*Trente-Deux Quartiers Ahnenreihe* for Eleanor of Aquitaine [1122-1204] [Version 5.1]
D. Spencer Hines
*Ahnenreihe* for Eleanor of Aquitaine. This is version 5.1, and I'll
continue to work on it.
Please remember that this is a work in progress. I'm sure there are many
shortfalls and potential or actual errors. My initial goal was to put the
names and places in French, as much as feasible, but without the
diacritics --- which don't yet port easily through all ISP's. Eleanor's
name has been left in English. There are many other practical compromises
with that Platonic ideal.
Extensive notes, which draw out and elucidate some of the ambiguities and
uncertainties, have been suppressed for this edition, in order to keep the
length manageable.
Laurent Ohier and his wife Yoshiko have been *very* helpful in this entire
process. Laurent has kindly corrected my schoolboy French and gently guided
me onto the right path. Any errors that remain are my fault and not Laurent
nor Yoshiko Ohier's, who make their home in Brest, Bretagne, France.
My profound thanks also to Alan B. Wilson, Leo van de Pas and Ed Mann, who
provided so much of the original data upon which the *trente-deux quartiers*
*Ahnenreihe* is based, primarily taken from Weis's AR7, Faris's
"Plantagenet Ancestry" and Cokayne's "The Complete Peerage."
I have also used dozens of ancillary sources, including historical maps of
France, in my private collections.
Charles Koberg and covername "Sisyphus" [a person, who may be an
*aficionado* of Albert Camus [1913-1960] [or perhaps just a fan of
Sisyphus's --- continuously rolling that stone up the mountain] --- as am
I --- have all been critically helpful too. If I've left someone out,
please let me know --- and I shall make rapid amends.
I've added the names of French departments and regions to this version.
Yes, I realize this is an anachronism. These were not the names of the
places in the 11th or 12th Century. However, my goal is to help people who
might want to visit the birth, marriage and burial sites of the ancestors of
this marvelous woman, who has so much captured the imagination of the world.
It seems highly unlikely that any of my readers will be visiting these sites
in Anno Domini 1204, the year of Eleanor's death --- when the names, places
and political alignments were, of course, quite different. Eleanor is also
the Ancestor, or Ancestress --- if you prefer --- of many of the people who
frequent soc.gen.medieval, and soc.history.medieval. Eleanor of Aquitaine
is
tentatively my 23rd Great-Grandmother. One of a potential 16,777,216 slots
to be filled at that distant level, ---- as well as many other more distant
relationships, of course. Understandably, I'm not talking about unique
ancestors with that number.
Tens and probably hundreds of millions of folks are descended from this
Great Lady --- styled to perfection by Katherine Hepburn, who won an Academy
Award for Best Actress in 1968, [tied with Barbra Streisand] for portraying
her in "The Lion in Winter." I imagine many of us *see* Katherine Hepburn,
when we think of Eleanor.
This is meant to be a practical, useful document --- not simply an
antiquarian artifact. Please enjoy it. I understand that Ballantine Books
is scheduled to publish a new biography of Eleanor of Aquitaine, by Alison
Weir, in December [ISBN: 034-540-5404]. Perhaps this *Ahnenreihe* may prove
to be a useful guide to some of the central and peripheral characters.
Many of the 10th and 11th Century dates are, in my opinion, quite tentative.
I welcome debates on those dates as well as the later ones.
One date, of particular significance, is the birth date of Harlette/Herleve
de Falaise, Mother of William the Conqueror and the 3rd Great-Grandmother of
Eleanor of Aquitaine.
Alan B. Wilson has pointed out that *Europaeische Stammtafeln* [ES], Detlev
Schwennicke's *Neue Folge* Band III, Tafel 694B does not provide any dates
for Harlette/Herleve.
The 1003 date, reportedly appears in two not terribly reliable sources.
Michael L. Call's, "Royal Ancestors of Some American Families," Chart 403:3,
and Roderick Stuart's, "Royalty for Commoners", 160:32. It may
have been a guess by Call, and copied by Stuart from Call, or some other
secondary source. Alan B. Wilson kindly provided me with these data.
Brian Tompsett, at the University of Hull, has 1012. Ergo, the date 1003
for Harlette de Falaise's birth, while plausible, has not yet been confirmed
to my satisfaction. Why then do I include it in the *Ahnenreihe*? Because I
want to highlight it and draw it to people's attention --- hoping that we
can collectively shake something out of the rafters, and from beneath the
floorboards, that might be more concrete.
Corrections, additions and comments are most welcome. If I've forgotten to
give someone due credit, please let me know and I shall do so. There are no
deliberate oversights intended, required or desired.
Me ke aloha pumehana,
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Fortem Posce Animum
D. Spencer Hines ----"On résiste à l'invasion des armées; on ne résiste pas
à l'invasion des idées." Victor Hugo [1802-1885]
Ancestors of ELEANOR of Aquitaine Queen of England - 1 Sep 1998
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
FIRST GENERATION
1. ELEANOR of Aquitaine Queen of England was born in 1122 in Chateau de
Belin-Beliet, Gironde, Aquitaine, France. She died on 31 Mar 1204 in
Fontevraud-L'Abbaye, Maine-et-Loire, Pays de la Loire, France.
SECOND GENERATION
2. Guillaume VIII/X Duc d'Aquitaine was born in 1099 in Toulouse,
Haute-Garonne, Midi-Pyrenees, France. He died on 9 Apr 1137 in Saint
Jacques-de-Compostelle, Galicia, Spain. He was married to Alienor de
Chatellerault in 1121.
3. Alienor de Chatellerault was born in 1103 in Chatellerault, Vienne,
Poitou-Charentes, France. She died after Mar 1130.
THIRD GENERATION
4. Guillaume VII/IX 'le Troubadour' Duc d'Aquitaine was born about 22 Oct
1071 in France. He died on 10 Feb 1126/27. He was married to Philippa de
Toulouse in 1094.
5. Philippa de Toulouse was born about 1073 in France. She died on 28 Nov
1117 in Fontevraud-L'Abbaye, Maine-et-Loire, Pays de la Loire, France.
6. Aimery I de la Rochefoucauld Vicomte de Chatellerault, Vienne was born
about 1076. He died on 7 Nov 1151 in L'Abbaye de Notre Dame de
Noyers-sur-Cher, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France. He was married to
Dangereuse de l'Isle-Bouchard in 1109.
7. Dangereuse de l'Isle-Bouchard was born about 1079 in L'Ile-Bouchard,
Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France. She died after 1119.
FOURTH GENERATION
8. Guy Guillaume VI\VIII Duc d'Aquitaine was born about 1026. He died on
25 Sep 1086 in Chateau de Chize, Deux-Sevres, Poitou-Charentes, France. He
was married to Hildegarde de Bourgogne in 1068/69.
9. Hildegarde de Bourgogne was born about 1050. She died after 1104.
10. Guillaume IV de Toulouse Comte de Toulouse was born about 1040. He
died in 1094 in Huesca, Spain, Killed in Action. He was married to Emma de
Mortaigne before 1080.
11. Emma de Mortaigne was born about 1058 in Mortagne-au-Perche, Orne,
Basse-Normandie, France. She died in 1080.
12. Boso II de la Rochefoucauld Vicomte de Chatellerault was born about
1036. He died in 1092. He was married to Alienor de Thouars about 1075.
13. Alienor de Thouars was born about 1050 in Thouars, Deux-Sevres,
Poitou-Charentes, France. She died about 1093.
14. Barthelemy de l'Isle Bouchard Seigneur de l'Isle-Bouchard was born in
1049. He died after 1097. He was married to Gerberge.
15. Gerberge was born in 1053.
FIFTH GENERATION
16. Guillaume III\V le Grand Duc d'Aquitaine was born in 969 in Poitou,
France. He died on 31 Jan 1030. He was married to Agnes de Macon Comtesse
de Bourgogne in 1019.
17. Agnes de Macon Comtesse de Bourgogne was born about 995. She died on
10 Nov 1068.
18. Robert I de Bourgogne Duc de Bourgogne was born in 1011. He died on
21 Mar 1076 in Fleury-sur-Ouche, Orne, Normandie, France. He was married to
Ermengarde d'Anjou about 1048.
19. Ermengarde d'Anjou was born about 1018. She died on 18 Mar 1076 in
Fleury-sur-Ouche, Orne, Normandie, France.
20. Ponce II Guillaume de Toulouse Comte de Toulouse, Albi et Dijon was
born about 990. He died in 1060. He was married to Almodis de la Marche
before 29 Jun 1053.
21. Almodis de la Marche was born about 1022. She died on 16 Oct 1071.
22. Robert de Mortaigne Comte de Mortaigne/Earl of Cornwall was born after
1040 in Normandie, France. He died on 8 Dec 1091. He was married to
Matilda de Montgomery before 1066.
23. Matilda de Montgomery was born about 1039. She died about 1085.
24. Hugues de Chatellerault Vicomte de Chatellerault was born about 1008.
He died in 1075. He was married to Gerberga de la Rochefoucauld in 1035.
25. Gerberga de la Rochefoucauld was born about 1012 in La Rochefoucauld,
Charente, Poitou-Charentes, France. She died after 1055.
26. Aimery IV de Thouars Vicomte de Thouars was born about 1024 in
Thouars, Deux-Sevres, Poitou-Charentes, France. He died in 1093. He was
married to Aurengarde de Mauleon.
27. Aurengarde de Mauleon was born about 1030 in Mauleon, Deux Sevres,
Poitou-Charentes, France. She died after 1060.
28. Archambaud "Borel" Seigneur de l'Isle Bouchard was born in 1019 in
Ile-Bouchard, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France. He died before 1084. He was
married to Agnes de l'Isle-Bouchard Dame de l'Isle Bouchard.
29. Agnes de l'Isle-Bouchard Dame de l'Isle Bouchard was born about 1023
in Ile-Bouchard, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France. She died after 1040.
SIXTH GENERATION
32. Guillaume II (IV) Fier a bras Duc d'Aquitaine was born about 937. He
died on 3 Apr 995 in Saint-Maixent-L'Ecole, Deux-Sevres, Poitou-Charentes,
France. He was married to Emma de Blois about 968.
33. Emma de Blois was born about 950. She died after 1003.
34. Otto I Guillaume Comte de Bourgogne was born about 958/59. He died on
21 Sep 1026/27. He was married to Ermentrude de Roucy about 982.
35. Ermentrude de Roucy was born about 950. She died on 5 Mar 1003/4.
36. ROBERT II "le Pieux" Roi de France was born on 27 Mar 972 in Orleans,
Loiret, Centre, France. He died on 20 Jul 1031 in Melun, Seine et Marne,
Ile-de-France, France. He was married to Constance d' Arles in 1005/6.
37. Constance d' Arles was born about 986 in Arles, Bouches-du-Rhone,
Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur, France. She died on 25 Jul 1032 in Melun, Seine
et Marne, Ile-de-France, France.
38. Foulques III "Nerra" Comte d'Anjou was born about 970/71. He died on
21 Jun 1040 in Metz, Moselle, Lorraine, France. He was married to
Hildegarde de Lorraine after 1000.
39. Hildegarde de Lorraine was born between 964 and 974 in France. She
died on 1 Apr 1046 in Jerusalem, Holy Land.
40. Guillaume III "Taillefer" de Toulouse Comte de Toulouse was born about
947. He died in Sep 1037. He was married to Emma de Venaissin about 990.
41. Emma de Venaissin was born about 965. She died after 1063.
42. Bernard I de la Marche Comte de la Marche was born about 986. He died
between 1038 and 16 Jun 1047. He was married to Amelia de Montignac.
43. Amelia de Montignac was born about 990. She died in 1072.
44. Herluin de Conteville Vicomte de Conteville was born about 1001 in
Conteville. He died about 1066. He was married to Harlette de Falaise
Officier du Palais between 1028 and 1030.
45. Harlette de Falaise Officier du Palais was born about 1003 in Falaise,
Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France. She died about 1050.
46. Roger II de Montgomery Vicomte de Heimois was born about 1022. He
died on 27 Jul 1094 in Shrewsbury Abbey, England. He was married to Mabel
d'Alencon-Belleme after 1048.
47. Mabel d'Alencon-Belleme was born about 1026 in Alencon, Orne,
Basse-Normandie, France. She died on 2 Dec 1082 in Chateau de Burres.
48. Boso I de Chatellerault was born about 965. He died before 1013. He
was married to Amelie about 1010.
49. Amelie was born about 970. She died after 1010.
50. Foucauld I de la Roche was born about 982. He died about 1037. He was
married to Gersinde?.
51. Gersinde? was born about 986. She died after 1026.
52. Geoffroy II de Thouars Vicomte de Thouars was born about 980 in
Thouars, Deux-Sevres, Poitou-Charentes, France. He died in 1055 in St.
Michael in Lherm. He was married to Ainora.
53. Ainora was born about 1002. She died after 1060.
58. Hugues de l'Isle-Bouchard died after 1030.
Gentle readers please note that we are still missing #30, #31, #54, #55,
#56, #57, #59, #60, #61, #62 and #63. I hope folks can help us fill in
those lacunae.
All Best Wishes,
D. Spencer Hines
Exitus Acta Probat
ED MANN
<and I edited - so sue me 8^)>
> Here's the latest version of my humble little *trente-deux quartiers*
> *Ahnenreihe* for Eleanor of Aquitaine.
> 18. Robert I de Bourgogne Duc de Bourgogne was born in 1011. He died on
> 21 Mar 1076 in Fleury-sur-Ouche, Orne, Normandie, France. He was married to
> Ermengarde d'Anjou about 1048.
>
> 19. Ermengarde d'Anjou was born about 1018. She died on 18 Mar 1076 in
> Fleury-sur-Ouche, Orne, Normandie, France.
I have Robert's 2nd wife, Helie de Semur as mother of # 9, Hildegarde de
Bourgogne.
See Ä108-22.
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
AACPW = Roberts & Reitwiesner, _American Ancestors and Cousins of
the Princess of Wales_, [page].
AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
[Pres. # : page].
BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat emptor.
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat emptor.
WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page]
John Burfeind
Thanks for posting the "Trente-Deux Quartiers Ahnenreihe* for Eleanor of
Aquitaine [1122-1204] [Version 5.1]". A few months ago I read a book
written in 1950 by Amy Kelly titled "Eleanor of Aquitaine and the Four
Kings". What a life Eleanor had, absolutely amazing. Do you plan to publish
your research as part of a larger work?
John Burfeind
joh...@execpc.com
D. Spencer Hines
You are absolutely correct. Amy Kelly's book is a brilliant work.
She wrote it at Wellesley and Harvard published it.
One, of many, of the reasons it is such a brilliant book is that it is not
marred by an overwhelming streak of tub-thumping feminist blush.
No, I donated my Eleanor of Aquitaine *Ahnenreihe* to the good folks here at
SGM and SHM.
Cheers,
DSH
--
D. Spencer Hines --- William Jefferson Blythe III [Bill Clinton] President
of the United States --- Peccatoris Justificatio Absque Paenitentia, Legem
Destruit Moralem. "Clinton's an unusually good liar. Unusually good."
Senator Bob Kerrey [Democrat, Nebraska]
John Burfeind wrote in message <6sl4da$j...@newsops.execpc.com>...
gmoreau
écrit:
>Ancestors of ELEANOR of Aquitaine Queen of England - 1 Sep 1998
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>---
Also queen of France (1137-1152)
Gaėtan
D. Spencer Hines
You are absolutely correct --- and I have it in the notes. Other titles are
there as well.
Should I say Queen of France and Queen of England? The data entry field
length is the current technical constraint.
But, yes --- of course, she was Queen of France, as wife of Louis VII.
Thank you.
Comments, Corrections and Additions Are Welcome. [Regardless Of What Bennett
Says.]
DSH
--
D. Spencer Hines --- William Jefferson Blythe III [Bill Clinton] President
of the United States --- Peccatoris Justificatio Absque Paenitentia, Legem
Destruit Moralem. "Clinton's an unusually good liar. Unusually good."
Senator Bob Kerrey [Democrat, Nebraska]
gmoreau wrote in message <35ef3d03...@news.hol.fr>...
>le 2 Sep 1998 06:00:07 GMT, "D. Spencer Hines" <shi...@worldnet.att.net> a
>écrit:
>
>>Ancestors of ELEANOR of Aquitaine Queen of England - 1 Sep 1998
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
D. Spencer Hines
This issue as to who was the Mother of Hildegarde de Bourgogne comes up each
time I post the Eleanor of Aquitaine *Trente-Deux Quartiers Ahnenreihe.*
Hildegarde was/is also known as Audearde de Bourgogne and Aldegarde de
Bourgogne.
The crux of the issue is confirming, if possible, the identification for
Hildegarde's Mother as either Ermengarde d'Anjou or Helie de
Semur-en-Brionnais. ES Band II, Tafel 20 is one relevant entry point and is
my source.
Alan B. Wilson and I discussed this in May of 1997 and he said, as follows:
"Yes, Schwennicke (ed.) Europaische Stammtafeln, ii, 20, was what I relied
on. I am aware that earlier sources say Helie. Moriarty, p. 40, for example
gives the explicit date, 16 Jan 1055, for the divorce of Helie from Robert.
If that were correct Hildegarde would almost surely be the daughter of
Helie. I assume that whoever worked on the ES table was acquainted with this
earlier literature and had some basis for giving the firm date, 1046."
Alan B. Wilson <abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu>
Now, of course, Alan Wilson may have new data on this matter. I know he is
very careful and meticulous and would update his database if new, convincing
information came to light. He may have more to say.
ES and Moriarty, as well as AR7, are reportedly in conflict on this
identification.
So, my understanding, based on the data currently in hand, is that Robert I
'le Vieux" de Bourgogne married Ermengarde about 1048 and Hildegarde was
born about 1050.
Further, my understanding is that Robert I "le Vieux" had married Helie de
Semur-en-Brionnais about 1033 but divorced, and in fact "disowned
her"---[why I do not know] in 1046. Can anyone here tell us what happened?
Perhaps he just traded Helie in for a newer and younger model? Ermengarde
appears to be about two years younger than Helie?
A critical issue, of course, is to try to nail down which was the first and
which was the second wife. ES and AR7 [108-22] do not reportedly concur.
Helie was allegedly the mother of all Robert's other legitimate children
before Hildegarde was born.
Also, Helie de Semur-en-Brionnais was reportedly born in 1016 but does
anyone have a firm death date for her, i.e., better than just 'after 1055'?
Further thoughts and interpretations anyone? New sources other than ES, AR7
and Moriarty?
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- William Jefferson Blythe III [Bill Clinton] President
of the United States --- Peccatoris Justificatio Absque Paenitentia, Legem
Destruit Moralem. "Clinton's an unusually good liar. Unusually good."
Senator Bob Kerrey [Democrat, Nebraska]
-----Original Message-----
From: ED MANN <EDL...@MAIL2.LCIA.COM>
To: D. Spencer Hines <shi...@worldnet.att.net>; Medieval Genealogy
Discussion List <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: *Trente-Deux Quartiers Ahnenreihe* for Eleanor of Aquitaine
[1122-1204] [Version 5.1]
>D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>
><and I edited - so sue me 8^)>
>
>> Here's the latest version of my humble little *trente-deux quartiers*
>> *Ahnenreihe* for Eleanor of Aquitaine.
>
>> 18. Robert I de Bourgogne Duc de Bourgogne was born in 1011. He died
on
>> 21 Mar 1076 in Fleury-sur-Ouche, Orne, Normandie, France. He was married
to
>> Ermengarde d'Anjou about 1048.
>>
>> 19. Ermengarde d'Anjou was born about 1018. She died on 18 Mar 1076 in
>> Fleury-sur-Ouche, Orne, Normandie, France.
>
>I have Robert's 2nd wife, Helie de Semur as mother of # 9, Hildegarde de
>Bourgogne.
>
>See Ä108-22.
Actually, this is not what AR7 [Weis, Sheppard, Faris] Line 108-22 says.
There is no mention of Hildegarde de Bourgogne as the daughter of Helie at
this entry.
Perhaps Ed Mann would care to give us another citation.
He may be thinking of Line 110-22 and 23.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
D. Spencer Hines
SETTIPANI
good table of her 128 ancestors by E. St-Phalle in ‘Heraldique and
Genealogy’, 139 (1996), p. 172. Neverthless this one, as D. S. Hines’,
necessite some minor amendments. I have no time for a complete study, so
I give only there some remarks in reviewing my future book on Aquitaine.
I have marked with ‘*’ the corrections to D. S. Hines’ work. The items
between ‘[ ]’ have to be deleted. Amelia, wife of Bernard de la Marche
was not ‘de Montignac’ : this is an error of J. Depoin. ‘d’Angoulême’ is
a guess of mine. For Otte-Guillaume, you can see my paper ‘Les origines
maternelles du comte de Bourgogne Otte-Guillaume’ in ‘Les Annales de
Bourgogne’, 66 (1994), p. 5-63 (the response by H. de Chizelle, ibid.,
68 (1996), p. 79-83 is largely unconvincing). Be cautious, all this
ought to be checked.
Ancestors of ELEANOR of Aquitaine Queen of England - 1 Sep 1998
--------------------------------------------------------------------
FIRST GENERATION
1. ELEANOR of Aquitaine Queen of England was born in 1122 in Chateau
de Belin-Beliet, Gironde, Aquitaine, France. She died on 31 Mar 1204 in
Fontevraud-L'Abbaye, Maine-et-Loire, Pays de la Loire, France.
SECOND GENERATION
2. Guillaume VIII/X Duc d'Aquitaine was born in 1099 in Toulouse,
Haute-Garonne, Midi-Pyrenees, France. He died on 9 Apr 1137 in Saint
Jacques-de-Compostelle, Galicia, Spain. He was married to Alienor de
Chatellerault in 1121.
3. Alienor de Chatellerault was born in 1103 in Chatellerault, Vienne,
Poitou-Charentes, France. She died after Mar 1130 *(probably before
1137)*.
THIRD GENERATION
4. Guillaume VII/IX 'le Troubadour' Duc d'Aquitaine was born about 22
Oct 1071 in France. He died on 10 Feb 1126/27. He was married to
Philippa de Toulouse in 1094.
5. Philippa de Toulouse was born about 1073 *?* in France. She died on
28 Nov 1117 in Fontevraud-L'Abbaye, Maine-et-Loire, Pays de la Loire,
France.
6. Aimery I Vicomte de Chatellerault, Vienne was born about *1080*. He
died on 7 Nov 1151 in L'Abbaye de Notre Dame de Noyers-sur-Cher,
Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France. He was married to Dangereuse *(or
Maubergeonne)* de l'Isle-Bouchard *before* 1109.
7. Dangereuse de l'Isle-Bouchard was born about 1079 in L'Ile-Bouchard,
Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France. She died after 1119.
FOURTH GENERATION
8. Guy Guillaume VI\VIII Duc d'Aquitaine was born about 1026. He died
on 25 Sep 1086 in Chateau de Chize, Deux-Sevres, Poitou-Charentes,
France. He was married to Hildegarde de Bourgogne in 1068/69.
9. Hildegarde de Bourgogne was born about 1050. She died after 1104.
10. Guillaume IV de Toulouse Comte de Toulouse was born about 1040.
He died in 1094 in Huesca, Spain, Killed in Action. He was married to
Emma de Mortaigne before 1080.
11. Emma de Mortaigne was born about 1058 in Mortagne-au-Perche, Orne,
Basse-Normandie, France. She died in 1080.
12. Boso II *[de la Rochefoucauld]*Vicomte de Chatellerault was born
about *1055*. He died in *1101*. He was married to Alienor de Thouars
about 1075.
13. Alienor de Thouars was born about *1060* in Thouars, Deux-Sevres,
Poitou-Charentes, France. She died after 1093.
14. Barthelemy de l'Isle Bouchard Seigneur de l'Isle-Bouchard *[was
born in 1049]*. He died after *1108*. He was married to Gerberge.
15. Gerberge, *probably allied to Boso II of Chatellerault, was born
about 1065*.
FIFTH GENERATION
16. Guillaume III\V le Grand Duc d'Aquitaine was born in 969 in
Poitou, France. He died on 31 Jan 1030. He was married *(3°, since
1018)* to Agnes de Macon Comtesse de Bourgogne in 1019.
17. Agnes de Macon Comtesse de Bourgogne was born about 995. She died
on 10 Nov 1068.
18. Robert I de Bourgogne Duc de Bourgogne was born in 1011. He died
on 21 Mar 1076 in Fleury-sur-Ouche, Orne, Normandie, France. He was
married to Ermengarde d'Anjou about 1048.
19. Ermengarde d'Anjou was born about 1018. She died on 18 Mar 1076 in
Fleury-sur-Ouche, Orne, Normandie, France.
20. Ponce II Guillaume de Toulouse Comte de Toulouse, Albi et Dijon
was born about 990. He died in *1057*. He was married to Almodis de la
Marche before 29 Jun 1053.
21. Almodis de la Marche was born about *1025*. She died on 16 Oct
1071.
22. Robert de Mortaigne Comte de Mortaigne/Earl of Cornwall was born
after 1040 in Normandie, France. He died on 8 Dec 1091. He was married
to Matilda de Montgomery before 1066.
23. Matilda de Montgomery was born about 1039. She died about 1085.
24. Hugues de Chatellerault Vicomte de Chatellerault was born about
*1010*. He died in *1069/70*. He was married to Gerberga *[de la
Rochefoucauld in 1035].
25. Gerberga [de la Rochefoucauld was born about 1012 in La
Rochefoucauld,Charente, Poitou-Charentes, France]*. She died after
1055.
26. Aimery IV de Thouars Vicomte de Thouars was born about 1024 in
Thouars, Deux-Sevres, Poitou-Charentes, France. He died in 1093. He
was married to Aurengarde de Mauleon.
27. Aurengarde *sister of Geoffrey* de Mauleon was born about 1030 in
Mauleon, Deux Sevres, Poitou-Charentes, France. She died after 1060.
28. Archambaud "Borel" Seigneur de l'Isle Bouchard *[was born in 1019
in Ile-Bouchard]*, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France. He died *in 1068*.
He was married to *Amabilis* de l'Isle-Bouchard Dame de l'Isle
Bouchard.
29. *Amabilis* de l'Isle-Bouchard Dame de l'Isle Bouchard was born
about *1035* *[in Ile-Bouchard]*, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France. She
died after 1040.
SIXTH GENERATION
32. Guillaume II (IV) Fier a bras Duc d'Aquitaine was born about 937.
He died on 3 Apr 995 in Saint-Maixent-L'Ecole, Deux-Sevres,
Poitou-Charentes,France. He was married to Emma de Blois about 968.
33. Emma de Blois was born about 950. She died after 1003.
34. Otto I Guillaume Comte de Bourgogne was born about *962*. He died
on 21 Sep *1026*. He was married to Ermentrude de Roucy about *981*.
35. Ermentrude de Roucy was born about *945/50*. She died on 5 Mar
1003/4.
36. ROBERT II "le Pieux" Roi de France was born on 27 Mar 972 in
Orleans,Loiret, Centre, France. He died on 20 Jul 1031 in Melun, Seine
et Marne,Ile-de-France, France. He was married to Constance d' Arles in
1005/6.
37. Constance d' Arles was born about 986 in Arles, Bouches-du-Rhone,
Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur, France. She died on 25 Jul 1032 in Melun,
Seine et Marne, Ile-de-France, France.
38. Foulques III "Nerra" Comte d'Anjou was born about 970/71. He died
on 21 Jun 1040 in Metz, Moselle, Lorraine, France. He was married to
Hildegarde de Lorraine after 1000.
39. Hildegarde de Lorraine was born *about 985*. She died on 1 Apr
1046 in Jerusalem, Holy Land.
40. Guillaume III "Taillefer" de Toulouse Comte de Toulouse was born
about *975/8*. He died *after* Sep 1037. He was married to Emma de
*Provence about 1010 (between 1006/1021)*.
41. Emma de *Provence* was born about *995*. She died after 1063.
42. Bernard I de la Marche Comte de la Marche was born about *995*.
He died between 1038 and 16 Jun 1047. He was married to Amelia *[de
Montignac]*.
43. Amelia *[d’Angoulême]* was born about *1005*. She died in 1072.
44. Herluin de Conteville, Vicomte de Conteville was born about 1001 in
Conteville. He died about 1066. He was married to Harlette de Falaise
Officier du Palais between 1028 and 1030.
45. Harlette de Falaise *[Officier du Palais]* was born about 1003 in
Falaise,Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France. She died about 1050.
46. Roger II de Montgomery Vicomte de Heimois was born about 1022. He
died on 27 Jul 1094 in Shrewsbury Abbey, England. He was married to
Mabeld'Alencon-Belleme after 1048.
47. Mabel d'Alencon-Belleme was born about 1026 in Alencon, Orne,
Basse-Normandie, France. She died on 2 Dec 1082 in Chateau de Burres.
[***48. Boso I de Chatellerault was born about 965. He died before
1013. He was married to Amelie about 1010. = 94 ! !]
[***49. Amelie was born about 970. She died after 1010 = 95 ! ! ]
48. Foucauld I de la Roche was born about 980. He died between
1027/1047. He was married to Gersinde.
*49. Gersinde was born about 990. She died after 1027.*
52. Geoffroy II de Thouars, Vicomte de Thouars was born about *990 [in
Thouars, Deux-Sevres, Poitou-Charentes, France].* He died in 1055 in
St.Michael in Lherm. He was married to Ainora.
53. Ainora *[was born about 1002]*. She died after 1060.
*54. Girard Borel, nobilissimus vir, son of a miles, vassal of Fulk
Nerra 1026/1040. He died in 1046/8.
*55. Oda, fl. 1026/1040.
58. Hugues de l'Isle-Bouchard died *1030/2*.
CS
D. Spencer Hines
to have them.
But, in order to make any changes --- I will need something more than just:
>necessite some minor amendments. I have no time for a complete study, so
>I give only there some remarks in reviewing my future book on Aquitaine.
>I have marked with ‘*’ the corrections to D. S. Hines’ work. The items
>between ‘[ ]’ have to be deleted.
Surely, M. Settipani will understand that if he "has no time for a complete
study" that hardly inspires enough confidence to generate an immediate
change in the *Ahnenreihe*, without a concrete citation.
So, to clarify --- I do not say he is mistaken at all, and he is French,
which helps --- but if he is disagreeing with ES *Neue Folge* he needs to
provide some more evidence. As to naming conventions, there is a great deal
of variability in those criteria --- so, I should expect something more than
just "the items between '[ ]' have to be deleted. N'est-ce pas?
In conclusion, it is delightful to see you posting here and I hope you will
continue to do so.
D. Spencer Hines
Exitus Acta Probat
Please see below for more.
--
D. Spencer Hines --- William Jefferson Blythe III [Bill Clinton] President
of the United States --- Peccatoris Justificatio Absque Paenitentia, Legem
Destruit Moralem. "Clinton's an unusually good liar. Unusually good."
Senator Bob Kerrey [Democrat, Nebraska]
SETTIPANI wrote in message <35F04C...@club-internet.fr>...
>For the genealogy of Alienor d’Aquitaine (her french name), there is a
>good table of her 128 ancestors by E. St-Phalle in ‘Heraldique and
>Genealogy’, 139 (1996), p. 172.
1. Yes, I indicated that I deliberately put her name in English. Her
French name is in the notes. I agree that one could go either way on that
one.
2. I think Christian Settipani may mean "her 127 ancestors" but I request
he tell us for sure, as it is his statement. If the one he cites is a
full-fledged seven generation *Ahnenreihe* for Eleanor of Aquitaine that
would be 127 Ancestors, plus Eleanor herself.
3. We have not seen a complete seven generation *Soixante-Quatre Quartiers
Ahnenreihe* for Eleanor of Aquitaine here on SGM, in my memory, which does
not in any way imply that one does not exist.
4. If Christian Settipani has evidence for such a marvelous find that has
been vetted and validated by scholars, I wish he would tell us more about
it. That would be marvelous!
> Neverthless this one, as D. S. Hines’,
>necessite some minor amendments. I have no time for a complete study, so
>I give only there some remarks in reviewing my future book on Aquitaine.
>I have marked with ‘*’ the corrections to D. S. Hines’ work. The items
>between ‘[ ]’ have to be deleted. Amelia, wife of Bernard de la Marche
>was not ‘de Montignac’ : this is an error of J. Depoin. ‘d’Angoulême’ is
>a guess of mine.
A guess based on what, kind sir?
> For Otte-Guillaume, you can see my paper ‘Les origines
>maternelles du comte de Bourgogne Otte-Guillaume’ in ‘Les Annales de
>Bourgogne’, 66 (1994), p. 5-63 (the response by H. de Chizelle, ibid.,
>68 (1996), p. 79-83 is largely unconvincing). Be cautious, all this
>ought to be checked.
All what "ought to be checked?" The response by H. de Chizelle alone, or
your own paper as well?
Doug Holmes
>3. It is so much better talking to the Organ Grinder directly, rather than
>to the Monkey.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>D. Spencer Hines
Whatever anyone says about you, good or bad, you surely have a way with
words...!!<g>
Doug
D. Spencer Hines
Alan B. Wilson <abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu>
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- William Jefferson Blythe III [Bill Clinton] President
of the United States --- Peccatoris Justificatio Absque Paenitentia, Legem
Destruit Moralem. "Clinton's an unusually good liar. Unusually good."
Senator Bob Kerrey [Democrat, Nebraska]
-----Original Message-----
From: ED MANN <EDL...@MAIL2.LCIA.COM>
To: D. Spencer Hines <shi...@worldnet.att.net>; Medieval Genealogy
Discussion List <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: *Trente-Deux Quartiers Ahnenreihe* for Eleanor of Aquitaine
[1122-1204] [Version 5.1]
>D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>
><and I edited - so sue me 8^)>
>
>> Here's the latest version of my humble little *trente-deux quartiers*
>> *Ahnenreihe* for Eleanor of Aquitaine.
>
>> 18. Robert I de Bourgogne Duc de Bourgogne was born in 1011. He died
on
>> 21 Mar 1076 in Fleury-sur-Ouche, Orne, Normandie, France. He was married
to
>> Ermengarde d'Anjou about 1048.
>>
>> 19. Ermengarde d'Anjou was born about 1018. She died on 18 Mar 1076 in
>> Fleury-sur-Ouche, Orne, Normandie, France.
>
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Reedpcgen
one should utterly trust in anyone's statement without citations, but he would
not TAKE THE TIME to have posted these comments unless he had good reason. It
was very kind of him to take the time to post these corrections.
I could answer many a question on this group extraordinarily thoroughly, but it
would take time to both (1) do the research in sources I know should be
checked, and (2) write it up to post to the group. I'm lucky to post what I
do, and just do it when I feel I can be of some help. Usually it's just what I
have here at home.
So please respect Mr. Settipani's statement that he does not have time to post
all the sources and explanations that would be necessary. Just say thank you
for his help, and do with what he sent as you would. There is no reason for
criticism.
If you knew the value of his opinion, it might actually inspire "enough
confidence to generate an immediate change" in your account.
pcr
D. Spencer Hines
Vide infra.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- William Jefferson Blythe III [Bill Clinton] President
of the United States --- Peccatoris Justificatio Absque Paenitentia, Legem
Destruit Moralem. "Clinton's an unusually good liar. Unusually good."
Senator Bob Kerrey [Democrat, Nebraska]
Reedpcgen wrote in message
<199809050358...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>Mr. Hines, with all due respect, Settipani himself is an authority. Not
that
>one should utterly trust in anyone's statement without citations, but he
would
>not TAKE THE TIME to have posted these comments unless he had good reason.
It
>was very kind of him to take the time to post these corrections.
Mr. pcr, with all due respect --- I understand your position.
Christian Settipani has written a book, which many people respect. That is
certainly to his credit and I congratulate him. That book, of course, has
no direct relevance to this instant case.
Surely, you understand that for me to accept your cautionary statement:
>So please respect Mr. Settipani's statement that he does not have time to
post
>all the sources and explanations that would be necessary. Just say thank
you
>for his help, and do with what he sent as you would. There is no reason
for
>criticism.
is totally unacceptable from a *scholarly* point of view.
I am building an Ancestor List that people should be able to look at 100 or
200 years from now. Would you have me say in my source list, "Christian
Settipani, who was a respected French Genealogist, in 1998, indicated that
these changes "must" be made. He stated that he did not have time to quote
his sources but assured me that he was correct." --- ?
Do you think such a statement would carry any weight or have any credence
with a sophisticated audience or would serve a long-term scholarly purpose?
In my humble opinion, we need to take such questions into consideration when
we consider the long term ramifications of what we write --- so as not to
confuse and confound those who come after us.
I have published a *Trente-Deux Quartiers Ahnenreihe* here on SGM for
Eleanor of Aquitaine. I have freely and frankly admitted that it is a Work
in Progress [WIP] and the product of many hands. It is certainly not a
finished opus.
But, would you have me cite as a reference for a projected change in that
document that Christian Settipani in a newsgroup post to SGM on 4 September
1998, indicated that:
>
>I could answer many a question on this group extraordinarily thoroughly,
but it
>would take time to both (1) do the research in sources I know should be
>checked, and (2) write it up to post to the group. I'm lucky to post what
I
>do, and just do it when I feel I can be of some help. Usually it's just
what I
>have here at home.
Or, would you have me deprive my readers downstream because you urge:
>
>So please respect Mr. Settipani's statement that he does not have time to
post
>all the sources and explanations that would be necessary. Just say thank
you
>for his help, and do with what he sent as you would. There is no reason
for
>criticism.
>
>If you knew the value of his opinion, it might actually inspire "enough
>confidence to generate an immediate change" in your account.
>
>pcr
>
So, No Sale, I'm afraid --- No Offense Taken, I Hope --- and I am quite
surprised that you would take such an indefensible and clearly erroneous
position.
Idiot Check:
1. I am not impugning, in any way the data that Christian Settipani has
provided and I thank him again for his time.
2. I am quite interested in more substantive details about the alleged 127
["128"] Ancestor *Ahnenreihe* of Eleanor of Aquitaine, which M. Settipani
has brought to our attention.
3. It is so much better talking to the Organ Grinder directly, rather than
to the Monkey.
Sincerely,
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Exitus Acta Probat
D. Spencer Hines
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- William Jefferson Blythe III [Bill Clinton] President
of the United States --- Peccatoris Justificatio Absque Paenitentia, Legem
Destruit Moralem. "Clinton's an unusually good liar. Unusually good."
Senator Bob Kerrey [Democrat, Nebraska]
SETTIPANI wrote in message <35F04C...@club-internet.fr>...
>For the genealogy of Alienor d’Aquitaine (her french name), there is a
>good table of her 128 ancestors by E. St-Phalle in ‘Heraldique and
>Genealogy’, 139 (1996), p. 172.
This covers *all* 127 of her ancestors for the preceding six generations,
i.e., a *Soixante-Quatre Quartiers?*
<kilosnip>
>[***48. Boso I de Chatellerault was born about 965. He died before
>1013. He was married to Amelie about 1010. = 94 ! !]
??? 1010-965 = 45. N'est-ce pas?
>[***49. Amelie was born about 970. She died after 1010 = 95 ! ! ]
??? 1010-970 = 40. N'est-ce pas?
>*54. Girard Borel, nobilissimus vir, son of a miles, vassal of Fulk
>Nerra 1026/1040. He died in 1046/8.
>*55. Oda, fl. 1026/1040.
Did you intend for Girard and Oda, supra, to be #56 and #57, [the parents of
Archambaud "Borel" --- Seigneur de l'Isle Bouchard --- #28] rather than #54
and #55, or not?
Thank you.
<snip>
>CS
Sincerely,
D. Spencer Hines
Fortem Posce Animum
Team Scudamore
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