
> atheist
> > > movement.
> > >
> > > I just thought that atheists wouldn't mind at all if I quoted and posted
> > > some of the leading atheists in world history. Incidentally, three of
> the
> > > atheists I quote here became heads of governments during the 20th
> century,
> > > and actually applied their atheist ideals and goals to the populations
> of
> > > these modern nation states.
> > >
> > > There are lots more where these came from. And even more in the various
> > > "Collected Works" of these world famous atheists. Atheists were never
> shy
> > > or bashful concerning their objectives. They just came right out and
> said
> > > it.
> > >
> > > I deliberately found a public source for these documents. These
> > > quotations
> > > may be reproduced and freely distributed with the only caveat being that
> > > credit must be given for the source, which is the Marxists Internet
> > > Archive
> > > at http://www.marxists.org/. I quote from this site at
> > > http://www.marxists.org/: "All material within these Archives, unless
> > > noted
> > > otherwise, is public domain. MIA created material is protected by the
> > > Creative Commons License." So please give credit where credit is due if
> > > you
> > > repost or reproduce these. Thank you. Happy reading.
> > >
> > > "Communism begins from the outset with atheism . . ." (Karl Marx,
> > > "Private
> > > Property and Communism" in Marx: Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts
> > > of
> > > 1844: Private Property and Communism." Trans. Martin Mulligan. Moscow:
> > > Progress Publishers, 1959.) Available at:
> > > http://www.marxists.org/archive/
> > >
m.rich...@utas.edu.au
Tom P wrote:
> "Richo" <m.rich...@utas.edu.au> wrote in message
> news:1121731769....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > Tom P wrote:
> > > Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing
> their
> > > atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
> > > necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their
> atheist
> > > movement.
> > <snip>
> >
> > Yeah. And?
> > What do you canclude from any of this?
>
> Well, actually, I conclude that Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao were
> atheists, and that they believed that atheism was central to their world
> view and their program of reforming the world through violent revolution.
> Heck, they said so. Not me. I didn't make that stuff up.
>
Yeah, And?
So I should imeadiately convert to Christianity? Or Judaism? Or Islam?
Or ...
How can I tell which god to worship based on which Evil atheist I hate
the most?
For example: If I detest Stalin and Mao more than the others does that
mean I should favour being a Baptist over a Catholic or Eastern
Orthodox?
Where does Hinduism fit in?
> > "Therefore God exists (Tom's particular version of course)"?
>
> No, just that the 5 men I quoted were atheists. Those quotations have no
> bearing at all on the matter of whether God does or does not exist. Why
> would you think those quotes do have anything to do with the existence of
> God?
>
I had thought you perhaps had a point to make - a purpose or a reason
for posting.
Sorry, my mistake.
Nark.
Greywolf
>
> "Ash" <asha...@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:dbhhge$1ut$2...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> > Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing
> their
>> > atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
>> > necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their
> atheist
>> > movement.
>> >
>> > posted
>> > some of the leading atheists in world history. Incidentally, three of
> the
>> > atheists I quote here became heads of governments during the 20th
> century,
>> > and actually applied their atheist ideals and goals to the populations
> of
>> > these modern nation states.
>> >
>
>
> If you insist upon a reason, how about this one? Exercising my
> constitutional right to freedom of expression.
>
>
You sure do! But why did you *really* post your message? I'll tell you part
of the reason why. It's because you want to insult us atheists in a hateful
way. You can't call us "fags," because you are probably aware that the
majority of atheists are heterosexual. You can't call us "stupid," because
you know better. You can't call us "violent" or "murderous" (as some of your
ilk have) because you know that, in the main, that is not true as well. You
equate Atheism with Communism because you think *that* is the one thing that
will hurt us and you want to rub our nose in it. Deep down inside, however,
you know we atheists can kick your sorry-ass theological asses any day of
the week. And that hurts *you*! Get over it. And, next time, post something
when you have something *important* to say.
Greywolf
Bad Wolf
"Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> catapaulted the following boulder:
>Are you ashamed to share your atheistic beliefs with Marx, Engels, Lenin,
>Stalin, and Mao?
Are you ashamed to share your Christian beliefs with David Duke,
Timothy McVeigh, Torquemada, Cardinal Richelieu, These:
http://www.christianvoice.org.uk , These: http://www.stormfront.org,
these: http://www.freewebs.com/tkkkk/ ?
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208
johac
"Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> wrote:
> Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing their
> atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
> necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their atheist
> movement.
>
> I just thought that atheists wouldn't mind at all if I quoted and posted
> some of the leading atheists in world history. Incidentally, three of the
> atheists I quote here became heads of governments during the 20th century,
> and actually applied their atheist ideals and goals to the populations of
> these modern nation states.
>
Really. Now don't tell me that you are one of those silly people who
believe that since all Communists were atheists therefore all atheists
must be Communists.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Ben Goren
> Golly, we agree on something else. I am not interested in
> anyone's atheist movement either.
Liar. You started a thread on five people you falsely claim as
leaders of atheist movements, and you're obsessed with getting
everybody to acknowledge them. You're /far/ more interested in
``atheist movements'' than any atheist I've ever personally known.
Of course, that probably has something to do with the fact that
``atheist movement'' is the perfect oxymoron. Just like you're a
member of the ``anti three-spiked saturnian dwarf landrymoppin
movement.''
Were there some really nasty people who happened to be
atheists? You bet. There also happened to be heaps of truly
wonderful people who were atheists, or so close as makes no
difference. People like Democritus, Epicurus, Lucretius, Franklin,
Hume, Diderot, Paine, de Laplace, Madison, Bolivar, Shelley,
Comte, Darwin, Lincoln, Poe, Stanton, Whitman, Anthony, Huxley,
Carnegie, Clemens, Bierce, Nietzche, Edison, Burbank, Shreiner,
Freud, Shaw, Conrad, Darrow, Curie, Wells, Wright, Proust, Vaughn
Williams, Russell, Frost, Forster, Einstein, Fields, Mencken,
Langmuir, Joyce, Woolf, Sanger, Lawrence, Rivera, Rubenstein,
Berlin, Brockway, Randolph, Chaplin, Lovecraft, Hemingway,
Laughton, Coward, Disney, Pauling, Popper, Orwell, Skinner,
Campbell, Hughes, Fletcher, Rand, Sartre, Heinlein, Hepburn, de
Beauvoir, Bronowski, Schindler, Camus, Kelly, Mitterand, Feynman,
Asimov, Roddenberry, Gaines, Schulz, Scott, Sagan, Lennon, Zappa,
White, and Adams.
That's just a partial listing of those who haven't died yet. If
you want a better perspective on what a non-believer is like,
you'll take some time to get familiar with their lives, and drop
your silly obsession with human monsters.
Cheers,
b&
--
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
All but God can prove this sentence true.
The Jesus challenge: put up or shut up http://tinyurl.com/9x22f
kathryn
> Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing their
> atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
> necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their atheist
> movement.
>
I notice that you fail to reply when people point out the many psycho
comments your fellow christers have made.
Interesting.
The DCLXVIth Earl of Helpus.
Tom P wrote:
<snip screed of McCarthyite drivel>
Oh! Nothing left!
Well, there you go.
OK, let's explain atheism to this goon.
Firstly, atheism is not a belief. Christianity is a belief, Marxism is
a belief (dialectical materialism isn't, it is an analytical
methodology), racism is a belief, communism is not a belief, it is an
economic model for social justice that has never been implemented and
the prospect of it being so is not high.
Atheism is nothing more or less than an acceptance that there is/are no
God/gods. Honest people accept this because there is no evidence to the
contrary and therefore, logically, it is the default assumption, and
therefore not a belief.
Get over it, Tom and stop being so disingenuous.
Oh! and By the way, I don't object to theist trolls making themselves
look ridiculous, why would I? That's why I don't have a killfile.
Kevrob
> Really. Now don't tell me that you are one of those silly people who
> believe that since all Communists were atheists therefore all atheists
> must be Communists.
> --
> John Hachmann aa #1782
>
Whatever does Tom P. make of individualists - capitalists, even -
who don't believe in god(s)? Ayn Rand comes to mind. What
about non-communist anarchists such as Max Stirner?
I'm sure there are others.
Actually, a Jesuit professir I once had ranked state-worship
of the type the Marxist/Leninist/Stalinists and M/L/Maoists
engaged in as a type of idolatry. The State was their god.
Your less primitive marxoid replaced god and the scriptures
with Dialectical Materialism and its prophets - Karl,
Nikolai, Josef, etc. For all its pretentions of being
scientific, Marxism as embodied by the typical one-party
state is a case of scietism, specifically historicism.
Of course, a non-believing person with an open mind can
criticise that mindset on scientific and philosophical terms,
as, frex, the way Karl Popper did in "The Open Society."
If DM is not subject to falsifiability, it isn't science.
It is more accurate to treat Marxism as a religion, albeit
one without a personified god. The verbal tick that the
dictators had of declaring themselves to be on the side
of capital-H History sounded for all the world like a
theist claiming "Gott Mitt Uns!"
Kevin
raven1
wrote:
>raven1 wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:59:22 -0500, "Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Are you ashamed to share your atheistic beliefs with Marx, Engels, Lenin,
>>>Stalin, and Mao
>>
>> How do you feel about sharing your theistic beliefs with Torquemada
>> and Hitler?
>
>I smell a "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy comin' right up....
You bring the bagpipes, laddie, I've got the haggis cooking in the
kitchen...
---
"This is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause"
- Padme Amidala, Episode III
Ash
> "Ash" <asha...@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:dbhhge$1ut$2...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>>Tom P wrote:
>>
>
> their
>
>>>atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
>>>necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their
>
> atheist
>
>>>movement.
>>>
>>>some of the leading atheists in world history. Incidentally, three of
>
> the
>
>>>atheists I quote here became heads of governments during the 20th
>
> century,
>
>>>and actually applied their atheist ideals and goals to the populations
>
> of
>
>>>these modern nation states.
>>>
>>
>
>
> Why do I need a reason?
>
> If you insist upon a reason, how about this one? Exercising my
> constitutional right to freedom of expression.
>
>
Robibnikoff
>
> "The Da Clayton Code" <cj...@SPAMBLOCKphonymails.com> wrote in message
> news:42dc433d$0$2871$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>
>> "Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
> their
>> > atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
>> > necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their
> atheist
>> > movement.
>>
> aren't
>> the same thing and you're making a massive fool of yourself by trying to
>> infer it!!
>>
> My, oh my, such a temper. All I did is quote 5 men who claimed to be
> atheists. Do you think they were not atheists? Do you challenge the
> accuracy of the quotations?
Do you even know what atheism is? All it is is a lack of belief in god(s).
That's it.
Why should I give a shit what another atheist believes outside of what I
just said above?
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist
Robibnikoff
>
> "Richo" <m.rich...@utas.edu.au> wrote in message
> news:1121731769....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> Tom P wrote:
> their
>> > atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
>> > necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their
> atheist
>> > movement.
>>
>> Yeah. And?
>> What do you canclude from any of this?
>
> Well, actually, I conclude that Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao were
> atheists, and that they believed that atheism was central to their world
> view and their program of reforming the world through violent revolution.
> Heck, they said so. Not me. I didn't make that stuff up.
But why should we give a shit what they said and/or believed? All atheism
is is the lack of belief in god(s).
Gregory Gadow
Marxists.
How about this one? Terrorist Eric Rudolph embraces Christianity, therefore all
Christians are terrorists.
Or this? Jim Jones, David Koresh and other fanatics embraced Christianity,
therefore all Christians are fanatics who, like Jones and Koresh, will lead
others to gruesome deaths.
--
Gregory Gadow
tech...@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"It is necessary to the happiness of man that he be
mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not
consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists
in professing to believe what one does not believe. It
is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may
so express it, that mental lying has produced in society.
When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the
chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional
belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared
himself for the commission of every other crime."
- Thomas Paine, "The Age of Reason"
chibiabos
> Following are the words of atheists on atheism
Gee, can I play, too?
The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example
of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men
are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice,
imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event
as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the
American governments is at present little known or regarded either in
Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity.
It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service
had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence
of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in
merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these
governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the
United States of America" (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed., The
American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a
Free Society (1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner,
"Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"
Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to
ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all
the centures since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant
people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most
unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders
of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who
would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent
it bitterly.
-- Isaac Asimov, Canadian Atheists Newsletter, 1994
The mixing of government and religion can be a threat to free
government, even if no one is forced to participate.... When the
government puts its imprimatur on a particular religion, it conveys a
message of exclusion to all those who do not adhere to the favored
beliefs. A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons
are created equal when it asserts that God prefers some.
-- Harry Blackmun, Majority Opinion, Lee v. Weisman, 1992
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his
creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short,
who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that
the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls
harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.
-- Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955, quoted
from James A. Haught, "Breaking the Last Taboo" (1996)
Examine the religious principles which have, in fact, prevailed in the
world, and you will scarcely be persuaded that they are anything but
sick men's dreams.
-- David Hume, quoted by James A. Haught in "Honest Minds, Past and
Present" Talks for History of Freethought Conference, September 20-21,
1997, Cincinnati, Ohio sponsored by Council for Secular Humanism and
Free Inquiry Group
There. Five more atheists on atheism.
Wanna play again?
-chib
--
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
RainLover
wrote:
>
>Are you ashamed to share your atheistic beliefs with Marx, Engels, Lenin,
>Stalin, and Mao?
Beliefs?
There's only ONE belief, if you'd even call it that... and that is
that atheists don't worship or believe in any gods.
Are *YOU* ashamed to share YOUR Christian beliefs with other
christians throughout history? I'm sure there are some DANDY quotes
out there about blacks, slavery, indians, control, money, worship,
power... shall we post THOSE quotes?
I'm an atheists, a Taoist, but very ATHEISTIC in my spirituality, so
why not quote ME in your next tirade?
Here:
"If people of all spiritualities could put aside their differences, if
they could stop trying to force their beliefs on others, I believe
humans could finally attain peace" --James, Seattle
Why do I KNOW you would never include that quote in ANYTHING you said
regarding atheists?
Hypocrite.
James, Seattle
RainLover
wrote:
>
>"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
>news:ybidnfdrSK0...@megapath.net...
>> In episode <42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com>, Tom P burst
>> into the room and exclaimed:
>>
>> > Following
>>
>> ...is the same old "atheism = communism" crap.
>>
>> Yawn.
>>
>You did not challenge the truth or accuracy of the quotations. Does that
>mean you acknowledge their accuracy and truth?
HERE: If you want "accuracy and truth", have somLEADING CHRISTIANS
tell you something about Christianity....
"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want
you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our
goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by
God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want
pluralism." Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue. Reported by
the News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, IN, 1993-AUG-16
"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as
to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin." --Cardinal Bellarmine,
[1615, during the trial of Galileo]
"Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not
contrary to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just
titles of slavery and these are referred to by approved theologians
and commentators of the sacred canons. ...It is not contrary to the
natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, and exchanged
or given." --Pope Pius IX, June 20, 1866.
God how I love quote mining
James, Seattle
RainLover
wrote:
>
>"The Da Clayton Code" <cj...@SPAMBLOCKphonymails.com> wrote in message
>news:42dc433d$0$2871$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>
>> "Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
>> > Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing
>their
>> > atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
>> > necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their
>atheist
>> > movement.
>>
>> Get yourself a second grade education, retard. Atheism and communism
>aren't
>> the same thing and you're making a massive fool of yourself by trying to
>> infer it!!
>>
>My, oh my, such a temper. All I did is quote 5 men who claimed to be
>atheists. Do you think they were not atheists? Do you challenge the
>accuracy of the quotations?
Are you REALLY this dense or are you just playing so in the
newsgroups?
How about THIS QUOTE:
"You *must* KILL witches" -- The Christian God
James, Seattle
RainLover
wrote:
>Tom P wrote:
>
>> Golly, we agree on something else. I am not interested in
>> anyone's atheist movement either.
>
>Liar. You started a thread on five people you falsely claim as
>leaders of atheist movements, and you're obsessed with getting
>everybody to acknowledge them. You're /far/ more interested in
>``atheist movements'' than any atheist I've ever personally known.
>
>Of course, that probably has something to do with the fact that
>``atheist movement'' is the perfect oxymoron. Just like you're a
>member of the ``anti three-spiked saturnian dwarf landrymoppin
>movement.''
OBVIOUSLY you're talking out your ASS.
You haven't been to www.anti3spikedsaturniandwarflandrymoppin.org yet,
have you??? Check things out before you speak!!!!
>
>Were there some really nasty people who happened to be
>atheists? You bet. There also happened to be heaps of truly
>wonderful people who were atheists, or so close as makes no
>difference. People like Democritus, Epicurus, Lucretius, Franklin,
>Hume, Diderot, Paine, de Laplace, Madison, Bolivar, Shelley,
>Comte, Darwin, Lincoln, Poe, Stanton, Whitman, Anthony, Huxley,
>Carnegie, Clemens, Bierce, Nietzche, Edison, Burbank, Shreiner,
>Freud, Shaw, Conrad, Darrow, Curie, Wells, Wright, Proust, Vaughn
>Williams, Russell, Frost, Forster, Einstein, Fields, Mencken,
>Langmuir, Joyce, Woolf, Sanger, Lawrence, Rivera, Rubenstein,
>Berlin, Brockway, Randolph, Chaplin, Lovecraft, Hemingway,
>Laughton, Coward, Disney, Pauling, Popper, Orwell, Skinner,
>Campbell, Hughes, Fletcher, Rand, Sartre, Heinlein, Hepburn, de
>Beauvoir, Bronowski, Schindler, Camus, Kelly, Mitterand, Feynman,
>Asimov, Roddenberry, Gaines, Schulz, Scott, Sagan, Lennon, Zappa,
>White, and Adams.
Did you click on that link? hehe... I hope you did! :-D
And on a sad note... a few in your above list have died, Lennon,
Sagan, and (weeping) Douglas Adams to name three. But your point
isn't lost, they are all good people.
>That's just a partial listing of those who haven't died yet. If
>you want a better perspective on what a non-believer is like,
>you'll take some time to get familiar with their lives, and drop
>your silly obsession with human monsters.
"People don't form their lives to their religion, they form their
beliefs to their lives." --James, Seattle
I love quoting myself.
James, Seattle
RainLover
wrote:
>> >Are you trying to tell us that anyone who calls himself an atheist is a
>> >communist at heart? Gee, that was very "Christian" of you.
>> I guess the next thing you'll tell us is that all atheists are unpatriotic
>> and that we all ought to get up and move to mother Russia as well. Aye?
>>
>> Greywolf
>>
>Why would I tell you that? Your suggestions seem terribly bizarre and
>sarcastic to me.
Your cynisim comes across loudly.... so far you're reassuring many
ex-christian atheists that leaving the faith was the right thing to
do. Is this your goal here?
>Why are you so offended just because I posted some quotes from some of the
>most famous atheists in human history?
>
>Are you ashamed to be associated with those 5 atheists I quoted from?
Are YOU ashamed to be associated with the 5 humans? Their atheism had
nothing to do with the sort of men they were any more than the
Christian Butchers of history were evil BECAUSE of their faith. They
were evil butchers who wrapped christianity around them just as Mao
wrapped atheism around himself.
James, Seattle
RainLover
wrote:
>
>> Expressing what? You seem afraid to state the conclusion you keep
>> implying.
>
>Exactly, and that's relatively common. He's too scared to announce his
>conclusion, but the agenda is obvious. When people demonstrate him to be
>wrong, the defense mechanisms go up: "But I never SAID that."
Just like Rove never SAID the name of Wilson's wife when leaking
information about her.
This seems to be standard operationg proceedure from the playbook of
the Christian Right.
James, Seattle
Don Kresch
<t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> let us all know that:
>
>"Richo" <m.rich...@utas.edu.au> wrote in message
>news:1121731769....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> Tom P wrote:
>> > Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing
>their
>> > atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
>> > necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their
>atheist
>> > movement.
>> <snip>
>>
>> Yeah. And?
>> What do you canclude from any of this?
>
>Well, actually, I conclude that Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao were
>atheists, and that they believed that atheism was central to their world
>view and their program of reforming the world through violent revolution.
Actually, they deified the state.
But you'd know that if you did some research.
Don
Don Kresch
<t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> let us all know that:
>
>"Niels van der Linden" <n.f.l.van...@student.utwente.nl> wrote in
>message news:dbhevl$t18$1...@netlx020.civ.utwente.nl...
>> > I just thought that atheists wouldn't mind at all if I quoted and posted
>> > some of the leading atheists in world history.
>>
>> Nice projection, theist.
>>
>So you do object if someone posts the words of atheists describing their
>atheism in their own words.
And do you then object if we quote those of your religion who
were communist?
>Seeing as certain of these atheists I quoted were responsible for over 100
>million murders between 1917 and 1976, I must admit your implication of
>superior ethical conduct and morality by atheists seems a bit of a stretch.
No, it doesn't.
>And that figure of over100 million murders in 59 years is a low estimate,
>and is also far greater than all of the murders by Christians since
>Christianity was founded about 1950 years ago.
And you know that the murders were caused by atheism how?
Don
JPG
>Following
Sort of sums it up, really.
JPG
Robibnikoff
"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOC...@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:jg0qd156v7o902l0m...@4ax.com...
Hey! Ixnay nay hetay illkay! ;)
I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!
>
> "Richo" <m.rich...@utas.edu.au> wrote in message
> news:1121731769....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > Tom P wrote:
> their
> > > atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
> > > necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their
> atheist
> > > movement.
> >
> > Yeah. And?
> > What do you canclude from any of this?
>
> Well, actually, I conclude that Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao were
> atheists, and that they believed that atheism was central to their world
> view and their program of reforming the world through violent revolution.
>
mean
> you believe they are accurate and true. See, we agree on something
already.
>
> > "Therefore God exists (Tom's particular version of course)"?
>
> No, just that the 5 men I quoted were atheists. Those quotations have no
> bearing at all on the matter of whether God does or does not exist. Why
> would you think those quotes do have anything to do with the existence of
> God?
>
> >
> > Also - I am not interested in anyones "atheist" movement.
>
> Golly, we agree on something else. I am not interested in anyone's atheist
> movement either.
>
> > much I ever will be.
> >
> Well, good for you! I'm not either. Three things we agree on. See, we
> don't have to be enemies, do we?
>
> > Mark.
> >
>
> you are a filthy theist-you ARE my enemy.
--
bastard of this world.defender of the faith.
AA #2241.
Rick
>In episode <42dc5e81$0$22297$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com>, Tom P burst
>into the room and exclaimed:
>
>> "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
>> news:ybidnfdrSK0...@megapath.net...
>>> In episode <42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com>, Tom P burst
>>> into the room and exclaimed:
>>>
>>> > Following
>>>
>>> ...is the same old "atheism = communism" crap.
>>>
>>> Yawn.
>>>
>> You did not challenge the truth or accuracy of the quotations. Does that
>> mean you acknowledge their accuracy and truth?
>
>
>I. Don't. Care.
I think you care a great deal. So do many others on alt.atheism.
>So you can find some stupid things said by stupid people who stupidly
>asserted stupidity in the name of "atheism." Big frakking deal. You can
>find idiots and cranks everywhere. What of it?
You could hardly be more disingenuous. You've described about 99 percent of
what atheists post.
- Rick
Rick
>
>"Niels van der Linden" <n.f.l.van...@student.utwente.nl> wrote in
>message news:dbhevl$t18$1...@netlx020.civ.utwente.nl...
>> > I just thought that atheists wouldn't mind at all if I quoted and
posted
>> > some of the leading atheists in world history.
>>
>> Nice projection, theist.
>>
>So you do object if someone posts the words of atheists describing their
>
>Is it the fact that these men I quoted were atheists?
>
>Are you ashamed to share your atheistic beliefs with Marx, Engels, Lenin,
>Stalin, and Mao?
>
>Anyway, why criticize me? I didn't write that stuff. Real live atheists
>did. And I noted that you never attacked the accuracy of the quotations I
>posted. If they were not accurate, I am confident you would have screamed
>bloody murder. So I will presume you agree that the quotations are true
and
>accurate as posted.
>
>> Atheists don't have leaders. Just like a-santa-ists.
>>
>Where did I claim atheists had leaders? I don't see where I used the word
>leader in this post, but I could have missed it. Can you point out to me
>where I even used the word "leader"? I used "world famous" to describe the
>atheists who wrote these words. Can you honestly state you have not heard
>of the men I quoted? I also used the term "head of government. But that
is
>just a recitation of facts. Lenin, Stalin, and Mao were indeed atheists
and
>indeed they were heads of the governments of their countries. How can
>anyone dispute those facts?
>
>> Your 'morals'-by-threat are the worst kind.
>>
>To what do you refer?
>
>Seeing as certain of these atheists I quoted were responsible for over 100
>million murders between 1917 and 1976, I must admit your implication of
>superior ethical conduct and morality by atheists seems a bit of a stretch.
>and is also far greater than all of the murders by Christians since
>Christianity was founded about 1950 years ago.
>
>> http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/dark-age.htm
>>
>Nice try. But that has nothing to do with the subject of my post. That
>subject was atheists on atheism. I did nothing but quote world famous
>atheists. What does the existence, or not, of Jesus have to do with
>atheists writing about their views on atheism?
>
>> Science doesn't burn people for the sake of disagreeing.
>>
>Again, that may or may not be true, but it has nothing to do with atheists
>writing about their atheism.
>
>Who said science did anything? Are you equating science with atheism? You
>are in august company. So did Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao, Stalin and a
couple
>dozen atheist mass murderers I can name.
>
>Besides, science never did anything. Scientists did a whole lot of things.
>Just as Christianity never murdered or tortured anyone, not even a single
>person. Christians did to millions. Atheism never committed mass murder
on
>the most prolific scale in history. Atheists did. Is that distinction too
>subtle for you?
>
>> Fuck off with your death cult.
>>
>Now that isn't nice. Why would you insult me for posting the words of
>atheists on the atheism they practiced and evangelized? I would never
>insult you like that no matter what you posted about theists.
>
>> http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
>
>I think I can match every murder, every instance of torture, and every
>atrocity listed on that web page or any other litany of Judeo-Christian
>murders throughout history with an atrocity and murder committed by an
>atheist since the late 18th century. Care to make such a list? Ever read
>some of the orders of the atheist Trotsky and the atheist Dzherzhinsky
>during the Lenin regime? The difference between the ones I can list and
>those on that page is that the atrocities by atheists all occurred during
>the modern period and are better documented. Many, if not most, of those
>listed at http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html are
obviously
>allegorical. Geez . . .
>
>May I ask a question, please? Why do so many atheists, and I include you
in
>this generalization, presume that everyone you correspond with is a
>fundamentalist who believes in the absolute literalness and inerrancy of
the
>entire bible? Not even a substantial number of Christians believe that.
>But apparently most atheists make that assumption. Can you really not tell
>the difference between allegory, fable, parable, and history?
Great post. You've hit the nail on the head in calling out classic atheist
hypocrisy.
- Rick
Rick
>
>"Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:42dc5f00$0$22374$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
>>
>> "The Da Clayton Code" <cj...@SPAMBLOCKphonymails.com> wrote in message
>> news:42dc433d$0$2871$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>>
>>> "Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
>>> > Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing
>> their
>>> > atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is the
>>> > necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their
>> atheist
>>> > movement.
>>>
>>> Get yourself a second grade education, retard. Atheism and communism
>> aren't
>>> the same thing and you're making a massive fool of yourself by trying to
>>> infer it!!
>>>
>> My, oh my, such a temper. All I did is quote 5 men who claimed to be
>> atheists. Do you think they were not atheists? Do you challenge the
>> accuracy of the quotations?
>
>Do you even know what atheism is? All it is is a lack of belief in god(s).
>That's it.
That's nice in theory, but in reality, atheists - at least most I've
encountered - have an absolute certitude that *God does not exist*, and,
furthermore, that religion is very dangerous. Which brings us back to the
original atheists mentioned by the OP.
>Why should I give a shit what another atheist believes outside of what I
>just said above?
That doesn't seem to matter whenever the issue of Hitler's Christianity
comes up.
- Rick
Rick
>In episode <1121731769....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Richo
>burst into the room and exclaimed:
>
>>> Following are the words of atheists on atheism; atheists describing
>>> their atheism; the necessity for their atheism; the fact that atheism is
>>> the necessary prerequisite of materialism; and the objectives of their
>>> atheist movement.
>>
>> Yeah. And?
>> What do you canclude from any of this? "Therefore God exists (Tom's
>
>Absolutively! It's like:
>
>1. There are bad people.
>2. Some bad people didn't believe what I believe.
>3. Therefore, god exists!
Your illogic is absolutely astonishing. Seems like Tom has you completely
rattled.
- Rick
Alexander Glover
would would infer faith. God forbid they have faith. That would show
spirituality.
"Rick" <pl1_alp...@juNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:dJmdnRafYPl...@giganews.com...
Rick
>Tom P wrote:
>> "Greywolf" <grey...@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
>> news:11dohvt...@corp.supernews.com...
>>>"Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
>>>>Are you trying to tell us that anyone who calls himself an atheist is a
>>>>communist at heart? Gee, that was very "Christian" of you.
>>>
>>>I guess the next thing you'll tell us is that all atheists are
unpatriotic
>>>and that we all ought to get up and move to mother Russia as well. Aye?
>>>
>>>Greywolf
>>>
>>
>> Why would I tell you that? Your suggestions seem terribly bizarre and
>> sarcastic to me.
>
>As is your assumption that atheism is a "group with leaders."
The strawmen are out in full force, I see.
- Rick
Fred Stone
news:55bDe.112597$gc6.16797@okepread04:
> It would seem to me that athiests have nothing. They can't believe,
> that would would infer faith. God forbid they have faith. That would
> show spirituality.
It doesn't take faith to believe the evidence.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Political correctness is a form of moral and emotional blackmail
whereby if you call a spade a spade you must
a) apologize to the spade,
b) if you live in the US, take a sensitivity training course, or
c) if you live in Old Yurp, you are taken to court for defamation of the
aforementioned spade.
Fred Stone
news:dYmdnfrU15R...@giganews.com:
You should know, you're putting up many of them yourself.
Christopher A. Lee
<pl1_alp...@juNOSPAM.com> wrote:
>That's nice in theory, but in reality, atheists - at least most I've
>encountered - have an absolute certitude that *God does not exist*, and,
>furthermore, that religion is very dangerous. Which brings us back to the
>original atheists mentioned by the OP.
You have to be really stupid to imagine that.
First of all, it's no different than "there ain't no Santa Claus". But
for some reason sociopathic theists attempt to "describe" us by
inventing positions we don't have based on presumptions that don't
apply outside their religion.
>>Why should I give a shit what another atheist believes outside of what I
>>just said above?
>
>That doesn't seem to matter whenever the issue of Hitler's Christianity
>comes up.
Then don't pretend he wasn't Christian and that his actions weren't
the culmination of 1900 years of church-sanctioned anti-Semitism.
>- Rick
>
Alexander Glover
below your name. Clever.
"Fred Stone" <fsto...@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:1121795883.0c2b0aaaca0cfc81f27e2ee738f5dfea@teranews...
Fred Stone
> "Fred Stone" <fsto...@earthling.com> wrote in message
> news:1121795883.0c2b0aaaca0cfc81f27e2ee738f5dfea@teranews...
>> "Alexander Glover" <alexand...@cox.net> wrote in
>> news:55bDe.112597$gc6.16797@okepread04:
>>
>>> It would seem to me that athiests have nothing. They can't believe,
>>> that would would infer faith. God forbid they have faith. That
>>> would show spirituality.
>>
>> It doesn't take faith to believe the evidence.
>>
> Look like you can't see all the evidence.
What evidence?
> By the way, I like the
> spade line below your name. Clever.
I stole it from a post on another group.
Rick
>> Tom P wrote:
>>
>>> Besides, I have never said atheism killed anyone. Neither did
>>> Christianity.
>>> Christians murdered tens of millions.
>>
>>
>> In the name of Christianity? Si.
>>
>>> Atheists murdered tens of millions.
>>
>>
>> In the name of atheism? No.
>>
>> There's a tiny bit of difference between the two. See if you can spot it.
>>
>
>I'm just trying to imagine the murderer who murders in the name of atheism.
>
>"I..." <hack> "...do..." <slash> "...not..." <stab> "...believe..."
><crack> "...in..." <rip> "...gods...!"
>
>Kinda silly, doncha think? Atheism is a passive entity; it has no
>dogma; no doctrine; no precepts; nothing of the sort.
>
>It's simply a lack of belief in gods.
>
>Any action beyond that is not "in the name of atheism," anymore than
>having brown hair is killing "in the name of brown-hairdedness."
>
>However, religions of all shapes and flavors have been used as a tool
>and a reason for putting forth mass murder, just like Marx, Stalin,
>Lenin, et al had a reason: Communist-like Marxism, and Mao had Maoism.
>
>Atheism, having no dogma/doctrine, is immune. :-)
The world would be a much better place if all those who claim to have a mere
lack of belief in God(s) actually had nothing more than a mere lack of
belief in God(s). Unfortunately that isn't so, as is especially evident on
USENET.
- Rick
Rick
<1121795913.cbe3e197a1375a6e76f1269e4f7da95d@teranews>...
>"Rick" <pl1_alp...@juNOSPAM.com> wrote in
>news:dYmdnfrU15R...@giganews.com:
>
>> DanielSan wrote in message ...
>>>Tom P wrote:
>>>> "Greywolf" <grey...@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:11dohvt...@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>>"Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:42dc32e2$0$22301$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
>> [snip]
>>
>>>>>>Are you trying to tell us that anyone who calls himself an atheist
>>>>>>is a communist at heart? Gee, that was very "Christian" of you.
>>>>>
>>>>>I guess the next thing you'll tell us is that all atheists are
>> unpatriotic
>>>>>and that we all ought to get up and move to mother Russia as well.
>>>>>Aye?
>>>>>
>>>>>Greywolf
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why would I tell you that? Your suggestions seem terribly bizarre
>>>> and sarcastic to me.
>>>
>>>As is your assumption that atheism is a "group with leaders."
>>
>> The strawmen are out in full force, I see.
>>
>
>You should know, you're putting up many of them yourself.
Please identify them.
- Rick
Greywolf
> On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:33:55 -0500, "Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> >Are you trying to tell us that anyone who calls himself an atheist is a
>>> >communist at heart? Gee, that was very "Christian" of you.
>>> I guess the next thing you'll tell us is that all atheists are
>>> unpatriotic
>>> and that we all ought to get up and move to mother Russia as well. Aye?
>>>
>>> Greywolf
>>>
>>Why would I tell you that? Your suggestions seem terribly bizarre and
>>sarcastic to me.
>
> Your cynisim comes across loudly.... so far you're reassuring many
> ex-christian atheists that leaving the faith was the right thing to
> do. Is this your goal here?
>
>
>a bunch of hooey and we bought it ... for a while. The thing is *no* group
>has a lock on morality. I wonder why Christians think *they* do. I'm a
>"moral" atheist, and I'll bet the majority of atheists are as well. I think
>that any ex-Christian who stays in these parts long enough will be
>confident that he or she picked the right side. Truth will always prevail
>over fiction ... in the end.
Greywolf
Christopher A. Lee
<pl1_alp...@juNOSPAM.com> wrote:
>Christopher A. Lee wrote in message ...
>>On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:42:55 -0500, "Rick"
>><pl1_alp...@juNOSPAM.com> wrote:
>
>NOte: here's what I was responding to:
>
>**************************************************
>>Do you even know what atheism is? All it is is a lack of belief in god(s).
>>That's it.
>**************************************************
>
>>>That's nice in theory, but in reality, atheists - at least most I've
>>>encountered - have an absolute certitude that *God does not exist*, and,
>>>furthermore, that religion is very dangerous. Which brings us back to the
>>>original atheists mentioned by the OP.
>>
>>You have to be really stupid to imagine that.
>
>I'm simply describing what I've observed over many years of reading what
>atheists have written. The comment I responded to described weak atheism,
>and I mostly see strong atheism.
No, you don't. You intrptret it to be that.
Because you do it from a perspective that refuses to grans that
evenstrong atheismis in the same vein as "there ain't no Santa
Claus".
You attempt todescribe us as though your inside-the-religion premises
applied to us, which they don't.
>- Rick
>
Rick
><pl1_alp...@juNOSPAM.com> wrote:
NOte: here's what I was responding to:
**************************************************
>Do you even know what atheism is? All it is is a lack of belief in god(s).
>That's it.
**************************************************
>>That's nice in theory, but in reality, atheists - at least most I've
>>encountered - have an absolute certitude that *God does not exist*, and,
>>furthermore, that religion is very dangerous. Which brings us back to the
>>original atheists mentioned by the OP.
>
>You have to be really stupid to imagine that.
I'm simply describing what I've observed over many years of reading what
atheists have written. The comment I responded to described weak atheism,
and I mostly see strong atheism.
- Rick
Rick
>On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:56:12 -0500, "Rick"
><pl1_alp...@juNOSPAM.com> wrote:
>
>>Christopher A. Lee wrote in message ...
>>>On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:42:55 -0500, "Rick"
>>><pl1_alp...@juNOSPAM.com> wrote:
>>
>>NOte: here's what I was responding to:
>>
>>**************************************************
>>>Do you even know what atheism is? All it is is a lack of belief in
god(s).
>>>That's it.
>>**************************************************
>>
>>>>That's nice in theory, but in reality, atheists - at least most I've
>>>>encountered - have an absolute certitude that *God does not exist*, and,
>>>>furthermore, that religion is very dangerous. Which brings us back to
the
>>>>original atheists mentioned by the OP.
>>>
>>>You have to be really stupid to imagine that.
>>
>>I'm simply describing what I've observed over many years of reading what
>>atheists have written. The comment I responded to described weak atheism,
>>and I mostly see strong atheism.
>
>No, you don't. You intrptret it to be that.
There's absolutely no interpretation involved whatsoever when people express
outright hostility to religion, and condescending arrogance to believers.
That's not lack of belief - it's absolute certitude. Perhaps you're in
denial.
Rick
>raven1 wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:59:22 -0500, "Tom P" <t_h_o...@iyahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Are you ashamed to share your atheistic beliefs with Marx, Engels, Lenin,
>>>Stalin, and Mao
>>
>> and Hitler?
>
>I smell a "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy comin' right up....
Outstenched by the No True ScotsAtheist.
- Rick
Christopher A. Lee
<pl1_alp...@juNOSPAM.com> wrote:
Keep your religion to yourselves and there illbe nothing to react to.
Don't lie about atheists to their faces and their will be nothingto
react to.
Listen when they CORRECT you and don't reinterpret it as if your deity
were real in the real world outside your religion. BEcause if you do
that you will always get it wrong.
And that is the problem. BEcause we can no more be described
accurately fro inside-you-religion premises that don't even apply to
us than you could be described by a Hindu in terms of somebody who
denies Krishna.
And don't EVER pretend that the reaction to this, or to the imposition
of your religion is "hostility". That kind of lie only escalates the
unpleasantness that caused the earlier reaction.
>>Because you do it from a perspective that refuses to grans that
>>evenstrong atheismis in the same vein as "there ain't no Santa
>>Claus".
>>
>>You attempt todescribe us as though your inside-the-religion premises
>>applied to us, which they don't.
Please acknowledge this instead of trying to "prove" we're not as we
describe.
>- Rick
>
Christopher A. Lee
Only because the theist refuses to grasp what an atheist is, and what
he isn't.
>- Rick
>
Hellbound Alleee
describe me. "Christianity" and all its cruelty and amorality describes
people like you very well.
Hellbound Alleee
................................................................
Listen to the Hellbound Alleee Show at http://www.hellboundalleee.com
................................................................
Christopher A. Lee
<afrpenn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Unlike Christianity, atheism is not a religion. "Atheism" does not
>describe me. "Christianity" and all its cruelty and amorality describes
>people like you very well.
Well said. They haven't the courtesy to listen and to grant when we
explain that their stawmen they have invented don't actually describe
us, and what our position actually is. Instead they try to
"prove"their bigoted misrepresentation was correct.
It is a rare theist who can grasp that we see their religion and its
beliefs in much the same way they see Hinduism, Islam etc: simple
somebody else's religion, what they believe etc.
Their premises can no more describe us correctly than eg a Hindu's can
describe Christianity.
And it is an insult that they can't be bothered to get our POV right.
They don't care - but they're going to attack us based on their
strawman anyway.