New Space

[Tom Lynch]

Hello,

The new space is almost upon us, we are finalising the details and about to sign the contract, and would like to facilitate any members who would like to first read the contract before it is signed on your behalf.

If you could please contact us urgently we will be signing this in the next couple of days.

Thanks

Tom

[Luke Watts]

Would it be available to read at Wednesdays meet up?

[Tom Newsom]

Yes, we'll bring it along

On 30 September 2014 07:13, Luke Watts <lu...@thisis.la> wrote:

Would it be available to read at Wednesdays meet up?

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[Tom Newsom]

We have signed the lease.

It is in the mail to the landlord. When we get his signature in return we will pay him the deposit and then we get the keys.

There will soon be a LOT of work. Clear your weekends!

[Gordon Endersby]

Great news.

Gordon

[Tom Newsom]

Here are existing and proposed drawings for the completed scheme. Phase one will just be the front section, plus the inner leaf of the back wall. We will present two options to the landlord, one where the roller shutter is removed and one where it is retained.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/knw478zdeeccqwe/010%20Existing.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qbq6pmv48rcc8oj/011%20Proposed%20-%20Shutter%20removed.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bc9ype3kmgy3xce/012%20Proposed%20-%20Shutter%20retained.pdf?dl=0

[Lauren Shearer]

A lot of work has gone into these and they are beautifully presented.

Both frontages have advantages and disadvantages.
I have reservations over the cost of floating the floor but have had no opportunity to look at rehabilitating what's there myself so defer judgement.

My Sundays are being cleared.

[Tom Lynch]

Hello,

I agree, they are brilliant.

The floor isn't really an option, we either fill it with concrete or build something out of wood... Something needs to be done, and we'd rather have entry level to the door than walking into a stair case and ramp.

Tom

[Tom Newsom]

The raised floor does several things:

1. Keeps our things above water when the Effra floods (or the heavens open like they did in July this year)

2. Creates a clean, dry, flat floor. The current concrete is dirty, prone to the odd puddle and only truly flat towards the back

3. Provides insulation. The cleanest driest concrete slab will still wick the heat away through your feet

There is a debate to be had about the merits of putting the raised floor throughout the space, and we don't neccesarily have to decide it right now. Phase 1 is plenty to be getting on with!

I'll have to choose a better way of rendering the PVC lining, it just comes out as a black blob :D

[Lauren Shearer]

If concrete is chosen as an option, I would love to help out, at least with prep/demolition, retaining if not actual laying.

If floating wood is chosen as an option, I would love to help out, at least with preparation/demo work, laying gal footings for the joists, and I can use a drop saw while retaining 20 digits.

If fundraising is required, I would love to help out.

You get the drift.

I prefer chainsaws though.

[Gordon Endersby]

ThE aversion to concrete and its insulation properties needs some more thought.

Its a quicker and easier method of sorting out the floor but people are afraid it will suck the heat out of your feet and be unpleasant to work on.

I'm sitting in my living room at the moment that sits on a concrete slab.  The whole ground floor is a concrete slab. All it needs is insulation.
In the case of my living room its underlay and carpet.

In the arch we can use any reasonable hard material on top of the concrete. There are a number of solutions. Workshop matting or interlocking tiles as a suggestion.
It doesn't need to be the same all the way through.

In the clean area some carpeting could look good.
The dirty area could be mainly painted concrete with islands of matting where people stand at machinery. I think its called anti fatigue matting.
Wet and kitchen areas some kind of vinyl with underlay.

So concrete can be used and will save us time.
Getting the space up and running quickly.

Gordon

[Lauren Shearer]

I would vouch for carpet squares which tend to be

- cheap, occasionally available 2nd hand

- designed to insulate in the case of concrete slabs

- Industrial wear rated

- fire resistant

It's worth pointing out that slabs are thermal mass rather than just "cooling ". If you can get enough members to pay for heating, and if someone is there most days it may actually be as warm and as cheap as extra insulation and losing it each time the heater's off. 

And don't assume the ground is colder than the air in winter; deep mines need air conditioning. 

I thought of hydronic heating but dismissed it from a cost and thermal expansion / slab on slab expansion mismatch issue. 

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Yours Sincerely,
Lauren Shearer, MBBS

Paediatric Cardiology Advanced Training Registrar (RACP)
Paediatric Pulmonary Hypertension Fellow, Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children
Clinical Tutor, Peninsula Clinical School, Monash University
Phone: 0417 200 101
Email: L.Sh...@Vicpaeds.com

[Tom Newsom]

We costed it and concrete is about twice the price. It's a lot of volume to fill.

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[toby @ tobyz]

> We have signed the lease.

Boom! Well done all involved.

> Here are existing and proposed drawings for the completed scheme.

Great work.

> Phase one will just be the front section, plus the inner leaf of the back wall.

Question based on previous discussions -
Is the back wall going inside of the lean-to, leaving the lean-to there for demolish and rebuild in phase 3?
Or is the back wall flush with the arch end, which means the lean-to will be demolished to clear the way for it.

> The floor isn't really an option, we either fill it with concrete or build something out of wood

> ThE aversion to concrete and its insulation properties needs some more thought.

If we're starting at the front, then I agree we need to raise the floor to the entrance level as a phase 1 job. I've no experience with building in this vein, but surely we can't fill it with concrete though - that's a huge volume, no? Joists seems sensible to me, as apart from material efficiency we can lay services under the floor as required. On that note, most offices I've known have raised floors, using a system of posts and squares.

If we do go with wood, would that be the exposed surface? I hope so, but it comes with a few challenges of it's own, including insulation (eg. air drafts through the gaps sapping heat from feet).

If we do go with concrete for the tinkerspace, set carefully and then polished up does look good, and we could demarcate working areas etc. with rugs / carpet areas. Wall-to-wall carpet would be in danger of looking a little naff.

> There is a debate to be had about the merits of putting the raised floor throughout the space, and we don't neccesarily have to decide it right now.

Yep. I think keeping concrete for a hard workshop area beyond the 'office' tinkerspace makes sense, and doesn't necessarily need to be raised, but regardless, it's a decision (and cost) we can easily defer.

[toby @ tobyz]

Two thoughts on natural light -

Could we have the overpanel as glass bricks, instead of or in addition to the glass brick window? Being higher, this would let the best natural light into the space.

If the back wall inside the arch is permanent, we’re loosing the opportunity to get lots of natural light into the space.

All: what are the functional pros and cons for the shutter?
- Extra security?
- Gives us a graffiti-proof area around the door, could be more welcoming when open?
- Heavy manual task for first and last members in?
- What else…?

[Lauren Shearer]

The shutters advantages are probably

- retained value for the sub lessor in terms of access

- fitting in with the industrial styling of the area

- ablative layer of security instead of the space's doors for graffiti, projectiles, cars

- What else...?

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[Gordon Endersby]

What about the cost of infill with rubble and concrete slab over the top.
Or have you just costed it on a full volume of concrete?

Gordon

[Emile swain]

Awesome. Look forward to seeing the space. 

I have some other observations. Will we have double doors at the entrance. Wide enough for a trolley and or machinery, big awkward  things to go through easily. 

I would keep the shutter and have a bright and airy partition wall to let light in. Second level of security.

In the design have you thought about a faire way through to the back? Again double doors to allow i imagine a laser cutter, tables, etc to get through easily.

Regaurds flooring. I like both ideas. To many pros and cons for each. Again you could do the concrete in stages. 

 

Also good ventilation at both ends. 

[Tom Lynch]

Tom costed rubble and concrete 4 inches thick as standard I believe. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Gordon Endersby]

Im really surprised that its more expensive than a wooden raised floor.
What about time differences?
Is the extra labour/time been considered as well?

Gordon

[Tom Lynch]

Hey,

Time is something we have plenty of in comparison with cash. We'd had about 5 donations so far, evidently people feel they've put in what they can or are willing to, so we have to make the space usable with what we have, and we can't afford to spend large sums of money on time saving activities, and instead have to rely on members to do the work of building the floor.

I think the concrete floor would be nice, it will have a solid feel, and we can use carpet tiles to keep it warm maybe. The main consideration is that the space belongs to the landlord so he may not want a massive concrete slab poured.

Tom

[Tom Lynch]

Hello,

The front entrance will have a two large doors with one fixed closed the majority of the time as it will probably open onto the toilet door.

The shutter really serves no purpose as people aren't going to want to be opening and closing it all the time, so it will just get left up all the time.

The walls will be two layers of 100mm hollow blocks with insulation between the layers, there will be space left for an area of glass block windows.

From what I can understand the likely order of works will be:

1. Front drainage gutter, repair of the soak away.

2. Stripping everything out, including toilet (possible removal of wooden lean to)

3. Construction of back wall with access door.

4. Phase 1: PVC lining, including cutting soak aways the full length and filling with gravel.

5. Decamping from storage into arch.

6. Construction of front wall, toilet and phase 1 flooring. (possible removal of shutter).

7. Phase 1: installation of electrical and data.

8. Fit out of toilet and kitchen.

9. Construction of temporary wall.

10. Occupation

11. Planning for next phase.

Thanks

Tom

[Tom Newsom]

There's a lot of talking points here. I'll try and cover them all.

1. Concrete vs. Wood

Basically it's a matter of voume. We're talking ~56m³ total fill. This is not a small number.

I priced for hardcore plus 100mm concrete plus a levelling screed. Comes to about £6,000 for the whole space, plus another £1,300 if you want a layer of rigid insulation under the screed. The whole space (or however much area you're raising) has to be done in one go, because you can't move rubble and concrete through an operational makerspace. It's irreversible, and it's a lot of trucks coming in and out of the estate.

A timber floor (oriented strand board on 150mm joists on one-block stub walls) works out about £3,500 for the whole space, plus £500 if you insulate it with bog standard batts. It's reversible and can be worked on piecemeal by small teams. Materials for later phases can be carried by hand through phase 1 makerspace. All board-board gaps would be filled with glue and all board-wall gaps filled with expanding foam.

Carpet tiles can be had for very cheap 2nd hand, as can laminate and vinyl. Nowhere would have a raw OSB floor.

2. Rear wall

The priority here is to block out noise to the residential neighbours. We will be doing the rest of the construction work on evenings and weekends, so it's crucial we get this up ASAP. I'd even consider doing it before the strip-out. If we build a single skin of blockwork up against the existing wooden structure, it leaves exactly the right gap to build the insulation and outer skin flush with the outside of the arch later on. We'd put a wide lintel between the piers and block up the opening to be re-opened later when we're ready to rebuild the extension.

3. To shutter or not to shutter

This is purely an option for the landlord in case he wants to hang onto it for future tenants. The mechanism is rather rickety and the small door is much too small to use as the regular entrance. It would therefore remain open if we retained it, except when the space is "closed" ie maybe over Christmas. 

4. Natural light.

Toby - good idea doing the front overpanel in glass blocks.

At the back, we can decide on a natural light solution when we rebuild the extension. Whether that's another glass block overpanel or maybe Velux windows in the extension roof, the design is future-proof.

5. Order of Works

I concur with Tommel's list, except I'd move the rear wall up the order by one.

[Tom Lynch]

What is an overpanel?

[Tom Newsom]

A panel or area of wall above a door or lintel.

Toby's proposal:

​(ignore the text)

[Gordon Endersby]

How secure will the entrance be?

I'm wondering as a lot of businesses in the area would have shutters or grills for overnight.

Will the glass bricks be secure?

Gordon

[Tom Lynch]

That's cool. Would be good if we can get 5 layers so I can put LEDs in them and spell words out.

Sent from my iPhone

On 4 Oct 2014, at 15:53, Tom Newsom <tom.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

A panel or area of wall above a door or lintel.

Toby's proposal:

<glassblockoverpanel.png>
​(ignore the text)

[Tom Lynch]

They are somewhere between the security of a block wall and a glass window. They are harder to break through but they aren't as solid as the wall. That said the wall is a freestanding structure. You could push it over with a car or smash the wooden door in. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Dermot Jones]

Some interesting stuff here.

If we keep the shutter, either out of choice or obligation, it gives us some options. If the shutter is down whenever the place is empty then the inner wall doesn't need to be that secure; meaning we could have plate glass windows in it if we want. However as a railway arch has no vertical walls then we might consider the inside of the wall to be a rare and valuable vertical surface? We could still put glass in the overpanel(s). We probably would need to motorise the shutter to make regular use of it feasible. 

And the timber floor will be very strong, with likely a reinforced section running directly from front doors to back in readiness for heavy loads. Plus we can ventilate underneath it.

And Emile, yes ventilation is very important. Unfortunately air vents also let noise out, so we probably need to get acoustic vents for the back wall.

Tommen, do you have a cubic volume for the space, and was the 53m3 the volume of floor if the whole space was done? Then I can see what kind of ventilation we'd need.

Dermot.

[Lauren Shearer]

I know costing these things is not without effort, so forgive me for asking. 

What about a 50mm overslab, fine aggregate concrete with sand over coarse aggregate and a poly waterproof layer as the break layer. That style needs more frequent expansion gaps and compromise might be made over floor height if a front entry ramp were accepted instead.

On Saturday, October 4, 2014, Dermot Jones <dermot...@gmail.com> wrote:

And the timber floor will be very strong, with likely a reinforced section running directly from front doors to back in readiness for heavy loads. Plus we can ventilate underneath it.

And Emile, yes ventilation is very important. Unfortunately air vents also let noise out, so we probably need to get acoustic vents for the back wall.

Tommen, do you have a cubic volume for the space, and was the 53m3 the volume of floor if the whole space was done? Then I can see what kind of ventilation we'd need 

As for the front wall, I notice Glass Blocks can be had for about £1 per 190x190mm block and if not used as the outermost wall can easily have strips of WS2812s run between layers, in  conduit so that dud strips can be removed. 

Outer wall standards would be more difficult but not impossible. 

[Tom Newsom]

Yes, 56m3 to bring the floor up by 450mm. Air volume of the whole arch is in the order of 500m3

[Tom Lynch]

I think it's pretty well agreed that we are going to have a level landing area if not full length because we the experience to be looking through the space not going down into it.

[Lauren Shearer]

I completely agree that you shouldn't feel like you "descend" into a "pit"

What about looking out over it? Or a longer, gradual ramp?

45cm - a foot and a half - is a long way up to commit raising the whole area to. Of course some of that is constrained by the frontage height.

Addit: I get a strong feeling that seeing is believing, here, and want to emphasize that i know I'm neither a pro or fully informed here. 

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[Tom Lynch]

Hey,

I agree, it's not something we are committing to putting all the way through, but thats why we are phasing the works so we can do something different further down.

Having a long gradual ramp would need longer than the space, and it would still be noticeable, a nice welcoming space as you come in with the clean laptop garden type space in it will be really inviting, and then you can stand at the barrier and look down into the messy space. 

The only thing still unresolved is the noisy space and whether it should all be brought up, personally I think that is overkill. however we loose space having a ramp and stairs down.

Tom

[toby @ tobyz]

On 4 Oct 2014, at 17:43, Tom Lynch <m...@unknowndomain.co.uk> wrote:

> a nice welcoming space as you come in with the clean laptop garden type space in it will be really inviting, and then you can stand at the barrier and look down into the messy space.

This!

> The only thing still unresolved is the noisy space and whether it should all be brought up, personally I think that is overkill. however we loose space having a ramp and stairs down.

Thinking about this, the ramp will have to be reinforced, as it may well be a heavy things hauling ramp as well as disabled access?

[Tom Lynch]

Hello,

This is true, but I don't think we are being realistic about how heavy, heavy is....

The laser cutter is probably the heaviest piece of equipment as it's about 200kg, however thats nothing compared with 6 people standing in a crowed talking which could easily be twice that in the same floor space.

We are talking about what ifs but the future of the space is unlikely to include heavy machinery because we have no three phase power, and the space isn't big enough to dedicate space to such niché tools.

We need to ensure we have a space that allows a broad range of making, so we are never going to be able to have a heavy duty metal working lathe because the space isn't big enough to allocate all that space to a tool like that.

Sorry, just being realistic here.

Tom

[toby @ tobyz]

Hmm. As a factoid tidbit the heaviest unexpected thing I can think of seeing in the uni workshop was an upright piano that got hacked into something or other.

[Tom Lynch]

Let's hope there's no pianos!

[Tom Newsom]

An upright piano is of comparable weight and density as the Trotec laser cutter :)

[Lauren Shearer]

I've made a little mine craft mockup of some of the options discussed here in modded minecraft

The may can be loaded in either Resonant Rise of Yogscast mod packs, downloadabe via the AT launcher (A wrapper/downloader for minecraft)

Level data (decompresss in the "saves" directory of the instance): Dropbox

As always, no viruses known on this end but cybersecurity is everyone's business.

On Saturday, 4 October 2014 23:13:38 UTC+1, Tom Newsom wrote:

An upright piano is of comparable weight and density as the Trotec laser cutter :)

On 4 October 2014 23:09, Tom Lynch <m...@unknowndomain.co.uk> wrote:

Let's hope there's no pianos!

On 4 Oct 2014, at 22:31, toby @ tobyz <oper...@tobyz.net> wrote:

> Hmm. As a factoid tidbit the heaviest unexpected thing I can think of seeing in the uni workshop was an upright piano that got hacked into something or other.
>
>> On 4 Oct 2014, at 18:43, Tom Lynch <m...@unknowndomain.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> This is true, but I don't think we are being realistic about how heavy, heavy is....
>>
>> The laser cutter is probably the heaviest piece of equipment as it's about 200kg, however thats nothing compared with 6 people standing in a crowed talking which could easily be twice that in the same floor space.
>>
>> We are talking about what ifs but the future of the space is unlikely to include heavy machinery because we have no three phase power, and the space isn't big enough to dedicate space to such niché tools.
>>
>> We need to ensure we have a space that allows a broad range of making, so we are never going to be able to have a heavy duty metal working lathe because the space isn't big enough to allocate all that space to a tool like that.
>>
>> Sorry, just being realistic here.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 4 Oct 2014, at 18:28, toby @ tobyz <oper...@tobyz.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 4 Oct 2014, at 17:43, Tom Lynch <m...@unknowndomain.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> a nice welcoming space as you come in with the clean laptop garden type space in it will be really inviting, and then you can stand at the barrier and look down into the messy space.
>>>
>>> This!
>>>
>>>> The only thing still unresolved is the noisy space and whether it should all be brought up, personally I think that is overkill. however we loose space having a ramp and stairs down.
>>>
>>> Thinking about this, the ramp will have to be reinforced, as it may well be a heavy things hauling ramp as well as disabled access?
>>>
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>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "South London Makerspace" group.

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>>
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>
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[Tom Lynch]

I don't think that will load on an iPhone. Could you send screen grabs?

Sent from my iPhone

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[Gordon Endersby]

I dont really play games, so havnt got anything to view these minecraft files on.

Gordon

[Lauren Shearer]

Didn't want to clog people's inboxes, so via dropbox. ~250k each

First group are different frontages and level heights

Second group is just fleshing out a scenario where the shutter is kept with toilet, phase 1 floor, etc

'Almost' to scale (one full block = 1 metre)

GALLERY:

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/hm7pqeer8h8s67j/AADgXQhwqSlBr7hs90PBIVnPa