Autocompletion in 2.1.7

[anatoly techtonik]

I find the quotes autocompletion pretty annoying in current repository version (2.1.7+). I don't remember being so constrained with writing in Spyder before. Am I the only one?

[Carlos Córdoba]

Sorry for that (I was the one who introduced those changes). What are
your main complaints and what I can do to fix them? Notice that a group
of users and me are working to improve the shortcoming of this feature
in Issue 872. Unfortunately I haven't had time to work on it during the
last couple of weeks.

In principle I could add an option to separate quote completion from
brace completion. That would be ok?

El 09/02/12 06:11, anatoly techtonik escribió:

> I find the quotes autocompletion pretty annoying in current repository
> version (2.1.7+). I don't remember being so constrained with writing
> in Spyder before. Am I the only one?

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[Carlos Córdoba]

Sorry for my bad wording, instead of "In principle", please read "To
start with"

El 09/02/12 08:15, Carlos Córdoba escribió:

[anatoly techtonik]

No need to apologize. It is nice to know that it is something being worked on. I was afraid that the work is abandoned and Spyder is left in the current state. Perhaps it is worth to put these changes off the radar into separate branch if further activity is unlikely to happen anytime soon.

But for now I'd like to understand what's happening. The way to increase visibility that I see is to add numbered description for each separate autocompletion feature to wiki page (probably with +1 button) to see which of them are useful, and which are conflicting. Perhaps debug panel with checkboxes that turn on these autocompletion features and logging for events of these features can make the process more inspiring.

I can't describe the process clearly, but the one user story that is clearly annoying is when you copy/paste some stuff and then put it in quotes.
--
anatoly t.

2012/2/9 Carlos Córdoba <ccord...@gmail.com>

Sorry for that (I was the one who introduced those changes). What are your main complaints and what I can do to fix them? Notice that a group of users and me are working to improve the shortcoming of this feature in Issue 872. Unfortunately I haven't had time to work on it during the last couple of weeks.

In principle I could add an option to separate quote completion from brace completion. That would be ok?

El 09/02/12 06:11, anatoly techtonik escribió:

I find the quotes autocompletion pretty annoying in current repository version (2.1.7+). I don't remember being so constrained with writing in Spyder before. Am I the only one?
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[Pierre Raybaut]

I do agree with Anatoly. 

For the first time in weeks, I had the opportunity to play with Spyder (I have a new position at work, with new responsibilities, so I have been disconnected from the project lately, but I'll be back soon I hope). And while I was doing a demo of our internal tools to a colleague, I was really fighting against the editor to write strings (I ended disabling the feature in editor's preferences page): the fact that ending quotes are inserted automatically does not help me as I'm used to close them manually (which has the effect of inserting again a couple of quotes instead...), so instead of closing them manually, I'm pressing the right arrow key (if I intend to write something just after the string) one time or three times (for triple quotes), giving me the impression that there is no real improvement because without this feature, I would hit the quote key exactly as many times. Maybe it's useful for people who use more the mouse than me, but I'm quite convinced that it's more efficient to use less the mouse and more the keyboard for writing source code. Anyway there is certainly a better way to use the feature I guess. 

Regarding the fact that this new feature ended in a maintenance release, that is unfortunate. When releasing v2.1.7, I admit that I didn't realize how much the feature was imposed to the end user. The fact is that a maintenance release do not give us the opportunity to test this kind of new feature -- we only have the time to debug, not to test new behaviors. 

So I think that we should come up with a new release very soon and take a step back on this feature: remove it temporarily or disable it by default. 

And last but not least, Carlos, do not take it for you. We are a team and we should have seen this coming together.

Cheers

Pierre

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[Carlos Córdoba]

Hi all,

I guess I got too excited when I introduced these features because it didn't take too much time to do it (usually I spent a lot of time trying to understand/develop new code) and since the easiest way to show new things to users is landing them in trunk, I did it without giving too much thought. Now I realize it was too hasty on my part and that I should have asked for other devs suggestions/comments. This also shows that we need proper review mechanisms, that ironically I've been strongly suggesting the last couple of months!

So here are my proposals:

1. In the short term: Separate quotes completion from braces completion as an option in Preferences and leave it off by default. Give me a week and a half to push several fixes I have drafted for this feature and release 2.1.8.

2. In the midterm: Open a 2.2 branch to start development of new features without fearing to break the stable branch. Try to do this every time a new release is done to avoid this to happen again.

3. We also need to agree on a proper review process before any developer can push to trunk (even in the 2.2 branch). Since my proposal to move to Github was not well received I think we can stay at googlecode but with some modifications to our workflow. I've been discussing this with Jed off-list and when we have something more concrete I'll send a new message to the list so all of us can fine tune the missing details.

What do you think?

Cheers,
Carlos

El 13/02/12 14:24, Pierre Raybaut escribió:

I do agree with Anatoly. 

For the first time in weeks, I had the opportunity to play with Spyder (I have a new position at work, with new responsibilities, so I have been disconnected from the project lately, but I'll be back soon I hope). And while I was doing a demo of our internal tools to a colleague, I was really fighting against the editor to write strings (I ended disabling the feature in editor's preferences page): the fact that ending quotes are inserted automatically does not help me as I'm used to close them manually (which has the effect of inserting again a couple of quotes instead...), so instead of closing them manually, I'm pressing the right arrow key (if I intend to write something just after the string) one time or three times (for triple quotes), giving me the impression that there is no real improvement because without this feature, I would hit the quote key exactly as many times. Maybe it's useful for people who use more the mouse than me, but I'm quite convinced that it's more efficient to use less the mouse and more the keyboard for writing source code. Anyway there is certainly a better way to use the feature I guess. 

Regarding the fact that this new feature ended in a maintenance release, that is unfortunate. When releasing v2.1.7, I admit that I didn't realize how much the feature was imposed to the end user. The fact is that a maintenance release do not give us the opportunity to test this kind of new feature -- we only have the time to debug, not to test new behaviors. 

So I think that we should come up with a new release very soon and take a step back on this feature: remove it temporarily or disable it by default. 

And last but not least, Carlos, do not take it for you. We are a team and we should have seen this coming together.

Cheers

Pierre

Le 13 févr. 2012 à 17:42, anatoly techtonik <tech...@gmail.com> a écrit :

No need to apologize. It is nice to know that it is something being worked on. I was afraid that the work is abandoned and Spyder is left in the current state. Perhaps it is worth to put these changes off the radar into separate branch if further activity is unlikely to happen anytime soon.

But for now I'd like to understand what's happening. The way to increase visibility that I see is to add numbered description for each separate autocompletion feature to wiki page (probably with +1 button) to see which of them are useful, and which are conflicting. Perhaps debug panel with checkboxes that turn on these autocompletion features and logging for events of these features can make the process more inspiring.

I can't describe the process clearly, but the one user story that is clearly annoying is when you copy/paste some stuff and then put it in quotes.
--
anatoly t.

2012/2/9 Carlos Córdoba <ccord...@gmail.com>

Sorry for that (I was the one who introduced those changes). What are your main complaints and what I can do to fix them? Notice that a group of users and me are working to improve the shortcoming of this feature in Issue 872. Unfortunately I haven't had time to work on it during the last couple of weeks.

In principle I could add an option to separate quote completion from brace completion. That would be ok?

El 09/02/12 06:11, anatoly techtonik escribió:

I find the quotes autocompletion pretty annoying in current repository version (2.1.7+). I don't remember being so constrained with writing in Spyder before. Am I the only one?
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[Pierre Raybaut]

Le 14 févr. 2012 à 16:12, "Carlos Córdoba" <ccord...@gmail.com> a écrit :

Hi all,

I guess I got too excited when I introduced these features because it didn't take too much time to do it (usually I spent a lot of time trying to understand/develop new code) and since the easiest way to show new things to users is landing them in trunk, I did it without giving too much thought. Now I realize it was too hasty on my part and that I should have asked for other devs suggestions/comments. This also shows that we need proper review mechanisms, that ironically I've been strongly suggesting the last couple of months!

So here are my proposals:

1. In the short term: Separate quotes completion from braces completion as an option in Preferences and leave it off by default. Give me a week and a half to push several fixes I have drafted for this feature and release 2.1.8.

Ok. As a side note, let's not forget that the feature must be disabled by default on new installations. Changing the default value in config.py or in the appropriate CONF.get call will do this. It will also set the option off for upgrades from v2.1.6 (or earlier) to v2.1.8, but it won't change the option state for upgrades from v2.1.7 to v2.1.8 because the option already exists in the .ini configuration file. But we have to set it off for this kind of upgrade to I think. There is a thing to do in config.py to force using the default values without resetting all features. I'll check this. 

2. In the midterm: Open a 2.2 branch to start development of new features without fearing to break the stable branch. Try to do this every time a new release is done to avoid this to happen again.

This was my intention indeed but creating this branch too soon would have monopolized a great part of our energy on new features instead of stabilizing the current release. And, as long as issues are reported at a certain rate after a new release, I prefer that resources are concentrating on solving these issues instead of developing new features. There are exceptions to this rule of course: I did introduce new features between v2.1.0 and v2.1.7 but their impact on Spyder's source code were very limited and I carefully tested them (more importantly, these new features added something new but without changing Spyder's behavior: in other words, in the worst case scenario, the end user would not use them at all by simply ignoring their existence). 

So now would be a good time to create this branch indeed. 

3. We also need to agree on a proper review process before any developer can push to trunk (even in the 2.2 branch). Since my proposal to move to Github was not well received I think we can stay at googlecode but with some modifications to our workflow. I've been discussing this with Jed off-list and when we have something more concrete I'll send a new message to the list so all of us can fine tune the missing details.

That's perfectly fine with me. 

What do you think?

As I wrote above, I completely agree with you. 

Thanks for taking the time to write these propositions. 

Cheers

Pierre

[Carlos Córdoba]

I'm glad we both agree on the main points of my proposals :) I have just one question (please see below):

El 14/02/12 12:28, Pierre Raybaut escribió:

Le 14 févr. 2012 à 16:12, "Carlos Córdoba" <ccord...@gmail.com> a écrit :

Hi all,

I guess I got too excited when I introduced these features because it didn't take too much time to do it (usually I spent a lot of time trying to understand/develop new code) and since the easiest way to show new things to users is landing them in trunk, I did it without giving too much thought. Now I realize it was too hasty on my part and that I should have asked for other devs suggestions/comments. This also shows that we need proper review mechanisms, that ironically I've been strongly suggesting the last couple of months!

So here are my proposals:

1. In the short term: Separate quotes completion from braces completion as an option in Preferences and leave it off by default. Give me a week and a half to push several fixes I have drafted for this feature and release 2.1.8.

Ok. As a side note, let's not forget that the feature must be disabled by default on new installations. Changing the default value in config.py or in the appropriate CONF.get call will do this. It will also set the option off for upgrades from v2.1.6 (or earlier) to v2.1.8, but it won't change the option state for upgrades from v2.1.7 to v2.1.8 because the option already exists in the .ini configuration file. But we have to set it off for this kind of upgrade to I think. There is a thing to do in config.py to force using the default values without resetting all features. I'll check this.

Since right now quote completion and brace completion are tied together in a single option, are you saying that we have to disabled the latter for 2.1.8, besides introducing a new and lonely quote completion option?

Cheers,
Carlos

[Pierre Raybaut]

Le 15 févr. 2012 à 05:19, "Carlos Córdoba" <ccord...@gmail.com> a écrit :

I'm glad we both agree on the main points of my proposals :) I have just one question (please see below):

El 14/02/12 12:28, Pierre Raybaut escribió:

Le 14 févr. 2012 à 16:12, "Carlos Córdoba" <ccord...@gmail.com> a écrit :

Hi all,

I guess I got too excited when I introduced these features because it didn't take too much time to do it (usually I spent a lot of time trying to understand/develop new code) and since the easiest way to show new things to users is landing them in trunk, I did it without giving too much thought. Now I realize it was too hasty on my part and that I should have asked for other devs suggestions/comments. This also shows that we need proper review mechanisms, that ironically I've been strongly suggesting the last couple of months!

So here are my proposals:

1. In the short term: Separate quotes completion from braces completion as an option in Preferences and leave it off by default. Give me a week and a half to push several fixes I have drafted for this feature and release 2.1.8.

Ok. As a side note, let's not forget that the feature must be disabled by default on new installations. Changing the default value in config.py or in the appropriate CONF.get call will do this. It will also set the option off for upgrades from v2.1.6 (or earlier) to v2.1.8, but it won't change the option state for upgrades from v2.1.7 to v2.1.8 because the option already exists in the .ini configuration file. But we have to set it off for this kind of upgrade to I think. There is a thing to do in config.py to force using the default values without resetting all features. I'll check this.

Since right now quote completion and brace completion are tied together in a single option, are you saying that we have to disabled the latter for 2.1.8, besides introducing a new and lonely quote completion option?

Oh no, you're right. The fact that we will split the current single option entry in two new options will indeed override settings in all situations mentioned in my previous email. 

So let's forget what I wrote :-)

Cheers

Pierre

[anatoly techtonik]

That's bad. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/spyder/+bug/887177

[anatoly techtonik]

Carlos, can you revert the change for a while, so that the patch can be applied to just released Package in Ubuntu?

[Pierre Raybaut]

I understand this is kind of a crisis situation. Carlos seems offline: I'm on it. I'm sending a patch reverting the feature ASAP. 

-Pierre

Le 20 févr. 2012 à 12:20, anatoly techtonik <tech...@gmail.com> a écrit :

Carlos, can you revert the change for a while, so that the patch can be applied to just released Package in Ubuntu?

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[Carlos Córdoba]

Sorry for my late answer. I just saw the message. I've been working during the weekend and I'm almost done. Even if we revert the feature we have to release a new version, so could you let me finish the fixes? I can upload half of them right now and the rest for late today or at most tomorrow.

El 15/02/12 03:17, Pierre Raybaut escribió:

[Pierre Raybaut]

Of course, you may finish what you started. But there is no place for any mistake here as it will have a huge impact on Spyder's distribution for 2 years, until the next Ubuntu LTS release. 

So what I was about to do was to simply backout all changesets related to this feature. This is brutal but success is guaranteed. This will easily lead to a simple commit to the main branch undoing all these changes and to a single patch for the Ubuntu package (that would be v2.1.7.1). 

What do you think about that?

[Carlos Córdoba]

I thought Ubuntu guys select minor point releases that include bug and security fixes. So I was suggesting to release 2.1.8 and let them pick it up. But if I'm mistaken about it, then what you're suggesting is the best course action (although I agree a brutal one).

El 20/02/12 09:26, Pierre Raybaut escribió:

[Pierre Raybaut]

After reading the discussion on the Ubuntu page linked by Anatoly, I'm getting the impression that it would be best for us to do both:

1. Fix v2.1.7 with a patch (2.1.7.1)

2. Release v2.1.8 after testing it carefully. 

I'm pushing the commit corresponding to point #1 in a few minutes. Please do not push anything meanwhile. 

Then, from this version, we will reintroduce your feature. As it is not a very invasive feature (see the forthcoming commit removing it completely), you may reintroduce it in a single commit. 

Cheers

Pierre

[Carlos Córdoba]

Ok, I hope with the changes I just pushed it'll be a little bit easier for you to remove it :-)

Cheers,
Carlos

El 20/02/12 09:41, Pierre Raybaut escribió:

[Pierre Raybaut]

Actually no...

My brutal but efficient method was based on the fact that -as I
suggested in my previous email- the repository was not changed
meanwhile... I'm afraid I have to reset the repository: I don't have
the time to redo these changes on top of these new revisions of yours.

2012/2/20, Carlos Córdoba <ccord...@gmail.com>:

> Ok, I hope with the changes I just pushed it'll be a little bit easier
> for you to remove it :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Carlos
>
> El 20/02/12 09:41, Pierre Raybaut escribió:
>> After reading the discussion on the Ubuntu page linked by Anatoly, I'm
>> getting the impression that it would be best for us to do both:
>> 1. Fix v2.1.7 with a patch (2.1.7.1)
>> 2. Release v2.1.8 after testing it carefully.
>>
>> I'm pushing the commit corresponding to point #1 in a few minutes.
>> Please do not push anything meanwhile.
>>
>> Then, from this version, we will reintroduce your feature. As it is
>> not a very invasive feature (see the forthcoming commit removing it
>> completely), you may reintroduce it in a single commit.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Pierre
>>
>> Le 20 févr. 2012 à 15:32, "Carlos Córdoba" <ccord...@gmail.com

>> <mailto:ccord...@gmail.com>> a écrit :

>>
>>> I thought Ubuntu guys select minor point releases that include bug
>>> and security fixes. So I was suggesting to release 2.1.8 and let them
>>> pick it up. But if I'm mistaken about it, then what you're suggesting
>>> is the best course action (although I agree a brutal one).
>>>
>>> El 20/02/12 09:26, Pierre Raybaut escribió:
>>>> Of course, you may finish what you started. But there is no place
>>>> for any mistake here as it will have a huge impact on Spyder's
>>>> distribution for 2 years, until the next Ubuntu LTS release.
>>>>
>>>> So what I was about to do was to simply backout all changesets
>>>> related to this feature. This is brutal but success is guaranteed.
>>>> This will easily lead to a simple commit to the main branch undoing
>>>> all these changes and to a single patch for the Ubuntu package (that
>>>> would be v2.1.7.1).
>>>>
>>>> What do you think about that?
>>>>
>>>> Le 20 févr. 2012 à 15:13, "Carlos Córdoba" <ccord...@gmail.com

>>>> <mailto:ccord...@gmail.com>> a écrit :

>>>>
>>>>> Sorry for my late answer. I just saw the message. I've been working
>>>>> during the weekend and I'm almost done. Even if we revert the
>>>>> feature we have to release a new version, so could you let me
>>>>> finish the fixes? I can upload half of them right now and the rest
>>>>> for late today or at most tomorrow.
>>>>>
>>>>> El 15/02/12 03:17, Pierre Raybaut escribió:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Le 15 févr. 2012 à 05:19, "Carlos Córdoba" <ccord...@gmail.com

>>>>>> <mailto:ccord...@gmail.com>> a écrit :

>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm glad we both agree on the main points of my proposals :) I
>>>>>>> have just one question (please see below):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> El 14/02/12 12:28, Pierre Raybaut escribió:
>>>>>>>> Le 14 févr. 2012 à 16:12, "Carlos Córdoba" <ccord...@gmail.com

>>>>>>>> <mailto:ccord...@gmail.com>> a écrit :

>>>>>>>>>> <tech...@gmail.com <mailto:tech...@gmail.com>> a écrit :

>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No need to apologize. It is nice to know that it is something
>>>>>>>>>>> being worked on. I was afraid that the work is abandoned and
>>>>>>>>>>> Spyder is left in the current state. Perhaps it is worth to
>>>>>>>>>>> put these changes off the radar into separate branch if
>>>>>>>>>>> further activity is unlikely to happen anytime soon.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But for now I'd like to understand what's happening. The way
>>>>>>>>>>> to increase visibility that I see is to add numbered
>>>>>>>>>>> description for each separate autocompletion feature to wiki
>>>>>>>>>>> page (probably with +1 button) to see which of them are
>>>>>>>>>>> useful, and which are conflicting. Perhaps debug panel with
>>>>>>>>>>> checkboxes that turn on these autocompletion features and
>>>>>>>>>>> logging for events of these features can make the process
>>>>>>>>>>> more inspiring.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I can't describe the process clearly, but the one user story
>>>>>>>>>>> that is clearly annoying is when you copy/paste some stuff
>>>>>>>>>>> and then put it in quotes.
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> anatoly t.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2012/2/9 Carlos Córdoba <ccord...@gmail.com

>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:ccord...@gmail.com>>

>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry for that (I was the one who introduced those
>>>>>>>>>>> changes). What are your main complaints and what I can do
>>>>>>>>>>> to fix them? Notice that a group of users and me are
>>>>>>>>>>> working to improve the shortcoming of this feature in
>>>>>>>>>>> Issue 872. Unfortunately I haven't had time to work on it
>>>>>>>>>>> during the last couple of weeks.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In principle I could add an option to separate quote
>>>>>>>>>>> completion from brace completion. That would be ok?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> El 09/02/12 06:11, anatoly techtonik escribió:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I find the quotes autocompletion pretty annoying in
>>>>>>>>>>> current repository version (2.1.7+). I don't remember
>>>>>>>>>>> being so constrained with writing in Spyder before.
>>>>>>>>>>> Am I the only one?
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed
>>>>>>>>>>> to the Google Groups "spyder" group.
>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/spyderlib/-/ZmYmb1r6sFEJ.
>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to
>>>>>>>>>>> spyd...@googlegroups.com

>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:spyd...@googlegroups.com>.

>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>>>>>>>> spyderlib+...@googlegroups.com

>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:spyderlib%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/spyderlib?hl=en.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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[Pierre Raybaut]

Please ignore my last message.

Actually I'm pushing my changes in the v21 repository:
https://code.google.com/p/spyderlib.v21/

So I'm not changing the default repository.

Please take a look and eventually test it.

Anatoly, here is the patch from v2.1.7 to v2.1.7.1:
http://spyderlib.googlecode.com/files/spyder_v217_to_v2171.diff
Thanks for alerting us on this urgent matter.

-Pierre

2012/2/20, Pierre Raybaut <pierre....@gmail.com>:

[Pierre Raybaut]

So, now, the plan is not to release a v2.1.8 with the 'automatic colon
insertion' feature fixed.
I think that we should *not* integrate this new feature until v2.2.

Now that the v21 repository has been created:
* the default repository is for v2.2 development:
https://code.google.com/p/spyderlib/source/checkout?repo=default
* the v21 repository is for v2.1 maintenance:
https://code.google.com/p/spyderlib/source/checkout?repo=v21

[Carlos Córdoba]

Ok, thanks a lot for your efforts and quick actions to save the
situation. Since both features (colons and quotes insertion) need a lot
of testing, it was the best thing to do. So from now on I'll continue my
improvements in 2.2. I'll let know the testers in Issue 872.

Cheers,
Carlos

El 20/02/12 11:14, Pierre Raybaut escribió:

[Pierre Raybaut]

Depending on the next comments on the discussion regarding the Ubuntu
package (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/spyder/+bug/887177?comments=all),
I'll rename the version v2.1.7.1 to v2.1.8 and officially release it.

2012/2/20, Pierre Raybaut <pierre....@gmail.com>:

[Carlos Córdoba]

I just saw the new comments, so I think we should release 2.1.8 ASAP.

Thanks again,
Carlos

El 20/02/12 11:26, Pierre Raybaut escribió:

[Pierre Raybaut]

Done.

2012/2/20, Carlos Córdoba <ccord...@gmail.com>:

[anatoly techtonik]

Good job everyone! ;)

[Michael Aye]

On Monday, February 20, 2012 12:08:58 PM UTC-8, anatoly techtonik wrote:

Good job everyone! ;)

Hi there,

I'm a new user of spyder, and I'm missing my colon completion very much from TextMate. Is it still true that I have to go to the development version of 2.2 to get this feature or has there been a back port into 2.1.x? 

[Carlos Córdoba]

Hi Michael,

Yep, you have to grab 2.2 to get colon completion. It wasn't too stable when I introduced in 2.1 but right now is working quite well.

2.2 is about to be released (I hope to do it in about a month) so this won't be a problem anymore.

Cheers,
Carlos

El 15/12/12 16:31, Michael Aye escribió:

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[Steve]

What's going on with debugging support in 2.2?  I posted a request about the roadmap status for 2.2 a while back but no one ever answered...  I've been very successfully using the integrated debugging stuff from jed's devel version for several months.