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Early Herstmonceux additions and corrections
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janette...@talk21.com
Sep 11, 2015, 9:12:22 PM9/11/15
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I have some additions and possible corrections to suggest to the information presently available in Farrer HFK Vol 3 p375 passim and Keats-Rohan's Domesday Descendants p 590 regarding the early history of Herstmonceux in Sussex.
In short, these are that:
Ralf de Monceaux was probably related to the family of Yorks and Lincs, but not ancestrally, and was possibly sheriff or steward of Hastings Rape in 1148;
Idonea was de Monceaux by birth, and married firstly Walter de Herste and secondly Guy de Mortimer;
Ingelran de Monceaux of Sussex was second son of Walter de Herste and Idonea, brother to Waleran.
It is possible that I am reinventing the wheel here, and these have been discussed and accepted among the cognoscenti, or perhaps discussed and rebuffed by the same but I have been observing the group discussions over the years and do not recall seeing any reference to these points. John Ravilious' posts from 2003 to 27th August 2006 on the descent from Walter Fitz Other quote DD and Farrer in his attribution of Idonea as heiress of Juliana, wife of William of Hastings, and Ingelram as her husband; he requests any further input as welcome, so somewhat belatedly I am offering this.
I am well aware that this cuts through all received wisdom, but I have only recently had access to DD [ I eventually persuaded my local library to buy it last year] and having been heartened by its robust dismissal of Drew de Mouchy who married Edith de Warenne as ancestor of the Monceux family [similarly beloved by some genealogists but with which I had struggled with for years], I have decided to put this before the forum of the List. I hope that experienced posters will find some value in the work, which I have been mulling over for some 15 years, ever since I read the entry for Broomhill in VCH Sussex Vol. 9. [see below]. Perhaps if this were available on line, others would by now have picked up on the anomally.
Farrer's article itself is very muddled. His account of the de Monceux name fails to distinguish between the two places of origin noted by Keats-Rohan [DP p476] - William de Moncellis of 1086 came from Monceaux, Calvados, arr. and cant. Bayeux [now Monceaux -en-Bessin] while the later Alan de Moncellis came from Monchaux-Soreng, Seine-Maritime, arr. Neufchatel [DD p589]. This oversight has led Farrer to look for an ancestral link between William of 1086 in south-west England and the family settled in Sussex from the late 12th century. From the Sussex point of view, what is more interesting is the relationship that might be supposed to exist between the de Monceux family and Alvred de St Martin, with whom they dealt at Robertsbridge Abbey, and who was praepositura back home in Neufchatel-en-Bray.
Ralf de Monceux
DD: de Moncellis, Radulf
Pardoned Danegeld in Sussex in 1129. Possibly ancestor of the de Monceux family who first occur as tenants of the Counts of Aumale in Lincolnshire [Pipe Roll 31 Henry I, 72-ss]
Farrer:
In 1130 Ralph de Monceus was pardoned 20s 6d of Danegeld in Sussex. Wibert's holding of the count of Eu in 1086 was 9 hides and 1 virgate, of which the danegeld would be 18s 6d; one hide on the honour of Warenne would make the total danegeld 20s 6d.
Farrer's notes introduce the suggestion that in 1129/30 Ralf de Monceux was in possession of Wibert's 1086 holding.
Further information on Ralf de Monceux:
14th November 1148 he witnessed a charter of John Count of Eu and in the same month was addressed in terms that suggest he was acting in the role of sheriff of Hastings Rape:
John, count of Eu, to Ralph de Munceaus and all his men of the Rape of Hastings. I have restored to the church of Chichester and to Bishop Hylary the manor of Bixla, to be held of the King, and have seized him thereof. I order you to let him hold it. Farewell. [Nov 1148]
[Chichester Chartulary Liber Y nos 299 and 300; Sussex Record Society vol XLVI 1942-3]
Further information on the Monceaux family of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, some not mentioned in DD:
The reference given [Farrer, quoted by DD] for the various members of Alan and Maud's family, EYC i 456, is incorrect. It should read EYC i 546. 'Early Yorkshire Families' pp 61/62 [Charles Clay, 1973 Yorkshire Archaeological Society Record Series Vol 135/ C.U.P. Reprint 2013 Diana. E. Greenway ed ] states that Alan de Monceaux was given an interest in Boynton in East Yorkshire by Stephen Ct of Aumale before 1120-c1127 [EYC ii 1062].
1127-c1135 Alan, with the consent of his wife Maud and son and heir Robert, made a gift to the hospital of Bridlington, witnessed by Eustace, Ingelran, Gilbert and Alexander de Monceaux. [EYC iii1328].
1147-53 Alan gave the vill of Nun Cotham in Lincolnshire to the priory he had founded there, with the consent of Ingelran his son and heir. [EYCiii1329].
1148-1156 Eustace witnessed a charter to Rievaulx of Ralph de Neville. He held in Reighton of the fee of Aumale of Holderness [EYC ii 1209]
Alan was alive in 1161; Ingelran held one fee in Holderness in 1166.
1161-c 1175 Ingelran confirmed a gift of Henry Foliot to St Peters of York with the consent of Robert his son [EYC ii 682].
1166-80 Ingelran witnessed a charter of Alice de St Quentin at Immingham with Gilbert de Monceaux and his brother Alexander [EYC xi 96].He was succeeded by his son and heir Robert who occurs as a knight in 1207 and appears in a charter of 1208.
It seems unlikely that Ralph was the 'ancestor' of the Lincs/Yorkshire family since he and Alan were were both active in the middle years of the century, besides holding land in 1130 of different overlords and in very different areas, although that is hardly conclusive. It is however quite probable that they were related given the interaction of both branches with Alvred de St Martin as well as the occurrence of the given name Ingelran in both areas, although the name continued in use only in the northern family. I believe that there were at this time two Ingelrans de Monceux - one the son of Alan and Maud, and the other, a generation younger, the son of Idonea and probably Walter de Herste.
Suggested rewording of entry
de Moncellis, Radulf;
Pardoned danegeld of 20s 6d in Sussex 1129/30; witnessed a charter of John Count of Eu as an official of Hastings Rape 1148. Probably related to the de Monceux family who first occur as tenants of the Counts of Aumale in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire [Pipe Roll 31 Henry I, 72-ss; Chich. Chart. Liber Y nos 299 and 300]
Idonea de Herste/ de Moncellis
Keats Rohan in DD says under 'de Moncellis, Idonea':
Coheiress of Waleran father of John. Wife of Ingeran de Monceaux who claimed the inheritance of Juliana Doisnel, granddaughter of John fitz Waleran, in 1199 and mother of Waleran de Monceux of Herstmonceux, Sussex, who had succeeded by 1205.Pipe Roll 5 Henry II, 61-ss
Farrer comments [HFK Vol 3 Homour of Warenne, p375 passim]:
Possibly the wife of William de Monceaus was the Idonea de Herste who gave her land in Broomhill, Suss, and Kent, to Robertsbridge abbey, for which the monks gave her a mark of silver and to Robert her son a talent of gold. The editors of the British Museum Facsimiles of Charters 4 date this gift c. 1176-80.
It was confirmed by Idonea's son and heir Waleran de Herste, who on his seal was named Waleran de Monceaus.5
Another possibility suggested by this charter is that Idonea was the wife of Walter de Herste who attested a charter of 1176 with Robert his son.6
4. Op. cit. n. 61.
5. Campb. Chs. Xxv. 10.
6. Ibid. vi. 5 ;Facsimiles of Chs. n. 57.
Here Farrer conflates the Devon family with that of Sussex in his suggestion that William de Monceus, who held 1 fee of Oliver de Tracy in Devon in 1166, might have been Idonea's husband. His attribution [p376/7] of Ingelran son of Alan to the inheritance of Juliana Doisnel, and as father to Waleran, may be a similar instance; he may not have originated the connection, but he has been followed by many subsequent commentators.
Neither Keats-Rohan or Farrer refer to the fact that the pipe roll entry for 1159 [referenced by Keats-Rohan] shows Idonea de Moncellis paid 5 marks in the 'New' section. This is the equivalent to the fine for 2/3rds of a fee and would imply that she was either a widow, or an heiress.
If, as seems to be the case, it is generally considered, including by Keats-Rohan, that the Idonea de Moncellis of the pipe roll is the same lady as Idonea de Herste then we have an approximate birthdate for her of not after 1147, probably not after 1145. It is possible that she was married to a Monceux and widowed by 1159, but since she was alive in 1202 [see below], it seems far more likely that she was a Monceux by birth, inherited some land in 1159 [possibly on the death of Ralf de Monceux] and was the wife of Walter de Herste as suggested in passing by Farrer.
If the dating of the charter of 1176 referred to by Farrer is accurate, then Robert would probably have been born by 1162 as I believe 14 was considered the age for a son to attest his father's grant. Since Idonea's grants all relate to Broomhill, it is probable that this was part of her inheritance, or possibly her dowry land.
Idonea had remarried by c 1189. VCH Sussex Vol. Ix p149, Goldspur hundred, Broomhill, states:
'Other land in Broomhill was granted c. 1189 to Alfred de St Martin by Guy de Mortimer and Idonea his wife,13 who seems to have been Idonea de Herste 14, whose son Waleran de Herste, or de Monceux, granted all his holding of his fee in Broomhill to Robertsbridge Abbey,15 to whom it was confirmed by his son William.16
13 Add Chart 40790
14 Lord L'Isle and Dudley MSS.60
15 Ibid 45
16 Ibid 82
This would seem to be corroborated by the following claim of mort d'ancestor in 1230. Matthew de Morley was the heir of his uncle Bartholomew de Mortimer by 1226 [Complete Peerage, Morley p209, note g]. I have no link at present between Guy de Mortimer and this Bartholomew, but the inference is very strong.
213. Inter Mathm. de Morlay pet' et Willm. de Munceaus ten':--De quadraginta acris terre in Herste; unde assisa mortis antecessoris sum' fuit inter eos:--Maths. remisit &c.:--Pro. hoc fine Wills. dedit Matho. sexdecim marcas. Et sciendum quod si Maths. vel heredes sui aliquam cartam de predicta terra decetero protulerint pro nulla habeatur. [14° Henry III. Lewes Die Sci. Eadmundi. (File 8. No. 15).] From: 'Sussex Fines: 11-15 Henry III (nos. 202-268)', An abstract of Feet of Fines for the County of Sussex: vol. 1: 1190-1248 (1903), pp. 55-73
This second marriage would mean that the Ingelran de Monceux who claimed his inheritance in 1199 could not have been the husband of Idonea. She was still alive in c1202, as shown by this dated charter to Robertsbridge Abbey:
51 Idonia de Herst to Alured de St: Martin.
c 1202 Receipt for 6d. sterling rent issuing out of Promhelle, and rendered yearly by said Alured at Michaelmas for 13 years since the Coronation of King Richard. Witnesses: Sanson de Gestel:, Robert his son, Hugh de Londrefort, Alan de Londrefort, William de Bodiham, Michael de Munta, John de Turre, Walter de Petravill.
Seal oval, 2| inches. A draped female figure standing, holding in her right hand an ornamental cross, and on her left a bird. Legend, ' Sigillum Id . . . Herst.'
[Calendar of charters and documents relating to the Abbey of Robertsbridge co: Sussex : reserved at Penshurst among the muniments of lord De Lisle and Dudley [1873]]
Farrer comments 'There is some reason to suppose that Idonea and the ancestress of Warberton were coheirs of Herstmonceux' which is fair enough, since the Monceux and Warbleton families held 2 1/2 fees each in the 13th century, but he muddies the water by interposing the fact that Wibert's 1086 holding of 5 fees was still held as one unit in 1166 into a discussion of the holdings of John fitz Waleran, as though Herste and Warbleton were held by Juliana through inheritance from John fitz Waleran - which is not what the Domesday Book shows. If Idonea were the co-heiress of Juliana Doisnel and Ingelran her husband, Ingelran would only have been able to lodge the claim of inheritance in 1199 in right of his wife. If this were the case, it might be supposed that this basis of the claim would have been noted but the entry in the Rot. de Oblatis makes no mention of a claim through right of his wife, unlike the detailed description of land held by William fitz Audelin, given to him by the King on his marriage with Juliana Doisnel. Farrer reports the claim accurately, but does not spell out any inferred claim in right of his wife, contrary to what might be expected from following the references made by Keats-Rohan, and quoted by John Ravilious in 2003:
'In 1199 her heirs in both the land of John fitz Waleran and the marshal serjeanty held by Robert Doisnel were William of Warberton and Ingelran de Monceux, whose rights derived from his wife Idonea de Monceux'(Farrer, HKF iii, 376).
There is no doubt that Waleran who in 1205 succeeded Ingelran in the claim was Idonea's son [see above, Farrer]; the supposition must be that Ingelran was the second son of Idonea, Robert having died since 1176, and Waleran younger brother to both. Waleran succeeded in 1204/5; in 1212 he and William de Warbleton held 2 1/2 fees each in Sussex when Waleran's son William was holding Little Ongar in Essex by marshalcy as part of the inheritance. See VCH Cambs Vol 10 Teversham pp 173-178; ' Waleran de Monceaux, Ingram's successor and perhaps brother;'and VCH Essex Vol 4 Little Ongar pp168-174; 'Waleran de Monceux, who was probably brother and successor of Enguerrand'. It is interesing to note that the manor held in Teversham by William de Warbleton has retained the correct spelling as 'Warbletons' even though the contemporary scribes kept misspelling it as Warberton, Werbinton, or Warblington.
Suggested rewording of entry
de Moncellis, Idonea:
Paid 5 marks to the Crown in 1159 in Sussex, possibly as heiress of Ralf de Monceux. Probably wife of Walter de Herste; mother of Robert de Herste, probably Ingelran de Monceux, and Waleran de Herste or de Monceux, the two latter of which succesively claimed, as co-heirs with William de Warbleton, the inheritance of Juliana Doisnel, grand-daughter of John fitz Waleran and daughter of Juliana who married firstly William of Hastings, and secondly William fitz Audelin, father of the second Juliana. Married secondly, before c 1189, Guy de Mortimer, whose suggested heir Matthew de Morlay brought a claim of mort d'ancestor against Waleran's son William in 1230.Died in or after 1202.Pipe Roll 5 Henry II, 61-ss; Add Chart 40790; Lord L'Isle and Dudley MSS.60; Ibid 45.Campb. Chs. Xxv. 10.; Ibid. vi. ;Facsimiles of Chs. n. 57; Sussex Fines: 11-15 Henry III (File 8. No. 15)
Ingelran de Monceux
Ingelran seems to have been second but eldest surviving son of Alan and Maud [see above, Early Yorkshire Families; EYC ii1065]. As a witness to a charter in 1135 at the latest estimate [EYC iii1328], he must have been born in or before the 1120's, so he was probably already in his 40's when he was holding a fee in Holderness in 1166.
The Norman Roll shows that in 1180 Alvred de St Martin accounted for the bailliwick of Bray or Saint-Saens. In his accounts for that year appears a fine of £10 against the property of Turold de Moncell, who seems to have died in debt [mortui usur~]. In 1184 Alvred also held the ferme of Drincourt or Neufchatel-en-Bray, and was custodian of the castle of Drincourt. He accounted for £26 5s received from Engelran de Moncell 'that his judgement might be hastened'. In 1191 the pipe roll for Yorkshire shows that Engelran owed £49 16s 6d to the Treasury in payment of his debt to Aaron of Lincoln, who died in 1186; on Aaron's death Henry II seized his property as the escheat of a Jewish usurer.
It seems possible that Engelran's court case might have had something to do with an expected inheritance from Turold, and as is so often the case, he had run up debts on his expectations.
In DD Keats Rohan references Early Yorkshire Charters Vol 2 no 1062, p 370; no 1065 p371. Farrer says in his notes to charter 1062, 'In 1191, after the death of Aaron, the Jew of York, Ingeran de Munceux owed £55, 13s 4d to the crown for his debt to Aaron [Pipe roll 3Ric 1]'. This seems to be inaccurate. The entries in the Yorkshire accounts for 3Ric 1 read [p 285] 'Ingelrann de Muncels owes xlix li and xvi s and viiid [to Aaron] In th' 1m. And he owes xlix li and xl d. ie, he owed £49 16s 8d, he has paid 1mark and owes £49 40d. Under amerciaments, p294, 'Ingelrann' de Muncels owes 1/2 mark q n h q pl' [because 'non habemus' what he pledged]. The total of the two debts would be £49 10s.
It would appear also that the Aaron referred to must have been Aaron of Lincoln, who died in 1186; Aaron of York was the son of Josce of York, who died in anti-semitic riots in 1190 and who was an associate of Aaron of Lincoln,['The twelfth and thirteenth centuries: The Jewish community', in A History of the County of York: the City of York, ed. P M Tillott (London, 1961), pp. 47-49]
The reference Farrer gives in EYC for the inheritance claim -'ibid 255' is incorrect [it relates to a completely differenrt Juliana]; in HFK Vol 3 p 376 the correct reference R. de Obl. 19 is given. While Farrer dates charter no 1062 as '1182-1205' this end date presupposes that the Ingelran of the charter is the same as he of the inheritance. The latest gifts Farrer goes on to describe in the notes were, he says, made between 1182-1197. Charter no 1065 is given a dating of 1170-c1185. There seems to be no concrete evidence that Ingelran son of Alan was alive in 1199, and given his birth decade of the early 1120's it seems probable that he died shortly after 1191.
Ingelran probable son of Idonea did not long survive his relative, dying c 1204, in which year William de Warbleton put in a new claim for the whole inheritance.
Suggested rewording of entries
de Moncellis, Ingelran
Second but eldest surviving son of Alan de Monceux and Maud his wife,for whose souls he made a grant to Nun Cotham priory c 1152/75. Witnessed a gift to the hospital of Bridlington in 1127-c1135 made by Alan, with the consent of his [Alan's] wife Maud and son and heir Robert [EYC iii 1328]. 1147-53 Consented as son and heir of Alan to the gift made by Alan of the vill of Nun Cotham in Lincolnshire to the priory he had founded there [EYC iii 1329]. Held one fee in Holderness in 1166 [Early Yorkshire Families p 62, EYC iii 1305]. In 1161-c 1175 Ingelran confirmed a gift of Henry Foliot to St Peters of York with the consent of Robert his son [EYC ii 682]. 1166-80 Ingelran witnessed a charter of Alice de St Quentin at Immingham, with Gilbert de Monceaux and his brother Alexander [EYC xi 96]. 1170-1185 Ingelran witnessed a charter with his brother Alexander [EYC ii 1065] After 1182 he granted a charter to Guisborough Abbey as son of Alan and brother of Gilbert, who from the wording was probably dead at that time. In 1184 Alvred de St Martin held the ferme of Drincourt or Neufchatel-en-Bray, and accounted for £26 5s received from Engelran de Moncell 'that his judgement might be hastened'.In 1191 the pipe roll for Yorkshire [3Ric 1, p 285]shows that Engelran owed £49 16s 6d to the Treasury in payment of his debt to Aaron of Lincoln, who died in 1186. Ingelran was succeeded by his son Robert who occurs as a knight in 1207 and received a recognition of land in Ugthorpe in a charter of 1208 [Yorks Fines John p148]. Later members of the family are to be found in Carlisle, Cumbria, as well as Lincolnshire and Yorkshire.
de Moncellis, Ingelran.
Probably second but first surviving son of Idonea de Moncellis and Walter de Herste, brother to Robert, who died before 1199, and to Waleran, who succeeded him.In 1199, following the death of William Fitz Audelin without heirs from his second wife Juliana Doisnel, Ingelran and William de Warbleton lodged claims as the next heirs of this Juliana who was daughter of Juliana daughter of John fitz Waleran.
de Moncellis, Eustace [new entry]
Possible brother of Alan de Monceaux. In 1127-c1135 Eustace witnessed the gift to the hospital of Bridlington made by Alan de Monceaux, with the consent of his wife Maud and son and heir Robert, as second signatory, well above Ingelran, and he well before Gilbert and his brother Alexander.1148-1156 Eustace witnessed a charter to Rievaulx of Ralph de Neville. He held in Reighton of the fee of Aumale of Holderness [EYC ii 1209]
Other points of interest
I also have other observations on the Monceux family of Sussex that fall outside the remit of DD, including a closer approximate death date for Waleran, son of William, and the name of the wife of John de Monceux [d 1301], son of Waleran and father of John de Monceux who married Olimpias.
1]Charter from Robertsbridge Abbey indicating the interchangeability of the Herste and Monceux surnames
103 William de Munceus, son of Waleran de Herste, to the Abbey.
Grant, in frankalmoign, of all his tenement in Promhelle which his father gave him, subject to the only service of 6d. yearly at Michaelmas. Witnesses: Simon de Sumeri, Oliver de Westifeld, Laurence de Mundifeld, Robert de Basoches, Helyas Folet, Alan son of Robert, Ralph de Feme.
Seal round, 2\ inches. A knight on horse, with helmet and shield ; on the latter a bend. Legend, ' Sigillum Wilelmi de M. . . .'
2] Waleran son of William de Monceux.
There is no death date available for Waleran; Farrer says' he was apparently living in 1281'; a charter from Robertsbridge Abbey shows that he was dead in 1293 as his son John witnessed in company with the other local large landholders.
282 20 Aug 1293 John de Bogeselle to the Abbey.
Release, in frankalmoign, of all his right in the field called Stonipettefeld which is adjacent to the road leading from Robertsbridge to the Abbey, quit of all service. Dated at the Abbey of Robertsbridge on St: Laurence's day 1293, 21 E. i. Witnesses : Lord William de Echingeham, William de Hastings, John de Munceus, Robert de Burgherse, Robert de Passelegh, Henry Wardedeu, knights, Simon de Echingham, John de Ore, Reginald de Tiresherse, Simon de Lonsforde, Edmund de Passelegh, John de Suntyng, Adam de Hochamme, William de Ferryng.
Seal round, i^ inch. An eagle displayed, its head being between a crescent and a star. Legend, 'S:Johan:fil .... armoron. '
3] John d 1301, son of Waleran
VCH Hants Compton Monceaux states: On the death of Waleran the manor passed to his son John, who died in 1301, leaving a son and heir John. [Inq. p.m. 30 Edw. I, no. 47; Abbrev. Rot. Orig. (Rec. Com.), i, 123.] This John in 1303 settled the manor in default of his own issue on his brother Waleran in fee-tail, with contingent remainder to his sister Margaret, [Feet of F. Hants, Mich. 32 Edw. I] and died in 1316, when all his possessions passed to his son and namesake. [Inq. p.m. 10 Edw. II, no. 36] John Monceux died young without issue, and his sister Maud, who inherited his estates, carried them into the family of Fiennes by her marriage with Sir John de Fiennes. [Suss. Arch. Coll. iv, 135]
No name has been available for the wife of this first John [d 1301] but a charter shows that the mother of the second John [d 1316], his heir, was Albreda.
Grant and quitclaim for £50 amsg/AMS5592/110 17 Jan 1303 These documents are held at East Sussex Record Office Former reference: AMS 5592/110
John de Monceaus to William de Echingham, kt; 1] manor of Compton Monceux (Cumbton) in Hampshire, with the homages, rents, customs, services, liberties, escheats, all the bondmen of the manor with their suits, sequels, goods and chattels, lands and tenements, and all his other rights, lands and tenements in Hampshire; 2] his right in all the lands and tenements held of him in dower by his mother Albreda
Witnesses: Robert de Passelegh, kt, Baldwin de Stowe, kt, John de Ore, Edmund de Passelegh, Oliver de Cressy, John de Coding, Richard de Coding, Henry de Sharndenne, all of Sussex; John de Ferlington, kt, Nicholas Trenchefoil, John de Cumbton, Thomas atte Melle, Nicholas atte Mershe, Henry de Durne, all of Hampshire; at Herstmonceux (Hurst) green seal; a squirrel; star symbol
I hope the all of the above is straightforward in its premises, and finds favour amongst those who are much more experienced than I in these matters. I should be glad to receive your comments.
Janette
In short, these are that:
Ralf de Monceaux was probably related to the family of Yorks and Lincs, but not ancestrally, and was possibly sheriff or steward of Hastings Rape in 1148;
Idonea was de Monceaux by birth, and married firstly Walter de Herste and secondly Guy de Mortimer;
Ingelran de Monceaux of Sussex was second son of Walter de Herste and Idonea, brother to Waleran.
It is possible that I am reinventing the wheel here, and these have been discussed and accepted among the cognoscenti, or perhaps discussed and rebuffed by the same but I have been observing the group discussions over the years and do not recall seeing any reference to these points. John Ravilious' posts from 2003 to 27th August 2006 on the descent from Walter Fitz Other quote DD and Farrer in his attribution of Idonea as heiress of Juliana, wife of William of Hastings, and Ingelram as her husband; he requests any further input as welcome, so somewhat belatedly I am offering this.
I am well aware that this cuts through all received wisdom, but I have only recently had access to DD [ I eventually persuaded my local library to buy it last year] and having been heartened by its robust dismissal of Drew de Mouchy who married Edith de Warenne as ancestor of the Monceux family [similarly beloved by some genealogists but with which I had struggled with for years], I have decided to put this before the forum of the List. I hope that experienced posters will find some value in the work, which I have been mulling over for some 15 years, ever since I read the entry for Broomhill in VCH Sussex Vol. 9. [see below]. Perhaps if this were available on line, others would by now have picked up on the anomally.
Farrer's article itself is very muddled. His account of the de Monceux name fails to distinguish between the two places of origin noted by Keats-Rohan [DP p476] - William de Moncellis of 1086 came from Monceaux, Calvados, arr. and cant. Bayeux [now Monceaux -en-Bessin] while the later Alan de Moncellis came from Monchaux-Soreng, Seine-Maritime, arr. Neufchatel [DD p589]. This oversight has led Farrer to look for an ancestral link between William of 1086 in south-west England and the family settled in Sussex from the late 12th century. From the Sussex point of view, what is more interesting is the relationship that might be supposed to exist between the de Monceux family and Alvred de St Martin, with whom they dealt at Robertsbridge Abbey, and who was praepositura back home in Neufchatel-en-Bray.
Ralf de Monceux
DD: de Moncellis, Radulf
Pardoned Danegeld in Sussex in 1129. Possibly ancestor of the de Monceux family who first occur as tenants of the Counts of Aumale in Lincolnshire [Pipe Roll 31 Henry I, 72-ss]
Farrer:
In 1130 Ralph de Monceus was pardoned 20s 6d of Danegeld in Sussex. Wibert's holding of the count of Eu in 1086 was 9 hides and 1 virgate, of which the danegeld would be 18s 6d; one hide on the honour of Warenne would make the total danegeld 20s 6d.
Farrer's notes introduce the suggestion that in 1129/30 Ralf de Monceux was in possession of Wibert's 1086 holding.
Further information on Ralf de Monceux:
14th November 1148 he witnessed a charter of John Count of Eu and in the same month was addressed in terms that suggest he was acting in the role of sheriff of Hastings Rape:
John, count of Eu, to Ralph de Munceaus and all his men of the Rape of Hastings. I have restored to the church of Chichester and to Bishop Hylary the manor of Bixla, to be held of the King, and have seized him thereof. I order you to let him hold it. Farewell. [Nov 1148]
[Chichester Chartulary Liber Y nos 299 and 300; Sussex Record Society vol XLVI 1942-3]
Further information on the Monceaux family of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, some not mentioned in DD:
The reference given [Farrer, quoted by DD] for the various members of Alan and Maud's family, EYC i 456, is incorrect. It should read EYC i 546. 'Early Yorkshire Families' pp 61/62 [Charles Clay, 1973 Yorkshire Archaeological Society Record Series Vol 135/ C.U.P. Reprint 2013 Diana. E. Greenway ed ] states that Alan de Monceaux was given an interest in Boynton in East Yorkshire by Stephen Ct of Aumale before 1120-c1127 [EYC ii 1062].
1127-c1135 Alan, with the consent of his wife Maud and son and heir Robert, made a gift to the hospital of Bridlington, witnessed by Eustace, Ingelran, Gilbert and Alexander de Monceaux. [EYC iii1328].
1147-53 Alan gave the vill of Nun Cotham in Lincolnshire to the priory he had founded there, with the consent of Ingelran his son and heir. [EYCiii1329].
1148-1156 Eustace witnessed a charter to Rievaulx of Ralph de Neville. He held in Reighton of the fee of Aumale of Holderness [EYC ii 1209]
Alan was alive in 1161; Ingelran held one fee in Holderness in 1166.
1161-c 1175 Ingelran confirmed a gift of Henry Foliot to St Peters of York with the consent of Robert his son [EYC ii 682].
1166-80 Ingelran witnessed a charter of Alice de St Quentin at Immingham with Gilbert de Monceaux and his brother Alexander [EYC xi 96].He was succeeded by his son and heir Robert who occurs as a knight in 1207 and appears in a charter of 1208.
It seems unlikely that Ralph was the 'ancestor' of the Lincs/Yorkshire family since he and Alan were were both active in the middle years of the century, besides holding land in 1130 of different overlords and in very different areas, although that is hardly conclusive. It is however quite probable that they were related given the interaction of both branches with Alvred de St Martin as well as the occurrence of the given name Ingelran in both areas, although the name continued in use only in the northern family. I believe that there were at this time two Ingelrans de Monceux - one the son of Alan and Maud, and the other, a generation younger, the son of Idonea and probably Walter de Herste.
Suggested rewording of entry
de Moncellis, Radulf;
Pardoned danegeld of 20s 6d in Sussex 1129/30; witnessed a charter of John Count of Eu as an official of Hastings Rape 1148. Probably related to the de Monceux family who first occur as tenants of the Counts of Aumale in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire [Pipe Roll 31 Henry I, 72-ss; Chich. Chart. Liber Y nos 299 and 300]
Idonea de Herste/ de Moncellis
Keats Rohan in DD says under 'de Moncellis, Idonea':
Coheiress of Waleran father of John. Wife of Ingeran de Monceaux who claimed the inheritance of Juliana Doisnel, granddaughter of John fitz Waleran, in 1199 and mother of Waleran de Monceux of Herstmonceux, Sussex, who had succeeded by 1205.Pipe Roll 5 Henry II, 61-ss
Farrer comments [HFK Vol 3 Homour of Warenne, p375 passim]:
Possibly the wife of William de Monceaus was the Idonea de Herste who gave her land in Broomhill, Suss, and Kent, to Robertsbridge abbey, for which the monks gave her a mark of silver and to Robert her son a talent of gold. The editors of the British Museum Facsimiles of Charters 4 date this gift c. 1176-80.
It was confirmed by Idonea's son and heir Waleran de Herste, who on his seal was named Waleran de Monceaus.5
Another possibility suggested by this charter is that Idonea was the wife of Walter de Herste who attested a charter of 1176 with Robert his son.6
4. Op. cit. n. 61.
5. Campb. Chs. Xxv. 10.
6. Ibid. vi. 5 ;Facsimiles of Chs. n. 57.
Here Farrer conflates the Devon family with that of Sussex in his suggestion that William de Monceus, who held 1 fee of Oliver de Tracy in Devon in 1166, might have been Idonea's husband. His attribution [p376/7] of Ingelran son of Alan to the inheritance of Juliana Doisnel, and as father to Waleran, may be a similar instance; he may not have originated the connection, but he has been followed by many subsequent commentators.
Neither Keats-Rohan or Farrer refer to the fact that the pipe roll entry for 1159 [referenced by Keats-Rohan] shows Idonea de Moncellis paid 5 marks in the 'New' section. This is the equivalent to the fine for 2/3rds of a fee and would imply that she was either a widow, or an heiress.
If, as seems to be the case, it is generally considered, including by Keats-Rohan, that the Idonea de Moncellis of the pipe roll is the same lady as Idonea de Herste then we have an approximate birthdate for her of not after 1147, probably not after 1145. It is possible that she was married to a Monceux and widowed by 1159, but since she was alive in 1202 [see below], it seems far more likely that she was a Monceux by birth, inherited some land in 1159 [possibly on the death of Ralf de Monceux] and was the wife of Walter de Herste as suggested in passing by Farrer.
If the dating of the charter of 1176 referred to by Farrer is accurate, then Robert would probably have been born by 1162 as I believe 14 was considered the age for a son to attest his father's grant. Since Idonea's grants all relate to Broomhill, it is probable that this was part of her inheritance, or possibly her dowry land.
Idonea had remarried by c 1189. VCH Sussex Vol. Ix p149, Goldspur hundred, Broomhill, states:
'Other land in Broomhill was granted c. 1189 to Alfred de St Martin by Guy de Mortimer and Idonea his wife,13 who seems to have been Idonea de Herste 14, whose son Waleran de Herste, or de Monceux, granted all his holding of his fee in Broomhill to Robertsbridge Abbey,15 to whom it was confirmed by his son William.16
13 Add Chart 40790
14 Lord L'Isle and Dudley MSS.60
15 Ibid 45
16 Ibid 82
This would seem to be corroborated by the following claim of mort d'ancestor in 1230. Matthew de Morley was the heir of his uncle Bartholomew de Mortimer by 1226 [Complete Peerage, Morley p209, note g]. I have no link at present between Guy de Mortimer and this Bartholomew, but the inference is very strong.
213. Inter Mathm. de Morlay pet' et Willm. de Munceaus ten':--De quadraginta acris terre in Herste; unde assisa mortis antecessoris sum' fuit inter eos:--Maths. remisit &c.:--Pro. hoc fine Wills. dedit Matho. sexdecim marcas. Et sciendum quod si Maths. vel heredes sui aliquam cartam de predicta terra decetero protulerint pro nulla habeatur. [14° Henry III. Lewes Die Sci. Eadmundi. (File 8. No. 15).] From: 'Sussex Fines: 11-15 Henry III (nos. 202-268)', An abstract of Feet of Fines for the County of Sussex: vol. 1: 1190-1248 (1903), pp. 55-73
This second marriage would mean that the Ingelran de Monceux who claimed his inheritance in 1199 could not have been the husband of Idonea. She was still alive in c1202, as shown by this dated charter to Robertsbridge Abbey:
51 Idonia de Herst to Alured de St: Martin.
c 1202 Receipt for 6d. sterling rent issuing out of Promhelle, and rendered yearly by said Alured at Michaelmas for 13 years since the Coronation of King Richard. Witnesses: Sanson de Gestel:, Robert his son, Hugh de Londrefort, Alan de Londrefort, William de Bodiham, Michael de Munta, John de Turre, Walter de Petravill.
Seal oval, 2| inches. A draped female figure standing, holding in her right hand an ornamental cross, and on her left a bird. Legend, ' Sigillum Id . . . Herst.'
[Calendar of charters and documents relating to the Abbey of Robertsbridge co: Sussex : reserved at Penshurst among the muniments of lord De Lisle and Dudley [1873]]
Farrer comments 'There is some reason to suppose that Idonea and the ancestress of Warberton were coheirs of Herstmonceux' which is fair enough, since the Monceux and Warbleton families held 2 1/2 fees each in the 13th century, but he muddies the water by interposing the fact that Wibert's 1086 holding of 5 fees was still held as one unit in 1166 into a discussion of the holdings of John fitz Waleran, as though Herste and Warbleton were held by Juliana through inheritance from John fitz Waleran - which is not what the Domesday Book shows. If Idonea were the co-heiress of Juliana Doisnel and Ingelran her husband, Ingelran would only have been able to lodge the claim of inheritance in 1199 in right of his wife. If this were the case, it might be supposed that this basis of the claim would have been noted but the entry in the Rot. de Oblatis makes no mention of a claim through right of his wife, unlike the detailed description of land held by William fitz Audelin, given to him by the King on his marriage with Juliana Doisnel. Farrer reports the claim accurately, but does not spell out any inferred claim in right of his wife, contrary to what might be expected from following the references made by Keats-Rohan, and quoted by John Ravilious in 2003:
'In 1199 her heirs in both the land of John fitz Waleran and the marshal serjeanty held by Robert Doisnel were William of Warberton and Ingelran de Monceux, whose rights derived from his wife Idonea de Monceux'(Farrer, HKF iii, 376).
There is no doubt that Waleran who in 1205 succeeded Ingelran in the claim was Idonea's son [see above, Farrer]; the supposition must be that Ingelran was the second son of Idonea, Robert having died since 1176, and Waleran younger brother to both. Waleran succeeded in 1204/5; in 1212 he and William de Warbleton held 2 1/2 fees each in Sussex when Waleran's son William was holding Little Ongar in Essex by marshalcy as part of the inheritance. See VCH Cambs Vol 10 Teversham pp 173-178; ' Waleran de Monceaux, Ingram's successor and perhaps brother;'and VCH Essex Vol 4 Little Ongar pp168-174; 'Waleran de Monceux, who was probably brother and successor of Enguerrand'. It is interesing to note that the manor held in Teversham by William de Warbleton has retained the correct spelling as 'Warbletons' even though the contemporary scribes kept misspelling it as Warberton, Werbinton, or Warblington.
Suggested rewording of entry
de Moncellis, Idonea:
Paid 5 marks to the Crown in 1159 in Sussex, possibly as heiress of Ralf de Monceux. Probably wife of Walter de Herste; mother of Robert de Herste, probably Ingelran de Monceux, and Waleran de Herste or de Monceux, the two latter of which succesively claimed, as co-heirs with William de Warbleton, the inheritance of Juliana Doisnel, grand-daughter of John fitz Waleran and daughter of Juliana who married firstly William of Hastings, and secondly William fitz Audelin, father of the second Juliana. Married secondly, before c 1189, Guy de Mortimer, whose suggested heir Matthew de Morlay brought a claim of mort d'ancestor against Waleran's son William in 1230.Died in or after 1202.Pipe Roll 5 Henry II, 61-ss; Add Chart 40790; Lord L'Isle and Dudley MSS.60; Ibid 45.Campb. Chs. Xxv. 10.; Ibid. vi. ;Facsimiles of Chs. n. 57; Sussex Fines: 11-15 Henry III (File 8. No. 15)
Ingelran de Monceux
Ingelran seems to have been second but eldest surviving son of Alan and Maud [see above, Early Yorkshire Families; EYC ii1065]. As a witness to a charter in 1135 at the latest estimate [EYC iii1328], he must have been born in or before the 1120's, so he was probably already in his 40's when he was holding a fee in Holderness in 1166.
The Norman Roll shows that in 1180 Alvred de St Martin accounted for the bailliwick of Bray or Saint-Saens. In his accounts for that year appears a fine of £10 against the property of Turold de Moncell, who seems to have died in debt [mortui usur~]. In 1184 Alvred also held the ferme of Drincourt or Neufchatel-en-Bray, and was custodian of the castle of Drincourt. He accounted for £26 5s received from Engelran de Moncell 'that his judgement might be hastened'. In 1191 the pipe roll for Yorkshire shows that Engelran owed £49 16s 6d to the Treasury in payment of his debt to Aaron of Lincoln, who died in 1186; on Aaron's death Henry II seized his property as the escheat of a Jewish usurer.
It seems possible that Engelran's court case might have had something to do with an expected inheritance from Turold, and as is so often the case, he had run up debts on his expectations.
In DD Keats Rohan references Early Yorkshire Charters Vol 2 no 1062, p 370; no 1065 p371. Farrer says in his notes to charter 1062, 'In 1191, after the death of Aaron, the Jew of York, Ingeran de Munceux owed £55, 13s 4d to the crown for his debt to Aaron [Pipe roll 3Ric 1]'. This seems to be inaccurate. The entries in the Yorkshire accounts for 3Ric 1 read [p 285] 'Ingelrann de Muncels owes xlix li and xvi s and viiid [to Aaron] In th' 1m. And he owes xlix li and xl d. ie, he owed £49 16s 8d, he has paid 1mark and owes £49 40d. Under amerciaments, p294, 'Ingelrann' de Muncels owes 1/2 mark q n h q pl' [because 'non habemus' what he pledged]. The total of the two debts would be £49 10s.
It would appear also that the Aaron referred to must have been Aaron of Lincoln, who died in 1186; Aaron of York was the son of Josce of York, who died in anti-semitic riots in 1190 and who was an associate of Aaron of Lincoln,['The twelfth and thirteenth centuries: The Jewish community', in A History of the County of York: the City of York, ed. P M Tillott (London, 1961), pp. 47-49]
The reference Farrer gives in EYC for the inheritance claim -'ibid 255' is incorrect [it relates to a completely differenrt Juliana]; in HFK Vol 3 p 376 the correct reference R. de Obl. 19 is given. While Farrer dates charter no 1062 as '1182-1205' this end date presupposes that the Ingelran of the charter is the same as he of the inheritance. The latest gifts Farrer goes on to describe in the notes were, he says, made between 1182-1197. Charter no 1065 is given a dating of 1170-c1185. There seems to be no concrete evidence that Ingelran son of Alan was alive in 1199, and given his birth decade of the early 1120's it seems probable that he died shortly after 1191.
Ingelran probable son of Idonea did not long survive his relative, dying c 1204, in which year William de Warbleton put in a new claim for the whole inheritance.
Suggested rewording of entries
de Moncellis, Ingelran
Second but eldest surviving son of Alan de Monceux and Maud his wife,for whose souls he made a grant to Nun Cotham priory c 1152/75. Witnessed a gift to the hospital of Bridlington in 1127-c1135 made by Alan, with the consent of his [Alan's] wife Maud and son and heir Robert [EYC iii 1328]. 1147-53 Consented as son and heir of Alan to the gift made by Alan of the vill of Nun Cotham in Lincolnshire to the priory he had founded there [EYC iii 1329]. Held one fee in Holderness in 1166 [Early Yorkshire Families p 62, EYC iii 1305]. In 1161-c 1175 Ingelran confirmed a gift of Henry Foliot to St Peters of York with the consent of Robert his son [EYC ii 682]. 1166-80 Ingelran witnessed a charter of Alice de St Quentin at Immingham, with Gilbert de Monceaux and his brother Alexander [EYC xi 96]. 1170-1185 Ingelran witnessed a charter with his brother Alexander [EYC ii 1065] After 1182 he granted a charter to Guisborough Abbey as son of Alan and brother of Gilbert, who from the wording was probably dead at that time. In 1184 Alvred de St Martin held the ferme of Drincourt or Neufchatel-en-Bray, and accounted for £26 5s received from Engelran de Moncell 'that his judgement might be hastened'.In 1191 the pipe roll for Yorkshire [3Ric 1, p 285]shows that Engelran owed £49 16s 6d to the Treasury in payment of his debt to Aaron of Lincoln, who died in 1186. Ingelran was succeeded by his son Robert who occurs as a knight in 1207 and received a recognition of land in Ugthorpe in a charter of 1208 [Yorks Fines John p148]. Later members of the family are to be found in Carlisle, Cumbria, as well as Lincolnshire and Yorkshire.
de Moncellis, Ingelran.
Probably second but first surviving son of Idonea de Moncellis and Walter de Herste, brother to Robert, who died before 1199, and to Waleran, who succeeded him.In 1199, following the death of William Fitz Audelin without heirs from his second wife Juliana Doisnel, Ingelran and William de Warbleton lodged claims as the next heirs of this Juliana who was daughter of Juliana daughter of John fitz Waleran.
de Moncellis, Eustace [new entry]
Possible brother of Alan de Monceaux. In 1127-c1135 Eustace witnessed the gift to the hospital of Bridlington made by Alan de Monceaux, with the consent of his wife Maud and son and heir Robert, as second signatory, well above Ingelran, and he well before Gilbert and his brother Alexander.1148-1156 Eustace witnessed a charter to Rievaulx of Ralph de Neville. He held in Reighton of the fee of Aumale of Holderness [EYC ii 1209]
Other points of interest
I also have other observations on the Monceux family of Sussex that fall outside the remit of DD, including a closer approximate death date for Waleran, son of William, and the name of the wife of John de Monceux [d 1301], son of Waleran and father of John de Monceux who married Olimpias.
1]Charter from Robertsbridge Abbey indicating the interchangeability of the Herste and Monceux surnames
103 William de Munceus, son of Waleran de Herste, to the Abbey.
Grant, in frankalmoign, of all his tenement in Promhelle which his father gave him, subject to the only service of 6d. yearly at Michaelmas. Witnesses: Simon de Sumeri, Oliver de Westifeld, Laurence de Mundifeld, Robert de Basoches, Helyas Folet, Alan son of Robert, Ralph de Feme.
Seal round, 2\ inches. A knight on horse, with helmet and shield ; on the latter a bend. Legend, ' Sigillum Wilelmi de M. . . .'
2] Waleran son of William de Monceux.
There is no death date available for Waleran; Farrer says' he was apparently living in 1281'; a charter from Robertsbridge Abbey shows that he was dead in 1293 as his son John witnessed in company with the other local large landholders.
282 20 Aug 1293 John de Bogeselle to the Abbey.
Release, in frankalmoign, of all his right in the field called Stonipettefeld which is adjacent to the road leading from Robertsbridge to the Abbey, quit of all service. Dated at the Abbey of Robertsbridge on St: Laurence's day 1293, 21 E. i. Witnesses : Lord William de Echingeham, William de Hastings, John de Munceus, Robert de Burgherse, Robert de Passelegh, Henry Wardedeu, knights, Simon de Echingham, John de Ore, Reginald de Tiresherse, Simon de Lonsforde, Edmund de Passelegh, John de Suntyng, Adam de Hochamme, William de Ferryng.
Seal round, i^ inch. An eagle displayed, its head being between a crescent and a star. Legend, 'S:Johan:fil .... armoron. '
3] John d 1301, son of Waleran
VCH Hants Compton Monceaux states: On the death of Waleran the manor passed to his son John, who died in 1301, leaving a son and heir John. [Inq. p.m. 30 Edw. I, no. 47; Abbrev. Rot. Orig. (Rec. Com.), i, 123.] This John in 1303 settled the manor in default of his own issue on his brother Waleran in fee-tail, with contingent remainder to his sister Margaret, [Feet of F. Hants, Mich. 32 Edw. I] and died in 1316, when all his possessions passed to his son and namesake. [Inq. p.m. 10 Edw. II, no. 36] John Monceux died young without issue, and his sister Maud, who inherited his estates, carried them into the family of Fiennes by her marriage with Sir John de Fiennes. [Suss. Arch. Coll. iv, 135]
No name has been available for the wife of this first John [d 1301] but a charter shows that the mother of the second John [d 1316], his heir, was Albreda.
Grant and quitclaim for £50 amsg/AMS5592/110 17 Jan 1303 These documents are held at East Sussex Record Office Former reference: AMS 5592/110
John de Monceaus to William de Echingham, kt; 1] manor of Compton Monceux (Cumbton) in Hampshire, with the homages, rents, customs, services, liberties, escheats, all the bondmen of the manor with their suits, sequels, goods and chattels, lands and tenements, and all his other rights, lands and tenements in Hampshire; 2] his right in all the lands and tenements held of him in dower by his mother Albreda
Witnesses: Robert de Passelegh, kt, Baldwin de Stowe, kt, John de Ore, Edmund de Passelegh, Oliver de Cressy, John de Coding, Richard de Coding, Henry de Sharndenne, all of Sussex; John de Ferlington, kt, Nicholas Trenchefoil, John de Cumbton, Thomas atte Melle, Nicholas atte Mershe, Henry de Durne, all of Hampshire; at Herstmonceux (Hurst) green seal; a squirrel; star symbol
I hope the all of the above is straightforward in its premises, and finds favour amongst those who are much more experienced than I in these matters. I should be glad to receive your comments.
Janette
janette...@talk21.com
Sep 14, 2015, 2:13:13 PM9/14/15
to
In my suggested rewording of the entry for Idonea de Moncellis, I wrote that the first husband of Juliana daughter of John Fitz Waleran was William of Hastings. This should have read William DE Hastings. Sorry.
janette...@talk21.com
Sep 16, 2015, 10:23:16 PM9/16/15
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For all those kind enough to take an interest in this topic, I would ask you to ignore the brief aside about the spelling of Warbleton. This was occasioned by the recent discovery of the Cambridgeshire manor of that name, but Warbleton has only been settled in that spelling in fairly recent times, deriving from Warborgetone in 1086. I have over the years had some difficulty in tracking the owners of the manor, spending much time investigating Warblington in Hampshire as well as Walberton in West Sussex.It is for this reason that I refer to the family throughout as 'de Warbleton', for clarity, rather than use one of the contemporary versions I referred to in the text.
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