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Elizabeth Wonwell (d. 1482), First Wife of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland
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Brad Verity
Jul 16, 2013, 10:59:38 PM7/16/13
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There has been much confusion over the identity of Elizabeth, the first wife of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland (d. 1489). Most sources make her the daughter of either a William Hingeston of Wonwell, or a Robert Hingeston of Wonwell.
It was Wedgwood's HOP, in its biographies for William Hingeston (called Henston) of Wonwell and Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland, that first pointed out the fact that Elizabeth was not born a Hingeston, but rather was a Hingeston widow. William Hingeston died in 1458 (will proved on 6 May), and his widow Elizabeth shortly after married Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland. But Wedgwood did not venture a guess as to her parentage.
Wonwell is Wonwell Court in the parish of Kingston, Devon:
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-99637-wonwell-court-kingston-devon
Luckily a genealogist named John Benson solved the problem in an article that I can only catch snippets of in Google Books. It's in 'Devon & Cornwall Notes & Queries', either Volume 25 or 26 (1952-53), pp. 100-102. Using heraldry on a later Courtenay of Molland tomb, Mr. Benson determined: "The Hingestons acquired Wonwell by marriage with the heiress of Wonwell...satisfied that I have hit on the right solution, and not only identified this coat, but with it have settled that Elisabeth's maiden name was 'de Wonwell'!! Which makes it clear how helpful it is to have the Association to come and look into one's genealogical conundrums!":
http://books.google.ca/books?ei=T_3lUayLNI_oiALXuoG4Dg&id=1lBJAAAAMAAJ&dq=Philip+Courtenay+Wonwell&q=Wonwell#search_anchor
In 1791, Sir William Pole writes: "Wonewell was the dwellinge place of Thomas de Wonewell, anno 24 of Kinge Edw. I. It contynewed in the name of Wonewell unto Kinge Henry 6 time; John Wonewell, the laft of yt name. Theire succeeded in this land Robert Hingeston..."
http://books.google.ca/books?id=WF4OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA306&dq=John+Wonewell&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-v_lUaHdJqKoiQKriICIDg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=John%20Wonewell&f=false
Elizabeth Wonwell was no doubt the daughter of this John Wonwell of Wonwell Court who died in the reign of Henry VI. We know from the 1458 will of her first husband William Hingeston that her mother's name was Jane, and that she was still alive:
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igmpostem.cgi?op=show&app=jweber¬ify=GNxuisph2uKJGUfPOuo53bzgUVmFTmHm&key=I33555&return=%3Ca+href%3D%22%2Fcgi-bin%2Figm.cgi%3Fop%3DGET%26amp%3Bdb%3Djweber%26amp%3Bid%3DI33555%22%3EReturn+to+WorldConnect%3C%2Fa%3E
William Hingeston mentions daughters Elizabeth and Jane in his will, and by their first names, these would seem to be his daughters by Elizabeth Wonwell. But they also had a son and heir, Robert Hingeston of Wonwell Court (d. 28 Jan. 1488). Robert's IPM states that his son & heir John Hingeston was aged 12 and more, so born 1475/76. This matches well with Robert himself likely being born in the 1450s. Robert Hingeston married Margaret Cotterall (d. 26 Oct. 1508), and they had two sons and four daughters. Robert's IPM also mentions that "by deed dated 7th April 19 Edward iv (1479) he enfeoffed Philip Courtenay Kt and Edward Courtenay, Thos. Coterell, Wm. Fortescue Esqs. of the undermentioned lands in Kingston". The Sir Philip Courtenay whom he made one of his feoffees in 1479 was his stepfather, Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland (d. 1489):
http://www-civ.eng.cam.ac.uk/cjb/hingston/earlyhingstons.htm
Robert Hingeston's widow Margaret Caterall married 2ndly, as his second wife, William Ayshford of Ayshford Court (b. 1456, d. 17 July 1508). This William Ayshford was the nephew of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland's second wife, Elizabeth Ayshford Marwood. So the widow of Sir Philip Courtenay's stepson married his nephew-by-marriage. Furthermore, Agnes Hingeston, one of the four daughters of Robert Hingeston & Margaret Caterall, married her step-brother Robert Ayshford, the son of William Ayshford by his first wife Elizabeth Francis. When Philip Hingeston, the younger son of Robert Hingeston & Margaret Catterall, died unmarried in 1508, his sister Agnes & her husband Robert Ayshford inherited Wonwell Court, and it continued in the Ayshford family down to the 18th century:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ayshford/Ayshfords%20of%20Wonwell.html
As Elizabeth Wonwell is an ancestress of the Courtenays of Molland, the Strodes of Newnham, and hundreds of other families through her second marriage to Sir Philip Courtenay (d. 1489), as well as ancestress of the Ayshfords of Wonwell Court & several other families through her first marriage to William Hingeston (d. 1458), it's nice to have her paternal family identified. A combing through early 15th-century Devon Feets of Fines, Feudal Aids, Patent Rolls, etc, may uncover more information about her father John Wonwell of Wonwell Court (whose ancestry apparently can be traced back to the reign of Edward I), and identify the parentage of her mother Jane.
Cheers, ------Brad
It was Wedgwood's HOP, in its biographies for William Hingeston (called Henston) of Wonwell and Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland, that first pointed out the fact that Elizabeth was not born a Hingeston, but rather was a Hingeston widow. William Hingeston died in 1458 (will proved on 6 May), and his widow Elizabeth shortly after married Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland. But Wedgwood did not venture a guess as to her parentage.
Wonwell is Wonwell Court in the parish of Kingston, Devon:
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-99637-wonwell-court-kingston-devon
Luckily a genealogist named John Benson solved the problem in an article that I can only catch snippets of in Google Books. It's in 'Devon & Cornwall Notes & Queries', either Volume 25 or 26 (1952-53), pp. 100-102. Using heraldry on a later Courtenay of Molland tomb, Mr. Benson determined: "The Hingestons acquired Wonwell by marriage with the heiress of Wonwell...satisfied that I have hit on the right solution, and not only identified this coat, but with it have settled that Elisabeth's maiden name was 'de Wonwell'!! Which makes it clear how helpful it is to have the Association to come and look into one's genealogical conundrums!":
http://books.google.ca/books?ei=T_3lUayLNI_oiALXuoG4Dg&id=1lBJAAAAMAAJ&dq=Philip+Courtenay+Wonwell&q=Wonwell#search_anchor
In 1791, Sir William Pole writes: "Wonewell was the dwellinge place of Thomas de Wonewell, anno 24 of Kinge Edw. I. It contynewed in the name of Wonewell unto Kinge Henry 6 time; John Wonewell, the laft of yt name. Theire succeeded in this land Robert Hingeston..."
http://books.google.ca/books?id=WF4OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA306&dq=John+Wonewell&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-v_lUaHdJqKoiQKriICIDg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=John%20Wonewell&f=false
Elizabeth Wonwell was no doubt the daughter of this John Wonwell of Wonwell Court who died in the reign of Henry VI. We know from the 1458 will of her first husband William Hingeston that her mother's name was Jane, and that she was still alive:
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igmpostem.cgi?op=show&app=jweber¬ify=GNxuisph2uKJGUfPOuo53bzgUVmFTmHm&key=I33555&return=%3Ca+href%3D%22%2Fcgi-bin%2Figm.cgi%3Fop%3DGET%26amp%3Bdb%3Djweber%26amp%3Bid%3DI33555%22%3EReturn+to+WorldConnect%3C%2Fa%3E
William Hingeston mentions daughters Elizabeth and Jane in his will, and by their first names, these would seem to be his daughters by Elizabeth Wonwell. But they also had a son and heir, Robert Hingeston of Wonwell Court (d. 28 Jan. 1488). Robert's IPM states that his son & heir John Hingeston was aged 12 and more, so born 1475/76. This matches well with Robert himself likely being born in the 1450s. Robert Hingeston married Margaret Cotterall (d. 26 Oct. 1508), and they had two sons and four daughters. Robert's IPM also mentions that "by deed dated 7th April 19 Edward iv (1479) he enfeoffed Philip Courtenay Kt and Edward Courtenay, Thos. Coterell, Wm. Fortescue Esqs. of the undermentioned lands in Kingston". The Sir Philip Courtenay whom he made one of his feoffees in 1479 was his stepfather, Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland (d. 1489):
http://www-civ.eng.cam.ac.uk/cjb/hingston/earlyhingstons.htm
Robert Hingeston's widow Margaret Caterall married 2ndly, as his second wife, William Ayshford of Ayshford Court (b. 1456, d. 17 July 1508). This William Ayshford was the nephew of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland's second wife, Elizabeth Ayshford Marwood. So the widow of Sir Philip Courtenay's stepson married his nephew-by-marriage. Furthermore, Agnes Hingeston, one of the four daughters of Robert Hingeston & Margaret Caterall, married her step-brother Robert Ayshford, the son of William Ayshford by his first wife Elizabeth Francis. When Philip Hingeston, the younger son of Robert Hingeston & Margaret Catterall, died unmarried in 1508, his sister Agnes & her husband Robert Ayshford inherited Wonwell Court, and it continued in the Ayshford family down to the 18th century:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ayshford/Ayshfords%20of%20Wonwell.html
As Elizabeth Wonwell is an ancestress of the Courtenays of Molland, the Strodes of Newnham, and hundreds of other families through her second marriage to Sir Philip Courtenay (d. 1489), as well as ancestress of the Ayshfords of Wonwell Court & several other families through her first marriage to William Hingeston (d. 1458), it's nice to have her paternal family identified. A combing through early 15th-century Devon Feets of Fines, Feudal Aids, Patent Rolls, etc, may uncover more information about her father John Wonwell of Wonwell Court (whose ancestry apparently can be traced back to the reign of Edward I), and identify the parentage of her mother Jane.
Cheers, ------Brad
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Jul 17, 2013, 12:02:09 AM7/17/13
to
I'm guessing that the DCNQ article by John Benson is in vol. 52 (1952-3), based on a rather crude index to the periodical available here ( see the entries under Molland):
http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/DevonIndexes/DCNQindex.html
I wonder if Margaret, dau. of William Hingeston, who married John Fortescue of Fallapit is also one of the daughters of this William Hingeston, MP, and his wife Elizabeth Wonwell. If so, Elizabeth Wonwell is an ancestor of Prince William (and the forthcoming royal baby) by both of her marriages.
Brad Verity
Jul 17, 2013, 2:43:26 AM7/17/13
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On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 9:02:09 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I'm guessing that the DCNQ article by John Benson is in vol. 52 (1952-3), based on a rather crude index to the periodical available here ( see the entries under Molland):
>
> http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/DevonIndexes/DCNQindex.html
Thanks, John. IIRC, the UCLA Library has several volumes of Devon & Cornwall Notes & Queries. I'm going to be there Friday, so hopefully the relevant volume will be on the shelf.
> I'm guessing that the DCNQ article by John Benson is in vol. 52 (1952-3), based on a rather crude index to the periodical available here ( see the entries under Molland):
>
> http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/DevonIndexes/DCNQindex.html
> I wonder if Margaret, dau. of William Hingeston, who married John Fortescue of Fallapit is also one of the daughters of this William Hingeston, MP, and his wife Elizabeth Wonwell. If so, Elizabeth Wonwell is an ancestor of Prince William (and the forthcoming royal baby) by both of her marriages.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=WF4OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA306&dq=Margaret+Hingeston+Fortescue&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IznmUYeoCIisiALV3oCoDQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Margaret%20Hingeston%20Fortescue&f=false
Cheers, ---Brad
Brad Verity
Jul 17, 2013, 3:05:30 AM7/17/13
to
On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 11:43:26 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> I believe this Margaret Hingeston Fortescue was the Margaret, daughter of Robert Hingeston & Margaret Caterall.
Also, the Elizabeth Hingeston who was a co-heiress to her brother Philip Hingeston of Wonwell Court (d. 1508), so daughter of Robert Hingeston & Margaret Caterall (& granddaughter of Elizabeth Wonwell Hingeston Courtenay) - this Elizabeth Hingeston married John Coffin of Portledge:
> I believe this Margaret Hingeston Fortescue was the Margaret, daughter of Robert Hingeston & Margaret Caterall.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=WF4OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA387&dq=John+Coffin+Hingeston&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8kHmUazpIeXqiwLVy4CoCg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=John%20Coffin%20Hingeston&f=false
Cheers, -----Brad
Douglas Richardson
Jul 17, 2013, 3:17:42 AM7/17/13
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Brad ~
Wedgwood, House of Parliament 1 (1936): 230–231 is certainly correct in stating that Philip Courtenay's first wife, Elizabeth, was the widow of William "Hingeston." Elizabeth's first husband's surname, though, is usually spelled Hyndeston, Hyndestone, Henston, and Hengston in contemporary records. See, for example, Ives, Common Lawyers of Pre-Reformation England: Thomas Kebell (1983): 145.
Conclusive evidence for Elizabeth Courtenay's first marriage to William Hyndeston can be found in a lawsuit dated 1460, whereby Philip Courtenay and Elizabeth his wife, widow and executrix of William Hyndeston, sued Thomas Stone, Gent., of Yealmpton, Devon in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/796, rot. 327f (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no796/aCP40no796fronts/IMG_0327.htm)].
As for Mr. Benson, he is one of the worst local historians whose work I have ever encountered. I recommend you take anything he says with a huge grain of salt. Since Mr. Benson's reputation is so tainted, I would never say anything was "no doubt" correct based on any of his statements. Elizabeth Courtenay may have been a Wonwell as he says. But you need to prove it for yourself.
For now, all you know is that Elizabeth Courtenay's mother's name was Jane.
There is a brief biography of William "Hingston," of Wonwell, Devon published in Report and Transactions of the Devonshire Association for the Advancement of Science, Literature & Art 3rd Ser. 6 (1914): 491. The biography indicates that his surname was spelled "Hyndestone" in his Parliamentary record. The biography clearly states as does Wedgwood that William's widow "married Sir Philip Courtenay III., M.P. 1472." As such, I'm not clear where all the confusion you claim exists regarding Elizabeth Courtenay's first marriage. It seems rather clear to me.
The biography of William "Hingston" may be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Z8MVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA491
In Feb. 1453, again as "William Hyndestone," I find he was ordered to take upon himself the estate and degree of serjeant at law on 2 July next [Reference: Thorne, Prerogativa Regis (Selden Soc. 71) (1954): xxvii].
As for Sir Philip Courtenay's second wife, I've identified her as Elizabeth Ashford, widow and executrix of William Marwood, Esq., of Westacot (in Marwood), Devon, and daughter of William Ashford, of Ashford (in Burlescombe), Devon. By her 1st Marwood marriage, Elizabeth Ashford is ancestress of the New World immigrant, [Mr.] Edward Rossiter, of Dorchester, Massachusetts, who arrived on the ship, the Mary and John, in 1630.
Evidence of Elizabeth Ashford's first marriage to William Marwood, Esq., is found in a contemporary Chancery lawsuit dated in the period, 1475–80, or 1483–85, whereby John Broughton and Alice, his wife, daughter and heiress of Elizabeth Squire, and Lewis Pollard, son and heir of Jane Pollard, sister to the said Alice, sued Sir Philip Courteney, Knt., and Elizabeth, his wife, executrix and previously the [2nd] wife of William Marwood (whose 1st wife was the said Elizabeth Squire) regarding the detention of deeds relating to messuages and land in Exeter, Barnstaple, etc.., Devon [Reference: National Archives, C 1/58/142 (available at www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ search.asp)].
An abstract of this lawsuit is found at the following weblink:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C7448822
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Wedgwood, House of Parliament 1 (1936): 230–231 is certainly correct in stating that Philip Courtenay's first wife, Elizabeth, was the widow of William "Hingeston." Elizabeth's first husband's surname, though, is usually spelled Hyndeston, Hyndestone, Henston, and Hengston in contemporary records. See, for example, Ives, Common Lawyers of Pre-Reformation England: Thomas Kebell (1983): 145.
Conclusive evidence for Elizabeth Courtenay's first marriage to William Hyndeston can be found in a lawsuit dated 1460, whereby Philip Courtenay and Elizabeth his wife, widow and executrix of William Hyndeston, sued Thomas Stone, Gent., of Yealmpton, Devon in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/796, rot. 327f (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no796/aCP40no796fronts/IMG_0327.htm)].
As for Mr. Benson, he is one of the worst local historians whose work I have ever encountered. I recommend you take anything he says with a huge grain of salt. Since Mr. Benson's reputation is so tainted, I would never say anything was "no doubt" correct based on any of his statements. Elizabeth Courtenay may have been a Wonwell as he says. But you need to prove it for yourself.
For now, all you know is that Elizabeth Courtenay's mother's name was Jane.
There is a brief biography of William "Hingston," of Wonwell, Devon published in Report and Transactions of the Devonshire Association for the Advancement of Science, Literature & Art 3rd Ser. 6 (1914): 491. The biography indicates that his surname was spelled "Hyndestone" in his Parliamentary record. The biography clearly states as does Wedgwood that William's widow "married Sir Philip Courtenay III., M.P. 1472." As such, I'm not clear where all the confusion you claim exists regarding Elizabeth Courtenay's first marriage. It seems rather clear to me.
The biography of William "Hingston" may be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Z8MVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA491
In Feb. 1453, again as "William Hyndestone," I find he was ordered to take upon himself the estate and degree of serjeant at law on 2 July next [Reference: Thorne, Prerogativa Regis (Selden Soc. 71) (1954): xxvii].
As for Sir Philip Courtenay's second wife, I've identified her as Elizabeth Ashford, widow and executrix of William Marwood, Esq., of Westacot (in Marwood), Devon, and daughter of William Ashford, of Ashford (in Burlescombe), Devon. By her 1st Marwood marriage, Elizabeth Ashford is ancestress of the New World immigrant, [Mr.] Edward Rossiter, of Dorchester, Massachusetts, who arrived on the ship, the Mary and John, in 1630.
Evidence of Elizabeth Ashford's first marriage to William Marwood, Esq., is found in a contemporary Chancery lawsuit dated in the period, 1475–80, or 1483–85, whereby John Broughton and Alice, his wife, daughter and heiress of Elizabeth Squire, and Lewis Pollard, son and heir of Jane Pollard, sister to the said Alice, sued Sir Philip Courteney, Knt., and Elizabeth, his wife, executrix and previously the [2nd] wife of William Marwood (whose 1st wife was the said Elizabeth Squire) regarding the detention of deeds relating to messuages and land in Exeter, Barnstaple, etc.., Devon [Reference: National Archives, C 1/58/142 (available at www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ search.asp)].
An abstract of this lawsuit is found at the following weblink:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C7448822
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Brad Verity
Jul 17, 2013, 5:15:14 AM7/17/13
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On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 12:17:42 AM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> There is a brief biography of William "Hingston," of Wonwell, Devon published in Report and Transactions of the Devonshire Association for the Advancement of Science, Literature & Art 3rd Ser. 6 (1914): 491. The biography indicates that his surname was spelled "Hyndestone" in his Parliamentary record. The biography clearly states as does Wedgwood that William's widow "married Sir Philip Courtenay III., M.P. 1472." As such, I'm not clear where all the confusion you claim exists regarding Elizabeth Courtenay's first marriage. It seems rather clear to me.
Burke's Commoners said she was daughter of Robert Hingeston, and this has been followed by the FHL database:
> There is a brief biography of William "Hingston," of Wonwell, Devon published in Report and Transactions of the Devonshire Association for the Advancement of Science, Literature & Art 3rd Ser. 6 (1914): 491. The biography indicates that his surname was spelled "Hyndestone" in his Parliamentary record. The biography clearly states as does Wedgwood that William's widow "married Sir Philip Courtenay III., M.P. 1472." As such, I'm not clear where all the confusion you claim exists regarding Elizabeth Courtenay's first marriage. It seems rather clear to me.
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I5626&tree=EuropeRoyalNobleHous
Thomas Westcote in 1630 said "Sir Philip Courtenay, knight, (second son of Sir Philip of Powderham; third son, as some, and his wife the Lady Elizabeth Hungerford; third son of Hugh, tenth Earl of Devon;) married Elizabeth, daughter and heir of Hengerston of Hingston, and had issue.”
http://archive.org/stream/viewofdevonshire00west#page/574/mode/2up
So there definitely is confusion out there.
I checked Vivian's Courtenay pedigree (1895), p. 246. He states "Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland, 2 son, Chanc. inq. p.m. 4 Hen. VII. No. 87" married "Elizabeth, da. of ... and widow of William Hyndeston of Wonwall. Chanc. Inq. p.m. 22 Edw. IV. No. 33. Robt. Hyndeston her son and heir aged 30 years at the death of his mother."
This is great - it confirms that Robert Hingeston (d. 1488) was Elizabeth's son, and that he was born about 1452/53. It also informs us that Elizabeth Wonwell Hingeston Courtenay has an IPM, which would probably help confirm her parentage. Unfortunately the Edward IV IPMs have not yet been published.
But the Henry VII IPMs have, and in Vol. 1 of the CIPM Henry VII series (No. 443, pp. 187-188) is the IPM for "Robert Hengston", which confirms the abstract provided by the 'Early Hingstons of Devon' page that I linked to in my previous post.
A "Johannes Wonewille"/"Johannes Womwell" does appear in Feudal Aids Vol. 1, under the hundred of Ermyngton in Devon, but I haven't ever used this source before, so I'm not sure how to determine the dates:
http://www.archive.org/stream/inquisitionsasse01grea#page/452/mode/2up [p. 452]
http://www.archive.org/stream/inquisitionsasse01grea#page/454/mode/2up [p. 454]
A "Willelmus Hyndeston" also appears on p. 454, so in the same hundred of Ermyngton.
Cheers, -----Brad
Matt Tompkins
Jul 17, 2013, 9:09:18 AM7/17/13
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On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:15:14 AM UTC+1, Brad Verity wrote:
A "Johannes Wonewille"/"Johannes Womwell" does appear in Feudal Aids Vol. 1, under the hundred of Ermyngton in Devon, but I haven't ever used this source before, so I'm not sure how to determine the dates: http://www.archive.org/stream/inquisitionsasse01grea#page/452/mode/2up [p. 452] http://www.archive.org/stream/inquisitionsasse01grea#page/454/mode/2up [p. 454] A "Willelmus Hyndeston" also appears on p. 454, so in the same hundred of Ermyngton. Cheers, -----Brad
The heading on p. 452 says this inquest was held at Exeter castle on Tuesday next after the feast of St Bartholomew the apostle, 6 Henry VI, so on 31 August 1428.
A "Johannes Wonewille"/"Johannes Womwell" does appear in Feudal Aids Vol. 1, under the hundred of Ermyngton in Devon, but I haven't ever used this source before, so I'm not sure how to determine the dates: http://www.archive.org/stream/inquisitionsasse01grea#page/452/mode/2up [p. 452] http://www.archive.org/stream/inquisitionsasse01grea#page/454/mode/2up [p. 454] A "Willelmus Hyndeston" also appears on p. 454, so in the same hundred of Ermyngton. Cheers, -----Brad
Matt Tompkins
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Jul 17, 2013, 12:20:39 PM7/17/13
to
If you get a copy of the Benson article in DCNQ at UCL (and according to their catalog they do have that volume), perhaps you could send me a copy via email when you get home. (If you'll be at UCLA, you're a long way from home!!)
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Jul 17, 2013, 12:25:12 PM7/17/13
to
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 12:17:42 AM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Brad ~
>
>
>
> Wedgwood, House of Parliament 1 (1936): 230–231 is certainly correct in stating that Philip Courtenay's first wife, Elizabeth, was the widow of William "Hingeston." Elizabeth's first husband's surname, though, is usually spelled Hyndeston, Hyndestone, Henston, and Hengston in contemporary records. See, for example, Ives, Common Lawyers of Pre-Reformation England: Thomas Kebell (1983): 145.
>
>
>
> Conclusive evidence for Elizabeth Courtenay's first marriage to William Hyndeston can be found in a lawsuit dated 1460, whereby Philip Courtenay and Elizabeth his wife, widow and executrix of William Hyndeston, sued Thomas Stone, Gent., of Yealmpton, Devon in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/796, rot. 327f (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no796/aCP40no796fronts/IMG_0327.htm)].
>
>
>
> As for Mr. Benson, he is one of the worst local historians whose work I have ever encountered. I recommend you take anything he says with a huge grain of salt. Since Mr. Benson's reputation is so tainted, I would never say anything was "no doubt" correct based on any of his statements. Elizabeth Courtenay may have been a Wonwell as he says. But you need to prove it for yourself.
>
>
>
> For now, all you know is that Elizabeth Courtenay's mother's name was Jane.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Wedgwood, House of Parliament 1 (1936): 230–231 is certainly correct in stating that Philip Courtenay's first wife, Elizabeth, was the widow of William "Hingeston." Elizabeth's first husband's surname, though, is usually spelled Hyndeston, Hyndestone, Henston, and Hengston in contemporary records. See, for example, Ives, Common Lawyers of Pre-Reformation England: Thomas Kebell (1983): 145.
>
>
>
> Conclusive evidence for Elizabeth Courtenay's first marriage to William Hyndeston can be found in a lawsuit dated 1460, whereby Philip Courtenay and Elizabeth his wife, widow and executrix of William Hyndeston, sued Thomas Stone, Gent., of Yealmpton, Devon in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/796, rot. 327f (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no796/aCP40no796fronts/IMG_0327.htm)].
>
>
>
> As for Mr. Benson, he is one of the worst local historians whose work I have ever encountered. I recommend you take anything he says with a huge grain of salt. Since Mr. Benson's reputation is so tainted, I would never say anything was "no doubt" correct based on any of his statements. Elizabeth Courtenay may have been a Wonwell as he says. But you need to prove it for yourself.
>
>
>
> For now, all you know is that Elizabeth Courtenay's mother's name was Jane.
>
>
>
>
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Please share with us your specific reasons, and specific evidence, for your conclusion that Mr. Benson is "one of the worst local historians whose work I have ever encountered" and that "his reputation is so tainted". Can you give references that show that others support this judgment?
Brad Verity
Jul 17, 2013, 1:45:23 PM7/17/13
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On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 6:09:18 AM UTC-7, Matt Tompkins wrote:
> The heading on p. 452 says this inquest was held at Exeter castle on Tuesday next after the feast of St Bartholomew the apostle, 6 Henry VI, so on 31 August 1428.
Thank you, Matt. I think 1428 was a couple years before Elizabeth Wonwell was born. Her eldest son Robert Hingeston was born 1452/3, and her son John Courtenay of Molland was born in 1467 (aged 22 & more at his father's death in 1489). There were two additional sons, Philip and William Courtenay, born after John. So a birthdate in the 1430-35 range seems right for Elizabeth. That would make her a generation younger than her first husband William Hingeston, whom HOP estimates to have been born about 1405, but would put her at about the same age as her second husband Sir Philip Courtenay, whose eldest brother William was born in 1428.
> The heading on p. 452 says this inquest was held at Exeter castle on Tuesday next after the feast of St Bartholomew the apostle, 6 Henry VI, so on 31 August 1428.
I will try & find more references to John Wonwell in sources from the 1420s/1430s.
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 9:20:39 AM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> If you get a copy of the Benson article in DCNQ at UCL (and according to their catalog they do have that volume), perhaps you could send me a copy via email when you get home. (If you'll be at UCLA, you're a long way from home!!)
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 12:17:42 AM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> As for Sir Philip Courtenay's second wife, I've identified her as Elizabeth Ashford, widow and executrix of William Marwood, Esq., of Westacot (in Marwood), Devon, and daughter of William Ashford, of Ashford (in Burlescombe), Devon. By her 1st Marwood marriage, Elizabeth Ashford is ancestress of the New World immigrant, [Mr.] Edward Rossiter, of Dorchester, Massachusetts, who arrived on the ship, the Mary and John, in 1630.
Douglas, this in all probability then gives Edward Rossiter of Dorchester an Edward I descent:
Edward I had
1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford & Essex (1282-1316), who had
2) Margaret de Bohun, Countess of Devon (1311-1391), who had
3) Sir Philip Courtenay of Powderham Castle (1347-1406), who had
4) Margaret Courtenay (c.1387-by1413) m. by 1402 Robert Cary of Cockington (d. c.1431), and had
5) Joan Cary (d. aft.1438) m. William Ayshford of Ayshford Court, and had
6) Elizabeth Ayshford m. 1) William Marwood of Westcott (d. 1482), and then presumably down to
Edward Rossiter of Dorchester, MA
See 'Ayshfords of Ayshford', which shows how chronologically the old pedigrees must be wrong in making Margaret Cotterall the mother of William Ayshford's two sons, as his first wife Joanna Cary was still living in 1438. We now know the old pedigrees were completely wrong, as Margaret Cotterall Hingeston was not married to this William Ayshford at all, but rather to his grandson of the same name, who died in 1508. So all of this earlier William Ayshford's children, including your Elizabeth Ayshford Marwood, were from his only known wife Joan Cary. A birthdate in the 1430s for Elizabeth Ayshford Marwood does match up to the birth in the early 1430s of her second husband Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland (d. 1489).
It also makes Sir Philip Courtenay and Elizabeth Ayshford Marwood second cousins, which helps to explain their marriage:
Sir Philip Courtenay of Powderham Castle (1347-1406) had a son A1 & a dau B1
A1) Sir John Courtenay of Place Barton (c.1381-bef.1415), had
A2) Sir Philip Courtenay of Powderham Castle (1404-1463), had
A3) Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland (1430/5-1489)
B1) Margaret Courtenay (c.1387-by1413) m. by 1402 Robert Cary of Cockington (d. c.1431), and had
B2) Joan Cary (d. aft.1438) m. William Ayshford of Ayshford Court, and had
B3) Elizabeth Ayshford
Cheers, ----Brad
Brad Verity
Jul 17, 2013, 1:46:37 PM7/17/13
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On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:45:23 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> See 'Ayshfords of Ayshford', which shows how chronologically the old pedigrees must be wrong in making Margaret Cotterall the mother of William Ayshford's two sons, as his first wife Joanna Cary was still living in 1438.
Whoops! Forgot the link:
> See 'Ayshfords of Ayshford', which shows how chronologically the old pedigrees must be wrong in making Margaret Cotterall the mother of William Ayshford's two sons, as his first wife Joanna Cary was still living in 1438.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ayshford/Three%20County%20Marriages.html
Cheers, ----Brad
al...@mindspring.com
Jul 17, 2013, 5:38:53 PM7/17/13
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snip
Douglas, this in all probability then gives Edward Rossiter of Dorchester an Edward I descent:
>
>
>
> Edward I had
>
> 1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford & Essex (1282-1316), who had
>
> 2) Margaret de Bohun, Countess of Devon (1311-1391), who had
>
> 3) Sir Philip Courtenay of Powderham Castle (1347-1406), who had
>
> 4) Margaret Courtenay (c.1387-by1413) m. by 1402 Robert Cary of Cockington (d. c.1431), and had
>
> 5) Joan Cary (d. aft.1438) m. William Ayshford of Ayshford Court, and had
>
> 6) Elizabeth Ayshford m. 1) William Marwood of Westcott (d. 1482), and then presumably down to
>
> Edward Rossiter of Dorchester, MA
>
snip
>
>
>
> Edward I had
>
> 1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford & Essex (1282-1316), who had
>
> 2) Margaret de Bohun, Countess of Devon (1311-1391), who had
>
> 3) Sir Philip Courtenay of Powderham Castle (1347-1406), who had
>
> 4) Margaret Courtenay (c.1387-by1413) m. by 1402 Robert Cary of Cockington (d. c.1431), and had
>
> 5) Joan Cary (d. aft.1438) m. William Ayshford of Ayshford Court, and had
>
> 6) Elizabeth Ayshford m. 1) William Marwood of Westcott (d. 1482), and then presumably down to
>
> Edward Rossiter of Dorchester, MA
>
Brad
Have you seen the Marwood to Rossiter line of descent in print anywhere?
Thanks
Doug Smith
al...@mindspring.com
Jul 17, 2013, 5:39:53 PM7/17/13
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snip
Douglas, this in all probability then gives Edward Rossiter of Dorchester an Edward I descent:
>
>
>
> Edward I had
>
> 1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford & Essex (1282-1316), who had
>
> 2) Margaret de Bohun, Countess of Devon (1311-1391), who had
>
> 3) Sir Philip Courtenay of Powderham Castle (1347-1406), who had
>
> 4) Margaret Courtenay (c.1387-by1413) m. by 1402 Robert Cary of Cockington (d. c.1431), and had
>
> 5) Joan Cary (d. aft.1438) m. William Ayshford of Ayshford Court, and had
>
> 6) Elizabeth Ayshford m. 1) William Marwood of Westcott (d. 1482), and then presumably down to
>
> Edward Rossiter of Dorchester, MA
>
>
>
>
> Edward I had
>
> 1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford & Essex (1282-1316), who had
>
> 2) Margaret de Bohun, Countess of Devon (1311-1391), who had
>
> 3) Sir Philip Courtenay of Powderham Castle (1347-1406), who had
>
> 4) Margaret Courtenay (c.1387-by1413) m. by 1402 Robert Cary of Cockington (d. c.1431), and had
>
> 5) Joan Cary (d. aft.1438) m. William Ayshford of Ayshford Court, and had
>
> 6) Elizabeth Ayshford m. 1) William Marwood of Westcott (d. 1482), and then presumably down to
>
> Edward Rossiter of Dorchester, MA
>
Brad Verity
Jul 17, 2013, 5:58:07 PM7/17/13
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On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 2:38:53 PM UTC-7, al...@mindspring.com wrote:
> Brad
> Have you seen the Marwood to Rossiter line of descent in print anywhere?
Sorry, Doug, but I haven't. I hadn't even heard of Edward Rossiter of Dorchester until Douglas's post yesterday.
> Brad
> Have you seen the Marwood to Rossiter line of descent in print anywhere?
Cheers, -----Brad
Douglas Richardson
Jul 17, 2013, 8:02:47 PM7/17/13
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Dear Doug ~
I worked on the Rossiter-Marwood connection many years ago.
As I recall, the immigrant Mr. Edward Rossiter, of Dorchester, Massachusetts is a grandson or great-grandson of Baldwin Marwood, who was a servant of the Countess of Devon in 1524. The evidence to prove the connection is found in an unpublished Harleian pedigree held by the British Library.
Fortunately, there is a pedigree chart of Baldwin Marwood's ancestry found at this weblink:
http://www.burrowes.org/ruby/gedrelay.rbx?type=TA&depth=15&target=I544
This database identifies Baldwin Marwood as a son of William Marwood and his wife, Joan Courtenay. If so, then Baldwin Marwood would have a descent from King Edward I through the Courtenay family.
However, the reader is warned that "doubt exists as to Baldwin being a son by Joan." So buyer beware (or genealogist beware).
I worked on the Rossiter-Marwood connection many years ago.
As I recall, the immigrant Mr. Edward Rossiter, of Dorchester, Massachusetts is a grandson or great-grandson of Baldwin Marwood, who was a servant of the Countess of Devon in 1524. The evidence to prove the connection is found in an unpublished Harleian pedigree held by the British Library.
Fortunately, there is a pedigree chart of Baldwin Marwood's ancestry found at this weblink:
http://www.burrowes.org/ruby/gedrelay.rbx?type=TA&depth=15&target=I544
This database identifies Baldwin Marwood as a son of William Marwood and his wife, Joan Courtenay. If so, then Baldwin Marwood would have a descent from King Edward I through the Courtenay family.
However, the reader is warned that "doubt exists as to Baldwin being a son by Joan." So buyer beware (or genealogist beware).
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Jul 17, 2013, 8:50:51 PM7/17/13
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The visitation pedigrees start with this William and don't mention his father who is said to have married Elizabeth Ashford. What exactly is the evidence for this latter marriage?
Note that the site mentioned above for the Baldwin Marwood ancestry has really mangled the marriage of the elder William, saying that he married Elizabeth Hyndeston, the 1st wife of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland, rather than Elizabeth Ashford, the 2nd wife. Very confusing - and probably doubtful, at least based on what's been discussed here so far.
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Jul 17, 2013, 8:58:01 PM7/17/13
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http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1997-06/0865290520
Readers can reach their own conclusions....
al...@mindspring.com
Jul 18, 2013, 8:01:03 AM7/18/13
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Would you have a catalog number for the unpublished pedigree held by the British Library?
Doug Smith
al...@mindspring.com
Jul 18, 2013, 4:04:51 PM7/18/13
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The following will of Henry Marwood mentions brothers John and Bernard and his mother Joan.
The Western Antiquary; Or, Devon and Cornwall Notebook, Volume 9, pps 77-78 at http://books.google.com/books?id=b68xAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=william+marwood+visitation+of+devon&source=bl&ots=CB_04z_Ad-&sig=mLbjVBX4-4zS86ffQ21qr4w7LXk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0kXoUfKWG4T_4APKy4HYAQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=william%20marwood%20visitation%20of%20devon&f=false.
Doug Smith
The Western Antiquary; Or, Devon and Cornwall Notebook, Volume 9, pps 77-78 at http://books.google.com/books?id=b68xAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=william+marwood+visitation+of+devon&source=bl&ots=CB_04z_Ad-&sig=mLbjVBX4-4zS86ffQ21qr4w7LXk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0kXoUfKWG4T_4APKy4HYAQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=william%20marwood%20visitation%20of%20devon&f=false.
Doug Smith
Douglas Richardson
Jul 18, 2013, 4:29:21 PM7/18/13
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On Thursday, July 18, 2013 6:01:03 AM UTC-6, al...@mindspring.com wrote:
< Would you have a catalog number for the unpublished pedigree held by the British Library?
< Doug Smith
Doug ~
< Would you have a catalog number for the unpublished pedigree held by the British Library?
< Doug Smith
I have a copy of the pedigree in my files, but it's been buried for a long time in my basement. I'm reorganizing my basement now and I might well find it sometime later this summer. If I locate the pedigree, I'll be sure to let you know.
Douglas Richardson
Jul 18, 2013, 4:54:13 PM7/18/13
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Doug ~
Doing some checking, I see there is a lawsuit dated 1537 in the Court of Common Pleas involving a recognizance bond between Philip Rocetter [Rossiter], Gent., of Combe St. Nicholas, Somerset and Henry Marwode [Marwood] and Henry Chyverton (or Chynerton) [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1092, rot. 3942d].
The lawsuit may be viewed at the following weblink: http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1092/bCP40no1092dorses/IMG_3942.htm
The lawsuit is partly in English, which is helpful.
I believe that Philip Rossiter, Gent., of Combe St. Nicholas, Somerset is the grandfather of the immigrant, [Mr.] Edward Rossiter, of Dorchester, Massachusetts. I don't have the Rossiter pedigree in front me to say this as a definite statement.
This lawsuit at least documents that the Rossiter and Marwood families were well acquainted.
Doing some checking, I see there is a lawsuit dated 1537 in the Court of Common Pleas involving a recognizance bond between Philip Rocetter [Rossiter], Gent., of Combe St. Nicholas, Somerset and Henry Marwode [Marwood] and Henry Chyverton (or Chynerton) [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1092, rot. 3942d].
The lawsuit may be viewed at the following weblink: http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1092/bCP40no1092dorses/IMG_3942.htm
The lawsuit is partly in English, which is helpful.
I believe that Philip Rossiter, Gent., of Combe St. Nicholas, Somerset is the grandfather of the immigrant, [Mr.] Edward Rossiter, of Dorchester, Massachusetts. I don't have the Rossiter pedigree in front me to say this as a definite statement.
This lawsuit at least documents that the Rossiter and Marwood families were well acquainted.
Douglas Richardson
Jul 18, 2013, 5:03:15 PM7/18/13
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Doug ~
I find that in 1538 Baldwin Marwoode sued Joan Horn widow in a Devonshire action to recover goods unlawfully withheld from his possession [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1096, rot. 1965f].
This lawsuit (all in Latin) may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1096/aCP40no1096fronts/IMG_1965.htm]
I find that in 1538 Baldwin Marwoode sued Joan Horn widow in a Devonshire action to recover goods unlawfully withheld from his possession [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1096, rot. 1965f].
This lawsuit (all in Latin) may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1096/aCP40no1096fronts/IMG_1965.htm]
al...@mindspring.com
Jul 18, 2013, 5:40:44 PM7/18/13
to
Thank you for those references and yes Philip is Edward's grandfather. Philip's first wife was unknown to Meredith Colket NEHGR Jan 1984, pps 4-13. It is I suppose possible that she was a Marwood.
Doug Smith
Douglas Richardson
Jul 18, 2013, 5:53:44 PM7/18/13
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Doug ~
Here are four more lawsuits involving Baldwin Marwood. In the second lawsuit below, his wife, Joan, and his son and heir, Henry, are named. In the third lawsuit below, Baldwin is identified as Baldwin Marwood, esquire.
1. In 1523 Baldwin Merwood sued Lawrence Chapman, husbandman, of Carhampton, Somerset, and Alice his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a trespass at Lygh in the parish of Old Cleeve, Somerset [Reference: [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1038, rot. 332d].
The above lawsuit may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/H8/CP40no1038/bCP40no1038dorses/IMG_0332.htm
2. In 1531 Adam William and Richard Bydwell sued Baldwin Merewode, his wife Joan, and their son and heir, Henry Merwode, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a messuage and land in West Sellake and Uplowman, Devon [Reference: [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1068, rot. 176f].
The above lawsuit may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1068/aCP40no1068fronts/IMG_0176.htm
3. In 1533 Baldwin Marwod esquire sued John Gefford, senior, yeoman, of Norton, Somerset, and Richard Gefford, husbandman, of Wellington, Somerset, in a Devonshire action in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1076, rot. 5198f].
The above lawsuit may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1076/aCP40no1076fronts/IMG_5198.htm
This lawsuit indicates that Baldwin Marwood held the social rank of esquire.
4. In 1544 Baldwin Marwode sued Edward Heyne, husbandman, of Halberton, Devon in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1120, rot. 7579d].
The above lawsuit may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/H8/CP40no1120/bCP40no1120dorses/IMG_7579.htm
Here are four more lawsuits involving Baldwin Marwood. In the second lawsuit below, his wife, Joan, and his son and heir, Henry, are named. In the third lawsuit below, Baldwin is identified as Baldwin Marwood, esquire.
1. In 1523 Baldwin Merwood sued Lawrence Chapman, husbandman, of Carhampton, Somerset, and Alice his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a trespass at Lygh in the parish of Old Cleeve, Somerset [Reference: [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1038, rot. 332d].
The above lawsuit may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/H8/CP40no1038/bCP40no1038dorses/IMG_0332.htm
2. In 1531 Adam William and Richard Bydwell sued Baldwin Merewode, his wife Joan, and their son and heir, Henry Merwode, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a messuage and land in West Sellake and Uplowman, Devon [Reference: [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1068, rot. 176f].
The above lawsuit may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1068/aCP40no1068fronts/IMG_0176.htm
3. In 1533 Baldwin Marwod esquire sued John Gefford, senior, yeoman, of Norton, Somerset, and Richard Gefford, husbandman, of Wellington, Somerset, in a Devonshire action in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1076, rot. 5198f].
The above lawsuit may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1076/aCP40no1076fronts/IMG_5198.htm
This lawsuit indicates that Baldwin Marwood held the social rank of esquire.
4. In 1544 Baldwin Marwode sued Edward Heyne, husbandman, of Halberton, Devon in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1120, rot. 7579d].
The above lawsuit may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/H8/CP40no1120/bCP40no1120dorses/IMG_7579.htm
Brad Verity
Jul 18, 2013, 6:25:32 PM7/18/13
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On Thursday, July 18, 2013 1:04:51 PM UTC-7, al...@mindspring.com wrote:
> The following will of Henry Marwood mentions brothers John and Bernard and his mother Joan.
> The Western Antiquary; Or, Devon and Cornwall Notebook, Volume 9, pps 77-78 at http://books.google.com/books?id=b68xAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=william+marwood+visitation+of+devon&source=bl&ots=CB_04z_Ad-&sig=mLbjVBX4-4zS86ffQ21qr4w7LXk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0kXoUfKWG4T_4APKy4HYAQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=william%20marwood%20visitation%20of%20devon&f=false.
Doug,
> The following will of Henry Marwood mentions brothers John and Bernard and his mother Joan.
> The Western Antiquary; Or, Devon and Cornwall Notebook, Volume 9, pps 77-78 at http://books.google.com/books?id=b68xAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=william+marwood+visitation+of+devon&source=bl&ots=CB_04z_Ad-&sig=mLbjVBX4-4zS86ffQ21qr4w7LXk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0kXoUfKWG4T_4APKy4HYAQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=william%20marwood%20visitation%20of%20devon&f=false.
Here's a link to an article 'Runaway Match of Elizabeth Courtenay' by John A.C. Vincent in The Genealogist Vol. 6 (1882). It gives the following particulars for three generations of Marwoods of Westcott:
http://books.google.com/books?id=l3Y4AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA197&dq=William+Marwood+died+1482&hl=en&sa=X&ei=i2DoUfTLA4HoiwKC3IDoBQ&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=William%20Marwood%20died%201482&f=false
1) William Marwood (I) of Westcott died 1482. Inq.p.m. taken at Exeter 29 July 1482. This is the William Marwood who married 1) Elizabeth Squire, and 2) Elizabeth Ayshford. The lawsuit Douglas posted upthread proves William's first marriage to Elizabeth Squire, and proves that his second wife & widow, also named Elizabeth, married Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland after this William Marwood's death. It doesn't prove that Elizabeth was the daughter of William Ayshford of Ayshford Court - I don't know what evidence exists that confirms that.
2) William Marwood (II) of Westcott. He was already married to Joan Courtenay at his father's death in 1482, but as their eldest son wasn't born until seven years later, it may be a marriage arranged by their fathers while they were minors. I don't know what evidence exists to determine which of William Marwood I's wives was the mother of this William Marwood II. This William Marwood II was a feoffee of Katherine, countess of Devon (Edward IV's daughter). He died 25 January 1519-20. Per the Visitation pedigree of the Marwoods taken in the 1560s, William II only had two sons with his wife Joan Courtenay. I would imagine she died then at some point in the 1490s. William II married secondly Elizabeth Saxby, from a London family, and went on to have three more children.
3) John Marwood of Westcott. He was aged 30 at the IPM taken at his father's death, so born 1489/90. He married Elizabeth Holbeam. I don't yet have a death date for him.
Westcott is Westcott Barton, in the parish of Marwood, Devon:
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-98219-westcott-barton-marwood-devon
Given the above chronology & the Marwood pedigree from the 1560 Visitation, it is clear Baldwin Marwood was not a son of William Marwood II (d. 1520) & Joan Courtenay, so does not get an Edward I descent through the latter.
It also seems clear that the Henry Marwood of Halberton (d. 1547), whose will you linked to upthread, was not the Henry Marwood who was the son of William II & second wife Elizabeth Saxby. Henry states in his will that his mother's name is Joan, and that she was still alive. He's mis-identified as their son in the following source:
http://archive.org/stream/devonshirewillsc00wortiala#page/4/mode/2up
If, however, William Marwood I had issue by his second wife Elizabeth (who re-married Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland), and if this Elizabeth was indeed the daughter of William Ayshford of Ayshford Court & his wife Joan Cary, then their issue would be descendants of Edward I. And if these brothers Henry Marwood of Halberton (d. 1547) & Baldwin Marwood were descended from that marriage somehow, then there's an Edward I descent for the Rossiters.
I want to also point out that it is chronologically impossible for Dr. Thomas Marwood of Honiton (d. 1617), physician to Elizabeth I & James I, mentioned in the Henry Marwood article linked to upthread, to have been born in 1512 & to have been the grandson of John Marwood of Westcott (b. 1489/90). If the doctor though was instead age 80, say, rather than 105, at his death, it could work.
These Marwoods need a lot of sorting out, it seems.
Cheers, ---Brad
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Jul 18, 2013, 6:32:47 PM7/18/13
to
Something seems amiss here, if the Henry Marwood of this will is thought to be of the family of Marwood whose pedigree appears in the 1564 visitation of Devon - which pedigree is headed by William Marwood whose FIRST wife was Jane Courtenay. As the author of the item in the Western Quarterly notes, William Marwood did have sons named John and Henry, but they were by different wives - John by the 1st wife Joan Courtenay and Henry by the 2nd wife Elizabeth Saxby. The Henry Marwood in this will names as one of his heirs (and thus presumably living) his mother Jane. But if the visitation is correct with respect to the order of the marriages of William Marwood (and the distribution of his children), the Henry of this will cannot be the Henry who appears in the visitation pedigree. More research would clearly be desirable, but it seems likely that the Henry Marwood of this will is from a different branch of the family - together with his brother Barnard/Bernard (not Baldwin).
Douglas Richardson
Jul 18, 2013, 11:24:53 PM7/18/13
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Dear Doug ~
I've assembled various records relating to Baldwin Marwood, Esquire (died c.1545), his wife, Joan, and their children. I don't find any immediate indication of Baldwin's parentage, but I believe he was a son of William Marwood, of Westacot (in Marwood), Devon, by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth Ashford. I might note that Baldwin Marwood is mentioned in connection with a Nicholas Ayssheford in a Chancery lawsuit dated 1518-29.
According to a online website, Baldwin Marwood was a servant of Countess of Devon in 1524. He succeeded William Marwood as tenant of Exminster. He was granted annuity of L3/6/8 by Marquis in 1525 for good service. I believe these online statements are correct. I'm uncertain as to the identity of William Marwood who preceded him as tenant of Exminster.
Any additions would be much appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
I. Baldwin Marwood, Esq., born say 1480. He married Joan _____. They had three sons, Henry, John, and Bernard, and one daughter, _____ (wife of Philip Rossiter, Gent.). In the period, 1492-1547, Baldwin Marwoode sued Robert Harryce, Citizen and draper of London, in the Court of Requests regarding the apprenticeship of the plaintiff to the defendant. In the period, 1515-18, John Button and Isabel, his wife, daughter and heir of Henry Way, sued Baldwin Marwood, gentleman, alias esquire, in Chancery regarding the detention of deeds relating to a messuage and land in Tiverton, Devon. In the period, 1518-29, Richard Drewe of Newton St Cyres, Devon sued Nicholas Ayssheford, feoffee to uses, John Barnhous, and Baldwin Merwod in Chancery regarding the fraudulent conveyance of a messuage and land called West Sellake in Uplowman and Halberton, Devon, whereof the said Baldwin was tenant in tail with reversion to complainant. In 1523 Baldwin Merwood sued Lawrence Chapman, husbandman, of Carhampton, Somerset, and Alice his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a trespass at Lygh in the parish of Old Cleeve, Somerset. In 1531 Adam William and Richard Bydwell sued Baldwin Merewode, his wife Joan, and their son and heir, Henry Merwode, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a messuage and land in West Sellake and Uplowman, Devon. In 1533 "as Baldwin Marwod esquire," he sued John Gefford, senior, yeoman, of Norton, Somerset, and Richard Gefford, husbandman, of Wellington, Somerset, in a Devonshire action in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. In 1538 Baldwin Marwoode sued Joan Horn, widow in the Court of Common Pleas to recover goods unlawfully withheld from his possession. In 1544, as "Baldwin Marwode sued Edward Heyne, husbandman, of Halberton, Devon in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. His widow, Joan, was a legatee in the 1545 will of her son, Henry Marwood. In the period, 1547-1553, Thomas Rede sued Joan Marwood and John and Bernard her sons and others in the Court of the Star Chamber regarding cutting and carrying wheat at Uplowman, Devon. In the period, 1553-55, the dean and chapter of Bristol sued Joan Marwoode in Chancery regarding rent of the parsonage of Halberton (Holberton), Devon, of the demise of the late monastery of St Augustine's, Bristol.
References:
Western Antiquary 9 (1890): 77-78 (will of Henry Marwood). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1038, rot. 332d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/H8/CP40no1038/bCP40no1038dorses/IMG_0332.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1068, rot. 176f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1068/aCP40no1068fronts/IMG_0176.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1076, rot. 5198f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1076/aCP40no1076fronts/IMG_5198.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1096, rot. 1965f (available at
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1096/aCP40no1096fronts/IMG_1965.htm).
Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1120, rot. 7579d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/H8/CP40no1120/bCP40no1120dorses/IMG_7579.htm). National Archives, C 1/391/24; C 1/496/44; C 1/1330/69-74; REQ 2/5/211; REQ 2/5/260; STAC 3/2/2.
Children of Baldwin Marwood, Esq., by Joan _____:
i. Henry Marwood, born say 1510. He was admitted a member of Lincoln's Inn in 1532. In 1537 Henry Marwode [Marwood] and Henry Chyverton (or Chynerton) sued Philip Rocetter [Rossiter], Gent., of Combe St. Nicholas, Somerset in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a recognizance bond Baildon, Records of the Honorable Society of Lincoln's Inn 1 (1896): 47. Henry Marwood left a will dated 20 June 1545, proved 13 Sept. 1547. Western Antiquary 9 (1890): 77-78 (will of Henry Marwood). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1092, rot. 3942d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1092/bCP40no1092dorses/IMG_3942.htm).
ii. John Marwood. He was a legatee in the 1545 will of his brother, Henry Marwood. Western Antiquary 9 (1890): 77-78 (will of Henry Marwood).
iii. Bernard Marwood, of Halberton, Devon. He was a legatee in the 1545 will of his brother, Henry Marwood. He died before 14 Oct. 1581. He married _____. They had one son, John (living 1581), and one daughter, Fortune (living 1581). Western Antiquary 9 (1890): 77-78 (will of Henry Marwood).
iv. daughter, married Philip Rossiter, Gent., of Combe St. Nicholas, Somerset.
In 1537 Henry Marwode [Marwood] and Henry Chyverton (or Chynerton) sued Philip Rocetter [Rossiter], Gent., of Combe St. Nicholas, Somerset in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a recognizance bond [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1092, rot. 3942d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1092/bCP40no1092dorses/IMG_3942.htm).
I've assembled various records relating to Baldwin Marwood, Esquire (died c.1545), his wife, Joan, and their children. I don't find any immediate indication of Baldwin's parentage, but I believe he was a son of William Marwood, of Westacot (in Marwood), Devon, by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth Ashford. I might note that Baldwin Marwood is mentioned in connection with a Nicholas Ayssheford in a Chancery lawsuit dated 1518-29.
According to a online website, Baldwin Marwood was a servant of Countess of Devon in 1524. He succeeded William Marwood as tenant of Exminster. He was granted annuity of L3/6/8 by Marquis in 1525 for good service. I believe these online statements are correct. I'm uncertain as to the identity of William Marwood who preceded him as tenant of Exminster.
Any additions would be much appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
I. Baldwin Marwood, Esq., born say 1480. He married Joan _____. They had three sons, Henry, John, and Bernard, and one daughter, _____ (wife of Philip Rossiter, Gent.). In the period, 1492-1547, Baldwin Marwoode sued Robert Harryce, Citizen and draper of London, in the Court of Requests regarding the apprenticeship of the plaintiff to the defendant. In the period, 1515-18, John Button and Isabel, his wife, daughter and heir of Henry Way, sued Baldwin Marwood, gentleman, alias esquire, in Chancery regarding the detention of deeds relating to a messuage and land in Tiverton, Devon. In the period, 1518-29, Richard Drewe of Newton St Cyres, Devon sued Nicholas Ayssheford, feoffee to uses, John Barnhous, and Baldwin Merwod in Chancery regarding the fraudulent conveyance of a messuage and land called West Sellake in Uplowman and Halberton, Devon, whereof the said Baldwin was tenant in tail with reversion to complainant. In 1523 Baldwin Merwood sued Lawrence Chapman, husbandman, of Carhampton, Somerset, and Alice his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a trespass at Lygh in the parish of Old Cleeve, Somerset. In 1531 Adam William and Richard Bydwell sued Baldwin Merewode, his wife Joan, and their son and heir, Henry Merwode, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a messuage and land in West Sellake and Uplowman, Devon. In 1533 "as Baldwin Marwod esquire," he sued John Gefford, senior, yeoman, of Norton, Somerset, and Richard Gefford, husbandman, of Wellington, Somerset, in a Devonshire action in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. In 1538 Baldwin Marwoode sued Joan Horn, widow in the Court of Common Pleas to recover goods unlawfully withheld from his possession. In 1544, as "Baldwin Marwode sued Edward Heyne, husbandman, of Halberton, Devon in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. His widow, Joan, was a legatee in the 1545 will of her son, Henry Marwood. In the period, 1547-1553, Thomas Rede sued Joan Marwood and John and Bernard her sons and others in the Court of the Star Chamber regarding cutting and carrying wheat at Uplowman, Devon. In the period, 1553-55, the dean and chapter of Bristol sued Joan Marwoode in Chancery regarding rent of the parsonage of Halberton (Holberton), Devon, of the demise of the late monastery of St Augustine's, Bristol.
References:
Western Antiquary 9 (1890): 77-78 (will of Henry Marwood). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1038, rot. 332d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/H8/CP40no1038/bCP40no1038dorses/IMG_0332.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1068, rot. 176f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1068/aCP40no1068fronts/IMG_0176.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1076, rot. 5198f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1076/aCP40no1076fronts/IMG_5198.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1096, rot. 1965f (available at
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1096/aCP40no1096fronts/IMG_1965.htm).
Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1120, rot. 7579d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/H8/CP40no1120/bCP40no1120dorses/IMG_7579.htm). National Archives, C 1/391/24; C 1/496/44; C 1/1330/69-74; REQ 2/5/211; REQ 2/5/260; STAC 3/2/2.
Children of Baldwin Marwood, Esq., by Joan _____:
i. Henry Marwood, born say 1510. He was admitted a member of Lincoln's Inn in 1532. In 1537 Henry Marwode [Marwood] and Henry Chyverton (or Chynerton) sued Philip Rocetter [Rossiter], Gent., of Combe St. Nicholas, Somerset in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a recognizance bond Baildon, Records of the Honorable Society of Lincoln's Inn 1 (1896): 47. Henry Marwood left a will dated 20 June 1545, proved 13 Sept. 1547. Western Antiquary 9 (1890): 77-78 (will of Henry Marwood). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1092, rot. 3942d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1092/bCP40no1092dorses/IMG_3942.htm).
ii. John Marwood. He was a legatee in the 1545 will of his brother, Henry Marwood. Western Antiquary 9 (1890): 77-78 (will of Henry Marwood).
iii. Bernard Marwood, of Halberton, Devon. He was a legatee in the 1545 will of his brother, Henry Marwood. He died before 14 Oct. 1581. He married _____. They had one son, John (living 1581), and one daughter, Fortune (living 1581). Western Antiquary 9 (1890): 77-78 (will of Henry Marwood).
iv. daughter, married Philip Rossiter, Gent., of Combe St. Nicholas, Somerset.
In 1537 Henry Marwode [Marwood] and Henry Chyverton (or Chynerton) sued Philip Rocetter [Rossiter], Gent., of Combe St. Nicholas, Somerset in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a recognizance bond [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1092, rot. 3942d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1092/bCP40no1092dorses/IMG_3942.htm).
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Jul 19, 2013, 12:30:43 AM7/19/13
to
On Thursday, July 18, 2013 8:24:53 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Doug ~
>
>
>
> I've assembled various records relating to Baldwin Marwood, Esquire (died c.1545), his wife, Joan, and their children. I don't find any immediate indication of Baldwin's parentage, but I believe he was a son of William Marwood, of Westacot (in Marwood), Devon, by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth Ashford. I might note that Baldwin Marwood is mentioned in connection with a Nicholas Ayssheford in a Chancery lawsuit dated 1518-29.
>
>
>
> According to a online website, Baldwin Marwood was a servant of Countess of Devon in 1524. He succeeded William Marwood as tenant of Exminster. He was granted annuity of L3/6/8 by Marquis in 1525 for good service. I believe these online statements are correct. I'm uncertain as to the identity of William Marwood who preceded him as tenant of Exminster.
>
>
>
> Any additions would be much appreciated.
>
>
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
What exactly is the "online website" that provides the information you state above? A quick Googling finds only two websites which state this information - exactly as you stated it here, but with one major omission. The first is the Gen-Med post of 1997 that I mentioned earlier in this thread, and the second is here (and seems to be copied from, or the source of, the Gen-Med post):
> Dear Doug ~
>
>
>
> I've assembled various records relating to Baldwin Marwood, Esquire (died c.1545), his wife, Joan, and their children. I don't find any immediate indication of Baldwin's parentage, but I believe he was a son of William Marwood, of Westacot (in Marwood), Devon, by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth Ashford. I might note that Baldwin Marwood is mentioned in connection with a Nicholas Ayssheford in a Chancery lawsuit dated 1518-29.
>
>
>
> According to a online website, Baldwin Marwood was a servant of Countess of Devon in 1524. He succeeded William Marwood as tenant of Exminster. He was granted annuity of L3/6/8 by Marquis in 1525 for good service. I believe these online statements are correct. I'm uncertain as to the identity of William Marwood who preceded him as tenant of Exminster.
>
>
>
> Any additions would be much appreciated.
>
>
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
http://queryblog.tudorhistory.org/2012/11/question-from-ben-evidence-of-tudor.html
Do you have another source for the information you posted above? If not, perhaps you failed to notice that this site identifies Baldwin as a son of the YOUNGER William Marwood and Joan Courtenay. It's hard to see how you can consider this site reliable and say that "I believe these online statements are correct" when the site makes an error such as this.
Your proposed parentage for Baldwin may fit chronologically (or it may not), but that's not sufficient reason to reach a conclusion on the matter. In particular, there's no reason to assume that Baldwin was the son of William Marwood's second wife rather than his first wife - if he was in fact a son of William at all. The connection, such as it is, with Nicholas Ayshford is not adequate justification for such a conclusion.
BTW, as Brad has mentioned, we still haven't seen good evidence that Elizabeth Ashford was the daughter of William Ashford and Joan Cary - on whom this supposed royal descent now depends.
al...@mindspring.com
Jul 19, 2013, 8:18:36 AM7/19/13
to
On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 10:59:38 PM UTC-4, Brad Verity wrote:
> There has been much confusion over the identity of Elizabeth, the first wife of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland (d. 1489). Most sources make her the daughter of either a William Hingeston of Wonwell, or a Robert Hingeston of Wonwell.
>
>
>
> It was Wedgwood's HOP, in its biographies for William Hingeston (called Henston) of Wonwell and Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland, that first pointed out the fact that Elizabeth was not born a Hingeston, but rather was a Hingeston widow. William Hingeston died in 1458 (will proved on 6 May), and his widow Elizabeth shortly after married Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland. But Wedgwood did not venture a guess as to her parentage.
>
>
>
> Wonwell is Wonwell Court in the parish of Kingston, Devon:
>
> http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-99637-wonwell-court-kingston-devon
>
>
>
> Luckily a genealogist named John Benson solved the problem in an article that I can only catch snippets of in Google Books. It's in 'Devon & Cornwall Notes & Queries', either Volume 25 or 26 (1952-53), pp. 100-102. Using heraldry on a later Courtenay of Molland tomb, Mr. Benson determined: "The Hingestons acquired Wonwell by marriage with the heiress of Wonwell...satisfied that I have hit on the right solution, and not only identified this coat, but with it have settled that Elisabeth's maiden name was 'de Wonwell'!! Which makes it clear how helpful it is to have the Association to come and look into one's genealogical conundrums!":
>
> http://books.google.ca/books?ei=T_3lUayLNI_oiALXuoG4Dg&id=1lBJAAAAMAAJ&dq=Philip+Courtenay+Wonwell&q=Wonwell#search_anchor
>
>
>
> In 1791, Sir William Pole writes: "Wonewell was the dwellinge place of Thomas de Wonewell, anno 24 of Kinge Edw. I. It contynewed in the name of Wonewell unto Kinge Henry 6 time; John Wonewell, the laft of yt name. Theire succeeded in this land Robert Hingeston..."
>
> http://books.google.ca/books?id=WF4OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA306&dq=John+Wonewell&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-v_lUaHdJqKoiQKriICIDg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=John%20Wonewell&f=false
>
>
>
> Elizabeth Wonwell was no doubt the daughter of this John Wonwell of Wonwell Court who died in the reign of Henry VI. We know from the 1458 will of her first husband William Hingeston that her mother's name was Jane, and that she was still alive:
>
> http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igmpostem.cgi?op=show&app=jweber¬ify=GNxuisph2uKJGUfPOuo53bzgUVmFTmHm&key=I33555&return=%3Ca+href%3D%22%2Fcgi-bin%2Figm.cgi%3Fop%3DGET%26amp%3Bdb%3Djweber%26amp%3Bid%3DI33555%22%3EReturn+to+WorldConnect%3C%2Fa%3E
>
>
>
> William Hingeston mentions daughters Elizabeth and Jane in his will, and by their first names, these would seem to be his daughters by Elizabeth Wonwell. But they also had a son and heir, Robert Hingeston of Wonwell Court (d. 28 Jan. 1488). Robert's IPM states that his son & heir John Hingeston was aged 12 and more, so born 1475/76. This matches well with Robert himself likely being born in the 1450s. Robert Hingeston married Margaret Cotterall (d. 26 Oct. 1508), and they had two sons and four daughters. Robert's IPM also mentions that "by deed dated 7th April 19 Edward iv (1479) he enfeoffed Philip Courtenay Kt and Edward Courtenay, Thos. Coterell, Wm. Fortescue Esqs. of the undermentioned lands in Kingston". The Sir Philip Courtenay whom he made one of his feoffees in 1479 was his stepfather, Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland (d. 1489):
>
> http://www-civ.eng.cam.ac.uk/cjb/hingston/earlyhingstons.htm
>
>
>
> Robert Hingeston's widow Margaret Caterall married 2ndly, as his second wife, William Ayshford of Ayshford Court (b. 1456, d. 17 July 1508). This William Ayshford was the nephew of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland's second wife, Elizabeth Ayshford Marwood. So the widow of Sir Philip Courtenay's stepson married his nephew-by-marriage. Furthermore, Agnes Hingeston, one of the four daughters of Robert Hingeston & Margaret Caterall, married her step-brother Robert Ayshford, the son of William Ayshford by his first wife Elizabeth Francis. When Philip Hingeston, the younger son of Robert Hingeston & Margaret Catterall, died unmarried in 1508, his sister Agnes & her husband Robert Ayshford inherited Wonwell Court, and it continued in the Ayshford family down to the 18th century:
>
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ayshford/Ayshfords%20of%20Wonwell.html
>
>
>
> As Elizabeth Wonwell is an ancestress of the Courtenays of Molland, the Strodes of Newnham, and hundreds of other families through her second marriage to Sir Philip Courtenay (d. 1489), as well as ancestress of the Ayshfords of Wonwell Court & several other families through her first marriage to William Hingeston (d. 1458), it's nice to have her paternal family identified. A combing through early 15th-century Devon Feets of Fines, Feudal Aids, Patent Rolls, etc, may uncover more information about her father John Wonwell of Wonwell Court (whose ancestry apparently can be traced back to the reign of Edward I), and identify the parentage of her mother Jane.
>
>
>
> Cheers, ------Brad
Thank you gentlemen.
I will keep digging.
Doug Smith
> There has been much confusion over the identity of Elizabeth, the first wife of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland (d. 1489). Most sources make her the daughter of either a William Hingeston of Wonwell, or a Robert Hingeston of Wonwell.
>
>
>
> It was Wedgwood's HOP, in its biographies for William Hingeston (called Henston) of Wonwell and Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland, that first pointed out the fact that Elizabeth was not born a Hingeston, but rather was a Hingeston widow. William Hingeston died in 1458 (will proved on 6 May), and his widow Elizabeth shortly after married Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland. But Wedgwood did not venture a guess as to her parentage.
>
>
>
> Wonwell is Wonwell Court in the parish of Kingston, Devon:
>
> http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-99637-wonwell-court-kingston-devon
>
>
>
> Luckily a genealogist named John Benson solved the problem in an article that I can only catch snippets of in Google Books. It's in 'Devon & Cornwall Notes & Queries', either Volume 25 or 26 (1952-53), pp. 100-102. Using heraldry on a later Courtenay of Molland tomb, Mr. Benson determined: "The Hingestons acquired Wonwell by marriage with the heiress of Wonwell...satisfied that I have hit on the right solution, and not only identified this coat, but with it have settled that Elisabeth's maiden name was 'de Wonwell'!! Which makes it clear how helpful it is to have the Association to come and look into one's genealogical conundrums!":
>
> http://books.google.ca/books?ei=T_3lUayLNI_oiALXuoG4Dg&id=1lBJAAAAMAAJ&dq=Philip+Courtenay+Wonwell&q=Wonwell#search_anchor
>
>
>
> In 1791, Sir William Pole writes: "Wonewell was the dwellinge place of Thomas de Wonewell, anno 24 of Kinge Edw. I. It contynewed in the name of Wonewell unto Kinge Henry 6 time; John Wonewell, the laft of yt name. Theire succeeded in this land Robert Hingeston..."
>
> http://books.google.ca/books?id=WF4OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA306&dq=John+Wonewell&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-v_lUaHdJqKoiQKriICIDg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=John%20Wonewell&f=false
>
>
>
> Elizabeth Wonwell was no doubt the daughter of this John Wonwell of Wonwell Court who died in the reign of Henry VI. We know from the 1458 will of her first husband William Hingeston that her mother's name was Jane, and that she was still alive:
>
> http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igmpostem.cgi?op=show&app=jweber¬ify=GNxuisph2uKJGUfPOuo53bzgUVmFTmHm&key=I33555&return=%3Ca+href%3D%22%2Fcgi-bin%2Figm.cgi%3Fop%3DGET%26amp%3Bdb%3Djweber%26amp%3Bid%3DI33555%22%3EReturn+to+WorldConnect%3C%2Fa%3E
>
>
>
> William Hingeston mentions daughters Elizabeth and Jane in his will, and by their first names, these would seem to be his daughters by Elizabeth Wonwell. But they also had a son and heir, Robert Hingeston of Wonwell Court (d. 28 Jan. 1488). Robert's IPM states that his son & heir John Hingeston was aged 12 and more, so born 1475/76. This matches well with Robert himself likely being born in the 1450s. Robert Hingeston married Margaret Cotterall (d. 26 Oct. 1508), and they had two sons and four daughters. Robert's IPM also mentions that "by deed dated 7th April 19 Edward iv (1479) he enfeoffed Philip Courtenay Kt and Edward Courtenay, Thos. Coterell, Wm. Fortescue Esqs. of the undermentioned lands in Kingston". The Sir Philip Courtenay whom he made one of his feoffees in 1479 was his stepfather, Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland (d. 1489):
>
> http://www-civ.eng.cam.ac.uk/cjb/hingston/earlyhingstons.htm
>
>
>
> Robert Hingeston's widow Margaret Caterall married 2ndly, as his second wife, William Ayshford of Ayshford Court (b. 1456, d. 17 July 1508). This William Ayshford was the nephew of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland's second wife, Elizabeth Ayshford Marwood. So the widow of Sir Philip Courtenay's stepson married his nephew-by-marriage. Furthermore, Agnes Hingeston, one of the four daughters of Robert Hingeston & Margaret Caterall, married her step-brother Robert Ayshford, the son of William Ayshford by his first wife Elizabeth Francis. When Philip Hingeston, the younger son of Robert Hingeston & Margaret Catterall, died unmarried in 1508, his sister Agnes & her husband Robert Ayshford inherited Wonwell Court, and it continued in the Ayshford family down to the 18th century:
>
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ayshford/Ayshfords%20of%20Wonwell.html
>
>
>
> As Elizabeth Wonwell is an ancestress of the Courtenays of Molland, the Strodes of Newnham, and hundreds of other families through her second marriage to Sir Philip Courtenay (d. 1489), as well as ancestress of the Ayshfords of Wonwell Court & several other families through her first marriage to William Hingeston (d. 1458), it's nice to have her paternal family identified. A combing through early 15th-century Devon Feets of Fines, Feudal Aids, Patent Rolls, etc, may uncover more information about her father John Wonwell of Wonwell Court (whose ancestry apparently can be traced back to the reign of Edward I), and identify the parentage of her mother Jane.
>
>
>
> Cheers, ------Brad
Thank you gentlemen.
I will keep digging.
Doug Smith
Douglas Richardson
Jul 19, 2013, 12:09:00 PM7/19/13
to
Dear Doug ~
Since yesterday, I've found still more records relating to Baldwin Marwood, Esquire (died c.1545), his wife, Joan, and their children. Among other things, I've added a new daughter, Philippe Marwood, who married John Warre. I've also included several new references to additional lawsuits.
Baldwin Marwood, Esq., appears to have held an estate called West Sellake located midway between the parishes of Uplowman and Halberton, Devon. Here is a weblink to find the location of the modern Sellake Farm in Uplowman:
https://maps.google.co.uk/
I note that Sellake Farm lies due west of Burlescombe, Devon, which is the the home parish of Baldwin Marwood's potential grandfather, William Ashford. It also lies due east of Tiverton, which is the site of Tiverton Castle, which I believe was the residence of Katherine, Countess of Devon.
As I stated earlier, I don't find any immediate indication of Baldwin's parentage, but I believe he was a son of William Marwood, of Westacot (in Marwood), Devon, by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth Ashford. I might note that Baldwin Marwood is mentioned in connection with a Nicholas Ayssheford in a Chancery lawsuit dated 1518-29.
According to a online website, Baldwin Marwood was a servant of Countess of Devon in 1524, which fact I've now confirmed.
The online website also alleges that he succeeded William Marwood as tenant of Exminster, and that he was granted annuity of L3/6/8 by Henry Courtenay, Marquis in 1525 for good service. I believe these statements are correct.
The record immediately below proves that William Marwood, Esq., who I believe to be Baldwin Marwood's brother, employed Henry Courtenay, Earl of Devon, as a feoffee in 1513. The evidence suggests that the Marwood family were closely associated with both Katherine, Countess of Devon, and her son, Henry Courtenay, Earl of Devon.
Cornwall Record Office, Edgcumbe of Cotehele and Mount Edgcumbe, ME/758/2
Date: 18 September 1513
Grant
1 William Merwode, Esq.
2 Henry Courtenay, Earl of Devon, Amice Polett, Kt., Jn. Kaylway Esq., Jn. Thomas and Mich. Waygh, clerk
All 1's lands etc. in Bukyngton alias Byckyngton Chuddelegh, Hystor, Seggewyk, Hares, Knyghton, Hethfeld, Brydford, Exeter, Ede, Ynggarleghe and Edeforde in Devon
Apptd. attorneys: Rich. Wanyell and Thos. Coram.
Any additions would be greatly appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Marwood Family
I. Baldwin Marwood, Esq., of West Sellake (in Uplowman), Devon, born say 1480. He married Joan _____. They had three sons, Henry (or Harry), Gent., John, and Bernard, and two daughters, _____ (wife of Philip Rossiter, Gent.) and Philippe (wife of John Warre). In the period, 1492-1547, Baldwin Marwoode sued Robert Harryce, Citizen and draper of London, in the Court of Requests regarding the apprenticeship of the plaintiff to the defendant. In 1513 Lewis Pollard, King's serjeant-at-law, leased the manor of Oakford, Devon to Baldwin Marwood and six other feoffees. In the period, 1515-18, John Button and Isabel, his wife, daughter and heir of Henry Way, sued Baldwin Marwood, gentleman, alias esquire, in Chancery regarding the detention of deeds relating to a messuage and land in Tiverton, Devon. In the period, 1518-29, Richard Drewe of Newton St Cyres, Devon sued Nicholas Ayssheford, feoffee to uses, John Barnhous, and Baldwin Merwod in Chancery regarding the fraudulent conveyance of a messuage and land called West Sellake in Uplowman and Halberton, Devon, whereof the said Baldwin was tenant in tail with reversion to complainant. In 1523 Baldwin Merwood sued Lawrence Chapman, husbandman, of Carhampton, Somerset, and Alice his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a trespass at Lygh in the parish of Old Cleeve, Somerset. In 1524 Baldwin Marwode received 16s. 8d. payment as wages, he then being a servant to Katherine, Countess of Devon. In 1530 Baldwin Marwode sued John Fenymore, husbandman, of Holsworthy, Devon in the Court of the King's Bench regarding a trespass in Holsworthy, Devon. In 1531 Adam William and Richard Bydwell sued Baldwin Merewode, his wife Joan, and their son and heir, Henry Merwode, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a messuage and land in West Sellake and Uplowman, Devon. In 1533 "as Baldwin Marwod esquire," he sued John Gefford, senior, yeoman, of Norton, Somerset, and Richard Gefford, husbandman, of Wellington, Somerset, in a Devonshire action in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. In 1538 Baldwin Marwoode sued Joan Horn, widow in the Court of Common Pleas to recover goods unlawfully withheld from his possession. In 1544, as "Baldwin Marwode sued Edward Heyne, husbandman, of Halberton, Devon in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. In the period, 1544-51, Joan, late the wife of Baldwin Marwode, sued Roger Kyne in Chancery regarding detention of deeds relating to lands in Uplowman, Devon. His widow, Joan, was a legatee in the 1545 will of her son, Henry Marwood. In the period, 1547-1553, Thomas Rede sued Joan Marwood and John and Bernard her sons and others in the Court of the Star Chamber regarding cutting and carrying wheat at Uplowman, Devon. In the period, 1553-55, the dean and chapter of Bristol sued Joan Marwoode in Chancery regarding rent of the parsonage of Halberton (Holberton), Devon, of the demise of the late monastery of St Augustine's, Bristol.
References:
Brewer, Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, of the Reign of Henry VIII 4(1) (1870): 341. Western Antiquary 3 (1884): 83; 9 (1890): 77-78 (will of Henry Marwood). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1038, rot. 332d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/H8/CP40no1038/bCP40no1038dorses/IMG_0332.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1068, rot. 176f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1068/aCP40no1068fronts/IMG_0176.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1076, rot. 5198f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1076/aCP40no1076fronts/IMG_5198.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1096, rot. 1965f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1096/aCP40no1096fronts/IMG_1965.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1120, rot. 7579d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/H8/CP40no1120/bCP40no1120dorses/IMG_7579.htm). Court of King's Bench, KB27/1074, rot. 4481d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/KB27no1074/bKB27no1074dorses/IMG_4481.htm).
National Archives, C 1/391/24; C 1/496/44; C 1/1142/22; C 1/1330/69-74; REQ 2/5/211; REQ 2/5/260; STAC 3/2/2. Devon Record Office: Oakford, 1186M/F 1 (available at www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).
Children of Baldwin Marwood, Esq., by Joan _____:
i. Henry (or Harry) Marwood, Gent., born say 1510. He was admitted a member of Lincoln's Inn in 1532. In 1537 Henry Marwode [Marwood] and Henry Chyverton (or Chynerton) sued Philip Rocetter [Rossiter], Gent., of Combe St. Nicholas, Somerset in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a recognizance bond Baildon, Records of the Honorable Society of Lincoln's Inn 1 (1896): 47. In 1544-47, Thomas Rede, merchant, of Uplowman, Devon sued Harry Marwod, gentleman, son of Baldwin Marwod, and Nicholas Helyer, his tenant in Chancery regarding messuages and lands in Uplowman, Devon, formerly of John Pasmore and Cecily his wife. Henry Marwood left a will dated 20 June 1545, proved 13 Sept. 1547. Western Antiquary 9 (1890): 77-78 (will of Henry Marwood). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1092, rot. 3942d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1092/bCP40no1092dorses/IMG_3942.htm). National Archives, C 1/1155/12-16.
ii. John Marwood. He was a legatee in the 1545 will of his brother, Henry Marwood. In the period, 1556-58, John son of Baldwin Marwode, gentleman sued Edward Drewe in Chancery regarding messuage and lands in Halberton, formerly of John Crosse. Western Antiquary 9 (1890): 77-78 (will of Henry Marwood). National Archives, C 1/1453/22.
iii. Bernard Marwood, of Halberton, Devon. He was a legatee in the 1545 will of his brother, Henry Marwood. He died before 14 Oct. 1581. He married _____. They had one son, John (living 1581), and one daughter, Fortune (living 1581). Western Antiquary 9 (1890): 77-78 (will of Henry Marwood).
iv. _____ (daughter), married Philip Rossiter, Gent., of Combe St. Nicholas, Somerset. In 1530 Henry Courtenay, Marquess of Exeter, sued Philip Rocetter, Gent., of Combe St. Nicholas, Somerset, Thomas Rocetter, clerk, of Lamport, Elizabeth Rocetter, widow, of Lamport, and five others in the Court of the King's Bench regarding a trespass. In 1537 Henry Marwode [Marwood] and Henry Chyverton (or Chynerton) sued Philip Rocetter [Rossiter], Gent., of Combe St. Nicholas, Somerset in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a recognizance bond [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1092, rot. 3942d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1092/bCP40no1092dorses/IMG_3942.htm). Court of King's Bench, KB27/1074, rot. 4304f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/KB27no1074/aKB27no1074fronts/IMG_4304.htm).
v. Philippe Marwood, married in 1544 John Warre. St. George Vis. of Somerset 1623 (H.S.P. 11) (1876): 116 (Warre ped.: "Philippa d. of Baldwin Marwood of West Zealock in Som. 2nd w. s.p. = John Warre 2nd s. of Sir Richard, Esq. = Eliz. d. of Sir Nich. Wadham of Merifield 1st w. widow of Ed. Bamfield of Poltim or Poltimore in Devon."). Somerset Archive and Record Service, Sanford family of Nynehead, personal and estate papers, DD\SF/788 (Marr. settlement. Re int. marr. of Baldewyne Marwood's dau. Phyllypp[a] & John Warre Date: 1544 Estate in Som. to the value of £10 per annum).
Since yesterday, I've found still more records relating to Baldwin Marwood, Esquire (died c.1545), his wife, Joan, and their children. Among other things, I've added a new daughter, Philippe Marwood, who married John Warre. I've also included several new references to additional lawsuits.
Baldwin Marwood, Esq., appears to have held an estate called West Sellake located midway between the parishes of Uplowman and Halberton, Devon. Here is a weblink to find the location of the modern Sellake Farm in Uplowman:
https://maps.google.co.uk/
I note that Sellake Farm lies due west of Burlescombe, Devon, which is the the home parish of Baldwin Marwood's potential grandfather, William Ashford. It also lies due east of Tiverton, which is the site of Tiverton Castle, which I believe was the residence of Katherine, Countess of Devon.
As I stated earlier, I don't find any immediate indication of Baldwin's parentage, but I believe he was a son of William Marwood, of Westacot (in Marwood), Devon, by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth Ashford. I might note that Baldwin Marwood is mentioned in connection with a Nicholas Ayssheford in a Chancery lawsuit dated 1518-29.
According to a online website, Baldwin Marwood was a servant of Countess of Devon in 1524, which fact I've now confirmed.
The online website also alleges that he succeeded William Marwood as tenant of Exminster, and that he was granted annuity of L3/6/8 by Henry Courtenay, Marquis in 1525 for good service. I believe these statements are correct.
The record immediately below proves that William Marwood, Esq., who I believe to be Baldwin Marwood's brother, employed Henry Courtenay, Earl of Devon, as a feoffee in 1513. The evidence suggests that the Marwood family were closely associated with both Katherine, Countess of Devon, and her son, Henry Courtenay, Earl of Devon.
Cornwall Record Office, Edgcumbe of Cotehele and Mount Edgcumbe, ME/758/2
Date: 18 September 1513
Grant
1 William Merwode, Esq.
2 Henry Courtenay, Earl of Devon, Amice Polett, Kt., Jn. Kaylway Esq., Jn. Thomas and Mich. Waygh, clerk
All 1's lands etc. in Bukyngton alias Byckyngton Chuddelegh, Hystor, Seggewyk, Hares, Knyghton, Hethfeld, Brydford, Exeter, Ede, Ynggarleghe and Edeforde in Devon
Apptd. attorneys: Rich. Wanyell and Thos. Coram.
Any additions would be greatly appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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I. Baldwin Marwood, Esq., of West Sellake (in Uplowman), Devon, born say 1480. He married Joan _____. They had three sons, Henry (or Harry), Gent., John, and Bernard, and two daughters, _____ (wife of Philip Rossiter, Gent.) and Philippe (wife of John Warre). In the period, 1492-1547, Baldwin Marwoode sued Robert Harryce, Citizen and draper of London, in the Court of Requests regarding the apprenticeship of the plaintiff to the defendant. In 1513 Lewis Pollard, King's serjeant-at-law, leased the manor of Oakford, Devon to Baldwin Marwood and six other feoffees. In the period, 1515-18, John Button and Isabel, his wife, daughter and heir of Henry Way, sued Baldwin Marwood, gentleman, alias esquire, in Chancery regarding the detention of deeds relating to a messuage and land in Tiverton, Devon. In the period, 1518-29, Richard Drewe of Newton St Cyres, Devon sued Nicholas Ayssheford, feoffee to uses, John Barnhous, and Baldwin Merwod in Chancery regarding the fraudulent conveyance of a messuage and land called West Sellake in Uplowman and Halberton, Devon, whereof the said Baldwin was tenant in tail with reversion to complainant. In 1523 Baldwin Merwood sued Lawrence Chapman, husbandman, of Carhampton, Somerset, and Alice his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a trespass at Lygh in the parish of Old Cleeve, Somerset. In 1524 Baldwin Marwode received 16s. 8d. payment as wages, he then being a servant to Katherine, Countess of Devon. In 1530 Baldwin Marwode sued John Fenymore, husbandman, of Holsworthy, Devon in the Court of the King's Bench regarding a trespass in Holsworthy, Devon. In 1531 Adam William and Richard Bydwell sued Baldwin Merewode, his wife Joan, and their son and heir, Henry Merwode, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a messuage and land in West Sellake and Uplowman, Devon. In 1533 "as Baldwin Marwod esquire," he sued John Gefford, senior, yeoman, of Norton, Somerset, and Richard Gefford, husbandman, of Wellington, Somerset, in a Devonshire action in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. In 1538 Baldwin Marwoode sued Joan Horn, widow in the Court of Common Pleas to recover goods unlawfully withheld from his possession. In 1544, as "Baldwin Marwode sued Edward Heyne, husbandman, of Halberton, Devon in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. In the period, 1544-51, Joan, late the wife of Baldwin Marwode, sued Roger Kyne in Chancery regarding detention of deeds relating to lands in Uplowman, Devon. His widow, Joan, was a legatee in the 1545 will of her son, Henry Marwood. In the period, 1547-1553, Thomas Rede sued Joan Marwood and John and Bernard her sons and others in the Court of the Star Chamber regarding cutting and carrying wheat at Uplowman, Devon. In the period, 1553-55, the dean and chapter of Bristol sued Joan Marwoode in Chancery regarding rent of the parsonage of Halberton (Holberton), Devon, of the demise of the late monastery of St Augustine's, Bristol.
References:
Brewer, Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, of the Reign of Henry VIII 4(1) (1870): 341. Western Antiquary 3 (1884): 83; 9 (1890): 77-78 (will of Henry Marwood). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1038, rot. 332d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/H8/CP40no1038/bCP40no1038dorses/IMG_0332.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1068, rot. 176f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1068/aCP40no1068fronts/IMG_0176.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1076, rot. 5198f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1076/aCP40no1076fronts/IMG_5198.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1096, rot. 1965f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1096/aCP40no1096fronts/IMG_1965.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1120, rot. 7579d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/H8/CP40no1120/bCP40no1120dorses/IMG_7579.htm). Court of King's Bench, KB27/1074, rot. 4481d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/KB27no1074/bKB27no1074dorses/IMG_4481.htm).
National Archives, C 1/391/24; C 1/496/44; C 1/1142/22; C 1/1330/69-74; REQ 2/5/211; REQ 2/5/260; STAC 3/2/2. Devon Record Office: Oakford, 1186M/F 1 (available at www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).
Children of Baldwin Marwood, Esq., by Joan _____:
ii. John Marwood. He was a legatee in the 1545 will of his brother, Henry Marwood. In the period, 1556-58, John son of Baldwin Marwode, gentleman sued Edward Drewe in Chancery regarding messuage and lands in Halberton, formerly of John Crosse. Western Antiquary 9 (1890): 77-78 (will of Henry Marwood). National Archives, C 1/1453/22.
iii. Bernard Marwood, of Halberton, Devon. He was a legatee in the 1545 will of his brother, Henry Marwood. He died before 14 Oct. 1581. He married _____. They had one son, John (living 1581), and one daughter, Fortune (living 1581). Western Antiquary 9 (1890): 77-78 (will of Henry Marwood).
v. Philippe Marwood, married in 1544 John Warre. St. George Vis. of Somerset 1623 (H.S.P. 11) (1876): 116 (Warre ped.: "Philippa d. of Baldwin Marwood of West Zealock in Som. 2nd w. s.p. = John Warre 2nd s. of Sir Richard, Esq. = Eliz. d. of Sir Nich. Wadham of Merifield 1st w. widow of Ed. Bamfield of Poltim or Poltimore in Devon."). Somerset Archive and Record Service, Sanford family of Nynehead, personal and estate papers, DD\SF/788 (Marr. settlement. Re int. marr. of Baldewyne Marwood's dau. Phyllypp[a] & John Warre Date: 1544 Estate in Som. to the value of £10 per annum).
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Jul 19, 2013, 6:40:07 PM7/19/13
to
On Friday, July 19, 2013 9:09:00 AM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Doug ~
>
>
>
> Since yesterday, I've found still more records relating to Baldwin Marwood, Esquire (died c.1545), his wife, Joan, and their children. Among other things, I've added a new daughter, Philippe Marwood, who married John Warre. I've also included several new references to additional lawsuits.
>
>
>
> Baldwin Marwood, Esq., appears to have held an estate called West Sellake located midway between the parishes of Uplowman and Halberton, Devon. Here is a weblink to find the location of the modern Sellake Farm in Uplowman:
>
>
>
> https://maps.google.co.uk/
>
>
>
> I note that Sellake Farm lies due west of Burlescombe, Devon, which is the the home parish of Baldwin Marwood's potential grandfather, William Ashford. It also lies due east of Tiverton, which is the site of Tiverton Castle, which I believe was the residence of Katherine, Countess of Devon.
>
>
>
> As I stated earlier, I don't find any immediate indication of Baldwin's parentage, but I believe he was a son of William Marwood, of Westacot (in Marwood), Devon, by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth Ashford. I might note that Baldwin Marwood is mentioned in connection with a Nicholas Ayssheford in a Chancery lawsuit dated 1518-29.
>
>
>
> According to a online website, Baldwin Marwood was a servant of Countess of Devon in 1524, which fact I've now confirmed.
>
>
>
> The online website also alleges that he succeeded William Marwood as tenant of Exminster, and that he was granted annuity of L3/6/8 by Henry Courtenay, Marquis in 1525 for good service. I believe these statements are correct.
>
>
> Dear Doug ~
>
>
>
> Since yesterday, I've found still more records relating to Baldwin Marwood, Esquire (died c.1545), his wife, Joan, and their children. Among other things, I've added a new daughter, Philippe Marwood, who married John Warre. I've also included several new references to additional lawsuits.
>
>
>
> Baldwin Marwood, Esq., appears to have held an estate called West Sellake located midway between the parishes of Uplowman and Halberton, Devon. Here is a weblink to find the location of the modern Sellake Farm in Uplowman:
>
>
>
> https://maps.google.co.uk/
>
>
>
> I note that Sellake Farm lies due west of Burlescombe, Devon, which is the the home parish of Baldwin Marwood's potential grandfather, William Ashford. It also lies due east of Tiverton, which is the site of Tiverton Castle, which I believe was the residence of Katherine, Countess of Devon.
>
>
>
> As I stated earlier, I don't find any immediate indication of Baldwin's parentage, but I believe he was a son of William Marwood, of Westacot (in Marwood), Devon, by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth Ashford. I might note that Baldwin Marwood is mentioned in connection with a Nicholas Ayssheford in a Chancery lawsuit dated 1518-29.
>
>
>
> According to a online website, Baldwin Marwood was a servant of Countess of Devon in 1524, which fact I've now confirmed.
>
>
>
> The online website also alleges that he succeeded William Marwood as tenant of Exminster, and that he was granted annuity of L3/6/8 by Henry Courtenay, Marquis in 1525 for good service. I believe these statements are correct.
>
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
In the past you've repeatedly insisted that others provide URLs for their sources. In that spirit, you have no reason to decline to identify the "online website" (as opposed to an offline website?) that you reference above and in your prior post. Or is there something embarrassing to you about this particular site?
At least you now acknowledge that William Ashford is only the "potential" grandfather of Baldwin Marwood - in other words, that Baldwin's parentage is presently just a guess. Aside from the mention of Baldwin Marwood and "a Nicholas Ayshford" in a 1518/9 lawsuit, is there any reason to conclude that Baldwin was the son of Elizabeth Ashford - if in fact he was the son of William Marwood the elder, which hasn't yet been confirmed?
Brad Verity
Jul 20, 2013, 2:37:01 AM7/20/13
to
> On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 9:20:39 AM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > If you get a copy of the Benson article in DCNQ at UCL (and according to their catalog they do have that volume), perhaps you could send me a copy via email when you get home. (If you'll be at UCLA, you're a long way from home!!)
>
> > If you get a copy of the Benson article in DCNQ at UCL (and according to their catalog they do have that volume), perhaps you could send me a copy via email when you get home. (If you'll be at UCLA, you're a long way from home!!)
>
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:45:23 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> Will do, John.
I found Volume 25 of Devon & Cornwall Notes & Queries at the UCLA LIbrary today. As John Benson's piece, simply entitled 'Molland', is very short, here is a full transcription, rather than scanning the two pages (101-102):
“The visit of the Devonshire Association to Molland in June raised the question of the identity of the coat of arms quartered with Courtenay on the fragments of an old monument now preserved behind the iron railings in front of the monument of John Courtenay. These fragments have been mistaken in the past for a double heart-coffin, such as to be seen in Beaulieu Abbey, Hants, once containing the hearts of Richard, Earl of Cornwall, and King of the Romans, and his wife Sanchia de Provence, but these stones at Molland are plainly fragments of a tomb and not heart-coffins. The coat in question shows a bend, and there is no such coat among the many recorded wives of the Courtenays of Molland, with one possible exception, that of the first Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland, to whom his father gave this property which he had acquired by his marriage with Elisabeth Hungerford, a family which had acquired it by marriage with the heiress of Bottreau. This Philip married Elisabeth, the widow of William Hingeston of Wonwell, and hitherto none of our historians have been able to identify her maiden name. The Hingestons acquired Wonwell by marriage with the heiress of Wonwell, and the Wonwells according to Berry’s Encyclopaedia Heraldica bore ‘Or on a bend azure three cross crosslets fitchy of the field’. These cross-crosslets, as is often the case, were sometimes represented as crosses patty fitchy, because it was easier to incise crosses patty than cross crosslets in certain kinds of stone. By date it must have been this William Hingeston who married the heiress of Wonwell, in which case his widow would have taken her arms of Wonwell to her second husband, Philip Courtenay, and his descendants. The bend on this shield at Molland appears to be quite plain but that may be the result of coats of whitewash, and much as I should like to do so I dare not try and get leave to scrape it with a pen-knife and find out. However, I have just found in the Appendix of Rogers’ Sepulchral Monuments a remark on this very shield, ‘apparently a bend charged with three mullets’, so that in his day there was reason to determine that the bend had three charges on it, whatever they may actually have been. I would but add that as a descendant of this marriage I am quite satisfied that I have hit on the right solution, and not only identified this coat, but with it have settled that Elisabeth’s maiden name was ‘de Wonwell’!! which makes it clear how helpful it is to have the Association to come and look into one’s genealogical conundrums!”
The heraldry on (what's left of) this Courtenay-quartered shield does seem to match close enough to the Wonwell coat-of-arms. Even more important, the chronology of the descent of Wonwell Court from the Womwells to the Hingestons, is strong enough evidence, in my opinion, to identify Elizabeth as a Wonwell.
If anyone with a stronger background in heraldry can shed any further light, it'd be much appreciated.
Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Jul 20, 2013, 12:42:05 PM7/20/13
to
Douglas Richardson
Jul 20, 2013, 4:08:42 PM7/20/13
to
It's what I thought. Mr. Benson has made a total mess of things.
First statement Mr. Benson makes is:
The Hingestons "acquired Wonwell by marriage with the heiress of Wonwell."
He provides no evidence to support that statement. Gong!
He then says there are stones at Molland, Devon which are plainly fragments of a tomb and not heart-coffins. He gives us no source for this allegation. Another gong. He states that there is a coat of arms on one of these stones quartered with Courtenay. The coat in question shows a simple bend. The bend has no charges.
He then says the arms of Wonwell are identified in Berry’s Encyclopaedia Heraldica as "Or on a bend azure three cross crosslets fitchy of the field." This might be true. But it is no match to the arms on the stone. More gongs.
Then he says Appendix of Rogers’ Sepulchral Monuments remarks on this very shield that it was "apparently a bend charged with three mullets." If true, it still doesn't match Wonwell. Mullets are stars, not cross crosslets fitchy. Still more gongs.
Having proven that the coat of arms on the stone DOESN'T match the Wonwell arms, he then says he is "quite satisfied" that he has "hit on the right solution." And that not only has he "identified this coat, but with it have settled that Elisabeth’s maiden name was ‘de Wonwell’!!" Whew!
Sadly, Mr. Benson could be right that Elizabeth, wife of William Hyndeston and Philip Courtenay, was a Wonwell heiress. But before we can accept the Wonwell heiress theory, we need actual evidence to prove the point. Since Mr. Benson has provided no such evidence, for the time being, it is necessary to leave Elizabeth's maiden name as blank. Or, if you prefer, Elizabeth NN.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
P.S. I should add that it is possible that the arms on the stone at Molland might well belong to the family of Elizabeth (______) (Hyndeston) Courtenay. But if so, then Elizabeth must belong to a family other than Wonwell, as her arms don't match the arms Benson has assigned to the Wonwell family.
First statement Mr. Benson makes is:
The Hingestons "acquired Wonwell by marriage with the heiress of Wonwell."
He provides no evidence to support that statement. Gong!
He then says there are stones at Molland, Devon which are plainly fragments of a tomb and not heart-coffins. He gives us no source for this allegation. Another gong. He states that there is a coat of arms on one of these stones quartered with Courtenay. The coat in question shows a simple bend. The bend has no charges.
He then says the arms of Wonwell are identified in Berry’s Encyclopaedia Heraldica as "Or on a bend azure three cross crosslets fitchy of the field." This might be true. But it is no match to the arms on the stone. More gongs.
Then he says Appendix of Rogers’ Sepulchral Monuments remarks on this very shield that it was "apparently a bend charged with three mullets." If true, it still doesn't match Wonwell. Mullets are stars, not cross crosslets fitchy. Still more gongs.
Having proven that the coat of arms on the stone DOESN'T match the Wonwell arms, he then says he is "quite satisfied" that he has "hit on the right solution." And that not only has he "identified this coat, but with it have settled that Elisabeth’s maiden name was ‘de Wonwell’!!" Whew!
Sadly, Mr. Benson could be right that Elizabeth, wife of William Hyndeston and Philip Courtenay, was a Wonwell heiress. But before we can accept the Wonwell heiress theory, we need actual evidence to prove the point. Since Mr. Benson has provided no such evidence, for the time being, it is necessary to leave Elizabeth's maiden name as blank. Or, if you prefer, Elizabeth NN.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
taf
Jul 20, 2013, 7:26:00 PM7/20/13
to GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
On Saturday, July 20, 2013 1:08:42 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> It's what I thought. Mr. Benson has made a total mess of things.
> First statement Mr. Benson makes is:
> The Hingestons "acquired Wonwell by marriage with the heiress of Wonwell."
> He provides no evidence to support that statement. Gong!
And therefor it must be wrong? You do realize that the standards of
> It's what I thought. Mr. Benson has made a total mess of things.
> First statement Mr. Benson makes is:
> The Hingestons "acquired Wonwell by marriage with the heiress of Wonwell."
> He provides no evidence to support that statement. Gong!
reporting scholarship have changed significantly over the past
half-century, don't you? In fact, even today there are equivalent journals
to D&CN&Q (fortunately not very many) that ask their authors if it wouldn't
be OK to leave out the references, as they "break up the flow of the
article". While D&CN&Q was improving by the '50s, Benson was a holdover
from its earlier style, where footnotes were rare in reporting such
material. It makes working with D&CN&Q frustrating at times - I spent more
than a decade tracking down the evidence for a similar off-handed
relationship statement by another author there. It says more about the
journal than the researchers - if you go to TDA, they were much more likely
to use a more modern citation style. All of the musical embellishments
aside, this says nothing of the accuracy of the statement or his general
ability as a researcher.
> He then says there are stones at Molland, Devon which are plainly
fragments of a
> tomb and not heart-coffins. He gives us no source for this allegation.
Another gong.
visited the site, what makes you think he needs a reference for his
personal observations? (Just to highlight this point, below you provided no
reference for the fact that mullets are stars and not cross crosslets
fitchy. Gong! - you see, we all make statements based on personal or
common knowledge without necessarily citing them, so it is hardly worth the
percussive salute.)
> He states that there is a coat of arms on one of these stones quartered
with Courtenay. The coat in question shows a simple bend. The bend has no
charges.>
>
says that while there are no charges evident, the whitewashing it has
undergone is such that detail on the bend might have been lost. He nest
says that at least one earlier observer noted three charges - in other
words, this insistence that it is a 'simple bend' is yours, not his. In
fact, he concluded that it had three charges, once but no longer visible.
> He then says the arms of Wonwell are identified in Berry’s Encyclopaedia
Heraldica as "Or on a bend azure three cross crosslets fitchy of the
field." This might be true. But it is no match to the arms on the stone.
More gongs.
>
doing the armchair quarterback thing here - that unlike Benson, you have
not seen the stone and are not in a position to make judgments about the
appearance or quality of the surviving inscription or to make unequivocal
proclamations about what does or doesn't match.
> Then he says Appendix of Rogers’ Sepulchral Monuments remarks on this
very shield that it was "apparently a bend charged with three mullets." If
true, it still doesn't match Wonwell. Mullets are stars, not cross
crosslets fitchy. Still more gongs.>
you see that in the first quarter of the same shield, he refers to the
charges as "roundels or mullets". If the shield was in such bad shape that
he couldn't tell the difference between circles and stars, then it is
certainly in such bade shape that following Rogers for anything more than
the number of charges present would seem unsafe, and that is all Benson
uses it for.
> Having proven that the coat of arms on the stone DOESN'T match the
Wonwell arms,
> he then says he is "quite satisfied" that he has "hit on the right
solution." And that not only has he "identified this coat, but with it
have settled that Elisabeth’s maiden name was ‘de Wonwell’!!" Whew!
>
sufficient evidence for this relationship? no, but given when he was
writing, where (the journal) he was writing, and the generation he came
from, this is hardly evidence that he was the pathetic hack he is being
made out to be. One can only hope that the next generation of scholars
don't evaluate one's own contributions with such harsh self-satisfaction.
> Sadly, Mr. Benson could be right that Elizabeth, wife of William
Hyndeston and
> Philip Courtenay, was a Wonwell heiress.
indeed.
taf
Brad Verity
Jul 21, 2013, 12:16:58 PM7/21/13
to
On Saturday, July 20, 2013 1:08:42 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> The Hingestons "acquired Wonwell by marriage with the heiress of Wonwell."
> He provides no evidence to support that statement. Gong!
John Benson did not, but I did - in my original post starting this thread a few days ago:
> He provides no evidence to support that statement. Gong!
"In 1791, Sir William Pole writes: "Wonewell was the dwellinge place of Thomas de Wonewell, anno 24 of Kinge Edw. I. It contynewed in the name of Wonewell unto Kinge Henry 6 time; John Wonewell, the laft of yt name. Theire succeeded in this land Robert Hingeston..."
http://books.google.ca/books?id=WF4OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA306&dq=John+Wonewell&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-v_lUaHdJqKoiQKriICIDg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=John%20Wonewell&f=false
http://books.google.ca/books?id=WF4OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA306&dq=John+Wonewell&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-v_lUaHdJqKoiQKriICIDg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=John%20Wonewell&f=false
> He then says there are stones at Molland, Devon which are plainly fragments of a tomb and not heart-coffins. He gives us no source for this allegation. Another gong.
For our purposes, it doesn't matter whether the shield of Courtenay quartering another coat-of-arms that features a bend, is displayed on a heart-coffin, or a tomb, or a stained glass window, or graffiti on the outside of the church. The importance is that it is in the parish church of Molland, and so is tied to a Courtenay of Molland, or one of his ancestors.
> He states that there is a coat of arms on one of these stones quartered with Courtenay. The coat in question shows a simple bend. The bend has no charges.
> He then says the arms of Wonwell are identified in Berry’s Encyclopaedia Heraldica as "Or on a bend azure three cross crosslets fitchy of the field." This might be true. But it is no match to the arms on the stone. More gongs.
http://archive.org/stream/encyclopaediaher04berr#page/n585/mode/2up
It is a partial match to the arms on the stone - there is a bend.
> Then he says Appendix of Rogers’ Sepulchral Monuments remarks on this very shield that it was "apparently a bend charged with three mullets." If true, it still doesn't match Wonwell. Mullets are stars, not cross crosslets fitchy. Still more gongs.
It's as important in that it determines what the coat cannot be: it can't be Hungerford, it can't be Champernowne, it can't be Bonville, it can't be Wake, it can't be Ayshford, etc.
> Having proven that the coat of arms on the stone DOESN'T match the Wonwell arms, he then says he is "quite satisfied" that he has "hit on the right solution." And that not only has he "identified this coat, but with it have settled that Elisabeth’s maiden name was ‘de Wonwell’!!" Whew!
> Sadly, Mr. Benson could be right that Elizabeth, wife of William Hyndeston and Philip Courtenay, was a Wonwell heiress. But before we can accept the Wonwell heiress theory, we need actual evidence to prove the point. Since Mr. Benson has provided no such evidence, for the time being, it is necessary to leave Elizabeth's maiden name as blank. Or, if you prefer, Elizabeth NN.
http://books.google.com/books?id=kjme027UeagC&pg=PA627&lpg=PA627&dq=Elizabeth+Ashford+Marwood+Courtenay&source=bl&ots=quJmHw6bli&sig=tbOTCrMPZwOMnO-Hgg7lXoTdlmw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VfnrUeuxBMrbiwK3roGIDw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Elizabeth%20Ashford%20Marwood%20Courtenay&f=false
You should have said: "He married (2nd) before 1485 ELIZABETH NN., widow and executrix of William Marwood, Esq., of Westcott (in Marwood), Devon." Since none of the sources you go on to cite as references identify this widowed Elizabeth Marwood as daughter of William Ayshford.
Also you state, "In the period, 1475-80, or 1483-85, John Broughton and Alice, his wife, daughter and heiress of Elizabeth Squire, and Lewis Pollard...", which is not correct. The abstract of the lawsuit from the National Archives, which you linked to upthread, states: "Plaintiffs: John Broughton and Alice, his wife, daughter of Elizabeth Squyer; and Lewis Pollard, son and heir of Jane Pollard, sister to the said Alice."
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C7448822
"Daughter of Elizabeth Squyer", not "daughter and heiress of Elizabeth Squire", an important distinction, as it allows the possibility that Elizabeth Squire & William Marwood had sons.
Cheers, -----Brad
al...@mindspring.com
Jul 21, 2013, 3:16:31 PM7/21/13
to
Searching thru the British library online catalogue I found the following MSS:
63. Papers relating to the cause between William Marwood and Jane his wife, in the Spiritual Court, A.D. 1607-1610. fo. 331, 334, 338, 342, 344, 346.
Lansdowne MS 162/63 : Unspecified
Marwood, William, Unspecified, of Add MS 33107
Marwood, William, Unspecified, of Egerton Ch 8200
35. William Marwood, a Merchant, thanks Mr. Hicks for a favourable turn he gave to his affairs, which were perplexed, Oct. 14, 1597.
Lansdowne MS 85/35 : Unspecified
Doug Smith
Douglas Richardson
Jul 21, 2013, 6:05:20 PM7/21/13
to
My comments are interspersed below. DR
On Sunday, July 21, 2013 10:16:58 AM UTC-6, Brad Verity wrote:
> It is a partial match to the arms on the stone - there is a bend.
A partial match is NO match at all. Benson says the stone at Molland only had a bend on it and that it possessed NO charges. Then he claimed that the charges were possibly covered by whitewash.
In truth, if charges ever existed on the bend, they would have been raised above the bend and whitewash would not be able to conceal their existence.
The stone might have been badly weathered. But, if so, the charges weren't hidden by whitewash. Even if they were weathered away, there should have been some indication that charges once existed on the stone. Mr. Benson reported no such evidence. This should be a red flag for you.
> Benson showed that the coat is a partial match to the Wonwell coat-of-arms >(bend with three charges).
Once again a partial match is no match at all. Heraldry has to match exactly before you can reach such conclusions.
Actually .... Mr. Benson proved that the Wonwell arms did NOT match the arms on the stone. As such, you'll simply have to find another family origin for Elizabeth (______) (Hyndeston) Courtenay. That's assuming that the arms on the stone at Molland even belong to this lady's family. Neither Benson or you have proven that point.
Moreover, there is no evidence that I've seen so far that William Hyndeston married an heiress, much less that she was the heiress of Wonwell. That is conjecture on your and Benson's part. Such evidence may exist. But, if so, you haven't yet presented it. When and if you find such evidence, by all means, please post it.
The passage of lands from one family to another is insufficient proof that a man's wife was the heiress of the earlier family that held those lands. Lands can pass by sale, inheritance, will, or settlement. They can also be forfeited for committing a serious crime or through rebellion. You've opted for one possible route for the passage of the Wonwell lands. But there are several other ways by which the Wonwell lands could have passed to the Hyndeston family.
On Sunday, July 21, 2013 10:16:58 AM UTC-6, Brad Verity wrote:
> It is a partial match to the arms on the stone - there is a bend.
In truth, if charges ever existed on the bend, they would have been raised above the bend and whitewash would not be able to conceal their existence.
The stone might have been badly weathered. But, if so, the charges weren't hidden by whitewash. Even if they were weathered away, there should have been some indication that charges once existed on the stone. Mr. Benson reported no such evidence. This should be a red flag for you.
> Benson showed that the coat is a partial match to the Wonwell coat-of-arms >(bend with three charges).
Actually .... Mr. Benson proved that the Wonwell arms did NOT match the arms on the stone. As such, you'll simply have to find another family origin for Elizabeth (______) (Hyndeston) Courtenay. That's assuming that the arms on the stone at Molland even belong to this lady's family. Neither Benson or you have proven that point.
Moreover, there is no evidence that I've seen so far that William Hyndeston married an heiress, much less that she was the heiress of Wonwell. That is conjecture on your and Benson's part. Such evidence may exist. But, if so, you haven't yet presented it. When and if you find such evidence, by all means, please post it.
The passage of lands from one family to another is insufficient proof that a man's wife was the heiress of the earlier family that held those lands. Lands can pass by sale, inheritance, will, or settlement. They can also be forfeited for committing a serious crime or through rebellion. You've opted for one possible route for the passage of the Wonwell lands. But there are several other ways by which the Wonwell lands could have passed to the Hyndeston family.
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Jul 21, 2013, 7:23:09 PM7/21/13
to
On Sunday, July 21, 2013 9:16:58 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
[snip]
>
> And on that criteria, Douglas, you have failed yourself & your readers, in print, four times (both of your editions of Plantagenet Ancestry &, presumably, both of your editions of Magna Carta Ancestry). You state that: "He [Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland] married (2nd) before 1485 ELIZABETH ASHFORD, widow and executrix of William Marwood, Esq., of Westacot (in Marwood), Devon, and daughter of William Ashford, of Ashford (in Burlescombe), Devon.":
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=kjme027UeagC&pg=PA627&lpg=PA627&dq=Elizabeth+Ashford+Marwood+Courtenay&source=bl&ots=quJmHw6bli&sig=tbOTCrMPZwOMnO-Hgg7lXoTdlmw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VfnrUeuxBMrbiwK3roGIDw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Elizabeth%20Ashford%20Marwood%20Courtenay&f=false
>
>
>
> You should have said: "He married (2nd) before 1485 ELIZABETH NN., widow and executrix of William Marwood, Esq., of Westcott (in Marwood), Devon." Since none of the sources you go on to cite as references identify this widowed Elizabeth Marwood as daughter of William Ayshford.
>
>
>
> Also you state, "In the period, 1475-80, or 1483-85, John Broughton and Alice, his wife, daughter and heiress of Elizabeth Squire, and Lewis Pollard...", which is not correct. The abstract of the lawsuit from the National Archives, which you linked to upthread, states: "Plaintiffs: John Broughton and Alice, his wife, daughter of Elizabeth Squyer; and Lewis Pollard, son and heir of Jane Pollard, sister to the said Alice."
>
> http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C7448822
>
>
>
> "Daughter of Elizabeth Squyer", not "daughter and heiress of Elizabeth Squire", an important distinction, as it allows the possibility that Elizabeth Squire & William Marwood had sons.
>
>
>
> Cheers, -----Brad
Brad, I’m glad you brought up the issue of the evidence (or lack thereof) in DR’s PA and MCA for Elizabeth Ashford being the daughter of William Ashford, because the published history of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland and his supposed two wives in these books and ther predecessors is rather interesting – and not very encouraging.
In the 1st Faris edition of PA (1995), Sir Philip Courtenay is shown to have only one wife: Elizabeth the widow of William Hyndestone (who is now proposed, despite DR’s vociferous objections, to be the daughter of John Wonwell). Only one source is listed: Vivian’s edition of the visitations of Devon.
In the 2nd Faris edition of PA (1999), Sir Philip Courtenay has acquired a second wife: Elizabeth, widow of William Marwood, and daughter of William Ashford. But three of the four sources cited (Vivian’s Devon again, plus Wedgwood’s HOP and Burke’s Commoners) assign him only the first (Hyndeston/Hingeston) wife. So, we’re left with the final source, which I’m in the process of tracking down, as the only possible one that names Elizabeth Ashford. This source is identified only as “Early Chancery Proceedings, 2:254” and is not listed in the book’s bibliography.
The 2004 Richardson edition of PA essentially copies the 1999 Faris version word for word, with only minor changes. He does provide a better identification of the fourth (and critical) source above as “List of Early Chancery Proceedings 2 (PRO Lists and Indexes 16) (1903):254”. And he lists three additional sources, of which two (Westcote’s View of Devonshire, and Vivian’s Cornwall visitations) give only one wife (not Elizabeth Ashford) to Sir Philip Courtenay. The final source is an article in The Bulletin of the Institute of Historical Research for which DR gives only a volume/page reference (45:230-246 – 1972) but no title for the article. This source may – or may not – mention Elizabeth Ashford.
The 2005 edition of Richardson’s MCA is exactly identical to the 2004 PA version of Sir Philip Courtenay. However its bibliography (which is much improved over the 2004 PA, especially in its handling of periodical articles) fails to even list the final source noted above.
I don’t have access to the later editions of PA and RPA, so I’ll leave it to others to determine if they add anything to this discussion.
As I mentioned, I’m in the process of tracking down the two sources above, but that will take some time. Of course this matter could be settled quite quickly if DR were, in a collegial manner, to tell us exactly what these two sources say about the connection of Elizabeth Ashford to Sir Philip Courtenay and how (if at all) they establish her parentage. But I’m not holding my breath… Perhaps others in the group may have easier access to either or both of these sources.
It seems ironic (to put it mildly) that DR is so exercised about what he deems to be the mis-identification of Elizabeth the wife of William Hyndeston and Sir Philip Courtenay as the possible (or probable) daughter of John Wonwell, while elsewhere in this thread he is so adamant (as Brad notes in his final paragraph above) that Baldwin Marwood must be the son of William Marwood and Elizabeth Ashford – and repeatedly refuses to provide any sources or evidence to support this conclusion.
[snip]
>
> And on that criteria, Douglas, you have failed yourself & your readers, in print, four times (both of your editions of Plantagenet Ancestry &, presumably, both of your editions of Magna Carta Ancestry). You state that: "He [Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland] married (2nd) before 1485 ELIZABETH ASHFORD, widow and executrix of William Marwood, Esq., of Westacot (in Marwood), Devon, and daughter of William Ashford, of Ashford (in Burlescombe), Devon.":
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=kjme027UeagC&pg=PA627&lpg=PA627&dq=Elizabeth+Ashford+Marwood+Courtenay&source=bl&ots=quJmHw6bli&sig=tbOTCrMPZwOMnO-Hgg7lXoTdlmw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VfnrUeuxBMrbiwK3roGIDw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Elizabeth%20Ashford%20Marwood%20Courtenay&f=false
>
>
>
> You should have said: "He married (2nd) before 1485 ELIZABETH NN., widow and executrix of William Marwood, Esq., of Westcott (in Marwood), Devon." Since none of the sources you go on to cite as references identify this widowed Elizabeth Marwood as daughter of William Ayshford.
>
>
>
> Also you state, "In the period, 1475-80, or 1483-85, John Broughton and Alice, his wife, daughter and heiress of Elizabeth Squire, and Lewis Pollard...", which is not correct. The abstract of the lawsuit from the National Archives, which you linked to upthread, states: "Plaintiffs: John Broughton and Alice, his wife, daughter of Elizabeth Squyer; and Lewis Pollard, son and heir of Jane Pollard, sister to the said Alice."
>
> http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C7448822
>
>
>
> "Daughter of Elizabeth Squyer", not "daughter and heiress of Elizabeth Squire", an important distinction, as it allows the possibility that Elizabeth Squire & William Marwood had sons.
>
>
>
> Cheers, -----Brad
In the 1st Faris edition of PA (1995), Sir Philip Courtenay is shown to have only one wife: Elizabeth the widow of William Hyndestone (who is now proposed, despite DR’s vociferous objections, to be the daughter of John Wonwell). Only one source is listed: Vivian’s edition of the visitations of Devon.
In the 2nd Faris edition of PA (1999), Sir Philip Courtenay has acquired a second wife: Elizabeth, widow of William Marwood, and daughter of William Ashford. But three of the four sources cited (Vivian’s Devon again, plus Wedgwood’s HOP and Burke’s Commoners) assign him only the first (Hyndeston/Hingeston) wife. So, we’re left with the final source, which I’m in the process of tracking down, as the only possible one that names Elizabeth Ashford. This source is identified only as “Early Chancery Proceedings, 2:254” and is not listed in the book’s bibliography.
The 2004 Richardson edition of PA essentially copies the 1999 Faris version word for word, with only minor changes. He does provide a better identification of the fourth (and critical) source above as “List of Early Chancery Proceedings 2 (PRO Lists and Indexes 16) (1903):254”. And he lists three additional sources, of which two (Westcote’s View of Devonshire, and Vivian’s Cornwall visitations) give only one wife (not Elizabeth Ashford) to Sir Philip Courtenay. The final source is an article in The Bulletin of the Institute of Historical Research for which DR gives only a volume/page reference (45:230-246 – 1972) but no title for the article. This source may – or may not – mention Elizabeth Ashford.
The 2005 edition of Richardson’s MCA is exactly identical to the 2004 PA version of Sir Philip Courtenay. However its bibliography (which is much improved over the 2004 PA, especially in its handling of periodical articles) fails to even list the final source noted above.
I don’t have access to the later editions of PA and RPA, so I’ll leave it to others to determine if they add anything to this discussion.
As I mentioned, I’m in the process of tracking down the two sources above, but that will take some time. Of course this matter could be settled quite quickly if DR were, in a collegial manner, to tell us exactly what these two sources say about the connection of Elizabeth Ashford to Sir Philip Courtenay and how (if at all) they establish her parentage. But I’m not holding my breath… Perhaps others in the group may have easier access to either or both of these sources.
It seems ironic (to put it mildly) that DR is so exercised about what he deems to be the mis-identification of Elizabeth the wife of William Hyndeston and Sir Philip Courtenay as the possible (or probable) daughter of John Wonwell, while elsewhere in this thread he is so adamant (as Brad notes in his final paragraph above) that Baldwin Marwood must be the son of William Marwood and Elizabeth Ashford – and repeatedly refuses to provide any sources or evidence to support this conclusion.
Brad Verity
Jul 22, 2013, 1:57:07 AM7/22/13
to
On Sunday, July 21, 2013 4:23:09 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The 2004 Richardson edition of PA essentially copies the 1999 Faris version word for word, with only minor changes. He does provide a better identification of the fourth (and critical) source above as “List of Early Chancery Proceedings 2 (PRO Lists and Indexes 16) (1903):254”.
This is the book:
> The 2004 Richardson edition of PA essentially copies the 1999 Faris version word for word, with only minor changes. He does provide a better identification of the fourth (and critical) source above as “List of Early Chancery Proceedings 2 (PRO Lists and Indexes 16) (1903):254”.
http://books.google.com/books?id=JcCSPwAACAAJ&dq=Lists+and+Indexes:+List+of+early+Chancery+proceedings+preserved+in+the+Public+Record+Office.+1467-1485,,+and+undated,+Volume+2;+Volume+16&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CrzsUcaEJYTtiwLT14GQBA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA
Unfortunately it was reprinted in the 1960s, so unavailable for online view. However, all of these Chancery suits (pre-1558) - the C1 series in the National Archives - have been summarized online by the National Archives website. So basically, this source cited by Douglas is simply an index pointing to the same lawsuit that he linked to upthread. Unless the editor identifies Elizabeth, widow of William Marwood & wife of Sir Philip Courtenay, as an Ayshford in a footnote (which is highly unlikely), it is not a source that provides her birth-family identity.
> And he lists three additional sources, of which two (Westcote’s View of Devonshire, and Vivian’s Cornwall visitations) give only one wife (not Elizabeth Ashford) to Sir Philip Courtenay. The final source is an article in The Bulletin of the Institute of Historical Research for which DR gives only a volume/page reference (45:230-246 – 1972) but no title for the article. This source may – or may not – mention Elizabeth Ashford.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2281.1972.tb01464.x/abstract
I won't be able to download it (for free - I don't want to pay for it) until I return to Vancouver (so Thursday or Friday), but once I do, I'll email it to you, John.
On Sunday, July 21, 2013 3:05:20 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> The passage of lands from one family to another is insufficient proof that a man's wife was the heiress of the earlier family that held those lands. Lands can pass by sale,
> inheritance,
Which is my (and John Benson's argument) - William Hingeston held Wonwell Court in right of his wife, who inherited it from her father John Wonwell.
> will,
As far as I know, a manor could not be passed from one individual to another via will at this time (the 15th-century).
> or settlement.
I don't understand what you mean. How did one pass a manor to another by settlement?
> They can also be forfeited for committing a serious crime or through rebellion.
> You've opted for one possible route for the passage of the Wonwell lands.
> But there are several other ways by which the Wonwell lands could have passed to the Hyndeston family.
> Moreover, there is no evidence that I've seen so far that William Hyndeston married an heiress, much less that she was the heiress of Wonwell. That is conjecture on your and Benson's part. Such evidence may exist. But, if so, you haven't yet presented it. When and if you find such evidence, by all means, please post it.
You can point out on this newsgroup how I'm in error - just as I often point out on this newsgroup errors and omissions in your Plantagenet Ancestry series - when and if you find any evidence that refutes her being a Wonwell.
Cheers, -----Brad
MILLARD A.R.
Jul 22, 2013, 9:15:14 AM7/22/13
to Brad Verity, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> From: Brad Verity [mailto:royald...@hotmail.com]
> Sent: 22 July 2013 06:57
> The final source is
> an article in The Bulletin of the Institute of Historical Research for
> which DR gives only a volume/page reference (45:230-246 - 1972) but no
> title for the article. This source may - or may not - mention
> Elizabeth Ashford.
I skimmed through the print version, and there is very little mention of wives at all. I did not see any mention of Elizabeth.
Best wishes
Andrew
--
Andrew Millard - A.R.M...@durham.ac.uk
Bodimeade genealogy:�� http://community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/Bodimeade/
My family history:���� http://community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/
GenUKI Middx + London: http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/ + ../LND/
> Sent: 22 July 2013 06:57
>
> On Sunday, July 21, 2013 4:23:09 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > The 2004 Richardson edition of PA essentially copies the 1999 Faris
> version word for word, with only minor changes. He does provide a
> better identification of the fourth (and critical) source above as
> "List of Early Chancery Proceedings 2 (PRO Lists and Indexes 16)
> (1903):254".
...
> On Sunday, July 21, 2013 4:23:09 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > The 2004 Richardson edition of PA essentially copies the 1999 Faris
> version word for word, with only minor changes. He does provide a
> better identification of the fourth (and critical) source above as
> "List of Early Chancery Proceedings 2 (PRO Lists and Indexes 16)
> (1903):254".
> Unfortunately it was reprinted in the 1960s, so unavailable for online
> view. However, all of these Chancery suits (pre-1558) - the C1 series
> in the National Archives - have been summarized online by the National
> Archives website. So basically, this source cited by Douglas is
> simply an index pointing to the same lawsuit that he linked to
> upthread. Unless the editor identifies Elizabeth, widow of William
> Marwood & wife of Sir Philip Courtenay, as an Ayshford in a footnote
> (which is highly unlikely), it is not a source that provides her
> birth-family identity.
As I was going to the library anyway I checked this. The text in the 1903 version is identical to that in the online catalogue and there are no footnotes for that entry.
> view. However, all of these Chancery suits (pre-1558) - the C1 series
> in the National Archives - have been summarized online by the National
> Archives website. So basically, this source cited by Douglas is
> simply an index pointing to the same lawsuit that he linked to
> upthread. Unless the editor identifies Elizabeth, widow of William
> Marwood & wife of Sir Philip Courtenay, as an Ayshford in a footnote
> (which is highly unlikely), it is not a source that provides her
> birth-family identity.
> The final source is
> an article in The Bulletin of the Institute of Historical Research for
> title for the article. This source may - or may not - mention
> Elizabeth Ashford.
I skimmed through the print version, and there is very little mention of wives at all. I did not see any mention of Elizabeth.
Best wishes
Andrew
--
Andrew Millard - A.R.M...@durham.ac.uk
Bodimeade genealogy:�� http://community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/Bodimeade/
My family history:���� http://community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/
GenUKI Middx + London: http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/ + ../LND/
Brad Verity
Jul 22, 2013, 11:50:24 AM7/22/13
to
On Monday, July 22, 2013 6:15:14 AM UTC-7, MILLARD A.R. wrote:
> As I was going to the library anyway I checked this. The text in the 1903 version is identical to that in the online catalogue and there are no footnotes for that entry.
Thank you very much for checking these sources, Andrew - much appreciated. This List of Early Chancery Proceedings volume, in particular - you've saved me trying to track it down at the UBC Library in Vancouver, which if it holds it at all, it's in the Stacks, and revolves requesting it for view, etc.
> As I was going to the library anyway I checked this. The text in the 1903 version is identical to that in the online catalogue and there are no footnotes for that entry.
> I skimmed through the print version, and there is very little mention of wives at all. I did not see any mention of Elizabeth.
One of the only benefits of this tedious procedure which I call through 'sloshing thru Douglas's sources', is that it can lead to some I've never encountered before, such as this Courtenay article in BIHR. If nothing else, Douglas is an avid compiler of sources on these medieval noble & gentry families (whether or not he actually reads all of the sources he cites is another story).
As for poor Elizabeth 'Ayshford'. I get the image of her as a magician's assistant, surrounded by balloons, that we are steadily popping, one by one, like the magician with his old knife-throwing trick. I'm afraid we've now popped the final balloon, and she's standing there, trembling.
I don't know how Douglas came to identify her as a daughter of William Ayshford of Ayshford Court. Apparently it occurred as far back as 1999, in the 2nd edition of Plantagenet Ancestry, which he worked on for Dr. Faris. Maybe he saw it in a source he didn't bother citing. Maybe he ran his finger down the list of pedigrees in Vivian's Visitation of Devon, and stopped at Ayshford because the sound of the name appealed to him. I doubt we'll ever find out. At this point, we're asked to take this identification for her on faith, which I'm not inclined to do. It's a shame, as there are connections - the second marriage of Margaret Cotterall, widow of Sir Philip Courtenay's stepson Robert Hingeston, to William Ayshford, for example - that reinforce the possibility that Elizabeth Marwood Courtenay could have been from the Ayshford family. But as this Elizabeth does not appear in Ayshford pedigrees, nor on the extensively researched Ayshford website that I linked to upthread, I don't know how we can conscientiously continue with this affiliation for her.
Thanks again, Andrew, and Cheers, ------Brad
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Jul 22, 2013, 5:50:32 PM7/22/13
to
As you say, we will probably never find out how DR came to identify Elizabeth as an Ayshford - just as we will never find out how he has decided that Baldwin Marwood was a son of William Marwood and specifically by Elizabeth "Ayshford" rather than Elizabeth Squire. In the latter case at least, the motivation seems pretty clear - it provides a royal descent for the immigrant Edward Rossiter of Dorchester, which he can add to his various books (although the specifics of that descent beyond Baldwin Marwood have not yet been spelled out - and may also be questionable).
Brad Verity
Jul 25, 2013, 5:12:47 PM7/25/13
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On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 2:15:14 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> This is great - it confirms that Robert Hingeston (d. 1488) was Elizabeth's son, and that he was born about 1452/53. It also informs us that Elizabeth Wonwell Hingeston Courtenay has an IPM, which would probably help confirm her parentage. Unfortunately the Edward IV IPMs have not yet been published.
On my return from Vancouver last night after a busy last couple days, I found a wonderful gift in my Inbox from Dr. Matthew Tompkins - a transcription (& photograph) of the 1482 IPM for Elizabeth, wife of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland!! Here is the transcription:
"Inquisition taken at Exeter on the last day of October 22 EDw IV [1482] ... ...
the jurors say that a certain John Wonewill was late seised of a messuage, 300 acres of land, 20 acres of meadow and 6 acres of wood with appurtenances in Wonewill and 1 messuage and 1 ferling of land in Whittemore and ?100 [line 5] acres of land in Hokerigge in his demesne as of fee and thus seised by his charter, shown to the jurors, granted the said messuages, ferling, land, meadow and wood [6] to John Predeaux of Weston, John Eggecomb clerk, Henry Modicomb and Walter Warde, to have to them and their heirs forever, by virtue of which they [7] were seised in their demesne as of fee, and thus seised by their charter, shown to the jurors, they granted [8] them to the aforementioned John Wonewill, to have to him for the term of his life with remainder to William Hyndeston and the said Elizabeth, to have to them and the heirs issuing of the body of the said Elizabeth [9] forever, by virtue of which the said John was seised in his demesne as of free tenement, and afterwards the said John died, and the said William Hyndeston and Elizabeth entered the said lands and tenements and [10] were seised thereof, viz the said William Hyndeston in his demesne as of free tenement and the said Elizabeth in her demesne as of fee tail, and afterwards the said William died, and the said Elizabeth, still living, [11] was solely seised in her demesne as of fee tail, and thus seised by her [12] charter, shown to the jurors, granted them to John Snape, John Rous, Hugh Drake and Walter ?---, to have to them and their heirs forever, by virtue whereof they [13] were seised in their demesne as of fee, and thus seised, [14] by their charter, shown to the jury, granted the messuages, ferling, lands, meadow and wood in Wonewill [galled ... ... Probably: and Whittemore] to Phillip Courtenay and the said Elizabeth, to have for the term of their lives, remainder to [galled ... ..., probably: the heirs issuing of her/their bodies][15] and that all the lands and tenements in Hokerigge and Modicomb they granted to the said Elizabeth for the term of her life, remainder to [galled ... ...] [16] of which the same Phillip and Elizabeth were seised of all the lands and tenements in Wonewill and Whittemore in their demesne as of free tenement, and the said Elizabeth of all [galled ... ... Probably: the lands and tenements in Hokerigge and Modicomb in her demesne] [17] as of free tenement, and that the said Elizabeth died seised of such an estate, and that Phillip still lives. And they ... [state the values of the lands she died seised of ...]
She died on the last day of July last.
Robert Hyndeston is the son and next heir of both William Hyndeston and the said Elizabeth, and aged 30 years and more. END"
This is terrific confirmation that Elizabeth was the daughter & heiress of John Wonwell of Wonwell Court. Matt pointed out that unfortunately the IPM doesn't specifically state she was his daughter. But if Wonwell had simply sold his lands to William Hingeston and Elizabeth, it would have been recorded in the feet of fines for Devon, with acknowledgement that the Hingestons had paid Wonwell xx amount for the lands. William Hingeston actually purchased lands twice in this fashion. The following two fines are abstracts from Chris Phillips's Medieval English Genealogy website.
CP 25/1/46/88, number 245.
County: Devon.
Place: Westminster.
Date: One week from the Purification of the Blessed Mary, 28 Henry VI [9 February 1450]. And afterwards one week from Holy Trinity in the same year [7 June 1450].
Parties: William Hyndeston' and John Fitz, querents, and John Harry, esquire, deforciant.
Property: The manor of Radford' and 1 messuage and 40 acres of land in Plympstoke and Plymphome.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: John Harry has acknowledged the manor and tenements to be the right of William, as those which William and John Fitz have of his gift, and has remised and quitclaimed them from himself and his heirs to William and John Fitz and the heirs of William for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: William and John Fitz have given him 100 pounds sterling.
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_46_88.shtml
CP 25/1/46/89, number 268.
County: Devon.
Place: Westminster.
Date: One month from St Michael, 33 Henry VI [27 October 1454].
Parties: William Hyndeston' and John Harrys, querents, and Thomas Stone, deforciant.
Property: 1 toft and 3 ferlings of land in Ermyngton'.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Thomas has acknowledged the tenements to be the right of William, as those which William and John have of his gift, and has remised and quitclaimed them from himself and his heirs to William and John and the heirs of William for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: William and John have given him 100 marks of silver.
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_46_89.shtml
Also, John Wonwell has his feoffees grant the lands back to himself for life, with remainder to William & Elizabeth and HER heirs. This is strong indication that she was his daughter & heiress. If it had been a simple sale to attorney Hingeston & his wife, there would have been no need to specify her heirs - it would have been the heirs of both, or of William alone, as in the two fines above.
We know John Wonwell was alive & of full age in 1428, when he is recorded in the Feudal Aids in the hundred of Ermington (wherein lies Kingston parish and Wonwell Court). We also know Robert Hingeston, William & Elizabeth's son and heir, was born by 1452. William Hingeston & Elizabeth were likely married about 1450, then, so John Wonwell survived to that year at least, and his enfeoffment of his lands probably served as Elizabeth's portion at her marriage. Elizabeth's mother Jane was still alive in 1458 when William Hingeston made his will. Given this chronology, Elizabeth fits best as daughter of John Wonwell, as opposed to sister or granddaughter.
Though we lack 100% definitive proof (a statement of relationship in a 15th-century document), I do think it can be safely said that Elizabeth was born in the range 1430-35, daughter and heiress of John Wonwell of Wonwell Court (died in the range 1450-58) and his wife Jane. She married 1stly, about 1450, William Hingeston (born about 1410; died by 6 May 1458), M.P. Exeter 1442, Devon 1445-51, by whom she had at least one son and two daughters. She married 2ndly, about 1459, Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland (born about 1430; died 7 December 1489), and died 31 July 1482, having had further issue, three sons and two daughters.
I cannot thank Matt enough for his generosity in taking the time & making the effort to photograph & transcribe Elizabeth's IPM. Hopefully he will consider it his gift to the newborn Prince George of Cambridge, who through his father Prince William, apparently descends from Elizabeth Wonwell through each of her two husbands.
On Monday, July 22, 2013 2:50:32 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> As it happens, there is one source that does mention the two wives of William Marwood - but not as DR has identified them, and not cited by him in any of the editions of his works. Colby's edition of the 1564 visitation of Devon, in a pedigree of the Squire family, says that William Marwood married Anges (not Elizabeth) Squire and Elizabeth Asheton (not Ashford or Ayshford).
It says, strangely, both that Agnes Squire "d.s.p.", and that she had "Joan, d. & h. = Rob. Pollard". It does indicate that William Marwood of Westcott (d. 1520) was the son of William Marwood (d. 1482) by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth 'Asheton'.
http://ukga.org/cgi-bin/browse.cgi?action=ViewRec&DB=13&bookID=136&page=191&submit=Next
> And of course it doesn't mention a Courtenay marriage for Elizabeth, whatever her surname is - either in the Squire pedigree or in the Courtenay pedigree in the same volume.
Interesting. I wonder how accurate this Visitation is? The Courtenay (of Molland) pedigree, for example, says Philip Courtenay of Molland's wife was "Eliz., d. & h. of Hingeston", plus describes the Hingeston arms at the top of the pedigree: "3. HINGESTON. Azure, a demo-arm couped holding in his hand argent a halbert or", as if the Courtenays were heirs of the Hingestons, which they most certainly were not.
http://ukga.org/cgi-bin/browse.cgi?action=ViewRec&DB=13&bookID=136&page=72&submit=Submit
It also gives Philip Courtenay & Elizabeth 'Hingeston' a third daughter, "Anne = 1. Will. Paston. 2. ... Denshall", whom I've never encountered before and whop I don't believe appears at all in the Paston Letters.
Also, the Ayshford pedigree has the Hingestons completely jumbled up.
http://ukga.org/cgi-bin/browse.cgi?action=ViewRec&DB=13&bookID=136&page=6&submit=Next
This seems to be one of those Visitations in which the only generations that can be viewed with any degree of accuracy are those of the informant, the one immediately preceding, and any immediately following, him.
> As you say, we will probably never find out how DR came to identify Elizabeth as an Ayshford
If this 1564 Devon Visitation was his source, he should've cited it as such. And, even though no Ashetons appear in Devon in the 15th-century timeframe on immediate search, it's still quite a leap to go from 'Asheton' to 'Ashford', and specifically daughter of William Ashford.
> just as we will never find out how he has decided that Baldwin Marwood was a son of William Marwood and specifically by Elizabeth "Ayshford" rather than Elizabeth Squire. In the latter case at least, the motivation seems pretty clear - it provides a royal descent for the immigrant Edward Rossiter of Dorchester, which he can add to his various books (although the specifics of that descent beyond Baldwin Marwood have not yet been spelled out - and may also be questionable).
I'd like to determine the identity of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland's second wife. I've just entered into my database the ancestry of Sir John Chichester of Hall (1598-1669), husband of Ursula Strode (d. 1635).
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/chichester-john-1598-1669
Sir John is a descendant of Edward IV through his mother, but his paternal grandmother was Elizabeth Marwood (d. 1615), herself a great-granddaughter of William Marwood of Westcott (d. 1520) & Joan Courtenay. And I'd like to know for sure if William Marwood has an Edward I descent himself in addition to the one that his first wife Joan Courtenay has.
Thanks & Cheers, ------Brad
> This is great - it confirms that Robert Hingeston (d. 1488) was Elizabeth's son, and that he was born about 1452/53. It also informs us that Elizabeth Wonwell Hingeston Courtenay has an IPM, which would probably help confirm her parentage. Unfortunately the Edward IV IPMs have not yet been published.
On my return from Vancouver last night after a busy last couple days, I found a wonderful gift in my Inbox from Dr. Matthew Tompkins - a transcription (& photograph) of the 1482 IPM for Elizabeth, wife of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland!! Here is the transcription:
"Inquisition taken at Exeter on the last day of October 22 EDw IV [1482] ... ...
the jurors say that a certain John Wonewill was late seised of a messuage, 300 acres of land, 20 acres of meadow and 6 acres of wood with appurtenances in Wonewill and 1 messuage and 1 ferling of land in Whittemore and ?100 [line 5] acres of land in Hokerigge in his demesne as of fee and thus seised by his charter, shown to the jurors, granted the said messuages, ferling, land, meadow and wood [6] to John Predeaux of Weston, John Eggecomb clerk, Henry Modicomb and Walter Warde, to have to them and their heirs forever, by virtue of which they [7] were seised in their demesne as of fee, and thus seised by their charter, shown to the jurors, they granted [8] them to the aforementioned John Wonewill, to have to him for the term of his life with remainder to William Hyndeston and the said Elizabeth, to have to them and the heirs issuing of the body of the said Elizabeth [9] forever, by virtue of which the said John was seised in his demesne as of free tenement, and afterwards the said John died, and the said William Hyndeston and Elizabeth entered the said lands and tenements and [10] were seised thereof, viz the said William Hyndeston in his demesne as of free tenement and the said Elizabeth in her demesne as of fee tail, and afterwards the said William died, and the said Elizabeth, still living, [11] was solely seised in her demesne as of fee tail, and thus seised by her [12] charter, shown to the jurors, granted them to John Snape, John Rous, Hugh Drake and Walter ?---, to have to them and their heirs forever, by virtue whereof they [13] were seised in their demesne as of fee, and thus seised, [14] by their charter, shown to the jury, granted the messuages, ferling, lands, meadow and wood in Wonewill [galled ... ... Probably: and Whittemore] to Phillip Courtenay and the said Elizabeth, to have for the term of their lives, remainder to [galled ... ..., probably: the heirs issuing of her/their bodies][15] and that all the lands and tenements in Hokerigge and Modicomb they granted to the said Elizabeth for the term of her life, remainder to [galled ... ...] [16] of which the same Phillip and Elizabeth were seised of all the lands and tenements in Wonewill and Whittemore in their demesne as of free tenement, and the said Elizabeth of all [galled ... ... Probably: the lands and tenements in Hokerigge and Modicomb in her demesne] [17] as of free tenement, and that the said Elizabeth died seised of such an estate, and that Phillip still lives. And they ... [state the values of the lands she died seised of ...]
She died on the last day of July last.
Robert Hyndeston is the son and next heir of both William Hyndeston and the said Elizabeth, and aged 30 years and more. END"
This is terrific confirmation that Elizabeth was the daughter & heiress of John Wonwell of Wonwell Court. Matt pointed out that unfortunately the IPM doesn't specifically state she was his daughter. But if Wonwell had simply sold his lands to William Hingeston and Elizabeth, it would have been recorded in the feet of fines for Devon, with acknowledgement that the Hingestons had paid Wonwell xx amount for the lands. William Hingeston actually purchased lands twice in this fashion. The following two fines are abstracts from Chris Phillips's Medieval English Genealogy website.
CP 25/1/46/88, number 245.
County: Devon.
Place: Westminster.
Date: One week from the Purification of the Blessed Mary, 28 Henry VI [9 February 1450]. And afterwards one week from Holy Trinity in the same year [7 June 1450].
Parties: William Hyndeston' and John Fitz, querents, and John Harry, esquire, deforciant.
Property: The manor of Radford' and 1 messuage and 40 acres of land in Plympstoke and Plymphome.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: John Harry has acknowledged the manor and tenements to be the right of William, as those which William and John Fitz have of his gift, and has remised and quitclaimed them from himself and his heirs to William and John Fitz and the heirs of William for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: William and John Fitz have given him 100 pounds sterling.
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_46_88.shtml
CP 25/1/46/89, number 268.
County: Devon.
Place: Westminster.
Date: One month from St Michael, 33 Henry VI [27 October 1454].
Parties: William Hyndeston' and John Harrys, querents, and Thomas Stone, deforciant.
Property: 1 toft and 3 ferlings of land in Ermyngton'.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Thomas has acknowledged the tenements to be the right of William, as those which William and John have of his gift, and has remised and quitclaimed them from himself and his heirs to William and John and the heirs of William for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: William and John have given him 100 marks of silver.
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_46_89.shtml
Also, John Wonwell has his feoffees grant the lands back to himself for life, with remainder to William & Elizabeth and HER heirs. This is strong indication that she was his daughter & heiress. If it had been a simple sale to attorney Hingeston & his wife, there would have been no need to specify her heirs - it would have been the heirs of both, or of William alone, as in the two fines above.
We know John Wonwell was alive & of full age in 1428, when he is recorded in the Feudal Aids in the hundred of Ermington (wherein lies Kingston parish and Wonwell Court). We also know Robert Hingeston, William & Elizabeth's son and heir, was born by 1452. William Hingeston & Elizabeth were likely married about 1450, then, so John Wonwell survived to that year at least, and his enfeoffment of his lands probably served as Elizabeth's portion at her marriage. Elizabeth's mother Jane was still alive in 1458 when William Hingeston made his will. Given this chronology, Elizabeth fits best as daughter of John Wonwell, as opposed to sister or granddaughter.
Though we lack 100% definitive proof (a statement of relationship in a 15th-century document), I do think it can be safely said that Elizabeth was born in the range 1430-35, daughter and heiress of John Wonwell of Wonwell Court (died in the range 1450-58) and his wife Jane. She married 1stly, about 1450, William Hingeston (born about 1410; died by 6 May 1458), M.P. Exeter 1442, Devon 1445-51, by whom she had at least one son and two daughters. She married 2ndly, about 1459, Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland (born about 1430; died 7 December 1489), and died 31 July 1482, having had further issue, three sons and two daughters.
I cannot thank Matt enough for his generosity in taking the time & making the effort to photograph & transcribe Elizabeth's IPM. Hopefully he will consider it his gift to the newborn Prince George of Cambridge, who through his father Prince William, apparently descends from Elizabeth Wonwell through each of her two husbands.
On Monday, July 22, 2013 2:50:32 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> As it happens, there is one source that does mention the two wives of William Marwood - but not as DR has identified them, and not cited by him in any of the editions of his works. Colby's edition of the 1564 visitation of Devon, in a pedigree of the Squire family, says that William Marwood married Anges (not Elizabeth) Squire and Elizabeth Asheton (not Ashford or Ayshford).
http://ukga.org/cgi-bin/browse.cgi?action=ViewRec&DB=13&bookID=136&page=191&submit=Next
> And of course it doesn't mention a Courtenay marriage for Elizabeth, whatever her surname is - either in the Squire pedigree or in the Courtenay pedigree in the same volume.
http://ukga.org/cgi-bin/browse.cgi?action=ViewRec&DB=13&bookID=136&page=72&submit=Submit
It also gives Philip Courtenay & Elizabeth 'Hingeston' a third daughter, "Anne = 1. Will. Paston. 2. ... Denshall", whom I've never encountered before and whop I don't believe appears at all in the Paston Letters.
Also, the Ayshford pedigree has the Hingestons completely jumbled up.
http://ukga.org/cgi-bin/browse.cgi?action=ViewRec&DB=13&bookID=136&page=6&submit=Next
This seems to be one of those Visitations in which the only generations that can be viewed with any degree of accuracy are those of the informant, the one immediately preceding, and any immediately following, him.
> As you say, we will probably never find out how DR came to identify Elizabeth as an Ayshford
> just as we will never find out how he has decided that Baldwin Marwood was a son of William Marwood and specifically by Elizabeth "Ayshford" rather than Elizabeth Squire. In the latter case at least, the motivation seems pretty clear - it provides a royal descent for the immigrant Edward Rossiter of Dorchester, which he can add to his various books (although the specifics of that descent beyond Baldwin Marwood have not yet been spelled out - and may also be questionable).
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/chichester-john-1598-1669
Sir John is a descendant of Edward IV through his mother, but his paternal grandmother was Elizabeth Marwood (d. 1615), herself a great-granddaughter of William Marwood of Westcott (d. 1520) & Joan Courtenay. And I'd like to know for sure if William Marwood has an Edward I descent himself in addition to the one that his first wife Joan Courtenay has.
Thanks & Cheers, ------Brad
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Jul 25, 2013, 7:02:37 PM7/25/13
to
On Thursday, July 25, 2013 2:12:47 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
>
>
> On my return from Vancouver last night after a busy last couple days, I found a wonderful gift in my Inbox from Dr. Matthew Tompkins - a transcription (& photograph) of the 1482 IPM for Elizabeth, wife of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland!! Here is the transcription:
[snip]
>
>
> On my return from Vancouver last night after a busy last couple days, I found a wonderful gift in my Inbox from Dr. Matthew Tompkins - a transcription (& photograph) of the 1482 IPM for Elizabeth, wife of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland!! Here is the transcription:
> Though we lack 100% definitive proof (a statement of relationship in a 15th-century document), I do think it can be safely said that Elizabeth was born in the range 1430-35, daughter and heiress of John Wonwell of Wonwell Court (died in the range 1450-58) and his wife Jane. She married 1stly, about 1450, William Hingeston (born about 1410; died by 6 May 1458), M.P. Exeter 1442, Devon 1445-51, by whom she had at least one son and two daughters. She married 2ndly, about 1459, Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland (born about 1430; died 7 December 1489), and died 31 July 1482, having had further issue, three sons and two daughters.
>
>
>
> I cannot thank Matt enough for his generosity in taking the time & making the effort to photograph & transcribe Elizabeth's IPM. Hopefully he will consider it his gift to the newborn Prince George of Cambridge, who through his father Prince William, apparently descends from Elizabeth Wonwell through each of her two husbands.
>
> > As you say, we will probably never find out how DR came to identify Elizabeth as an Ayshford
>
>
>
> If this 1564 Devon Visitation was his source, he should've cited it as such. And, even though no Ashetons appear in Devon in the 15th-century timeframe on immediate search, it's still quite a leap to go from 'Asheton' to 'Ashford', and specifically daughter of William Ashford.
>
>
>
> > just as we will never find out how he has decided that Baldwin Marwood was a son of William Marwood and specifically by Elizabeth "Ayshford" rather than Elizabeth Squire. In the latter case at least, the motivation seems pretty clear - it provides a royal descent for the immigrant Edward Rossiter of Dorchester, which he can add to his various books (although the specifics of that descent beyond Baldwin Marwood have not yet been spelled out - and may also be questionable).
>
>
>
> I'd like to determine the identity of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland's second wife. I've just entered into my database the ancestry of Sir John Chichester of Hall (1598-1669), husband of Ursula Strode (d. 1635).
>
> http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/chichester-john-1598-1669
>
>
>
> Sir John is a descendant of Edward IV through his mother, but his paternal grandmother was Elizabeth Marwood (d. 1615), herself a great-granddaughter of William Marwood of Westcott (d. 1520) & Joan Courtenay. And I'd like to know for sure if William Marwood has an Edward I descent himself in addition to the one that his first wife Joan Courtenay has.
>
>
>
> Thanks & Cheers, ------Brad
Thanks, Brad (and Matt Tompkins) for this information on the 1482 IPM of Elizabeth Wonwell, wife of William Hingeston and Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland. This is certainly useful.
>
>
>
> If this 1564 Devon Visitation was his source, he should've cited it as such. And, even though no Ashetons appear in Devon in the 15th-century timeframe on immediate search, it's still quite a leap to go from 'Asheton' to 'Ashford', and specifically daughter of William Ashford.
>
>
>
> > just as we will never find out how he has decided that Baldwin Marwood was a son of William Marwood and specifically by Elizabeth "Ayshford" rather than Elizabeth Squire. In the latter case at least, the motivation seems pretty clear - it provides a royal descent for the immigrant Edward Rossiter of Dorchester, which he can add to his various books (although the specifics of that descent beyond Baldwin Marwood have not yet been spelled out - and may also be questionable).
>
>
>
> I'd like to determine the identity of Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland's second wife. I've just entered into my database the ancestry of Sir John Chichester of Hall (1598-1669), husband of Ursula Strode (d. 1635).
>
> http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/chichester-john-1598-1669
>
>
>
> Sir John is a descendant of Edward IV through his mother, but his paternal grandmother was Elizabeth Marwood (d. 1615), herself a great-granddaughter of William Marwood of Westcott (d. 1520) & Joan Courtenay. And I'd like to know for sure if William Marwood has an Edward I descent himself in addition to the one that his first wife Joan Courtenay has.
>
>
>
> Thanks & Cheers, ------Brad
I agree with your comments about the 1564 visitation of Devon. It's definitely a source to be used with considerable caution, if at all. I mentioned it solely because it appears to be the only source we've seen so far that gives a surname (right or wrong) to Elizabeth the 2nd wife of William Marwood the elder.
With respect to the possible Edward I descent of William Marwood the younger (who married Joan Courtenay), it must be the same descent that's been asserted (but not proven) for Baldwin Marwood, who in turn has been asserted but not proven to be an ancestor of the immigrant Edward Rossiter of Dorchester, MA. If I'm summarizing the discussion in this thread correctly, I think this is the descent in question, go to Edward Rossiter:
Edward I, King of England; m. (1) Eleanor of Castile
Elizabeth of England; m. Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl of Hereford and 9th Earl of Essex
Margaret de Bohun; m. Sir Hugh de Courtenay, KG, 2nd Earl of Devon
Sir Philip Courtenay of Powderham; m. Anne Wake
Margaret Courtenay; m. Sir Robert Cary of Cockington
Joan Cary of Cockington; m. William Ayshford [or Ashford] of Ashford
******
Elizabeth Ayshford [or Ashford]; m. (1) (his 2nd) William Marwood of Westcott
******
Baldwin Marwood; m. Joan NN
******
unnamed daughter; m. (1) Philip Rossiter of Combe St. Nicholas
Nicholas Rossiter; m. Elizabeth NN
Edward Rossiter, immigrant, of Dorchester, MA
The stars indicate the links in the descent which appear to be insufficiently supported at present - and could probably be best characterized as guesses. If anyone has better information on these three links, I'd be happy to hear it.
taf
Jul 25, 2013, 7:42:21 PM7/25/13
to GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
On Thursday, July 25, 2013 4:02:37 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> I agree with your comments about the 1564 visitation of Devon. It's
definitely a source to be used with considerable caution, if at all.
I will weigh in on this as well. I am working on a Devon family and find
>
> I agree with your comments about the 1564 visitation of Devon. It's
definitely a source to be used with considerable caution, if at all.
the 1564 visitation so dubious (as published) that it only gets in the way
of achieving an understanding of the actual relationships involved, even
with the generations immediately proximate to the time of the visitation.
The published 1620 visitation is better for relationships in 1500 than is
1564. (I would love to see 1531 published!)
taf
al...@mindspring.com
Jul 26, 2013, 6:32:46 AM7/26/13
to
The 1482 IPM for William Marwood might go a long way to answering some of these questions.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith
al...@mindspring.com
Jul 26, 2013, 5:33:34 PM7/26/13
to
Brad
as far as this part goes:
"It also gives Philip Courtenay & Elizabeth 'Hingeston' a third daughter, "Anne = 1. Will. Paston. 2. ... Denshall", whom I've never encountered before and whop I don't believe appears at all in the Paston Letters.:
I think if you look at the following sources:
The Visitation of the County of Devon, 1564, ed. Frederic Thomas Colby, Exeter, (1881), p 72. Collections for a parochial history of Chew Magna, Chew Magna, 1903, pps 11.
That it was William Palton d. 1449 not Paston being referred to. I believe his father was the Willima Palton who was a MP.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith
as far as this part goes:
"It also gives Philip Courtenay & Elizabeth 'Hingeston' a third daughter, "Anne = 1. Will. Paston. 2. ... Denshall", whom I've never encountered before and whop I don't believe appears at all in the Paston Letters.:
I think if you look at the following sources:
The Visitation of the County of Devon, 1564, ed. Frederic Thomas Colby, Exeter, (1881), p 72. Collections for a parochial history of Chew Magna, Chew Magna, 1903, pps 11.
That it was William Palton d. 1449 not Paston being referred to. I believe his father was the Willima Palton who was a MP.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith
al...@mindspring.com
Jul 26, 2013, 6:15:06 PM7/26/13
to
Parishes: Nether Wallop', A History of the County of Hampshire: Volume 4 (1911), pp. 525-530. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56873 Date accessed: 26 July 2013. ‘Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other Analogous Documents preserved in the Public Record Office’, Vol. XX, 1-5 Henry V (1413-1418), edited by J. L. Kirby, published by Her Majesty’s Stationery Office, London, pp. 38-39. The Environs of London: Being an Historical Account of the ..., Volume 1, Part 2, p 191. An Historical Survey of the County of Cornwall: to Which Is Added a Complete Heraldry of the Same (1817-1820), Gilbert, C. S., (2 volumes in 3. Plymouth: J. Congdon, 1817-1820), FHL book 942.37 H2g., vol. 1 p. 501. A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland Enjoying Territorial Possessions or High Official Rank but Uninvested with Heritable Honours (1834-1838; reprint 1977), Burke, John, (1834-1838. Reprint, Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing, 1977), 942 D2bc 1977; FHL microfiche 6035997-035999; FHL ., vol. 2 p. 162. Collins's Peerage of England, Genealogical, Biographical, and Historical, Greatly Augmented, and Continued to the Present Time (1812), Brydges, Sir Egerton,, (9 volumes. London: [T. Bensley], 1812), FHL book 942 D22be., vol. 6 p. 262. John Smith Roskell, The Commons in the Parliament of 1422: English Society and Parliamentary ..., pps 207-208.
There was apparently one William Palton married to Elizabeth Wroth and then Anne Courtenay. He was a knight of the shire.
Doug Smith
al...@mindspring.com
Jul 26, 2013, 6:31:36 PM7/26/13
to
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Jul 26, 2013, 8:20:20 PM7/26/13
to
The best source on Sir William Palton the MP seems to be the Roskell work noted above (which is not his volume in the HOP series). It is available in preview mode (at least for some of us) here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=TxYNAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA208#v=onepage&q&f=false
According to this source it was this Sir William Palton who married (1) Elizabeth Wroth and (2) Anne Courtenay. If so, however, Anne Courtenay was likely much younger than her husband, based on her placement in the Courtenay family pedigrees.
According to Collinson's Somertset, 2:152, and supported by the notes in Wood's Chew Magna (cited earlier here), there were two William Paltons in succession: one who was living 1404/5 and his son (also William) who died 1449/50. One or the other (not clear which) was living in 1444, when he arranged for the inheritance of his manor of Camelerton [or Camerton]. I wonder if it might be possible that the Coourtenay marriage should be assigned instead to the 2nd William.
To further complicate matters, when the younger William d. in 1449/50 his heirs were found to be his cousins Joan, wife of John Kelly, and Agnes, wife of Nicholas St. Loe. These two ladies were identified in the 1444 transaction mentioned above as sisters and Agnes was said in that transaction to be daughter of a William de Palton - presumably not either of the William Paltons mentioned above.
This is all very sketchy for me at present, and it could well have been confused by earlier writers due to the multiple William Paltons. If we can straighten this out, it will add to the ancestry of the newborn Prince George of Cambridge, as Agnes Palton and Nicholas St. Loe are ancestors of Prince Charles.
karen sims
Jul 27, 2013, 1:20:11 AM7/27/13
to GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
I spent some time with this the heirs of the younger Palton, and this the
way I've worked out part of the Palton/Kelley relationship
The younger William Palton married as her second husband Alice Beaumont.
Alice had a daughter Magrereta FitzPayn by her first husband John FitzPayn,
son of Thomas FitzPayne, son or brother of the John FitzPayne who married
Eleanor Coplestone Margareta married John Austell. John Austell and
Margarita's daughter Joan married John Kelley. John Kelly had two sons,
Thomas and William. Thomas's daughter Edith died without issue. William
Kelley's daughter Margery married 1) John Carew, 2) James Tyrrell of
Columbine Hall.. William Kelley's other daughter Alice, married Michael
Kelley.
An alternate descent given in Notes and queries for Somerset and Dorset Vol
7 makes Margereta the daughter of Elias FitzPayne, son of John Fitzpayn and
Eleanor Coplestone. A lot of supporting material is included,
unfortunately much of it is in Latin. Article starts on page 69 and
continues on page 103.
http://books.google.com/books?id=TMQxAQAAIAAJ&
I have not figured out the FitzPayn descent to the St Loe's.
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
way I've worked out part of the Palton/Kelley relationship
The younger William Palton married as her second husband Alice Beaumont.
Alice had a daughter Magrereta FitzPayn by her first husband John FitzPayn,
son of Thomas FitzPayne, son or brother of the John FitzPayne who married
Eleanor Coplestone Margareta married John Austell. John Austell and
Margarita's daughter Joan married John Kelley. John Kelly had two sons,
Thomas and William. Thomas's daughter Edith died without issue. William
Kelley's daughter Margery married 1) John Carew, 2) James Tyrrell of
Columbine Hall.. William Kelley's other daughter Alice, married Michael
Kelley.
An alternate descent given in Notes and queries for Somerset and Dorset Vol
7 makes Margereta the daughter of Elias FitzPayne, son of John Fitzpayn and
Eleanor Coplestone. A lot of supporting material is included,
unfortunately much of it is in Latin. Article starts on page 69 and
continues on page 103.
http://books.google.com/books?id=TMQxAQAAIAAJ&
I have not figured out the FitzPayn descent to the St Loe's.
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
al...@mindspring.com
Jul 27, 2013, 8:58:10 AM7/27/13
to
The following appears to make this somewhat clearer, if a bit different:
1430-42 Reference: DD/TB/34/5/1-8 Creation dates: 1430-1442
Extent and Form: 8 docs. Scope and Content Grant by John, son of Thomas
Fitzpayne to John Copleston and others of the Manors of East and West
Stoodleigh, Hetherlond, Cove, Mere, Combe and Cheriton Fitzpayne 1430,
transfer of the Manors of West Stoodleigh and the advowson, East Stoodleigh,
Mere, Cove and Combe in Devon and Alhampton in Somerset to John Austell and
Margaret his wife 1443 and quitclaim by Stephen Austell, clerk, to John of
the Manors of Cheriton Fitzpayne and the advowson in Devon and Churchill,
Fitzpayne Cary alias Lytescary and Pekerellston with lands in Axbridge,
Banwell, Wells and Sitecote (?Sidcote) in Somerset 1452 [John Austell's
daughter Joan married John Kelly].
1509 Reference: DD/TB/36/14 Creation dates: 1509Extent and Form: 1 doc.
Scope and Content William Kelly of Southwick John, Earl of Essex and
othersGrant of all lands in East and West Stoodleigh, Heytherland, Cove,
Mere, Combe and Cheriton Fitzpayne in Devon and the Manors of Alhampton
iuxta Ditcheat and Camerton in Somerset, which were the lands of Edith,
first wife of Humphrey Calwoodleigh whose daughter Joan married William's
father John Kelly, in trust for William with reversion to his daughters
Margery wife of John Carew and Alice wife of Michael Kelly.
1500-1515 William, son of John, brother of Thomas Kelly, father of Edith,
late the wife of Humfrey Calwodelegh. v. Humfrey Calwodelegh: The manors of
Weststodelegh, Eststodelegh, Cove, and Estmer.: [Devon]. 1500-1515
1518 Reference: DD/TB/36/15 Creation dates: 1518 Extent and Form: 1 doc.
Scope and Content Humphrey Calwoodleigh Richard Coryton and Alice his wife
and John Carew and Margery his wife, daughters of William Kelly. Bond to
keep the judgement made by Richard Elyot and Lewis Pollard, two of the
King's Justices, concerning lands as in DD/TB/36/13
1518-29 John Carewe and Margery, his wife, and Richard Coryton, and
Alice, his wife. v. Humphrey, son of Thomas Callwoodlegh.: Detention of
deeds and refusal to convey the manor of A[la]mpton, whereof defendant is
but tenant for life in right of his deceased wife Edith, granddaughter of
Joan, late the wife of John Kelley, grandmother also of the said Margery and
Alice. 1518-1529
1532-38 Oliver Kelly, gentleman, son of Alice Coryton, deceased.: Petition
to inquire as to an entail by the said Alice of the manors of South Week,
Holsworthy, and Riston.: Somerset, Devon, Cornwall. 1532-1538
1532-38 John Harris and Elizabeth, his wife. v. William Kelly, esquire,
brother of the said Elizabeth, and Alice Coryton.: Detention of deeds
relating to a messuage and land in Germansweek, and instigating excessive
claims to service by the bailiffs of the priorof Frithelstock. Devon
Doug Smith
1430-42 Reference: DD/TB/34/5/1-8 Creation dates: 1430-1442
Extent and Form: 8 docs. Scope and Content Grant by John, son of Thomas
Fitzpayne to John Copleston and others of the Manors of East and West
Stoodleigh, Hetherlond, Cove, Mere, Combe and Cheriton Fitzpayne 1430,
transfer of the Manors of West Stoodleigh and the advowson, East Stoodleigh,
Mere, Cove and Combe in Devon and Alhampton in Somerset to John Austell and
Margaret his wife 1443 and quitclaim by Stephen Austell, clerk, to John of
the Manors of Cheriton Fitzpayne and the advowson in Devon and Churchill,
Fitzpayne Cary alias Lytescary and Pekerellston with lands in Axbridge,
Banwell, Wells and Sitecote (?Sidcote) in Somerset 1452 [John Austell's
daughter Joan married John Kelly].
1509 Reference: DD/TB/36/14 Creation dates: 1509Extent and Form: 1 doc.
Scope and Content William Kelly of Southwick John, Earl of Essex and
othersGrant of all lands in East and West Stoodleigh, Heytherland, Cove,
Mere, Combe and Cheriton Fitzpayne in Devon and the Manors of Alhampton
iuxta Ditcheat and Camerton in Somerset, which were the lands of Edith,
first wife of Humphrey Calwoodleigh whose daughter Joan married William's
father John Kelly, in trust for William with reversion to his daughters
Margery wife of John Carew and Alice wife of Michael Kelly.
1500-1515 William, son of John, brother of Thomas Kelly, father of Edith,
late the wife of Humfrey Calwodelegh. v. Humfrey Calwodelegh: The manors of
Weststodelegh, Eststodelegh, Cove, and Estmer.: [Devon]. 1500-1515
1518 Reference: DD/TB/36/15 Creation dates: 1518 Extent and Form: 1 doc.
Scope and Content Humphrey Calwoodleigh Richard Coryton and Alice his wife
and John Carew and Margery his wife, daughters of William Kelly. Bond to
keep the judgement made by Richard Elyot and Lewis Pollard, two of the
King's Justices, concerning lands as in DD/TB/36/13
1518-29 John Carewe and Margery, his wife, and Richard Coryton, and
Alice, his wife. v. Humphrey, son of Thomas Callwoodlegh.: Detention of
deeds and refusal to convey the manor of A[la]mpton, whereof defendant is
but tenant for life in right of his deceased wife Edith, granddaughter of
Joan, late the wife of John Kelley, grandmother also of the said Margery and
Alice. 1518-1529
1532-38 Oliver Kelly, gentleman, son of Alice Coryton, deceased.: Petition
to inquire as to an entail by the said Alice of the manors of South Week,
Holsworthy, and Riston.: Somerset, Devon, Cornwall. 1532-1538
1532-38 John Harris and Elizabeth, his wife. v. William Kelly, esquire,
brother of the said Elizabeth, and Alice Coryton.: Detention of deeds
relating to a messuage and land in Germansweek, and instigating excessive
claims to service by the bailiffs of the priorof Frithelstock. Devon
Doug Smith
al...@mindspring.com
Jul 27, 2013, 11:08:23 AM7/27/13
to
Also:
Somerset Record Society, Volume 22, 1906, p 196 at http://books.google.com/books?id=2w0RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=John+Fitzpayn+alice+Beaumont&source=bl&ots=W_x_jhFZPT&sig=Rzs5KnLy5EVDPnVHL9hHRS_czrE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kOHzUfPwMMzE4APEnIC4CA&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=John%20Fitzpayn%20alice%20Beaumont&f=false.
Doug Smith
Somerset Record Society, Volume 22, 1906, p 196 at http://books.google.com/books?id=2w0RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=John+Fitzpayn+alice+Beaumont&source=bl&ots=W_x_jhFZPT&sig=Rzs5KnLy5EVDPnVHL9hHRS_czrE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kOHzUfPwMMzE4APEnIC4CA&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=John%20Fitzpayn%20alice%20Beaumont&f=false.
Doug Smith
al...@mindspring.com
Jul 27, 2013, 4:36:56 PM7/27/13
to
1441/2
255 At Westminster in the morrow of St Martin between John Fortescu Walter Rodeney esquire John Tretheke esquire William Stevenes chaplain and Stephen Austell chaplain querents and John Austell esquire and Margaret his wife deforciants for the manors of Chirchehill Fitzpaynescary alias Litelcary Poker elleston and Camerelton and for eight messuages thirty nine acres of land three acres of meadow four acres of pasture one acre of wood and four acres marsh in Axbrigge Sytecote Bane well and Welles and the advowson of the church of Camerelton and lands in Devon John Austell and Margaret acknowledged the right of John Tretheke of which he had the manors of Chirchehill and Fitzpaynescary by their gift and they quit claimed for themselves and the heirs of Margaret and besides they granted that the manor of Pokerelleston which Alice Beaumont who was wife of John Fitzpayn held for life and that the manor of Camerelton and the advowson which William Palton knight held for life the heritage of Margaret shall after the death of the life tenants remain to John Tretheke and his heirs for this John Tretheke gave them one thousand marcs of silver.
It would appear that Alice Beaumont married John FitzPayn and then Sir William Palton.
The William Palton who married Anne Courtenay might have been his grandson given the chronology.
Finding the identity of this Alice Beaumont may unravel some of this puzzle. Some of the lands appear to be Talbot lands or near Talbot lands.
Doug Smith
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Jul 27, 2013, 8:07:32 PM7/27/13
to
On Friday, July 26, 2013 10:20:11 PM UTC-7, karen sims wrote:
> I spent some time with this the heirs of the younger Palton, and this the
>
> way I've worked out part of the Palton/Kelley relationship
>
>
>
> The younger William Palton married as her second husband Alice Beaumont.
>
> Alice had a daughter Magrereta FitzPayn by her first husband John FitzPayn,
>
> son of Thomas FitzPayne, son or brother of the John FitzPayne who married
>
> Eleanor Coplestone Margareta married John Austell. John Austell and
>
> Margarita's daughter Joan married John Kelley. John Kelly had two sons,
>
> Thomas and William. Thomas's daughter Edith died without issue. William
>
> Kelley's daughter Margery married 1) John Carew, 2) James Tyrrell of
>
> Columbine Hall.. William Kelley's other daughter Alice, married Michael
>
> Kelley.
>
>
>
> An alternate descent given in Notes and queries for Somerset and Dorset Vol
>
> 7 makes Margereta the daughter of Elias FitzPayne, son of John Fitzpayn and
>
> Eleanor Coplestone. A lot of supporting material is included,
>
> unfortunately much of it is in Latin. Article starts on page 69 and
>
> continues on page 103.
>
>
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=TMQxAQAAIAAJ&
>
>
>
>
>
> I have not figured out the FitzPayn descent to the St Loe's.
>
>
Thanks, Karen, for this useful information, and also to Doug Smith for his separate posts. The material in vol. 7 of SDNQ is particularly helpful – although, as Karen notes, the author reaches conflicting conclusions in some cases.
> I spent some time with this the heirs of the younger Palton, and this the
>
> way I've worked out part of the Palton/Kelley relationship
>
>
>
> The younger William Palton married as her second husband Alice Beaumont.
>
> Alice had a daughter Magrereta FitzPayn by her first husband John FitzPayn,
>
> son of Thomas FitzPayne, son or brother of the John FitzPayne who married
>
> Eleanor Coplestone Margareta married John Austell. John Austell and
>
> Margarita's daughter Joan married John Kelley. John Kelly had two sons,
>
> Thomas and William. Thomas's daughter Edith died without issue. William
>
> Kelley's daughter Margery married 1) John Carew, 2) James Tyrrell of
>
> Columbine Hall.. William Kelley's other daughter Alice, married Michael
>
> Kelley.
>
>
>
> An alternate descent given in Notes and queries for Somerset and Dorset Vol
>
> 7 makes Margereta the daughter of Elias FitzPayne, son of John Fitzpayn and
>
> Eleanor Coplestone. A lot of supporting material is included,
>
> unfortunately much of it is in Latin. Article starts on page 69 and
>
> continues on page 103.
>
>
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=TMQxAQAAIAAJ&
>
>
>
>
>
> I have not figured out the FitzPayn descent to the St Loe's.
>
>
With respect to the Palton connection, the SDNQ volume (at pp. 104-5) contains the Latin transcription of the transaction I mentioned earlier, in which (on 6 March 1444 [22 Henry VI]), William Palton specified the heirs of his property of Camerlerton. My earlier comments were based on Wood’s reading of this transaction as presented in his “Chew Magna” , but I now think that Wood misread the document. Per Collinson’s Somerset (and Wood, albeit garbled), William Palton’s heirs when he died in 1449/50 (28 Henry VI) were his “cousins” Joan the wife of John Kelly and Agnes the wife of Nicholas St. Loe. Wood said that Joan and Agnes could not be sisters because he thought that Joan was the daughter of Elias Fitzpayn and Agnes was the daughter of a William Palton. But the 1444 document explicitly states that Joan and Agnes were sisters and the context makes it clear that they were both daughters of John Austell and Margaret Fitzpayn. The daughter Agnes is not noted in the pedigree on page 70 of the SDNQ article.
In discussing the 1444 transaction, Wood says that Margaret Fitzpayn was the daughter of Elias Fitzpayn. But the document of the 1444 transaction says nothing of her parentage, which seems very confused in the SDNQ article. Karen’s note says she was daughter (by Alice Beaumont) of John Fitzpayn , who was son of Thomas Fitzpayn, who was son or brother of the John Fitzpayn who married Eleanor Coplestone. The pedigree on p. 70 of the SDNQ article says that Margaret was the daughter of Elias Fitzpayn but gives no support for this. But on the preceding page Margaret is said to be the daughter of Thomas, who was son or brother of Elias (not John who married Eleanor Copleston). All very confusing – can anyone shed any light on this?
With respect to Alice Beaumont, I wonder if she was in fact a Beaumont by birth, or just by marriage. Another document in the SDNQ article, at p. 105, refers to her as “Alicia uxor Tho. Beaumont, quae nuper fuit uxor Joh’is Fitzpayne”, which I translate as “Alice the wife of Thomas Beaumont and now the wife of John Fitzpayn”. There was a Sir Thomas Beaumont of Youlston, Devon, who married Alice, daughter of Henry Stukeley, but that Thomas Beaumont died in 1450 and doesn’t seem to fit well chronologically into this picture. More mysteries….
al...@mindspring.com
Jul 28, 2013, 11:28:27 AM7/28/13
to
I agree she was prob not a Beaumont by birth.
These are very helpful with the Fitzpayns:
Somerset Archive and Record Service
You are here Documents relating mainly to the Lyte family of Lytes Cary, Charlton Mackrell
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/27 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.24 [Chronological catalogue of deeds at Lytes Cary begins here]
Deeds without date (6)
1. Release, John Adame of Tucks Cary to Peter le Lyt.
2. Grant of land in Cary, Richard de Catymore to Hy. de Cary, son of 'Gurmund', witnessed by Sir Hugh de Lite
3. Grant of lands from Gilbert of Limington to Pierce of Draycott.
4. Grant of lands from Wm. Lord of Middleton to Peter of Draycott.
5. A deed re. 'Cary Cadmore' witnessed by Wm. de Lyt.
6. Grant of lands in Tucks Cary from Adam de Carye to son John, witnessed by Wm. de Lyt.
Henry III (1)
1. Deed re. land called le Gore in Tuckers Cary, witnessed by William de Lut'
Edward I (6)
1. Grant of lands in Middleton, Perce of Draycott to Robt., s. and h. of Wm. de Lyt, and Isabell his wife, dau. of the donor, in frank marriage. 2 Ed. I.
2. Grant of lands in 'Evellton', same parties and date.
3. Grant of lands in Middleton, same parties and date.
4. Grant of lands in Tuckers Cary from Adam de Cary to Roger Fitzpayne near to land of Marjory de Lyt, witnessed by Wm. de Lyt. 14 Ed. I. - 1286.
5. Grant of further lands in Tuckers Cary, same parties and date.
6. Grant of lands in Middleton, Robt., son of Wm. de Middleton to Pierce of Draycott. 21 Ed. I.
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/28 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.25 Edward III (16)
1. Grant of land in 'Marche', John de Yevale to John Fakner, w.Marjorye and s.John, 3 Ed.III.
2. Deed of lands in Lytes Cary, Sir Elias Pitzpayne to Stephen de la Hay, witnessed by Peter de 'Elyt', 7 Ed.III.
3. Grant of lands in Kingsdon, Sir Bryan, son of Sir Bryan de Govyer to Richerd Betevile and wife, witnessed by Peter le Lyte. 13 Ed.III.
4. Release, John, son of Pierce of Draycot to Peter le Lyte, 14 Ed.III.
5. Lands in manor of Tucks Cary, grant from Wm.de Cary, s.of Adam de Gary to Thos., his son, witnessed by Peter de Lyt, 17 Ed.III.
6. Lands in Middleton, grant from Peter le Lyt to Hugh Jenkings, 22 Ed.III.
7. Grant of lands in South Cary by Jo.Fitzpayne, 32 Ed.III.
8. Grant of lands in South Cary to 'Eliaz' Fitzpayne and wife Marjory, 33 Ed.III.
9. Grant of lands in Lytes Cary, Nicholas de Somerton to 'Elis' Fitzpayne, Lord of Lytescary, 33 Ed.III.
10. Letter of attorney to give seisin, re.previous item.
11. Grant of land in South Cary from 'some religious persons' to Elias Fitzpayne and wife Marjorye, 33 Ed.III.
12. Grant from Thos. son of John de Cary to Elias Fitzpayne, 40 Ed.III.
13. Grant from Peter de Gevellton to John Loveprice, 36 Ed.III.
14. Grant of land in Tucks Cary and Charlton Mackrell to Elias Fitzpayne, 38 Ed.III.
15. Grant of land in Lytes Cary and Charlton Mackrell from Thos., s.of John de Cary, to Sir Rich.Acton, 39 Ed.III.
16. Release of lands in Tucks Cary, Charlton Adam and Charlton Mackrell, Wm.,s.of John de Cary to Elias Fitzpayne, 39 Ed.III.
[In margin] Letter of attorney of John Horsey of Charlton Mackrell, 10 Ed.III, by which 'doth appear the antiquity of the Horseys to Charlton'.
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/29 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.26 Richard II (12)
1. Feoffment of lands in Lytes Cary, Edmund Lyte to Wm. Carrant and others, 2 R.II.
2. Re-grant of same premises to Edmund Lyte, wife Thomasyn, and his heirs, 3 R.II.
3. Release of all trusts between some parties, 3 R.II.
4. Memo made by Edm.Lyte of 'ancient evidences' destroyed by fire at his house at Yeovil Marsh, concerning lands near Ipswich in Norfolk which he ought to have inherited from his grandmother; the antiquity of the deeds appeared by the 'olde englishe and maner of writinge'. The fire happened in 6 R.II.
5. Release of all trusts, lands in Lytes Cary, Milton, 'Evellton' and Draycott, parties and date as item 3.
6. Grant of 6a. of land in Netherham, Edm.Lyte to Roger Stoke and wife for their lives, at 5s.10½ rent, 4 R.II.
7. Release from Edm., son of Peter Lyte, to Ellis, son of Sir John Fitzpayne, concerning a cottage in Tucker's Cary, 4 R.II.
8. Grant of all lands and tenements in Lytes Cary from Edm. Lyte to Thos.Moone, clerk, paying a rose yearly for 6 yrs., then £40 yearly, 4 R.II.
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/30 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.27 9. Grant of all lands in Lytes Cary, Elis, son of Sir John Fitzpayne to Sir John Thorp and others: in French, 5 R.II.
10. Lands and tenement in Netherham lately held by John Browninge to Wm., son of Robert Stake and his wife, 6 R.II.
11. Release of rent from, and reversion of tenement in Podimore Milton, also release of an annuity from Thos. 'Ralage' to Edm.Lyte, conditional upon payment of 10 marks within 4 yrs. Also cntrpt., 6 R.II.
12. Marr.settlement of Roger 'Raleighe' and Lucy, dau.of Edm. Lyte; dowry, £10 paid in 4 instalments and meat, drink, apparel and 'horsemeat' for 2 yrs. In French; also cntrpt., 5 R.II.
Henry IV (12)
1. Land and share of meadow in High Ham. grant from Edm.Lyte and John his son to John Dynt, wife Joane and 2 sons, also grant of rent from, and reversion of, mess. after death of Peter Stronby. Rents, 30s.6d. and 2s.respectively, 2 Hen.IV.
2. Letter of attorney to deliver seisin of lands in Brixham English (co.Devon) to John, son of Edm.Lyte, 6 Hen.IV
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/31 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.28. 3. Grant of land in Brixham English, Edm.Lyte to son John, at rent of 1d. yearly during life of Agnes, wife of grantor (formerly wid. of John Ashe) and subsequently 4 marks, 6 Hen.IV.
4. Grant of annuity of 4 marks, Margery, wid. of Elias Fitzpayne, to John Dennis, for term of 6 yrs., 6 Hen.IV.
5. Grant of authority to mortgage manor of Lytes Cary for 6 yrs. by Margaret, wid.of Elias Fitzpayne to Sir Thos., her son, to raise marriage position for Margaret her dau., 6 Hen.IV.
6. Letters of attorney from John Horsey and others to deliver seisin of manor of 'Pokereweston' to Eleanor, sometime wife of Sir John Fitzpayne, 7 Hen.IV.
7. Manor of Lytes Cary: conveyance from David Swynmon and wife Margaret to John Podemore and Margaret, dau. of Margaret Swynmon, for life of first Margaret, reserving rent during their lives and re-entry if Margaret junr. should die before her mother, 8 Hen.IV.
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/32 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.29 8. Letters of attorney to deliver seisin to Margaret, wife of John Podemore(sister to Thos.Fitzpayne) 8 Hen.IV [i.e., it appears that Margaret, wid.of Elias Fitzpayne, married David Swynmon and retained a life interest in the manor of Lytes Cary].
9. Grant of tenement called 'Lytescourts' from Edm.Lyte to Robt. Soth, chaplain, 9 Hen.IV.
10. Grant in reversion of mess. and tenement in Nether Ham to Rich. and John, sons of Wm.Appolyn, for life; rent 9s.6½d., 11 Hen.IV.
11. Grant in reversion of another mess. and tenement in Nether Ham to Wm.Appolyn, Agnes his wife, and Rich. and John their sons, for life; rent 2s.; even date with above.
Henry V. (13)
1. Lease of land and meadow in Lytes Cary formerly held by John Sheppard, from John 'Chichlye' to John 'Plushe', Christian his wife and Thos. their son, 2 Hen.V.
2. Lease of all lands in Podimore Milton, Edm.Lyte of Lytes Cary to Adam Burnell of Glastonbury, clerk, and Elizabeth his wife, dau.of Edmund Lyte; also cntpt., 3 Hen.V.
3. Grant of rent from lands in Podemore Milton formerly held by John Amys, parties as for previous item, 5 Hen.V.
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/33 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.30 4. Settlement of lands at Pinn in Otterton(co. Devon) to use of Alice, wife of Thos.Pynn for life, naming several reversioners incl. John Lyte, 5 Hen.V.
5. Letter of attorney, John Golde to Thos.Lyte, for taking seisin of lands in Lytes Cary, High Ham, and Draycott, by feoffment of Edm.Lyte, 6 Hen.V.
6. Letter of attorney, Edm.Lyte to Adam Burnell to deliver seisin of lands in Lytes Cary, High Ham, Draycott, Chilton Cantelo, Podimore Milton and Yeovilton, to Rich. Backwell, parson of Charlton Mackrell, Thos.Plushe, parson of Babcary, and John Gold, 6 Hen.V.
7. Feoffment, details as for previous item, 6 Hen.V.
8. Deed and cntpt. by which the 3 persons above mentioned convey property in Lytes Cary, Chilton Cantelo and Podimore Milton to Agnes, sometime wife of Edm.Lyte for life with remainder to John, her son, 7 Hen.V.
9. Grant from same 3 persons to Peter, son of Edm.Lyte, of 10s. rent issuing from tenement in Yeovilton, and 4s. rent from land in Lytes Cary, also the reversion of both premises, to hold for life, with remainder to John, son and heir of Edm.Lyte, 7 Hen.V.
[in margin] 10. Release of right to lands in Babcary, Wm.'Pouton' of 'Camel' to John 'Haleighe', son and heir of Roger 'Rawley', being the dower of his mother Christian, 7 Hen.V.
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/34 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.31 11. Lands in Warmwell(co.Dorset): lease from John Tynham of Yeovil to John Lyte, Peter Lyte, Eliz., wife of Peter, and Edm., their son, for life, 9 Hen.V.
12. Grant from the 3 persons mentioned in 6-9 above of lands in Draycott, to Thos., son of Edm.Lyte for life, with remainder to John, son and heir of Edm.Lyte for ever, 9 Hen.7.
13. Letter of attorney to John Diker and John Davy to deliver seisin, 9 Hen.V.
Henry VI (31)
1. Lease of mess., etc., from John Lyte of Lytes Cary to Wm. Appolyn of High Ham, Agnes his wife and John their son, 2 Hen.VI.
2. Lease of land in the 'Combe' at Brixton English(co.Devon), John Lyte of Brixton English to John Attwood. Rent 20s. for first 30 yrs., then 100s., 4 Hen.VI.
3. Lease of mess.,etc., at Netherham in parish of High Ham, John Lyte to John(son of Wm.) Appolyn, Joane his wife, and their son, for life, 9 Hen.VI.
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/35 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.32 4. Lease of mess., curtilage, pigeon house and land at Draycott, formerly held by John Phelys of Limington, from John Lyte to Adam Taylour of Ashington, Margaret his wife, and Wm., their son, 10 Hen.VI.
5. Reconveyance of manor of Brixton English from trustees to John Lyte, Agnes his wife and their heirs, with cntrpt., 11 Hen.VI.
6. Lease of tenement, John Lyte to Robt.Rushecombe and Mary his wife, 16 Hen.VI.
7. Lease of 2 tenements, one with mess.[no place given: probably High Ham]. John Lyte to Wm.Appolyn, Agnes his wife and John their son, for life, 16 Hen.VI.
8. Grant of all lands in Babcary, Taunton, West Bagborough, and Clavelshay(in North Petherton), John Raleighe to Thos. Lyte; witness, John Lyte, 18 Hen.VI.
9. Quitclaim, premises and parties as in previous doct., 18 Hen.VI.
10. Letter of attorney, John Lyte to Robt.Walton and Peter Lyte, to deliver seisin in lands in Draycott to Thos., son of John Lyte, and Joane, wife of Thos., 18 Hen.VI.
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Contents:
P.33 11. The Pope's Bull wherein he giveth full remission and absolution of sinners to Thos.Lyte and Joane, wife of Thos., 18 Hen.VI.
12. Letter of attorney from John Peche, clerk, to Thos.Lyte and others, 20 Hen.VI (1442).
13. Quitclaim re. premises in Brixton Combe and Cofflete in Brixton(co.Devon), Reynold Shere to Thos.Lyte, 21 Hen.VI.
14. Grant, premises and parties as previous item, 21 Hen.VI.
15. Grant of annual pension of 40s. out of the manor of Charlton Adam, as a reward for good service: Richard Clastenburye, prior of Bruton, to Thos.Lyte, gent., 22 Hen.VI.
16. Lease in reversion of a burgage in 'Montagew'[Montacute] from Thos.Lyte to Wm.Baret and Christian his wife; premises then held by John Bokeland for life, 23 Hen.VI.
17. Grant of lands in the 'feelds and towne of Kingston and Yeovil', with common in the 'lordship of Marche': Alice Cokers,wid., dau. of John Faukner, sometime of Yeovil Marsh, to her 'cosen' Thos.Lyte, 23 Hen.VI.
18. Letters of attorney to deliver seisin, as previous item, 23 Hen.VI.
19. Quitclaim, as above, 23 Hen.VI.
20. Lease of tenement, curtilage and land from John Lyte to Robt.Rushcombe, Mary his wife and Joane their dau., 26 Hen.VI.
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMAND PLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/37 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.34 21. Letters of attorney by Thos.Lyte for delivery of seisin, relating to following item, 28 Hen.VI.
22. Feoffment from Thos.Lyte of 'Okeley' to Rich.Hethe, and others, of lands in Draycott and Podymore Milton which he had from his father, John Lyte, lands at Kingston and Yeovil which he had from Alice Cokers, and a burgage in Montacute which he had from John Bokeland, to hold in trust for certain uses, 28 Hen.VI.
23. General release of premises, as previous item, 28 Hen.VI.
24. Grant of all lands in Lytes Cary, High Ham and Nether Ham, from John Lyte to Wm.Stafford,esc., Wm.Carrent,esq., John Fitzjames and John Lyte,junr., 28 Hen.VI.
25. Quitclaim, parties as previous item, 29 Hen.VI.
Doug Smith
These are very helpful with the Fitzpayns:
Somerset Archive and Record Service
You are here Documents relating mainly to the Lyte family of Lytes Cary, Charlton Mackrell
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/27 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.24 [Chronological catalogue of deeds at Lytes Cary begins here]
Deeds without date (6)
1. Release, John Adame of Tucks Cary to Peter le Lyt.
2. Grant of land in Cary, Richard de Catymore to Hy. de Cary, son of 'Gurmund', witnessed by Sir Hugh de Lite
3. Grant of lands from Gilbert of Limington to Pierce of Draycott.
4. Grant of lands from Wm. Lord of Middleton to Peter of Draycott.
5. A deed re. 'Cary Cadmore' witnessed by Wm. de Lyt.
6. Grant of lands in Tucks Cary from Adam de Carye to son John, witnessed by Wm. de Lyt.
Henry III (1)
1. Deed re. land called le Gore in Tuckers Cary, witnessed by William de Lut'
Edward I (6)
1. Grant of lands in Middleton, Perce of Draycott to Robt., s. and h. of Wm. de Lyt, and Isabell his wife, dau. of the donor, in frank marriage. 2 Ed. I.
2. Grant of lands in 'Evellton', same parties and date.
3. Grant of lands in Middleton, same parties and date.
4. Grant of lands in Tuckers Cary from Adam de Cary to Roger Fitzpayne near to land of Marjory de Lyt, witnessed by Wm. de Lyt. 14 Ed. I. - 1286.
5. Grant of further lands in Tuckers Cary, same parties and date.
6. Grant of lands in Middleton, Robt., son of Wm. de Middleton to Pierce of Draycott. 21 Ed. I.
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/28 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.25 Edward III (16)
1. Grant of land in 'Marche', John de Yevale to John Fakner, w.Marjorye and s.John, 3 Ed.III.
2. Deed of lands in Lytes Cary, Sir Elias Pitzpayne to Stephen de la Hay, witnessed by Peter de 'Elyt', 7 Ed.III.
3. Grant of lands in Kingsdon, Sir Bryan, son of Sir Bryan de Govyer to Richerd Betevile and wife, witnessed by Peter le Lyte. 13 Ed.III.
4. Release, John, son of Pierce of Draycot to Peter le Lyte, 14 Ed.III.
5. Lands in manor of Tucks Cary, grant from Wm.de Cary, s.of Adam de Gary to Thos., his son, witnessed by Peter de Lyt, 17 Ed.III.
6. Lands in Middleton, grant from Peter le Lyt to Hugh Jenkings, 22 Ed.III.
7. Grant of lands in South Cary by Jo.Fitzpayne, 32 Ed.III.
8. Grant of lands in South Cary to 'Eliaz' Fitzpayne and wife Marjory, 33 Ed.III.
9. Grant of lands in Lytes Cary, Nicholas de Somerton to 'Elis' Fitzpayne, Lord of Lytescary, 33 Ed.III.
10. Letter of attorney to give seisin, re.previous item.
11. Grant of land in South Cary from 'some religious persons' to Elias Fitzpayne and wife Marjorye, 33 Ed.III.
12. Grant from Thos. son of John de Cary to Elias Fitzpayne, 40 Ed.III.
13. Grant from Peter de Gevellton to John Loveprice, 36 Ed.III.
14. Grant of land in Tucks Cary and Charlton Mackrell to Elias Fitzpayne, 38 Ed.III.
15. Grant of land in Lytes Cary and Charlton Mackrell from Thos., s.of John de Cary, to Sir Rich.Acton, 39 Ed.III.
16. Release of lands in Tucks Cary, Charlton Adam and Charlton Mackrell, Wm.,s.of John de Cary to Elias Fitzpayne, 39 Ed.III.
[In margin] Letter of attorney of John Horsey of Charlton Mackrell, 10 Ed.III, by which 'doth appear the antiquity of the Horseys to Charlton'.
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/29 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.26 Richard II (12)
1. Feoffment of lands in Lytes Cary, Edmund Lyte to Wm. Carrant and others, 2 R.II.
2. Re-grant of same premises to Edmund Lyte, wife Thomasyn, and his heirs, 3 R.II.
3. Release of all trusts between some parties, 3 R.II.
4. Memo made by Edm.Lyte of 'ancient evidences' destroyed by fire at his house at Yeovil Marsh, concerning lands near Ipswich in Norfolk which he ought to have inherited from his grandmother; the antiquity of the deeds appeared by the 'olde englishe and maner of writinge'. The fire happened in 6 R.II.
5. Release of all trusts, lands in Lytes Cary, Milton, 'Evellton' and Draycott, parties and date as item 3.
6. Grant of 6a. of land in Netherham, Edm.Lyte to Roger Stoke and wife for their lives, at 5s.10½ rent, 4 R.II.
7. Release from Edm., son of Peter Lyte, to Ellis, son of Sir John Fitzpayne, concerning a cottage in Tucker's Cary, 4 R.II.
8. Grant of all lands and tenements in Lytes Cary from Edm. Lyte to Thos.Moone, clerk, paying a rose yearly for 6 yrs., then £40 yearly, 4 R.II.
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/30 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.27 9. Grant of all lands in Lytes Cary, Elis, son of Sir John Fitzpayne to Sir John Thorp and others: in French, 5 R.II.
10. Lands and tenement in Netherham lately held by John Browninge to Wm., son of Robert Stake and his wife, 6 R.II.
11. Release of rent from, and reversion of tenement in Podimore Milton, also release of an annuity from Thos. 'Ralage' to Edm.Lyte, conditional upon payment of 10 marks within 4 yrs. Also cntrpt., 6 R.II.
12. Marr.settlement of Roger 'Raleighe' and Lucy, dau.of Edm. Lyte; dowry, £10 paid in 4 instalments and meat, drink, apparel and 'horsemeat' for 2 yrs. In French; also cntrpt., 5 R.II.
Henry IV (12)
1. Land and share of meadow in High Ham. grant from Edm.Lyte and John his son to John Dynt, wife Joane and 2 sons, also grant of rent from, and reversion of, mess. after death of Peter Stronby. Rents, 30s.6d. and 2s.respectively, 2 Hen.IV.
2. Letter of attorney to deliver seisin of lands in Brixham English (co.Devon) to John, son of Edm.Lyte, 6 Hen.IV
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/31 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.28. 3. Grant of land in Brixham English, Edm.Lyte to son John, at rent of 1d. yearly during life of Agnes, wife of grantor (formerly wid. of John Ashe) and subsequently 4 marks, 6 Hen.IV.
4. Grant of annuity of 4 marks, Margery, wid. of Elias Fitzpayne, to John Dennis, for term of 6 yrs., 6 Hen.IV.
5. Grant of authority to mortgage manor of Lytes Cary for 6 yrs. by Margaret, wid.of Elias Fitzpayne to Sir Thos., her son, to raise marriage position for Margaret her dau., 6 Hen.IV.
6. Letters of attorney from John Horsey and others to deliver seisin of manor of 'Pokereweston' to Eleanor, sometime wife of Sir John Fitzpayne, 7 Hen.IV.
7. Manor of Lytes Cary: conveyance from David Swynmon and wife Margaret to John Podemore and Margaret, dau. of Margaret Swynmon, for life of first Margaret, reserving rent during their lives and re-entry if Margaret junr. should die before her mother, 8 Hen.IV.
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/32 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.29 8. Letters of attorney to deliver seisin to Margaret, wife of John Podemore(sister to Thos.Fitzpayne) 8 Hen.IV [i.e., it appears that Margaret, wid.of Elias Fitzpayne, married David Swynmon and retained a life interest in the manor of Lytes Cary].
9. Grant of tenement called 'Lytescourts' from Edm.Lyte to Robt. Soth, chaplain, 9 Hen.IV.
10. Grant in reversion of mess. and tenement in Nether Ham to Rich. and John, sons of Wm.Appolyn, for life; rent 9s.6½d., 11 Hen.IV.
11. Grant in reversion of another mess. and tenement in Nether Ham to Wm.Appolyn, Agnes his wife, and Rich. and John their sons, for life; rent 2s.; even date with above.
Henry V. (13)
1. Lease of land and meadow in Lytes Cary formerly held by John Sheppard, from John 'Chichlye' to John 'Plushe', Christian his wife and Thos. their son, 2 Hen.V.
2. Lease of all lands in Podimore Milton, Edm.Lyte of Lytes Cary to Adam Burnell of Glastonbury, clerk, and Elizabeth his wife, dau.of Edmund Lyte; also cntpt., 3 Hen.V.
3. Grant of rent from lands in Podemore Milton formerly held by John Amys, parties as for previous item, 5 Hen.V.
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Contents:
P.30 4. Settlement of lands at Pinn in Otterton(co. Devon) to use of Alice, wife of Thos.Pynn for life, naming several reversioners incl. John Lyte, 5 Hen.V.
5. Letter of attorney, John Golde to Thos.Lyte, for taking seisin of lands in Lytes Cary, High Ham, and Draycott, by feoffment of Edm.Lyte, 6 Hen.V.
6. Letter of attorney, Edm.Lyte to Adam Burnell to deliver seisin of lands in Lytes Cary, High Ham, Draycott, Chilton Cantelo, Podimore Milton and Yeovilton, to Rich. Backwell, parson of Charlton Mackrell, Thos.Plushe, parson of Babcary, and John Gold, 6 Hen.V.
7. Feoffment, details as for previous item, 6 Hen.V.
8. Deed and cntpt. by which the 3 persons above mentioned convey property in Lytes Cary, Chilton Cantelo and Podimore Milton to Agnes, sometime wife of Edm.Lyte for life with remainder to John, her son, 7 Hen.V.
9. Grant from same 3 persons to Peter, son of Edm.Lyte, of 10s. rent issuing from tenement in Yeovilton, and 4s. rent from land in Lytes Cary, also the reversion of both premises, to hold for life, with remainder to John, son and heir of Edm.Lyte, 7 Hen.V.
[in margin] 10. Release of right to lands in Babcary, Wm.'Pouton' of 'Camel' to John 'Haleighe', son and heir of Roger 'Rawley', being the dower of his mother Christian, 7 Hen.V.
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/34 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.31 11. Lands in Warmwell(co.Dorset): lease from John Tynham of Yeovil to John Lyte, Peter Lyte, Eliz., wife of Peter, and Edm., their son, for life, 9 Hen.V.
12. Grant from the 3 persons mentioned in 6-9 above of lands in Draycott, to Thos., son of Edm.Lyte for life, with remainder to John, son and heir of Edm.Lyte for ever, 9 Hen.7.
13. Letter of attorney to John Diker and John Davy to deliver seisin, 9 Hen.V.
Henry VI (31)
1. Lease of mess., etc., from John Lyte of Lytes Cary to Wm. Appolyn of High Ham, Agnes his wife and John their son, 2 Hen.VI.
2. Lease of land in the 'Combe' at Brixton English(co.Devon), John Lyte of Brixton English to John Attwood. Rent 20s. for first 30 yrs., then 100s., 4 Hen.VI.
3. Lease of mess.,etc., at Netherham in parish of High Ham, John Lyte to John(son of Wm.) Appolyn, Joane his wife, and their son, for life, 9 Hen.VI.
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMONPLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/35 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.32 4. Lease of mess., curtilage, pigeon house and land at Draycott, formerly held by John Phelys of Limington, from John Lyte to Adam Taylour of Ashington, Margaret his wife, and Wm., their son, 10 Hen.VI.
5. Reconveyance of manor of Brixton English from trustees to John Lyte, Agnes his wife and their heirs, with cntrpt., 11 Hen.VI.
6. Lease of tenement, John Lyte to Robt.Rushecombe and Mary his wife, 16 Hen.VI.
7. Lease of 2 tenements, one with mess.[no place given: probably High Ham]. John Lyte to Wm.Appolyn, Agnes his wife and John their son, for life, 16 Hen.VI.
8. Grant of all lands in Babcary, Taunton, West Bagborough, and Clavelshay(in North Petherton), John Raleighe to Thos. Lyte; witness, John Lyte, 18 Hen.VI.
9. Quitclaim, premises and parties as in previous doct., 18 Hen.VI.
10. Letter of attorney, John Lyte to Robt.Walton and Peter Lyte, to deliver seisin in lands in Draycott to Thos., son of John Lyte, and Joane, wife of Thos., 18 Hen.VI.
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMAND PLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/36 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.33 11. The Pope's Bull wherein he giveth full remission and absolution of sinners to Thos.Lyte and Joane, wife of Thos., 18 Hen.VI.
12. Letter of attorney from John Peche, clerk, to Thos.Lyte and others, 20 Hen.VI (1442).
13. Quitclaim re. premises in Brixton Combe and Cofflete in Brixton(co.Devon), Reynold Shere to Thos.Lyte, 21 Hen.VI.
14. Grant, premises and parties as previous item, 21 Hen.VI.
15. Grant of annual pension of 40s. out of the manor of Charlton Adam, as a reward for good service: Richard Clastenburye, prior of Bruton, to Thos.Lyte, gent., 22 Hen.VI.
16. Lease in reversion of a burgage in 'Montagew'[Montacute] from Thos.Lyte to Wm.Baret and Christian his wife; premises then held by John Bokeland for life, 23 Hen.VI.
17. Grant of lands in the 'feelds and towne of Kingston and Yeovil', with common in the 'lordship of Marche': Alice Cokers,wid., dau. of John Faukner, sometime of Yeovil Marsh, to her 'cosen' Thos.Lyte, 23 Hen.VI.
18. Letters of attorney to deliver seisin, as previous item, 23 Hen.VI.
19. Quitclaim, as above, 23 Hen.VI.
20. Lease of tenement, curtilage and land from John Lyte to Robt.Rushcombe, Mary his wife and Joane their dau., 26 Hen.VI.
ABSTRACT OF THE COMMAND PLACE BOOK OF THOMAS LYTE DD\X\LY/3/37 16th cent - 17th cent
Contents:
P.34 21. Letters of attorney by Thos.Lyte for delivery of seisin, relating to following item, 28 Hen.VI.
22. Feoffment from Thos.Lyte of 'Okeley' to Rich.Hethe, and others, of lands in Draycott and Podymore Milton which he had from his father, John Lyte, lands at Kingston and Yeovil which he had from Alice Cokers, and a burgage in Montacute which he had from John Bokeland, to hold in trust for certain uses, 28 Hen.VI.
23. General release of premises, as previous item, 28 Hen.VI.
24. Grant of all lands in Lytes Cary, High Ham and Nether Ham, from John Lyte to Wm.Stafford,esc., Wm.Carrent,esq., John Fitzjames and John Lyte,junr., 28 Hen.VI.
25. Quitclaim, parties as previous item, 29 Hen.VI.
Doug Smith
al...@mindspring.com
Jul 28, 2013, 12:34:15 PM7/28/13
to
More on the FitzPayns:
'Parishes: Charlton Mackrell', A History of the County of Somerset: Volume 3 (1974), pp. 95-110. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=66491 Date accessed: 28 July 2013.
The manor of TUCKERS CARY, TUCKS CARY, or LITTLE CARY later known as COOKS CARY or LOWER LYTES CARY, is first mentioned in 1321, (fn. 204) but occurs as a place name from 1255–6 ('Towkerekary'). (fn. 205) It may possibly be identified with the smaller of two Domesday manors called Cary, both owned in 1086 by Humphrey the chamberlain. (fn. 206) In 1066 this had been held 'in parage' by two brothers, Ordric and Living, and, like other of Humphrey's manors, had formed part of the estate of Brihtric son of Alfgar. (fn. 207) By 1480 and at least until 1638 the manor was held under that of Cary Fitzpaine by fealty, suit of court, a rent of 12d., and ½ lb. of cummin. (fn. 208)
Richard de Gatemore, whose family may have held Cary Fitzpaine in 1086, (fn. 209) granted his lands in Tuckers Cary to Sir Roger FitzPayn in c. 1271. (fn. 210) In 1280 John de Gatemore, Richard's son, failed in an attempt to recover land and rent there from Sir Roger. (fn. 211) By 1321 the manor was held by Ellis FitzPayn and Gillian his wife, (fn. 212) but by 1345–6 his lands had passed to his widow and to their son John. (fn. 213) They were succeeded by Sir John FitzPayn and his wife Eleanor before 1380–1, (fn. 214) and in 1384 the manor was settled on their son Ellis. (fn. 215) In 1412 it was held by Sir Thomas FitzPayn, (fn. 216) but by 1428 had passed to his son John, (fn. 217) and by 1439 to John Austell, husband of Margaret FitzPayn. (fn. 218) In 1439 Austell conveyed his lands in 'Lytilkary alias Tokeryskary', then held for life by John Plasman, to his daughter Agnes, wife of Thomas Burton. (fn. 219) Agnes married Sir Nicholas St. Lo (d. 1486) (fn. 220) and was succeeded in turn by her son Sir John (d. 1499), (fn. 221) and grandson Nicholas St. Lo (d. 1508). (fn. 222) The latter's son, Sir John, sold the manor to John (III) Lyte (d. 1566) of Lytes Cary in 1540, (fn. 223) and thereafter the manor descended with that of Lytes Cary. (fn. 224) In 1720 Thomas (IV) Lyte sold it to his step-father Thomas Cooke, husband of Catherine Lyte; (fn. 225) it has been known since then as Cooks Cary. Cooke's widow and children conveyed the manor to Thomas Freke of Bristol in 1732, (fn. 226) from whom it passed to his daughter Frances and her husband John Willes of Astrop (Northants.). (fn. 227) Their son John Freke Willes, by will dated 1799, left the manor to his cousin the Revd. William Shippen Willes of Cirencester (Glos.), who sold it to William Dickinson of Kingweston in 1803. (fn. 228) Thereafter it descended with the manor of Charlton Mackrell, (fn. 229) although Cooks Cary farm was sold to the Dickinson tenant, Mr. F. Attwell, in 1930. (fn. 230)
Doug Smith
'Parishes: Charlton Mackrell', A History of the County of Somerset: Volume 3 (1974), pp. 95-110. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=66491 Date accessed: 28 July 2013.
The manor of TUCKERS CARY, TUCKS CARY, or LITTLE CARY later known as COOKS CARY or LOWER LYTES CARY, is first mentioned in 1321, (fn. 204) but occurs as a place name from 1255–6 ('Towkerekary'). (fn. 205) It may possibly be identified with the smaller of two Domesday manors called Cary, both owned in 1086 by Humphrey the chamberlain. (fn. 206) In 1066 this had been held 'in parage' by two brothers, Ordric and Living, and, like other of Humphrey's manors, had formed part of the estate of Brihtric son of Alfgar. (fn. 207) By 1480 and at least until 1638 the manor was held under that of Cary Fitzpaine by fealty, suit of court, a rent of 12d., and ½ lb. of cummin. (fn. 208)
Richard de Gatemore, whose family may have held Cary Fitzpaine in 1086, (fn. 209) granted his lands in Tuckers Cary to Sir Roger FitzPayn in c. 1271. (fn. 210) In 1280 John de Gatemore, Richard's son, failed in an attempt to recover land and rent there from Sir Roger. (fn. 211) By 1321 the manor was held by Ellis FitzPayn and Gillian his wife, (fn. 212) but by 1345–6 his lands had passed to his widow and to their son John. (fn. 213) They were succeeded by Sir John FitzPayn and his wife Eleanor before 1380–1, (fn. 214) and in 1384 the manor was settled on their son Ellis. (fn. 215) In 1412 it was held by Sir Thomas FitzPayn, (fn. 216) but by 1428 had passed to his son John, (fn. 217) and by 1439 to John Austell, husband of Margaret FitzPayn. (fn. 218) In 1439 Austell conveyed his lands in 'Lytilkary alias Tokeryskary', then held for life by John Plasman, to his daughter Agnes, wife of Thomas Burton. (fn. 219) Agnes married Sir Nicholas St. Lo (d. 1486) (fn. 220) and was succeeded in turn by her son Sir John (d. 1499), (fn. 221) and grandson Nicholas St. Lo (d. 1508). (fn. 222) The latter's son, Sir John, sold the manor to John (III) Lyte (d. 1566) of Lytes Cary in 1540, (fn. 223) and thereafter the manor descended with that of Lytes Cary. (fn. 224) In 1720 Thomas (IV) Lyte sold it to his step-father Thomas Cooke, husband of Catherine Lyte; (fn. 225) it has been known since then as Cooks Cary. Cooke's widow and children conveyed the manor to Thomas Freke of Bristol in 1732, (fn. 226) from whom it passed to his daughter Frances and her husband John Willes of Astrop (Northants.). (fn. 227) Their son John Freke Willes, by will dated 1799, left the manor to his cousin the Revd. William Shippen Willes of Cirencester (Glos.), who sold it to William Dickinson of Kingweston in 1803. (fn. 228) Thereafter it descended with the manor of Charlton Mackrell, (fn. 229) although Cooks Cary farm was sold to the Dickinson tenant, Mr. F. Attwell, in 1930. (fn. 230)
Doug Smith
taf
May 22, 2015, 12:24:56 PM5/22/15
to
On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 at 11:43:26 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> I believe this Margaret Hingeston Fortescue was the Margaret, daughter of Robert Hingeston & Margaret Caterall. Per Sir William Pole in 1791, the Margaret Hingeston who was wife of John Fortescue of Fallapit, was the sister of 'Phillip' [sic - Philip Hingeston was the last heir male. His sister Agnes married Robert Ayshford] 'wife of Robert Ashford, younger sonne of Willm Ashford, of Ashford, wch Willm, anno 4 of Kinge Henry 7 [1489/90], married with Margaret, the widow of Robert Hingeston':
> http://books.google.ca/books?id=WF4OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA306&dq=Margaret+Hingeston+Fortescue&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IznmUYeoCIisiALV3oCoDQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Margaret%20Hingeston%20Fortescue&f=false
>
[Better late than never.]
This Chancery suit demonstrates this to have been the case, although it shows an overlooked ,ale heir in the generation after Philip. I have not seen the original, just the catalog entry.
TNA C 1/490/31 : Coffyn v Fortescu : 1518-1529
Richard, son of Isabel Coffyn; John Fortescu and wife Margaret; Robert Aysscheford and wife Agnes, and John, son of Jane Gelys, versus William Fortescu of Wood, esq., over detention of Devon deeds to various lands late of John, grandson of Robert Hingston, Isabel, Margaret and Agnes being his aunts and heirs.
taf
> I believe this Margaret Hingeston Fortescue was the Margaret, daughter of Robert Hingeston & Margaret Caterall. Per Sir William Pole in 1791, the Margaret Hingeston who was wife of John Fortescue of Fallapit, was the sister of 'Phillip' [sic - Philip Hingeston was the last heir male. His sister Agnes married Robert Ayshford] 'wife of Robert Ashford, younger sonne of Willm Ashford, of Ashford, wch Willm, anno 4 of Kinge Henry 7 [1489/90], married with Margaret, the widow of Robert Hingeston':
> http://books.google.ca/books?id=WF4OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA306&dq=Margaret+Hingeston+Fortescue&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IznmUYeoCIisiALV3oCoDQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Margaret%20Hingeston%20Fortescue&f=false
>
[Better late than never.]
This Chancery suit demonstrates this to have been the case, although it shows an overlooked ,ale heir in the generation after Philip. I have not seen the original, just the catalog entry.
TNA C 1/490/31 : Coffyn v Fortescu : 1518-1529
Richard, son of Isabel Coffyn; John Fortescu and wife Margaret; Robert Aysscheford and wife Agnes, and John, son of Jane Gelys, versus William Fortescu of Wood, esq., over detention of Devon deeds to various lands late of John, grandson of Robert Hingston, Isabel, Margaret and Agnes being his aunts and heirs.
taf
Brad Verity
Jun 8, 2015, 9:04:22 PM6/8/15
to
On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 9:24:56 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> [Better late than never.]
> This Chancery suit demonstrates this to have been the case, although it shows an overlooked ,ale heir in the generation after Philip. I have not seen the original, just the catalog entry.
> TNA C 1/490/31 : Coffyn v Fortescu : 1518-1529
> Richard, son of Isabel Coffyn; John Fortescu and wife Margaret; Robert Aysscheford and wife Agnes, and John, son of Jane Gelys, versus William Fortescu of Wood, esq., over detention of Devon deeds to various lands late of John, grandson of Robert Hingston, Isabel, Margaret and Agnes being his aunts and heirs.
Thanks for this, Todd - it's great to have a primary document confirm the Hingeston pedigree. I'm not certain how John, grandson of Robert Hingeston (1452-1488) & Margaret Cotterall (d. 1508), fits into the family, but the likeliest explanation is that he was the son and heir of Philip Hingeston of Wonwell Court (d. 1508).
> [Better late than never.]
> This Chancery suit demonstrates this to have been the case, although it shows an overlooked ,ale heir in the generation after Philip. I have not seen the original, just the catalog entry.
> TNA C 1/490/31 : Coffyn v Fortescu : 1518-1529
> Richard, son of Isabel Coffyn; John Fortescu and wife Margaret; Robert Aysscheford and wife Agnes, and John, son of Jane Gelys, versus William Fortescu of Wood, esq., over detention of Devon deeds to various lands late of John, grandson of Robert Hingston, Isabel, Margaret and Agnes being his aunts and heirs.
Here's the post from the Mapping the Medieval Countryside website, which includes the Wonwell-Hingeston pedigree I'd put together, which the Chancery suit confirms:
http://blog.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/2013/07/ipm-as-identity-solver-elizabeth-wonwell-c-1432-1482-wife-of-sir-philip-courtenay-of-molland/
Cheers, -----Brad
taf
Jun 9, 2015, 8:45:24 PM6/9/15
to
On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 6:04:22 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> Thanks for this, Todd - it's great to have a primary document confirm the Hingeston pedigree. I'm not certain how John, grandson of Robert Hingeston (1452-1488) & Margaret Cotterall (d. 1508), fits into the family, but the likeliest explanation is that he was the son and heir of Philip Hingeston of Wonwell Court (d. 1508).
>
The original will likely clarify this.
> Thanks for this, Todd - it's great to have a primary document confirm the Hingeston pedigree. I'm not certain how John, grandson of Robert Hingeston (1452-1488) & Margaret Cotterall (d. 1508), fits into the family, but the likeliest explanation is that he was the son and heir of Philip Hingeston of Wonwell Court (d. 1508).
>
taf
taf
Jun 9, 2015, 11:54:39 PM6/9/15
to
On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 9:24:56 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> TNA C 1/490/31 : Coffyn v Fortescu : 1518-1529
>
> Richard, son of Isabel Coffyn; John Fortescu and wife Margaret; Robert
> Aysscheford and wife Agnes, and John, son of Jane Gelys, versus William
> Fortescu of Wood, esq., over detention of Devon deeds to various lands
> late of John, grandson of Robert Hingston, Isabel, Margaret and Agnes
> being his aunts and heirs.
Anyone recognize this John Gelys, or what surname this is likely to represent? Isabel Coffyn is Elizabeth, first wife of John Coffyn. Does any one know the origin of John Coffyn's widow, Agnes?
>
> Richard, son of Isabel Coffyn; John Fortescu and wife Margaret; Robert
> Aysscheford and wife Agnes, and John, son of Jane Gelys, versus William
> Fortescu of Wood, esq., over detention of Devon deeds to various lands
> late of John, grandson of Robert Hingston, Isabel, Margaret and Agnes
> being his aunts and heirs.
taf
taf
Jul 17, 2015, 1:37:35 PM7/17/15
to
On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 6:04:22 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 9:24:56 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> > TNA C 1/490/31 : Coffyn v Fortescu : 1518-1529
> > Richard, son of Isabel Coffyn; John Fortescu and wife Margaret; Robert Aysscheford and wife Agnes, and John, son of Jane Gelys, versus William Fortescu of Wood, esq., over detention of Devon deeds to various lands late of John, grandson of Robert Hingston, Isabel, Margaret and Agnes being his aunts and heirs.
>
> Thanks for this, Todd - it's great to have a primary document confirm the Hingeston pedigree. I'm not certain how John, grandson of Robert Hingeston (1452-1488) & Margaret Cotterall (d. 1508), fits into the family, but the likeliest explanation is that he was the son and heir of Philip Hingeston of Wonwell Court (d. 1508).
>
Still sorting it out (it is in bad shape - faded, discolored, moldy and degraded), but it explicitly refers to Robert as father of Philip, father of John.
> On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 9:24:56 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> > TNA C 1/490/31 : Coffyn v Fortescu : 1518-1529
> > Richard, son of Isabel Coffyn; John Fortescu and wife Margaret; Robert Aysscheford and wife Agnes, and John, son of Jane Gelys, versus William Fortescu of Wood, esq., over detention of Devon deeds to various lands late of John, grandson of Robert Hingston, Isabel, Margaret and Agnes being his aunts and heirs.
>
> Thanks for this, Todd - it's great to have a primary document confirm the Hingeston pedigree. I'm not certain how John, grandson of Robert Hingeston (1452-1488) & Margaret Cotterall (d. 1508), fits into the family, but the likeliest explanation is that he was the son and heir of Philip Hingeston of Wonwell Court (d. 1508).
>
taf
taf
Jul 18, 2015, 3:26:14 PM7/18/15
to
On Friday, July 17, 2015 at 10:37:35 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 6:04:22 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> > On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 9:24:56 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:
>
> > > TNA C 1/490/31 : Coffyn v Fortescu : 1518-1529
> > > Richard, son of Isabel Coffyn; John Fortescu and wife Margaret; Robert Aysscheford and wife Agnes, and John, son of Jane Gelys, versus William Fortescu of Wood, esq., over detention of Devon deeds to various lands late of John, grandson of Robert Hingston, Isabel, Margaret and Agnes being his aunts and heirs.
> >
> > Thanks for this, Todd - it's great to have a primary document confirm the Hingeston pedigree. I'm not certain how John, grandson of Robert Hingeston (1452-1488) & Margaret Cotterall (d. 1508), fits into the family, but the likeliest explanation is that he was the son and heir of Philip Hingeston of Wonwell Court (d. 1508).
> >
>
I will add that by my reading the document names the mother of Richard Coffyn as Elizabeth, not as Isabel. It calls her "late wife of John Coffyn", who, as father of the minor Richard, was party to the proceeding.
> On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 6:04:22 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> > On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 9:24:56 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:
>
> > > TNA C 1/490/31 : Coffyn v Fortescu : 1518-1529
> > > Richard, son of Isabel Coffyn; John Fortescu and wife Margaret; Robert Aysscheford and wife Agnes, and John, son of Jane Gelys, versus William Fortescu of Wood, esq., over detention of Devon deeds to various lands late of John, grandson of Robert Hingston, Isabel, Margaret and Agnes being his aunts and heirs.
> >
> > Thanks for this, Todd - it's great to have a primary document confirm the Hingeston pedigree. I'm not certain how John, grandson of Robert Hingeston (1452-1488) & Margaret Cotterall (d. 1508), fits into the family, but the likeliest explanation is that he was the son and heir of Philip Hingeston of Wonwell Court (d. 1508).
> >
>
taf
drjm...@gmail.com
Jun 11, 2019, 7:07:45 AM6/11/19
to
Dear Brad
Apologies for contact out of the blue.
We have never met but I was reading an exchange relating to Courtenay family of Molland and it would seem that you and your colleagues appear extremely knowledgeable about the Courtenay family.
I wonder if it would be possible to ask for your assistance in solving a genealogical problem that I have run into in my own Courtenay research?
Sincerely
Jason Courtney
Apologies for contact out of the blue.
We have never met but I was reading an exchange relating to Courtenay family of Molland and it would seem that you and your colleagues appear extremely knowledgeable about the Courtenay family.
I wonder if it would be possible to ask for your assistance in solving a genealogical problem that I have run into in my own Courtenay research?
Sincerely
Jason Courtney
taf
Jun 11, 2019, 10:01:08 AM6/11/19
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taf
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