Truth Or Dare

[bfla...@gmail.com]

As you know there is a great deal of discussion concerning
Hillary's cred and a great deal of discussion about Donald's
wall and who will pay for it.

"Who pays for the wall? We didn't discuss," Trump had said when
asked by a reporter during a news conference following their
meeting in Mexico City. "We did discuss the wall. We didn't
discuss payment of the wall. That'll be for a later date."

But Peña Nieto later claimed the two had discussed the wall
and who would pay for it -- and he had "made it clear" to Trump
it wouldn't be Mexico.

"At the start of the conversation with Donald Trump, I made it
clear that Mexico will not pay for the wall," Peña Nieto tweeted,
after their meeting Wednesday.

Sounds to me like two business men arguing who would pay for lunch.
Goodness gracious, can we believe anything these political days?

[Lawrence Akutagawa]

bflanier wrote in message
news:6d46a97e-7865-41e3...@googlegroups.com...

****** This line separates my response from the foregoing ******

Well...if nothing else, perhaps - just perhaps - Nieto has learned not to
have any more private discussions with the very white The "Chicken Little"
Donald if only because of such "he said...no, he said" consequences. After
all, this very white The "Chicken Little" Donald is the very same guy who
today says that he didn't defraud those Trump University students suing him
and then disparaged the Hispanic US born judge for not dismissing that suit.

[billbowden]

<bfla...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6d46a97e-7865-41e3...@googlegroups.com...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't understand what value a wall has? If the wall is 20 feet high, why
can't the illegals just use 21 foot ladders?

[GLOBALIST]

It will prevent hordes of Mexicans from having "easy" access
And who knows what might run across the top of the wall?
He might pay gang bangers from Chicago to shoot to kill
anyone with a 21 foot ladder.

[wizardr...@msn.com]

I guess I forgot........what did you do to get defrocked?

[islander]

The fence is a red herring intended to distract the public from the more
serious issues of immigration reform. Trump's fence will never be built
because, as you point out, fences don't work. We have already seen this
demonstrated in the fences that have already been built, not only here,
but also in other countries around the world. Here, for example, is a
stretch of steel fence that seemed like a good idea when the built it.
18' tall, but two teenage girls demonstrated how they could scale it in
less than 18 seconds. No ladder needed! And this section of border
fencing cost $4M per mile.

In other sections, they tunneled under it. Someone recently said that
Trump was planning to bury 20 feet of it underground. Not much chance
that this would be a barrier to a tunnel that could easily be dug
slightly deeper.

No, even the East Germans did not prevent people from escaping from East
Berlin with their wall, land mines, guard posts, machine guns and all.

Hard to believe that some Americans are so gullible!

[islander]

Forgot the url:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsaHVHatgok

[Lawrence Akutagawa]

The Old Fool wrote in message
news:036796ca-11cf-4c4f...@googlegroups.com...

I guess I forgot........what did you do to get defrocked?

****** This line separates my response from the foregoing ******

Well...just lookee here, folks - the Old Fool doth striketh anon!

[chuckle, chuckle, chuckle]

[billbowden]

"islander" <no...@priracy.com> wrote in message
news:nqaj63$ndu$1...@dont-email.me...

> that this would be a barrier to a tunnel that could easily be dug heavily

> slightly deeper.
>
> No, even the East Germans did not prevent people from escaping from East
> Berlin with their wall, land mines, guard posts, machine guns and all.
>
> Hard to believe that some Americans are so gullible!
>
>

What would work is the E-verify system where employers are heavely fined for
hiring illegals.That system is banned in California because it is not
perfect and can possibly flag legitimate legal workers. But those problems
can be worked out so the system never rejects a legitimate employee. And
there could be rewards for identifying illegal workers which would encourage
legal employees to identify illegals and collect the reward. Sort of like
the old days when criminals were "Wanted Dead or Alive"



.

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Thu, 1 Sep 2016 19:23:40 -0700, "billbowden"

>"islander" <no...@priracy.com> wrote in message

<snip>

>> The fence is a red herring intended to distract the public from the more
>> serious issues of immigration reform. Trump's fence will never be built
>> because, as you point out, fences don't work. We have already seen this
>> demonstrated in the fences that have already been built, not only here,
>> but also in other countries around the world. Here, for example, is a
>> stretch of steel fence that seemed like a good idea when the built it. 18'
>> tall, but two teenage girls demonstrated how they could scale it in less
>> than 18 seconds. No ladder needed! And this section of border fencing
>> cost $4M per mile.
>>
>> In other sections, they tunneled under it. Someone recently said that
>> Trump was planning to bury 20 feet of it underground. Not much chance
>> that this would be a barrier to a tunnel that could easily be dug heavily
>> slightly deeper.
>>
>> No, even the East Germans did not prevent people from escaping from East
>> Berlin with their wall, land mines, guard posts, machine guns and all.
>>
>> Hard to believe that some Americans are so gullible!
>>
>>
>
>What would work is the E-verify system where employers are heavely fined for
>hiring illegals.That system is banned in California because it is not
>perfect and can possibly flag legitimate legal workers. But those problems
>can be worked out so the system never rejects a legitimate employee. And
>there could be rewards for identifying illegal workers which would encourage
>legal employees to identify illegals and collect the reward. Sort of like
>the old days when criminals were "Wanted Dead or Alive"

I'm a resident alien and if my status were questioned there
would be no difficulty at all establishing that it was valid.

As to "immigration reform", I'm not sure what that means.
Does it mean making sure that illegal immigrants can be
detected and deported, or does it mean that every Tom
Dick and Harry from entities that conspicuously contain a
disproportionate number of people who wish to injure the
United States must be allowed to walk in, stay, and plot
destruction, so as not to unbalance Politically Correct
criteria espoused by people who are crazy in a different
way than myself?

[El Castor]

Liberals want open borders. Walls don't work is their argument, but
why do you suppose they are so freaked out by walls? Because they do
work:

"Walls Work - European nations have employed them — to great success"
http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/walls-work/

"'It works': Yuma's fence, manpower make border nearly impenetrable"
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/10/21/it-works-yuma-fence-manpower-make-border-nearly-impenetrable.html

"Where U.S.-Mexico border fence is tall, it works"
http://archive.azcentral.com/news/articles/0331yuma-wall0331-ON.html

"Israel Builds Sinai Border Fence; Illegal Crossings Drop 99.9%"
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2013/06/04/israel-builds-new-border-fence-illegal-crossings-drop-99-9/

[Gary]

On Thu, 1 Sep 2016 16:28:26 -0700, "billbowden"
<bpe...@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote:

>

A wall is no good. What they need to do is dig a machine gun nest about every
1000 feet along the border. And anybody approaching from the south -- gets
shot. Even Wetbacks will (eventually) respect that.

[wizardr...@msn.com]

Good idea, but have an electrified fence behind them, in case any belly past them, and audio/ vibration amplifiers to detect tunneling.

[El Castor]

On Fri, 2 Sep 2016 06:02:47 -0700 (PDT), wizardr...@msn.com
wrote:

>Good idea, but have an electrified fence behind them, in case any belly past them, and audio/ vibration amplifiers to detect tunneling.

Something like half of illegals are visa overstays. We need to do
something about that, too. No need to shoot anyone -- just register
passports, daily fines, deportation, and a violator blacklist -- which
is what they do in China. Oh, and fences/walls DO WORK. (-8

[islander]

Democrats have been arguing for years to improve and enforce the
E-verify system, but Republicans tend to side with the business
interests in cheap labor. As a result, immigrants are attracted by the
jobs and are either paid under the table or use stolen identities.

[islander]

There is nothing in the Comprehensive Integration Reform Act of 2015
that was passed by the Senate, but never even got a hearing in the
House. Instead, it focused on employment related immigration including
the several forms of visas that are granted for work related entry and
the flow of primarily Mexican immigrants across the southern border.

Otherwise, what remains largely unaddressed is the compassionate
acceptance of refugees who are fleeing the wars in the Middle East.
Sadly, it is largely our fault that there is so much civil unrest in the
region and we share a large part of the responsibility for the emergence
of al Qaeda and subsequently for ISIL. I would ask, what right do we
have to not do what we can to ease the misery of the people whose lives
have been ruined? Accepting only 10,000 of these refugees and then only
in what appears to be a long and arduous process is far from accepting
our share of the responsibility for these people. Hillary's proposal to
increase this to 65,000 is still a pittance in comparison to the need.
Are we so insecure that we cannot step up to help meet this humanitarian
crisis?

[islander]

You seem to be under the impression that threat of penalties will work.
I don't know about fines, but when you enter the country you do register
your passport at the point of entry, you are subject to deportation if
you overstay your visa, and you are subject to a three year or ten year
(depending on how long you overstayed your visa) during which you are
blacklisted and cannot reenter the country. In addition, if you
overstay your visa, you are prohibited from applying for a time
extension. This is all pretty much a "no nonsense" situation and I know
people who have been severely penalized for not playing exactly by the
rules. My next door neighbor married a Chinese woman who visited the US
on a visa, but he spent three years and a great deal of money working
his way through the various agencies before he was finally able to bring
her to this country. He has a really negative opinion of the multiple
agencies that seemed intent to throw up barriers.

If the threat is one of terrorism, there is no way that is likely to be
alleviated by preventing overstays. Anyone intent on committing an act
of terror is not likely to violate the rules and risk being deported.

Otherwise, I agree that overstays are a problem. It is easy for someone
to disappear in this country. We have no mechanism for tracking people,
nor are we likely to implement such a mechanism because of privacy
concerns that would impact the larger population. We are not likely to
implement a "papers please" law.

[bfla...@gmail.com]

On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 11:02:17 AM UTC-7, islander wrote:
> There is nothing in the Comprehensive Integration Reform Act of 2015 ...

The Republicans will never accept "amnesty" because they believe
(and probably rightly so) that that cohort will vote Democratic.

It is all politics of the lowest form. Unfortunately, the Republicans
are caught between Scylla and Charybdis. They want the cheap labor
for their business but don't want folks who vote Democratic because they
might have to pay livable wages.

[Lawrence Akutagawa]

bflanier wrote in message
news:41cf8c17-fb2c-41e8...@googlegroups.com...

****** This line separates my response from the foregoing ******

Now there, bflanier, you've struck a chord over which I have been wondering
(wandering?).
Say that the very white The "Chicken Little" Donald indeed becomes US
president and succeeds beyond his (and his cohorts') wildest dreams in fact
deporting each and every single solitary illegal immigrant:
Who maintains the gardens at the Trump properties?
Who cleans the Trump properties?
Who cooks the Trump meals?
Who chauffeurs the Trump vehicles?
Who hauls the Trump trash?
Who repairs the roofs of the Trump's properties?
Who paints the Trump's properties?
Who serves the Trump's meals?
Who mans the reception desk of the Trump properties?
Who tends to plumbing problems at the Trump properties?
Who works as the Trump servants?
etc., etc., etc.

Are folks like the Village Idiot, the Old Fool, their respective kinfolks,
and the ilk willing to take and in fact will take on these now vacant jobs
for the same wages/salaries? Or will we see images of the very white The
"Chicken Little" Donald cleaning his very own properties/hauling his own
trash to the landfill/cooking his own meals, etc.? is this just an example
of the very white The "Chicken Little" Donald shooting himself in the foot
big time? As you can well see, this is an issue over which to much
wonder/wander.

[El Castor]

Do you also support catch and deport to country of origin, rather than
the current system of catch and release -- in the hope that they will
show up for a court date with an immigration judge -- which they never
do?

Do you support deportation of aliens who commit crimes on US soil? And
if those deported criminals (and I do mean real criminals -- not just
illegal aliens) do you support prison sentences, followed by
deportation?

Do you support tracking of visa overstayed, fines, deportation, and
for flagrant violators -- blacklisting so that they cannot receive
subsequent visas?

By the way, for those law abiding aliens who have been here many
years, I do support some sort of legal status that would allow them to
remain.

[El Castor]

Currently we do not maintain biometric data, such as fingerprints, on
Visa visitors, nor do we have a database that matches arrivals with
departures. A database and biometric data would allow us to track the
magnitude of overstays, and prevent those overstays from obtaining
anything, like a drivers license, that required biometric data. Are
you OK with that?

[El Castor]

Yes, absolutely!!!

[wolfbat359]

Refugees also come into the US from the Mexican border who had to live and are living the terror created by the US and which is continuing under the governments we installed. They should get asylum but the rarely do

[El Castor]

Oops -- the above paragraph should read ...

Do you support deportation of aliens who commit crimes on US soil? And
if those deported criminals (and I do mean real criminals -- not just

illegal aliens) should return, do you support prison sentences,

[islander]

Fingerprints are required for almost all visa applicants for U.S. visas.
This is a world-wide program.
http://www.immihelp.com/visas/us-visa-fingerprint-collection.html

USCIS has a visa monitoring program for some categories of visas, not
all. Obama wanted to strengthen this program, but was not able to get
it through Congress. Driver's licenses are the responsibility of the
states, so it is essentially a mish-mash of sometimes conflicting
requirements.

Generally, it is felt that a heavy handed visa monitoring program would
only force visa overstays more underground than they presently are.

Personally, I would favor a system that would track all financial
transactions subject to warrant access to that data. There are
proposals to eliminate all cash transactions (at least for larger
denomination bills) so that a data record would exist for all
transactions. Cut off financial anonymity and you would solve a lot of
illegal acts.

[islander]

The immigration reform act did not include amnesty. It did provide for
work permits, but those would not allow anyone to vote. It also
provided for a path to citizenship, but by a path much more arduous than
those already in line.

The amnesty is yet another of the red herrings involving immigration.

[mg]

We political pundits spend a lot of time figuring out ways to solve
problems that politicians don't want to solve. That makes us feel
warm and fuzzy and it keeps us appropriately busy, too, and then we
wonder why the Washington establishment is to dumb to find a
solution. What we should be wondering about, though, is why our
parents raised such stupid children.

[billbowden]

<bfla...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:41cf8c17-fb2c-41e8...@googlegroups.com...

I know a legal immigrant from Mexico who will become a US citizen before the
November election and is going to vote for Trump as his first election
experience. He hates illegals who suck off the system.

[El Castor]

Requiring fingerprints is all well and good, but until they are
incorporated into a biometric database that is checked on departure,
of what use are they in controlling visa overstays?

None.

>
>USCIS has a visa monitoring program for some categories of visas, not
>all. Obama wanted to strengthen this program, but was not able to get
>it through Congress. Driver's licenses are the responsibility of the
>states, so it is essentially a mish-mash of sometimes conflicting
>requirements.

Oh? Couldn't get "it", whatever "it" was, through congress? Cite?

>Generally, it is felt that a heavy handed visa monitoring program would
>only force visa overstays more underground than they presently are.

Another weak excuse from the open border club. How do they go "more
underground"? Using this logic, perhaps all criminal statutes should
be softened? Or, if we toughened up the laws on visa overstays, maybe
many would decide not to do it in the first place -- which is the
idea.

>Personally, I would favor a system that would track all financial
>transactions subject to warrant access to that data. There are
>proposals to eliminate all cash transactions (at least for larger
>denomination bills) so that a data record would exist for all
>transactions. Cut off financial anonymity and you would solve a lot of
>illegal acts.

Aren't we talking about immigration? Other than around the fringes,
what do financial transactions have to do with immigration?

[Gary]

I can tell you are greatly concerned about the health and well-being of the
migrating Mexicans. Maybe you should write a essay telling all of us working
people what all we owe the migrants. You know -- how many new welfare programs
we need to initiate. You could all it: "Welfare for Wandering Wetbacks" :-)

[islander]

Yes, there was the surge of mostly children from El Salvador, Guatemala,
Honduras and Nicaragua last spring. They were refugees from the gangs in
those countries who were created by our drug war.

They were allowed to enter the country at the border, sparking claims
from the Republicans that we were allowing an open border. They were
collected and housed until a court hearing could be held for each of
them to determine their fate. Often they were just confused about what
was happening to them and their defense was hurried, harried, and pretty
much hit or miss. Send them back to the horror of their native country?
Sadly, there were those in this country who argued for exactly that!
No terror threat to the US and no competition for jobs. They were just
innocent kids.

[wolfbat359]

If it was not for migrating Mexicans, a significant amount of crops would not get harvested. Low pay and back breaking work most Americans don't want.

[islander]

Not as easy as it sounds and catch and release is not current US
practice in all cases. It depends on the situation for the individual.
What if the country of origin refuses to accept them? What if they are
the victims of the gangs in those countries and subject to abuse or
death? Illegal entry is a misdemeanor and we don't have the resources
to jail everyone who is only charged with a misdemeanor.

>
> Do you support deportation of aliens who commit crimes on US soil? And
> if those deported criminals (and I do mean real criminals -- not just
> illegal aliens) do you support prison sentences, followed by
> deportation?

Aliens who commit a crime on US soil are usually deported. But,
depending on the nature of the crime and the agreements with their
native countries, they can be tried, convicted and jailed in the US.
Those who commit crimes in the US are given highest priority by ICE and
are not caught and released.

>
> Do you support tracking of visa overstayed, fines, deportation, and
> for flagrant violators -- blacklisting so that they cannot receive
> subsequent visas?

Asked and answered elsewhere in this thread.

>
> By the way, for those law abiding aliens who have been here many
> years, I do support some sort of legal status that would allow them to
> remain.
>

Good! Then you disagree with Trump on how to deal with the roughly 11
million aliens who are in this country illegally.

[islander]

The entry-exit problem was part of legislation passed during the Bush
administration, enacted as 8 US Code 1187 Sections (h)&(i), but has
proved to be much more difficult than anticipated, not the least of
which has been the opposition by companies involved in the tourism
business. Addressing this problem was part of the debate over
immigration reform leading to the Immigration Reform Act of 2015, passed
by the Senate, but which never was given a vote in the House. But, the
fundamental problem is that no one knows how to solve the exit part of
the problem. Our immigration system is set up to screen at point of
entry, but not at exit. It would essentially double the cost and delays
incurred in international travel.

>
>> Generally, it is felt that a heavy handed visa monitoring program would
>> only force visa overstays more underground than they presently are.
>
> Another weak excuse from the open border club. How do they go "more
> underground"? Using this logic, perhaps all criminal statutes should
> be softened? Or, if we toughened up the laws on visa overstays, maybe
> many would decide not to do it in the first place -- which is the
> idea.
>
>> Personally, I would favor a system that would track all financial
>> transactions subject to warrant access to that data. There are
>> proposals to eliminate all cash transactions (at least for larger
>> denomination bills) so that a data record would exist for all
>> transactions. Cut off financial anonymity and you would solve a lot of
>> illegal acts.
>
> Aren't we talking about immigration? Other than around the fringes,
> what do financial transactions have to do with immigration?
>

One cannot live in this country without money. If a money trail were to
exist for all financial transactions, there would be evidence to track
and prosecute not only aliens who are here illegally, but those who
commit a wide range of crimes.

[Gary]

Yep ! If they would spend as much time and energy to improve their native
country -- as they do trying to enter ours -- we might all be better off.

>Sadly, there were those in this country who argued for exactly that!
>No terror threat to the US and no competition for jobs. They were just
>innocent kids.

Back when I was "just an innocent kid" -- I wanted to migrate to Australia. So
I wrote their embassy telling them I'd be coming soon. They answered me and
told me the only immigrants they needed that year were physicians and welders.
And if I wasn't one -- I had better stay in my native country.

If other countries do it -- why can't we ?

[Gary]

On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 07:09:42 -0700 (PDT), wolfbat359 <wolfb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Back before welfare programs were invented -- we had lots of field workers.

[wolfbat359]

And when exactly was this?

[El Castor]

In other words -- No.

>> Do you support deportation of aliens who commit crimes on US soil? And
>> if those deported criminals (and I do mean real criminals -- not just
>> illegal aliens) do you support prison sentences, followed by
>> deportation?
>Aliens who commit a crime on US soil are usually deported. But,
>depending on the nature of the crime and the agreements with their
>native countries, they can be tried, convicted and jailed in the US.
>Those who commit crimes in the US are given highest priority by ICE and
>are not caught and released.

And if a criminal, after being deported, returns, do you support a
prison sentence, followed by deportation?

The Kate Steinle case comes to mind. Her killer, a criminal, was
deported 5 times, stole a gun, and murdered her.

>> Do you support tracking of visa overstayed, fines, deportation, and
>> for flagrant violators -- blacklisting so that they cannot receive
>> subsequent visas?
>Asked and answered elsewhere in this thread.

Asked, and not answered -- in other words -- No.

>> By the way, for those law abiding aliens who have been here many
>> years, I do support some sort of legal status that would allow them to
>> remain.
>>
>Good! Then you disagree with Trump on how to deal with the roughly 11
>million aliens who are in this country illegally.
>

Possibly, however he seems to have come around to my way of thinking.

By the way -- you have said you support E-Verify. Those 11 million
already here could not pass an E-Verify check. How do you propose they
support themselves?

[El Castor]

Please explain. What kind of money trail? For what transactions? If I
pay cash at a supermarket, would that be "tracked"? Tracked by whom?
As it is, all $10K deposits in a bank are reported. What more do you
want?

[islander]

Back before slavery was eliminated -- we had lots of field workers.

[mg]

Actually, Gary, I'm one of the most anti-immigrant people on this
newsgroup. However, telling politicians how to stop immigration is
like telling Africans how to put a condom on. They know how to put
it on. They just don't want to and the same is true of establishment
politicians. They know how to stop immigration. They just don't want
to.

[Gary]

Yeah, I suppose you are right. And I do get your point. We know the
politicians in the Congress and White House are all bought and paid for. What
I really would like to know is -- who owns them ?

[Gary]

True. I had never thought of this before, but if there had been no
abolition, there would have been no need for welfare. And back in the 1850s
a slave was worth -- on average -- about $1,000. ($25,000 in todays money)

The current black population would be worth about $1 trillion. The current
asset value plus the loss of welfare payments -- might have balanced our budget.
Oh course, Abe Lincoln had no way of knowing this.

[billbowden]

"islander" <no...@priracy.com> wrote in message

news:nqcdtk$6q8$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 9/1/2016 7:23 PM, billbowden wrote:
>> "islander" <no...@priracy.com> wrote in message

Can you cite some Republicans who are against the E-Verify system?

[islander]

This is why we need immigration reform. The Immigration Reform Act of
2015, as passed by the Senate, but denied a vote in the House by the
Republicans, would have been a good start. Bottom line, immigrants who
are here illegally need a way to get work permits.

[islander]

Please try to pay attention. There are proposals to eliminate all cash

transactions (at least for larger denomination bills) so that a data

record would exist for all transactions. I buy groceries with my credit
card and the issuing company maintains a record of that transaction. If
I pay with a check, my bank maintains a record of that transaction. If
any law enforcement agency wants to know what I am spending money on,
they only need to get a warrant.

[islander]

E-Verify is presently a voluntary system, in other words, employers are
not required to use it. In 2011, probably with an eye on the 2012
election, Lamar Smith (R-TX) drafted a bill which would mandate use of
E-Verify. He ran into stiff opposition from fellow Republicans of the
ultra conservative, tea-party and Libertarian groups. The claim was
that it would create a national ID system, deny individuals the right to
seek work, harm small businesses, increase identity theft, and force
employers to do immigration enforcement. 27 Republicans signed a letter
to Smith opposing the bill. It never reached the floor of the 112th
House. The bill has been reintroduced in 2013 and 2015, all to no avail.

[mg]

In the case of the Republican party, the corporations own them and
the Tea Party has a large influence. In the case of the Democratic
party, the corporations own them and African Americans and Latinos
own them.



-----------------------------------------------------
The middle class is a milk cow with millions of tits.

[El Castor]

Republicans like myself have always supported that, but only when the
borders and the visa system have been secured -- something you open
border liberals have steadfastly resisted.

[El Castor]

Sounds like 1984.

[islander]

I'm sorry, but Republicans have a credibility problem with that. This
is not to say that you personally supported work permits, but the
Republicans have been insistent that work permits were amnesty. The
compromise Immigration Reform Act of 2015, passed by the Senate, but
denied a vote in the House by the Republicans would have dramatically
increased the budget for border security and would probably have gotten
a majority of the House to approve it. Unfortunately, the right wing of
the Republican party opposed it and the Hastert rule was invoked by the
Republican leadership.

Otherwise, the red herring of closing the border before anything else
can be considered is used by the political right to prevent any progress
on this issue. What constitutes success in closing the border? Give us
a metric on what constitutes success? I didn't think so.

[islander]

Why? This proposal still honors access by legal warrant. It also does
not involve government surveillance, only that the government can gain
access to financial institution's information through legal process.
What, exactly, is your problem with this? Do you favor protection of
criminal acts, even when protected by the courts?

[El Castor]

Closing the border is far from a red herring. Those opposed to open
borders realize that the 11 million illegals already here are well
established, with families, homes, jobs, and businesses. Many (most?)
have children who are birth right, born here citizens. To uproot and
deport those people would be impossible, but beyond that it would be a
crime against humanity.

However, I also realize that Hispanic immigration has deprived Black
Americans of millions of job opportunities (an argument that I made
long before Trump), and can't continue unchecked. Granting some form
of legal status to those already here, before the borders are
controlled would just be an open invitation for a human tidal wave to
engulf the United States. So what metric to use? Before we get to
metrics, we need to see a genuine authentic effort on the part of the
federal government. Excuses, lies, and bullshit are not enough, and
that is all you, and people like you, have to offer.

[El Castor]

What criminal acts? I use cash in gas stations, restaurants, and some
other local businesses, as do lots of other people, because credit and
debit card info is constantly being stolen. Those are the criminal
acts that concern me. What criminal acts are you worried about?

[bfla...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 11:45:38 AM UTC-7, islander wrote:
> I'm sorry, but Republicans have a credibility problem with that....

I guess EC is too young to recall that Saint Reagan (aka Ronny Raygun)
signed an amnesty bill ago. It was called The Immigration Reform and
Control Act enacted November 6, 1986, also known as the Simpson–Mazzoli
Act.

The Act required employers to attest to their employees' immigration
status;made it illegal to hire or recruit illegal immigrants knowingly;
legalized certain seasonal agricultural illegal immigrants, and;
legalized illegal immigrants who entered the United States before
January 1, 1982 and had resided there continuously with the penalty
of a fine, back taxes due, and admission of guilt; candidates were
required to prove that they were not guilty of crimes, that they were
in the country before January 1, 1982, and that they possessed minimal knowledge about U.S. history, government, and the English language.

At the time, the Immigration and Naturalization Service estimated that
about four million illegal immigrants would apply for legal status
through the act and that roughly half of them would be eligible.

[billbowden]

"islander" <no...@priracy.com> wrote in message

news:nqfn15$1or$1...@dont-email.me...

What about pan handlers? How will they make a living? I was in a gas station
the other day when a pan handler waited until my hands were occupied and I
couldn't walk away. She stood right in front of me while my hands were
occupied and said "excuse me sir" and then explained her problems. So, I
quietly listened to her pitch and then explained that I only use a debit
card and carried no cash, and couldn't help with her problems. But another
time at the same station, some guy on a bike with a flat tire wanted to pay
me $20 for a ride because he was in hurry and his cell phone battery was
dead. I thought it might be a setup, but he seemed like a nice guy, so I let
him throw the bike in the truck and gave him a ride a couple miles, and he
gave me $20. I could use a few more of those.

[El Castor]

Panhandlers? Islander has a solution! Tax the rich -- until they
aren't rich.

[islander]

The majority of Americans including me would agree with your statement,
"...the 11 million illegals already here are well

established, with families, homes, jobs, and businesses. Many (most?)
have children who are birth right, born here citizens. To uproot and
deport those people would be impossible, but beyond that it would be a
crime against humanity."

It is the Republican leadership who refused to even bring the
Immigration Reform Act of 2015 to a vote in the House where it would
likely have passed with bipartisan support.

So, before you complain about the government, perhaps you should look at
the people who conservatives voted into office.

[islander]

This act was passed and implemented in public law.
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUTE-100/pdf/STATUTE-100-Pg3445.pdf

Reading through, it seems pretty comprehensive, even including
proscribed penalties for employers found guilty of hiring aliens who
entered the country illegally - five years in prison for each person
hired in violation of the law.

I wonder why it didn't work. There was a lot of tinkering with
immigration law subsequent to this. Was it repealed in whole or part?
Was it impossible to enforce? Has it just been ignored?

[islander]

Anything from tracking down deadbeat dads to breaking up networks that
support terrorism. Imagine how illegal drug deals would be possible if
every transaction could be traced. You are protected against loss on
your credit card and to a lesser extent on your debit card. Your
protection against someone scamming you or stealing your wallet is far
less than the protection that you enjoy for your credit cards.

[islander]

This is why I qualified the proposals to eliminate cash to at least
eliminate larger denomination bills. The role of cash in crime is
mostly about $100 bills. I'm inclined to also eliminate $50 bills,
maybe even $20 bills. I doubt that you or I would be inclined to give a
pan handler a $20 and it would not be much of a change in your example
of the guy with a flat tire for him to give you two $10 bills or offer
to compensate you in some other way. Personally, I would not accept
compensation for a charitable act.

We take using cash for granted although use of credit cards is becoming
pervasive. I think that eliminating cash is (or at least becoming) much
more an issue of privacy than convenience. Unfortunately the anonymity
of cash transactions conceals a lot of unsavory acts and the issue of
privacy can be solved.

[El Castor]

Still sounds like 1984 to me.

"“Always eyes watching you and the voice enveloping you. Asleep or
awake, indoors or out of doors, in the bath or bed- no escape. Nothing
was your own except the few cubic centimeters in your skull.”
George Orwell, 1984

>You are protected against loss on
>your credit card and to a lesser extent on your debit card. Your
>protection against someone scamming you or stealing your wallet is far
>less than the protection that you enjoy for your credit cards.

Debit cards are definitely much worse. However, as credit cards go,
I've been through the Target hack as well as Home Depot and an
insurance company. No thanks on that hassle. It's just as easy to pull
a twenty out of my wallet as a credit card, although the new chipped
cards are somewhat safer. Good idea with them to use a shielded
wallet.

[El Castor]

So, eliminate hundreds and fifties. There are so many counterfeit
hundreds floating around that local merchants won't take them, and I
wouldn't be caught dead with one. Let's face it, more and more
commerce is on the Internet theses days and that is all done with
plastic.

>We take using cash for granted although use of credit cards is becoming
>pervasive. I think that eliminating cash is (or at least becoming) much
>more an issue of privacy than convenience. Unfortunately the anonymity
>of cash transactions conceals a lot of unsavory acts and the issue of
>privacy can be solved.
>

The issue of Big Brother will never be solved.

[islander]

At least not to the satisfaction of the Libertarians.

[islander]

There are specific things that need to be done to make the chipped cards
secure. The credit card companies resist improving security because it
increases their costs. Interestingly, the machines here that use the
chip require that the card be inserted into the reader in order to
shield the interrogation by those who attempt to intercept the identity
of the customer. As long as the laws that protect credit card owners
remain in place, the credit card companies eat the costs of fraud. This
is one of the reasons that the banks fought so hard to prevent the
establishment and function of the Consumer Finacial Protection Bureau.
Thank you Elizabeth Warren!

Now if we could just get the same protection for debit cards!

[El Castor]

Republicans refuse to vote for immigration reform as long as the
borders are still open. They do not for a minute believe Democrat
promises to secure the border AFTER reform is passed. I am in complete
support of that position. You, and your endless excuses, are a prime
example of why Democrats can't be trusted. CLOSE THE BORDER FIRST.

[wolfbat359]

And how many years will it take for Trump to build his wall?

[El Castor]

At the time I retired I was working in my bank's technology center in
San Francisco -- mainly in support of Home Banking, but there was also
a small department concentrating on the development of chipped cards.
The 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta was a big moment for that group.
Banks were promoting chipped cards, and this was going to be a big
test of public acceptance. So, my bank, along with others, prepared
free $5 chipped Olympic cards which were handed out by the bushel to
visitors to the games (I still have 4 of those cards.). Chip readers
were installed all over town, and the tourists were invited to use
them. It was a monumental flop. The tourists kept the cards as
souvenirs, and merchants all over the country had no interest in
spending the money on chip readers. It took the Target fiasco to
develop interest in chips. BTW, my debit card is chipped, but I only
use it in bank ATMs.

[El Castor]

I am no libertarian. The idea that I should be forced to use plastic
everywhere, so Big Brother can constantly peer over my shoulder, I
find highly repulsive.

[rumpelstiltskin]

Why does anyone use Debit Cards? Unless they just can't
stand not to spend money if credit is available to them, I
can't think of a single way in which they're superior to credit
cards. With a credit card, if somebody charges your card
illegally, you can have the charge removed without any hassle.
I did that once with a card that was used to run up a couple
of charges in Florida. I'd never seen the card, which as I
recall was an automatic renewal card. I had an outside
mailbox at the time, so somebody might have stolen it
out of my mailbox, or perhaps it was just delivered to a
wrong address. With a debit card, I might have had a
lot more trouble getting the charges reversed. With the
credit card, all it took was one short phone call.

I don't get it. I don't understand why anybody would
want a debit card instead of a credit card. The only
debit card I ever had was from my bank, since my bank
once only had debit cards to withdraw cash (or perhaps
I was misinformed at the time). As soon as I found out
I could have a card that was for ATM only, I immediately
had it sent to me, and as soon as it arrived I got rid of
the debit card in my usual way for getting rid of sensitive
information, which is to scissor out the sensitive
information then take the pieces to the toilet, cut them
into ten or twenty little bits, then flush them. If the KGB
has somebody filtering my toilet flushes to collect the
little pieces and put them back together, I guess I'll be
screwed, but so far the KGB hasn't done that, or at least
not to my knowledge but there is always the possibility
they are inspecting my flushes, but don't want to show
their hand until I flush something really valuable to them.

I used to burn sensitive paper in the toilet bowl, but
that discolored the toilet bowl - permanently, I thought,
until my son showed me that if one covers the
discolored areas of a toilet bowl with paper towelling
soaked with white distilled vinegar, and leaves the
paper towelling in place overnight, the discoloration
vanishes, like magic. You may have to go over the
bowl afterwards with a toilet brush after flushing the
paper towels, The discoloration is detached though,
so just one effortless pass with the toilet brush will
finish the job.

[billbowden]

"El Castor" <DrE...@justuschickens.com> wrote in message
news:kqfrsbpv7nsdri0s9...@4ax.com...

We should also eliminate pennies. What a hassle when the grocery bill is $7
and 3 cents and you have dig in the pocket for 3 cents while 5 other people
are standing in line wishing you would hurry up. Another problem is little
old ladies buying 100 items while I'm standing in line behind them with 2
items and they never let me go ahead in the line. And then they start
shooting the brease with the cashier talking about their grand kids while
I'm still waiting.in line.

[billbowden]

"rumpelstiltskin" <x...@y.com> wrote in message
news:aamrsblbu4ur671fi...@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 08:25:00 -0700, islander <no...@priracy.com> wrote:
>
>>On 9/4/2016 12:42 PM, El Castor wrote:
>>> On Sun, 4 Sep 2016 11:51:21 -0700, islander <no...@priracy.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 9/4/2016 2:10 AM, El Castor wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 16:40:22 -0700, islander <no...@priracy.com> wrote:
>>>>> Sounds like 1984.
>>>>>
>>>> Why? This proposal still honors access by legal warrant. It also does
>>>> not involve government surveillance, only that the government can gain
>>>> access to financial institution's information through legal process.
>>>> What, exactly, is your problem with this? Do you favor protection of
>>>> criminal acts, even when protected by the courts?
>>>
>>> What criminal acts? I use cash in gas stations, restaurants, and some
>>> other local businesses, as do lots of other people, because credit and
>>> debit card info is constantly being stolen. Those are the criminal
>>> acts that concern me. What criminal acts are you worried about?
>>>
>>Anything from tracking down deadbeat dads to breaking up networks that
>>support terrorism. Imagine how illegal drug deals would be possible if
>>every transaction could be traced. You are protected against loss on
>>your credit card and to a lesser extent on your debit card. Your
>>protection against someone scamming you or stealing your wallet is far
>>less than the protection that you enjoy for your credit cards.
>
>
> Why does anyone use Debit Cards?

Don't you have to make payments every month on a credit card? I only use a
debit card so I don't have to make payments which I might forget and then
get hit with some charge for being late. My bank keeps sending me offers for
a credit card, but I never respond. They must have some reason for insisting
I get a credit card?

[islander]

Then you should find it highly repulsive that this is exactly the
situation that exists today every time you use plastic. While there are
laws that protect you from Big Brother, there are no laws that protect
you from being profiled by the bank that offered you the plastic.

[islander]

On 9/5/2016 3:53 PM, billbowden wrote:
> We should also eliminate pennies. What a hassle when the grocery bill is $7
> and 3 cents and you have dig in the pocket for 3 cents while 5 other people
> are standing in line wishing you would hurry up. Another problem is little
> old ladies buying 100 items while I'm standing in line behind them with 2
> items and they never let me go ahead in the line. And then they start
> shooting the brease with the cashier talking about their grand kids while
> I'm still waiting.in line.

Cherish the old ladies. They are probably someone's grandmother.

What is so important about what is going on in your life that you cannot
spare a couple of minutes?

[islander]

On 9/5/2016 4:03 PM, billbowden wrote:
> Don't you have to make payments every month on a credit card? I only use a
> debit card so I don't have to make payments which I might forget and then
> get hit with some charge for being late. My bank keeps sending me offers for
> a credit card, but I never respond. They must have some reason for insisting
> I get a credit card?

We have had our credit card company paid directly by the bank. They
still send us an invoice so that we can verify that the charges are
legitimate and have had no problem settling disputes.

The reason that banks still offer credit cards is because unlike you and
me, there are a lot of people who do not pay off their balance every
month and the interest rates are amazingly high, not to mention
penalties if you forget.

[wolfbat359]

On Thursday, September 1, 2016 at 1:26:54 PM UTC-6, bfla...@gmail.com wrote:
> As you know there is a great deal of discussion concerning
> Hillary's cred and a great deal of discussion about Donald's
> wall and who will pay for it.
>
> "Who pays for the wall? We didn't discuss," Trump had said when
> asked by a reporter during a news conference following their
> meeting in Mexico City. "We did discuss the wall. We didn't
> discuss payment of the wall. That'll be for a later date."
>
> But Peña Nieto later claimed the two had discussed the wall
> and who would pay for it -- and he had "made it clear" to Trump
> it wouldn't be Mexico.
>
> "At the start of the conversation with Donald Trump, I made it
> clear that Mexico will not pay for the wall," Peña Nieto tweeted,
> after their meeting Wednesday.
>
> Sounds to me like two business men arguing who would pay for lunch.
> Goodness gracious, can we believe anything these political days?

I just use the Debit card because I can draw out cash using it at a Store such as a grocery store!

[billbowden]

"islander" <no...@priracy.com> wrote in message

news:nqkvbu$7vs$2...@dont-email.me...

I just think it's inconsiderate to tie up the line with personal verbiage.
There was someone ahead of me who picked up his stuff and went shopping for
something he forgot and later returned behind me. So, I offered him the
place ahead of me in line and he declined..But I only had a couple of items,
so it only made a minute or so difference. I've never had any old ladies
offer me anything.
.

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 16:03:37 -0700, "billbowden"

>"rumpelstiltskin" <x...@y.com> wrote in message

<snip>

>> Why does anyone use Debit Cards?
>
>Don't you have to make payments every month on a credit card? I only use a
>debit card so I don't have to make payments which I might forget and then
>get hit with some charge for being late. My bank keeps sending me offers for
>a credit card, but I never respond. They must have some reason for insisting
>I get a credit card?

I always pay my credit card bills every month. You
did note a way that a debit card is better than a credit
card though. It saves you the price of a stamp and two
minutes of writing a check. That's not by any means
enough to compensate for the increased security of
credit cards IMV, but it is, I admit, one way, albeit a
tiny one, that debit cards have an advantage over
credit cards.

I get offers for credit cards too, to both my real names
and also to my fake name in the phone book that I don't
use for anything else, and also to a "Kathy Jeff Wilson"
strangely enough. I get other marketing mail for Kathy too.
I have no idea where "Kathy Jeff Wilson" came from, but
I've been getting junk mail addressed to her at my address
for about a year now.

Credit Card companies get a cut from every sale, so
they do make money even if one always pays one's bills.
Usually the businesses absorb the cut, but I was going
to buy gas with a credit card a month ago, then stopped
when to my surprise the credit robot asked me to agree
to a 35¢ charge for using a credit card. At that point I
declined, since I was offended, and paid cash as usual
instead. Next time I might agree to the charge though,
because my new Costco Credit Card gives 4% cashback
at "eligible" gas stations. Since I bought $30 worth of
gas that time, I would have gotten a $1.20 credit for it
at Costco next May, to more than compensate for the
35¢ charge, though Sky-Monster only knows what an
"eligible" gas station is. I'll have to check my statement,
when it comes in after I've used my credit card to buy
gas, I suppose, to see if the gas station I usually use
(the ARCO at Divisadero and Fell) is "eligible" so that I
actually get a cashback credit for next May. The
difference will almost cover my dollar tip for one
take-out lunch from China Fun, from which I get
take-out about four or six times a month.

There's some guy on TV's "Democracy Now" who's
written a biography of Trump (without Trump's help
since he despises Trump). The guy is really
excoriating Trump, valiantly since Trump actually
sued him for slander once, and the guy said he'd
been a journalist for 50(?) years and had never had
so much trouble with somebody going after him.
He just now said that Trump doesn't regard people as
people: he just regards them as "things to be used".
If you can make a few bucks by jeopardizing the life
of a kid, then of course you do it right away, if
you're Donald Trump. He wouldn't understand why
everybody wouldn't do it.

David Cay Johnston (Pulitzer Prize winning
journalist) is the speaker above, as Amy Goodman
just announced at the end of the piece. Doubtless
she identified him at the beginning too, but I hadn't
turned on the boob-tube yet.

Here's the book at Amazon:
http://tinyurl.com/jlhc6n9

Oddly, the 163 customer reviews were not
right below the book description as is usually
the case at Amazon, but I did get there.
Here they are:
http://tinyurl.com/hpztw3f

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 16:30:27 -0700, islander <no...@priracy.com> wrote:
>On 9/5/2016 1:29 PM, El Castor wrote:

<snip>

>> I am no libertarian. The idea that I should be forced to use plastic
>> everywhere, so Big Brother can constantly peer over my shoulder, I
>> find highly repulsive.
>>
>Then you should find it highly repulsive that this is exactly the
>situation that exists today every time you use plastic. While there are
>laws that protect you from Big Brother, there are no laws that protect
>you from being profiled by the bank that offered you the plastic.

I notice that at Costco, Chinese people often pay for their
groceries with bills, often $100 bills. These are not drug
lords, they're honest people diligently running their
successful businesses. It must just be something in the
San Francisco Chinese culture.

(I can't believe it - I just answered three questions in a
row correctly about baseball stadiums, on "Jeopardy".
That's definitely a "first" for me!)

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 16:39:27 -0700, islander <no...@priracy.com> wrote:

>On 9/5/2016 4:03 PM, billbowden wrote:
>> Don't you have to make payments every month on a credit card? I only use a
>> debit card so I don't have to make payments which I might forget and then
>> get hit with some charge for being late. My bank keeps sending me offers for
>> a credit card, but I never respond. They must have some reason for insisting
>> I get a credit card?
>
>We have had our credit card company paid directly by the bank. They
>still send us an invoice so that we can verify that the charges are
>legitimate and have had no problem settling disputes.

I don't do that because I have a superstitious dread of having
money leave my bank account without my imprimatur. I won't let the
gas/electric company do that either, though they keep sending me
advertisements about how good it would be for me.

>
>The reason that banks still offer credit cards is because unlike you and
>me, there are a lot of people who do not pay off their balance every
>month and the interest rates are amazingly high, not to mention
>penalties if you forget.

I've never forgotten. Uriah Heep sent me a letter of
congratulations for so bony-fingered. The interest rates
on credit cards are crazy if you don't pay the bill off
every month, but I imagine the repercussions with
Debit cards are too if you charge more money on them
than you have in your account.

[rumpelstiltskin]

Not a problem for me, since my bank is on Castro Street
between my flat and the Subway and Streetcar stations.

[rumpelstiltskin]

Cuss 'em out. That'll make 'em move faster. Unless they have
Mace, that is.

I certainly agree with you about pennies.

[El Castor]

I NEVER get credit card offers. First of all you can opt out of credit
card offers -- which we did long ago. You should for the simple reason
that if your mail gets stolen, the crook will likely apply for the
card -- and use it. Secondly, we have frozen our credit. We have
excellent credit, but no one can get a credit report unless we lift
the freeze for a brief period. The credit cards that we already have
renew automatically, but if some crook gets ahold of my SS number and
attempts to open a department store charge account in my name, or
obtain another card, he can't do it because the store will attempt to
pull a credit report from one or more of the 3 credit agencies, and
the request will be refused. There is a one time charge to get the 3
freezes in place (each agency has to be contacted), but once done its
good until lifted -- permanently or temporarily. Everyone who has the
credit they need, and doesn't anticipate opening new accounts or
credit cards, should seriously consider doing this.

Info ...
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0497-credit-freeze-faqs
The 3 Credit Agencies ...
http://www.experian.com/consumer/security_freeze.html
https://www.transunion.com/credit-freeze/place-credit-freeze
https://help.equifax.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/159/~/placing-a-security-freeze

[El Castor]

Better a bank than Big Brother, and when I buy a box of Wheaties with
cash, it's between me and the supermarket. Your liberal love of an all
knowing, all seeing Big Brother is not something I fully understand,
but I find it extremely distasteful.

[wizardr...@msn.com]

On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 11:26:50 AM UTC-7, bfla...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 11:02:17 AM UTC-7, islander wrote:
> > There is nothing in the Comprehensive Integration Reform Act of 2015 ...
>
> The Republicans will never accept "amnesty" because they believe
> (and probably rightly so) that that cohort will vote Democratic.
>
> It is all politics of the lowest form. Unfortunately, the Republicans
> are caught between Scylla and Charybdis. They want the cheap labor
> for their business but don't want folks who vote Democratic because they
> might have to pay livable wages.


Why do we need to import labor when we have so many able-bodied Americans laying around collecting gov't free stuff? We're told that type of work is beneath them, so what kind of work are they up to?

[billbowden]

"islander" <no...@priracy.com> wrote in message

news:nqfm9u$vjm$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 9/3/2016 11:33 AM, El Castor wrote:
>> On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 07:23:54 -0700, islander <no...@priracy.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Good! Then you disagree with Trump on how to deal with the roughly 11
>>> million aliens who are in this country illegally.
>>>
>> Possibly, however he seems to have come around to my way of thinking.
>>
>> By the way -- you have said you support E-Verify. Those 11 million
>> already here could not pass an E-Verify check. How do you propose they
>> support themselves?
>>
> This is why we need immigration reform. The Immigration Reform Act of
> 2015, as passed by the Senate, but denied a vote in the House by the
> Republicans, would have been a good start. Bottom line, immigrants who
> are here illegally need a way to get work permits.
>

That's simple. Immigrants who are here illegally need to go back to their
home country and apply for US work permits and wait their turn with other
people who want to work in the US. We take the ones who have been waiting
the longest time.

[wizardr...@msn.com]

On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 11:48:46 AM UTC-7, Lawrence Akutagawa wrote:
> bflanier wrote in message
> news:41cf8c17-fb2c-41e8...@googlegroups.com...

>
> On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 11:02:17 AM UTC-7, islander wrote:
> > There is nothing in the Comprehensive Integration Reform Act of 2015 ...
>
> The Republicans will never accept "amnesty" because they believe
> (and probably rightly so) that that cohort will vote Democratic.
>
> It is all politics of the lowest form. Unfortunately, the Republicans
> are caught between Scylla and Charybdis. They want the cheap labor
> for their business but don't want folks who vote Democratic because they
> might have to pay livable wages.
>

> ****** This line separates my response from the foregoing ******
>
> Now there, bflanier, you've struck a chord over which I have been wondering
> (wandering?).
> Say that the very white The "Chicken Little" Donald indeed becomes US
> president and succeeds beyond his (and his cohorts') wildest dreams in fact
> deporting each and every single solitary illegal immigrant:
> Who maintains the gardens at the Trump properties?
> Who cleans the Trump properties?
> Who cooks the Trump meals?
> Who chauffeurs the Trump vehicles?
> Who hauls the Trump trash?
> Who repairs the roofs of the Trump's properties?
> Who paints the Trump's properties?
> Who serves the Trump's meals?
> Who mans the reception desk of the Trump properties?
> Who tends to plumbing problems at the Trump properties?
> Who works as the Trump servants?
> etc., etc., etc.
>
> Are folks like the Village Idiot, the Old Fool, their respective kinfolks,
> and the ilk willing to take and in fact will take on these now vacant jobs
> for the same wages/salaries? Or will we see images of the very white The
> "Chicken Little" Donald cleaning his very own properties/hauling his own
> trash to the landfill/cooking his own meals, etc.? is this just an example
> of the very white The "Chicken Little" Donald shooting himself in the foot
> big time? As you can well see, this is an issue over which to much
> wonder/wander.

Here we have an excellent display of a litany of strawmen. If it weren't for supercilious conjectures, Ye Olde Lawrence would be left speechless. He constantly lives down to bottomless and braindead expectations. Since his tiny peepee doesn't allow for true jacking off, he resorts to mental masturbation instead. In it he finds much sensual gratification in the empty posts he makes. Let's hope that upon the completion of his morphing into the gentler gender. that his mind will follow also and morph into calmer seas.

[El Castor]

They got invited here by Clinton, Bush, and Obama, so they came.
Exactly what you and I would have done if we were in their shoes.
Considering that borders were intentionally left wide open and laws
were intentionally not enforced they seem less culpable to me than a
jay walker -- something we have all done. The way things stand, more
than half the restaurants, landscapers, roofers, painters, house
cleaners, and fencing contractors in California, and a lot of other
states, would be out of business without them. They own their own
homes, and their kids are US citizens. Are we going to deport those
kids and confiscate their homes? I figure it would take 250,000 buses,
and where do they go? Half aren't Mexicans. Do we go door to door like
the Gestapo looking for Jews? Bad deal all around. We should build
Trumps wall, take border security seriously, enforce visas, and when
that is done and the borders are secure, grant law abiding long time
residents some sort of residence permit -- maybe like a green card,
and then do as Trump says, admit immigrants based on need and their
ability to assimilate -- which pretty much eliminates the Syrians.

[islander]

Actually, that would be penalties, but your point is valid.

The credit card companies exploit those who can least afford it. The
Consumer Credit Protection Bureau goes a long way toward protecting the
public, but could do a great deal more, IMV.

[islander]

This is good advice and I am responding so that Rumple will see your post.

It is sad that this is what we have to resort to in order to protect
ourselves, but that is the reality of the world today. There are a lot
of people out there who are smarter than you or I and they will steal
everything that we have without any pang of conscience. It is
unfortunate that the banks do not protect us from these people, but they
are primarily concerned with protecting the exposure of their
stockholders.

It is long past time that the government stepped in to protect the
common man who is justifiably primarily concerned with putting groceries
on the table and avoiding foreclosure on his home. The extent to which
corporations have to be regulated to protect the common man is
fundamental to the Democratic creed.

[islander]

On 9/5/2016 7:43 PM, rumpelstiltskin wrote:

> I notice that at Costco, Chinese people often pay for their
> groceries with bills, often $100 bills. These are not drug
> lords, they're honest people diligently running their
> successful businesses. It must just be something in the
> San Francisco Chinese culture.

Perhaps, but it is also possible that they are hiding those transactions
in the interests of hiding income which is taxed in our current system.

[islander]

If we are reduced to who has the advantage in grocery check-out lines, I
think that we can be tolerant of old ladies who have surrendered control
of their lives in so many other ways. Tolerance is something that we
can give without any more sacrifice than a few minutes of our time.

[islander]

Can you understand the reluctance of customers to accept new technology,
especially in the face of bank reluctance to accept the control of bank
excesses in both enforced interest rates and penalties associated with
both debit and credit cards?

[islander]

You are correct to be suspicious of motives of the financial community.
They are in the business of attracting investments to their individual
organizations. We are equally justified to demanding protection of the
individual who may not have the legal staff to defend their claim to
equal protection under the law.

[El Castor]

No! You are beyond hope. I waste my time with you. Chipped cards
ultimately failed because businesses did not see the need for the
expensive new technology. Customers just didn't care. The Target hack
brought this to a head, customers cared, and now we are in the process
of switching -- but even with today's technology it has been a painful
process, and may not produce the benefits that some expect.

[El Castor]

Just how are the evil banks going to protect us from criminals? They
can't even protect themselves. With technology comes difficult
problems. You are the quintessential socialist who sees everything in
life in the light of your Marxist ideology. Who is going to protect us
from you, and people like you?

>It is long past time that the government stepped in to protect the
>common man who is justifiably primarily concerned with putting groceries
>on the table and avoiding foreclosure on his home. The extent to which
>corporations have to be regulated to protect the common man is
>fundamental to the Democratic creed.

The words of a sickening socialist. You live on the wrong island. Move
to Cuba and see how you like it there.

[rumpelstiltskin]

Tax evasion is a possibility, but I don't regard that as a
crime unless it's done by flamingly crriminal businesses
such as the oil and insurance industries and people like
Donald Trump. I don't attempt to evade taxes myself,
only because I'm not smart enough to get away with it
and I don't have enough money to buy lawyers to work
out how to allow me to stash it offshore and not pay
taxes at all on it, while sneering at the filthy peasants
who can't get away with that, and buying senators who
will say that we need to tax Big Business less and tax
waitresses more.

[rumpelstiltskin]

It is good advice, and I probably should do it, but I probably
won't because it would require getting off my butt, which is
not one of my best talents. I've only had felonious activity
against my credit card once - the Florida thing I mentioned
in this group lately, and I got that taken care of with just
one phone call.

I did one time get a notice from SS saying that my payments
were being suspended because I was in jail in Oklahoma for
a serious crime. Somebody obviously had gotten hold of my
SS info. That took a visit to the SS office in San Francisco,
but that was all. I remember the woman helping me saying
on the phone "He's sitting right here in front of me." The
name the Oklahoma authorities had for the SS had a wrong
middle initial, which was interesting: I don't use a middle
initial for SS, so the crook must have been asked for one
and just made one up.

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 10:50:49 -0700, islander <no...@priracy.com> wrote:
>On 9/5/2016 7:43 PM, rumpelstiltskin wrote:

<snip>

>>> The reason that banks still offer credit cards is because unlike you and
>>> me, there are a lot of people who do not pay off their balance every
>>> month and the interest rates are amazingly high, not to mention
>>> penalties if you forget.
>>
>> I've never forgotten. Uriah Heep sent me a letter of
>> congratulations for so bony-fingered. The interest rates
>> on credit cards are crazy if you don't pay the bill off
>> every month, but I imagine the repercussions with
>> Debit cards are too if you charge more money on them
>> than you have in your account.
>>
>Actually, that would be penalties, but your point is valid.
>
>The credit card companies exploit those who can least afford it. The
>Consumer Credit Protection Bureau goes a long way toward protecting the
>public, but could do a great deal more, IMV.

I've never forgotten to pay off my two credit cards
because when the bill for one arrives, I put it on the
staircase until the other bill arrives, then I make out
and send checks for both bills plus my rent check for
the next month. It's a good thing I live in an upstairs
flat with an indoor staircase, so that I have a
staircase to put the unpaid bills on, or I might forget
to pay them.

I have a third credit card, for Target, but I don't
buy stuff at Target every month, so I just pay that
off as soon as the bill arrives. I get a 5% discount
for using the Target card at Target, but sometimes
the bill is less than $10 so that discount may not
even cover the price of the stamp to send in my
payment. I probably could do automatic bank
deduction payments to save stamps, but it's
against my religion to allow people to take money
out of my checking account without my imprimatur.

I also spend money on stamps for my internet,
gas/electric and telephone, but when there's
not still a credit on those, I send in enough money
to cover the next three months or so, so that I
won't have to bother with them again for a while.

These little nuisances can really get you down
unless you have a set procedure to take care of
them while expending a minimum of thought on
them.

[rumpelstiltskin]

Old ladies can be mean sometimes. Most of them are nice, though.