de Weyland of Blaxhall and Pettaugh, Suffolk
The...@aol.com
Dear Douglas, Chris, Rosie, Cris, Kay, et al.,
In prior threads on SGM, there have been discussions and evidence
presented concerning the relationships (known and theoretical) and
lands held by the Weyland family of Blaxhall, Suffolk & c. [1].
There are a number of possible connections to the d'Ufford, de
Mortimer (Essex) and de Clifton families, but to date none of these
have been substantiated.
Additional information has been found in the 'Knights of Edward I'
of the Harleian Soc. publication series [2] which does provide an
additional connection, and a change in the family structure as
previously put forward [3]. The portions of the text relevant to
these changes are as follows:
Under 'Sir Thomas de Weyland, Kt.' [4]:
'Grant of wardship of lands late of Jn. de Nevyll at Lengham
in minority of heir 4 Feb. (F.R.), and marriage of his s.h.
Hugh de N. 16 Dec. 1283.'
'He held lands at Monecweden, with Manors of Brandeston,
Blaxhale, and (to him, his w. Margery, and his s. Ric. and
heirs of Ric.) Ayss, rents at Cleydon, Hedenham Manor, lands
at Lit. Turrock and Chaldewell, and for life Gravesend Manor
in Kent (Inq. 15 May 1290). He, Margery, and their s. Ric.
and d. Eleanor had been enfeoffed of certain lands, which
now fall to Margery and Ric., Margery and Eleanor,
respectively, 14 Jy..... Margery de Moese, wid. of Thos. de
W., is dead 26 June 1324. Their d. Eleanor left s. h.
Jn. de Neville, 11 June 1331 (Inq.).'
Under 'Sr John de Weyland, Kt.' [5]:
'Elder s. of the last by his former w. Ann. Thos. de Welond
enfeoffed his s. John of Balycannan and Killocheran Manors,
with rent of Balymackoye, in Ireland, for 100 m. to be paid
to him for life.'
'Restoration to him, s.h. of Ann, late w. of Thos. de W.,
L~10 rent at Pethagh, as Ric. de Colevill, sen., gave it
with his d. Ann to Thos. de W., ...'
'He holds 1/2 Kt. Fee at Eystan ad Turrim and 1/4 Fee at
Weylond, Suff., late of Matt. de Lovayn, 20 May,....1302..'
The family is then reconstructed as follows (a more detailed 5
generation report follows at the end of this post):
Richard de John de Weyland = Mary Thomas de Moese
Colevill d. 1274 I I
'senior' I I
______I________ I I
I I I I
Richard 1) Ann de Colevill = Sir Thomas de = 2) Margaret
'junior' I Weyland I de Moese
__________________I _____I________
_______I________________ I I
I I I I
William Sir John Richard Eleanor
de Weyland de Weyland de Weyland = Hugh de
of Brandeston of Blaxhall dsp ca 1308 Neville
I d. bef 30 Oct = Juliana de I
I 1312 Sandwich I
V = Mary de Braose V
I
I
Sir Richard = Joan
of Blaxhall I
d. bef 10 Apr I
1319 I
I
Cecily = Sir Bartholomew de
I Burghersh (d. 1369)
I
V
This modifies the known ancestry of several 17th century emigrants
to America, 20th century emigrants to New Zealand and a good many
others who have not yet emigrated (Queen Elizabeth II, for one).
Hope this is helpful. Any further documentation, comment or
criticism is welcome as always.
Good luck and good hunting,
John *
NOTES
[1] See SGM threads, including <de Weyland, an Irish Connection (?) :
Chipping
Sodbury, co. Glocs.> [May 2002]; and <Re: Cecily Weyland's Possble
Kinship
to Katherine Clifton> [Apr 2002].
[2] Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev. Charles Moor, D.D., F.S.A. Publications of
the Harleian Society, Vols. 1-5 (series vols. 80-84), 1929-1930.
[3] The family structure previously indicated a single wife, Margaret de
Moese,
of Sir Thomas de Weyland as the mother of his sons William, John and
Richard.
[4] Knights of Edward I, V:184-5.
[5] Knights of Edward I, V:185-6.
__________________________________
1 Sir John de Weyland
----------------------------------------
Death: 1274[1]
Father: Sir Nicholas de Weyland
of Brandeston and Westerfield, co. Suffolk
'Sir John de Weyland', had a grant of the manor of Brandeston, Suffolk in
1259:
'This manor [of Brandeston] with the advowson was granted by Hen. III. to
Alan, Lord Burnell, of Acton Burnell, and he in 1259 granted the same to
Sir John de Weyland... and the same year John de Weyland had a grant of
free warren there [Chart. Rolls, 43 Hen. III. 3.]' Copinger IV:221[1]
see also Copinger, Vol. II-Westerfield, p. 369 as to the manor of
Westerfield
Spouse: Mary[1]
Children: William (-<1274)
Sir Thomas (->1291)
1.1 William de Weyland
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 17 Apr 1274, d.s.p.[1],[2]
of Brandeston, Suffolk
apparently succeeded his father at Brandeston, also dying in 1274 (succeeded
by brother Thomas)[1]
held lands in 'Tulachrothan [Tullaroan], Rathbolgan, Gurtuelem and Balydine,
Ireland' of which certain rights he had granted to William le Gras
had charter dated 6 Nov 1270 for a market and fair at Chipping Sodbury, co.
Glocs.:
'(Charter) vfm, Decollation of John the Baptist (29 Aug); gr 6 Nov 1270, by
K Hen III to William de Weylaund (CChR, 1257–1300, p. 156). To be held at
the manor.'[3]
witness as 'Sir William Weyland' together with his brother Sir Thomas
of a quitclaim concerning the manor of Bawdsey, Suffolk, 6 Aug 1272[4]
livery of his lands given to his brother and heir William, 17 Apr 1274
(Knights V:184)[2]
1.2a Sir Thomas de Weyland*
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1291, prob. France (in exile)[1],[5]
of Brandeston, Westerfield, Middleton and Blaxhall, co. Suffolk
'Sir William de Weyland, Sir Thomas his brother' were together
witnesses of a quitclaim of Thomas de Arderne of rents from the
manor of Bawdsey to the prior and canons of St. Mary of Butley,
Suffolk, 6 Aug 1272 [PRO, Suffolk Record Office, Ipswich Branch:
The Iveagh (Phillipps) Suffolk Manuscripts [HD 1538/113 - HD 1538/204]
- HD 1538/172/3[4]
'...order on the Close Rolls this year [1274] to restore the manor
[of Brandeston], not being held in chief of the King, to Thomas de
Weyland, brother and heir of "William" de Weyland [Close Rolls, 2
Edw. I. 5].'[1]
cf. Knights V:184 (cites C.R. 16 Aug 1274, F.R. 17 Ap. 1274)[2]
Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench
inherited the manor of Chipping Sodbury, co. Glocs. (or a moiety thereof)
from his brother William: a charter for a market and fair dated 15 Nov
1280:
' (Charter) Thurs; gr 15 Nov 1280, by K Edw I to Thomas de Weyland. To
be held at the manor (CChR, 1257–1300, p. 236). '[3]
made a concord with William le Gras, exchanging rights in Chipping Sodbury,
co.
Glocs. (for his son Richard) in exchange for rights in certain Irish lands
held previously by his brother William (q.v., re: Tullaroan & c.), 1283.[6]
record of a fine concerning Framsden, 1284:
' 1284 Thomas de Weylaund and Margaret his wife and Richard their son vs.
John de Stratton in Pethagh and Framesdene.... FFS 85 [13 Edward I,
4 and 13 Edward I, 20][7]
recorded as holding a market and fair at Milbury Heath, co. Glocs. in 1287
(QW, p. 264 cited as source)[3]
fled the King's justice to the church of the Friars Minor at Bury St. Edmunds;
subsequently abjured the realm, 1288[5]
d. overseas [Inq.p.m., 18 Edw. I., 51 as cited by Copinger][1]
NOTE: possibly d. 1292 or later: Prestwich [p.368] states:
[concerning the inquiries made by Edward I from legal experts overseas,
over
the Scottish succession]
' Remarkably, Thomas Weyland, the recently disgraced chief justice,
proferred his advice. Ignoring the instruction that the kingdom
should be regarded as impartible, he suggested its division between
Balliol, Bruce and Hastings, as this would be to Edward's greatest
advantage.' [ref. Great Cause, ii, 358-65; G. J. Hand, 'The Opinions
of the Paris Lawyers upon the Scottish Succession c. 1292', The Irish
Jurist, n.s. v (1970), 141-55.][5]
he m. lstly Ann de Colevill,
2ndly Margery de Moese[2]
Spouse: Ann de Colevill
Father: Richard de Colevill, of Pettaugh, Suffolk & c.
Children: Sir William (-1327)
Sir John (-<1312)
Other Spouses Margaret de Moese, 2nd wife
1.2a.1 Sir William de Weyland
----------------------------------------
Death: 1327[1]
of Brandeston and Westerfield, co. Suffolk
' in 1316 a fine was levied.... against Sir William de Weyland, the eldest
son of Sir Thomas Weyland, of this manor, and Westerfield, by which they
passed to the said Robert [de Baldcock], who regranted the same to Robert,
son of the said Sir William de Weyland, and Cecilia his (Robert's) wife,
daughter of Thomas de Baldcock, and the heirs of their bodies, being a
marriage arrangement' [Feet of Fines, 9 Edw. II. 25, cited in Copinger,
Vol. IV - Brandeston, p. 222; see also Copinger, Vol. II - Westerfield,
p. 369][1]
Children: Robert
1.2a.1.1 Robert de Weyland
----------------------------------------
of Brandeston and Westerfield, co. Suffolk
had grant of the manors of Brandeston and Westerfield from Robert de Baldcock
on his marriage to Cecilia de Baldock, 1316 [Feet of Fines, 9 Edw. II. 25.;
Copinger, Vol. IV - Brandeston, p. 222][8]
Spouse: Cecilia de Baldock
Father: Thomas de Baldock
Marr: ca 1316[1]
Children: NN
Catherine
1.2a.1.1.1 NN de Weyland
----------------------------------------
eldest daughter, per Copinger[1]
1.2a.1.1.2 Catherine de Weyland
----------------------------------------
identified by Copinger as 2nd daughter [Vol. III, p. 278][1]
Spouse: John de Botetourt[9], of Mendlesham, co. Suffolk
Birth: ca 1332[10]
Father: Otes de Botetourt (-1346)
Mother: Sibyl
Children: Joan (-1417)
1.2a.2 John de Weyland
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 30 Oct 1312[11],[1],[2]
kt., of Blaxhall, Middleton, Swilland[1] and Ashbocking, Suffolk & c.[11]
received from his father in 1287
'...all his Irish lands plus his Suffolk manor of Middleton, evidently in
anticipation of his marriage to Mary, the daughter of Richard and Mary de
Braose.'[12]
the Irish lands referred to are identified in grant of 1303, cited by Rosie
Bevan:
'32 Edw I John de Weyland - free warren in Wyttinesham, and Blakeshall,
Clopton manor market and fair in Suffolk.
Free warren in Balicover and Kylotheran [Killotheran], co.
Waterford, Ireland'[6]
[the charter for the market and fair at Clopton, Suffolk dated 19 Dec 1303,
from
CChR 1300-26, p. 43[3]]
had a grant of free warren in his manor of Blaxhall, 1304[1]
re: Blaxhall and other holdings of Sir Thomas de Weyland, Copinger wrote:
' On Thomas de Weyland abjuring the realm for felony in 1289, the manor was
taken into the King's hands [IPM, 18 Edw. I. 51], and a dispute arose as
to whether it had escheated or not. Roger Bigot, Earl of Norfolk, claimed
it as held of him, and it is said he obtained a verdict by means of a
packed
jury [R.P. i. 46]. John de Weyland, Thomas's son, however, in proceedings
in 1290 recovered the manor from the King and the Earl.
'The proceedings, which are interesting, will be found in the Abbreviation
of Pleas in 1290 [18 Edw. I., Trin. 62 (plea), 18 and 19 Edw. I. Mich. 54
(judgment)].' Copinger, V:110[1]
[See also Farrer, Honors and Knights' Fees, II:231 which states,
'...Thomas de Weyland, who abjured the realm for a felony, made
an agreement with Sir James son of Gilbert, whereby the said
Sir Thomas granted by fine to the said Sir James and his son
James the manors of Hedenham and Kelling, saving the
advowson of Hedenham for the term of his life, and Sir
James granted to the said Sir Thomas and John his son in
tail the manor of Blaxall, Suff., to be held of the said Sir
James and his heirs, which properties they had
previously exchanged by mutual consent.' Farrer cites
Cal. of Misc. Inq. i. 421[13]]
The manor of Rouse Hall, Suffok was probably the maritagium of his wife:
'...we meet with a fine levied of the manor in 1288 by John de Weyland
and Maria his wife against Richard de Brewse and Alice his wife, and there
can be no doubt that by virtue of this the manor became vested in John de
Weyland ' [Feet of Fines, 16 Edw. I. 7, as cited by Copinger,
Vol. I-Rouse Hall, p. 32][1]
had a grant of free warren [at Rouse Hall] in 1301, and the grant of a market
and fair in the manor in 1304[1]
d. 30 Oct 1312,
'...holding a moiety of Blaxhale Manor and advowson as 1 Fee, Manors
of Assch 1/2 Fee, Wantisden, Middilton 1/4 Fee, Clopton, Swynland,
Wythisham, Cokefeld, and Brompton in Withernisham 3/4 Fee,
Onhous, and Whelwitham, with mess. at Pethage, and leaving s. h.
Richard, 22 (Inq.).'
' He held also Kylothran Manor, Cloncridan township, and other
lands in Co. Waterford (Inq. 6 Ap. 1313).' Knights V:186, citing
IPMs of Sir John de Weyland in Suffolk and Co. Waterford[2]
__________________
in re: proof of Sir Richard de Weyland being son of John de Weyland:
(1) Wantisden, Suffolk was a holding of John de Weyland in 1306: reference
in
a quitclaim dated 26 May 1306:
' 1. Alexander Albard of Wantesdene [Wantisden], jun.
2. Godfrey de Ludham and wife Cecily
(1) quitclaims to (2), piece of land in Tunstalle [Tunstall], lying between
land of Sir John Weyland and land of Geoffrey Mingy, and piece of
turbary
in Wantesdene and [?But]tele [Butley], lying between (1)'s turbary and
turbary of Richard the smith; to hold of chief lords of fee by
accustomed
services. Warranty clause. Witnesses: Seyer Syward, Thomas de
Nauntone,
Roger Sarle, Walter Large, Robert Seyer, John Gentelman and others.
Given
at Wantesdene, Wednesday after Pentecost, 34 Edw.I.' - PRO, Suffolk
Record
Office, Ipswich Branch: The Iveagh (Phillipps) Suffolk Manuscripts
[HD 1538/348 - HD 1538/441], WANTISDEN [ HD 1538/406/6 ][4]
(2) 1313, fine levied by Sir Richard de Weyland and his wife Joan in re:
Wantisden and other manors (see under Richard)
Spouse: Mary de Braose[11]
Death: aft 12 Dec 1312[2]
Father: Sir Richard de Braose (-<1292), of Stinton, Norfolk & c.
Mother: Alice le Rus (ca1245-<1300)
Marr: bef 1289[11]
Children: Sir Richard (<1290-<1319)
1.2a.2.1 Sir Richard de Weyland
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 30 Oct 1290[2]
Death: bef 10 Apr 1319[11],[14]
kt., of Blaxhall, Middleton, Rouse Hall[1] and Cockfield, co. Suffolk [15]
Richard de Weyland and his wife Joan levied a fine of the manor of Blaxhall
and
the manors of Wantisden, Middleton and Cockfield in 1313 against Alexander
de Saxmundham, parson of Chyselford Church, and Peter de Grymmeston,
chaplain
[Feet of Fines, 6 Edw. II. 33] - Copinger, Vol. II, p. 124[1]
identified by Copinger in error as brother of John de Weyland [Vol. III, p.
32][1].
Inheritance of Rouse Hall, held by John de Weyland of his wife's
inheritance,
proves the descent. cf. also Knights V:186 [2]
also held the manor of Campsey, co. Suffolk [Copinger, Vol. IV, p. 230][1]
inherited the lands of his uncle Richard de Weyland (either directly or
through
his father), including :
Chipping Sodbury, co. Glocs. and Onehouse [Anhus], Suffolk
NOTE: Sodbury may have passed to the de Clare family in 1308 [2]
Spouse: Joan[11]
Death: aft 10 Apr 1319[14]
Children: Cecily (ca1318->1354)
1.2a.2.1.1 Cecily de Weyland[11]
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 10 Oct 1318[14]
Death: aft Aug 1354[15]
1st wife of Bartholomew de Burghersh[15]
heiress of Weyland (incl. manors of Campsey, Rouse Hall, Middleton, Carlton
Hall,
Swilland & c., co. Suffolk[1])
this may have included Chipping Sodbury, co. Glocs. (see IPM of Edward le
Despenser, 1375; it is possible this had passed to the de Clare family in
1308 - Knights V:186)[3]
Spouse: Sir Bartholomew de Burghersh, of Ewyas Lacy, co. Hereford, & c.
Birth: ? 1323[15],[16]
Death: 5 Apr 1369[15]
Father: Bartholomew de Burghersh (-1355)
Mother: Elizabeth de Verdun (ca1306-1360)
Marr: bef May 1335[15]
Children: Elizabeth (<1342-1409)
1.2b Sir Thomas de Weyland* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Margaret de Moese, 2nd wife
Death: 1324[1]
Father: Thomas de Moese
Children: Richard (->1308)
Eleanor (-<1331)
Other Spouses Ann de Colevill
1.2b.1 Richard de Weyland
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 6 Dec 1308, d.s.p.[6],[2]
of Onehouse [Anhus] and Framesden, Suffolk and Chipping Sodbury, co. Glocs.
rights to Chipping Sodbury acquired on his behalf by agreement of his parents
with William le Gras, 1283[6]
evidently was jointly enfeoffed in Milbury Heath, co. Glocs. (recorded as
holding fair and market there with William de Weylaund and Margaret his
wife,
1287)[3]
writ of 1290 authorized release of the manor of Anhus [Onehouse], Suffolk 'as
he
and Sir Thomas [his father] were jointly enfeoffed'[17]
lord of Folkestone, Kent de jure uxoris by 1296 (cites by Rosie Bevan, IPM of
Mabel Tregoz, 25 Edw. I and others)[6]
'Richard Welond of Framesdene', witness to quitclaim ca. 1291/2 in
Cretingham,
Suffolk - PRO, Suffolk Record Office, Ipswich Branch: The Iveagh (Phillipps)
Suffolk Manuscripts [HD 1538/113 - HD 1538/204] - Cretingham. Evidences of
title, Quitclaim, ref. HD 1538/196/1[4]
witness to quitclaim by John de le Hil of Fornham St. Genevieve to John,
abbott
of St. Edmundsbury, ca. 1280-1300 (PRO, Suffolk Record Office, Bury St
Edmunds
Branch: Hengrave [449/2 - 449/9] , SUFFOLK [449/2/190][4]
released his rights in Sodbury and Leygrave manors, and Sodbury borough, co.
Glocs. (Chipping Sodbury) to Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester 6 Dec
1308 (Knights V:186)[2]
Spouse: Juliana de Sandwich
Father: John de Sandwich (-1288), of Folkestone, Kent
Mother: Alice
1.2b.2 Eleanor de Weyland
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 11 Jun 1331[2]
cf. Knights V:185[2]
Spouse: Hugh de Neville, of Hallingbury and Wethersfield, Essex & c.
Death: 1335[15]
Father: John de Neville (-<1282)
Mother: Margaret
Children: John
1.2b.2.1 John de Neville
----------------------------------------
of Hallingbury and Wethersfield, Essex & c.
1. "The Manors of Suffolk: Notes on Their History and Devolution," W. A.
Copinger,
M.A., LL.D., F.S.A., London: T. F. Unwin, 1905-1911, 7 Vols.
2. "Knights of Edward I," Rev. Charles Moor, D.D., F.S.A., Pubs. of the
Harleian
Society, 1929-1930, 3 Vols. (Vols. 80-83 in series).
3. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516," www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
4. "Public Record Office Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
folk Record Office, Ipswich Branch: The Iveagh (Phillipps) Suffolk
Manuscripts
5. "Edward I," Michael Prestwich, New Haven: Yale University Press, 1997 [in
England, originally 1988 -Methuen], Yale English Monarchs series.
6. John P. Ravilious, "de Weyland, an Irish Connection (?): Chipping Sodbury,
co. Glocs.," May 28, 2002, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, additional
records
cited by Rosie Bevan, June 2, 2002.
7. "Stratton Notes (Suffolk) from Original Sources," Robert A. Battle, http://
familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/a/t/Robert-A-Battle/FILE/0008page.html
8. "'The Manor and Parish of Blymhill'," Collections for a History of
Staffordshire, The William Salt Archaeological Society, Birmingham:
Houghton
and Hammond, Scotland Passage, Vol. I (1880).
9. "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215," Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., Gen Pub Co.,
Baltimore, MD, 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David Faris).
10. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Botetourt," Sept 12, 1998,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
cites I. J. Sanders, English Baronies, p. 11 re: Beatrice de Beauchamp.
11. Douglas Richardson, "New MC Line:
Clare-Breuse-Weyland-Burghersh-Despenser,"
Dec 25, 2000, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, per D. Richardson, a new
discovery
to be featured in the book, Magna Carta Ancestry.
12. Douglas Richardson, "The new Weyland-Breuse-Clare line," March 17, 2002,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cites Chris Given-Wilson, An Illustrated
History
of Late Medieval England (1996), p.78.
13. "Honors and Knights' Fees," William Farrer, Litt.D., London:
Spottiswoode,
Ballantyne & Co., Ltd., 1924 (3 vols.), Vol I:, Vol II: Chester;
Huntingdon,
Vol III: Arundel, Eudes the Sewer, Warenne.
14. Rosie Bevan, "Re: Probable Identity of Joan, wife of Richard de Weyland,"
June 7, 2002, rbe...@paradise.net.nz, citing CIPM v. 6 No. 227 (IPM of
Richard de Weyland, 1319).
15. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the
United Kingdom.
16. Douglas Richardson, "CP Addition: Death of Bartholomew Burghersh, 3rd
Lord
Burghersh," August 12, 2002, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
17. Rosie Bevan, "Re: de Weyland, an Irish Connection (?) : Chipping Sodbury,
co. Glocs.," June 2, 2002, rbe...@paradise.net.nz
Chris Phillips
> Additional information has been found in the 'Knights of Edward I'
> of the Harleian Soc. publication series [2] which does provide an
> additional connection, and a change in the family structure as
> previously put forward [3]. The portions of the text relevant to
> these changes are as follows:
>
> Under 'Sir Thomas de Weyland, Kt.' [4]:
>
> 'Grant of wardship of lands late of Jn. de Nevyll at Lengham
> in minority of heir 4 Feb. (F.R.), and marriage of his s.h.
> Hugh de N. 16 Dec. 1283.'
>
> 'He held lands at Monecweden, with Manors of Brandeston,
> Blaxhale, and (to him, his w. Margery, and his s. Ric. and
> heirs of Ric.) Ayss, rents at Cleydon, Hedenham Manor, lands
> at Lit. Turrock and Chaldewell, and for life Gravesend Manor
> in Kent (Inq. 15 May 1290). He, Margery, and their s. Ric.
> and d. Eleanor had been enfeoffed of certain lands, which
> now fall to Margery and Ric., Margery and Eleanor,
> respectively, 14 Jy..... Margery de Moese, wid. of Thos. de
> W., is dead 26 June 1324. Their d. Eleanor left s. h.
> Jn. de Neville, 11 June 1331 (Inq.).'
Thanks for posting that additional information.
In your reconstruction you place Sir Thomas's widow as a daughter of Thomas
de Moese.
In contrast, CP ix 485 makes her the widow of a (?John) de Meuse, rather
than the daughter of a Thomas. It says this about the marriage of her
daughter Eleanor to Hugh de Neville:
"He m., 1stly, probably in 1290,(c) Eleanor, da. of Thomas DE WEYLAND, Chief
Justice of the Common Pleas, by Margery his wife, relict of (?John) DE
MEUSE, which Eleanor became h. of her br., Sir Richard WEYLAND.(d)
"(c) When his friends complained in Parl. of his disparagement by marriage
to the Judges daughter <I>after</I> his forfeiture to the King (Rolls of
Parl., vol. i, p. 52; De Banco Roll, Mich. 23-24 Edw. I, rot. 75).
"(d) Cal. Close Rolls, 1288-96, p. 95; Cal. Inq. p. m., vol. vi, p. 338;
vol. vii, pp. 287, 288; Cal. Inq. Misc., vol. i, no. 1505; Assize Roll 1454,
rot. 7; Duchy of Lanc. Misc. 1/26, m. 4."
Does anyone know of any evidence that would settle the issue of whether she
was a Moese/Meuse by birth, or only by marriage?
Chris Phillips
The...@aol.com
Dear Chris,
Thanks for the Neville text from CP, and the related notes/references.
The Moese connection given in my post is per Copinger [1], which I can
extend as follows:
John de Moese
of Campsey, Suffolk
_______________________I_________________
I I
John de Moese = Ada Thomas de Moese
of Campsey and (dower in of Campsey and Newton Hall
Newton Hall Newton Hall) - heir of his brother in
dsp 1293 (vol IV) 1293 (or 1308 ?)
or 1308 (vol I) I
I
I
Margaret de Moese
heiress of her father (Copinger)
d. 1324
= as 2nd wife, Sir Thomas de Weyland
Given the indication of a John de Moese [Meuse ?] as brother of Thomas
(father of Margaret de Moese according to Copinger), and having a widow
Ada , there is some clear disagreement between the CP author of the
Neville article and Copinger. Most likely, given the chronology and the
holdings of John de Moese in Campsey and Newton Hall, Suffolk, I surmise
that the CP author 'presumed' the relationship between John de Moese and
Margaret as husband and wife, not uncle and niece (a la Copinger).
In addition to that issue, there is the statement in the CP article
that Eleanor de Weyland '..became h. of her br., Sir Richard WEYLAND.'
This statement is also open to some discussion: we do find manors held
by this Richard de Weyland in the hands of his 'half' nephew Sir Richard
de Weyland (d. 1319), including Onehouse [Anhus], Suffolk, and also
Campsey (originally a de Moese manor). I wonder, what lands in fact of
the earlier Sir Richard de Weyland's tenure can be found in the hands of
his sister, or nephew John de Neville?
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] W. A. Copinger, M.A., LL.D., F.S.A., The Manors of Suffolk: Notes on
Their History and Devolution (London: T. F. Unwin, 1905-1911),
Vol. I, p. 170 - Newton Hall; Vol. IV, p. 230 - Campsey.
John Ravilious
Dear Chris,
Cheers,
John
NOTES
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<bb9npt$qve$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Reedpcgen
>F.S.A., The Manors of Suffolk: Notes on
> Their History and Devolution (London:
>T. F. Unwin, 1905-1911),
> Vol. I, p. 170 - Newton Hall; Vol. IV,
>p. 230 - Campsey.
>
Copinger gives not citations or sources in this case?
Paul
The...@aol.com
Hello Paul,
Sorry I had not picked up on your post earlier.
I will dig out my notes from Copinger over the weekend and
advise; when I made the notes for Copinger re: Weyland I did not
note what documentation (if any) he cited in those instances. I
will let you know what I find (or do not find)....
Cheers,
John
Nancy
Thomas Weyland m. 1st Ann Colvill & had a son John d. 1312 who married Mary Braose. John's heir was his son Richard b. 1290. He was 22 at his dad's inquisition
Thomas Weyland m. 2nd Margery Moese & had a son Richard. On Richard's inquisition in 1319 he holds only the Manor of Onhus/Onehouse & he was m. to Joan Ufford and had a daughter Cecily later married to Bartholomew Burghersh.
https://archive.org/details/cu31924099427845/page/n173/mode/2up
AND
https://books.google.com/books?id=GwtKAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA230&lpg=PA230&dq=margery+de+moese&source=bl&ots=jKl5kOpq5F&sig=ACfU3U0rL4uBMSjY909L1-5wBcs5D6NTEA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwia772u8rTsAhX5lXIEHRpfD5E4FBDoATAJegQIAhAC#v=onepage&q=margery%20de%20moese&f=false
Clearly this proves that there were 2 Richards. One the son of Thomas Weyland & Margery Moese m. to Joan & Richard son of John Weyland.