Gunnor d'Aubigny/Albini, dau. of Ralph & Sibyl de Valognes?

[clare...@gmail.com]

Hi,

Many sources, including Douglas Richardson's 'Royal Ancestry III:63' state that Gunnor d'Aubigny who m. Robert de Gant/Gaunt/Gand was the dau. of Ralph de Gant by Sibyl de Valoines/Valognes. Many of the posts on SGM have stated the same. Henry Sutliff, 20 Sep 2002, stated:

"It would seem that Gunnor was actually a half-sister and heir of Ralph II.
She and her sisters Matilda (wife of William de Coleville) and Alice (wife
of Stephen de Markham) were daughters of Sibyl de Valognes with Ralph II
apparently son of a different mother. EYC I:461."

Yet Sibyl m. Robert de Gant as her 3rd husband "1181-82" according to CP XI:91 (1st husband William de Ros) and CP IX:440-2 (2nd husband William de Percy). And yet her son, Gilbert, by her 3rd husband Robert was b. supposedly 1180 (AR7 156-26 & Post by John Ravilious (2 Jun 2006 post entitled "Brittany was Re: William de Mohun's (d Oct 1193) ancestors" where he state "1180-1241"). And Will Johnson (20 Oct 2005) stated Gilbert's dau. Juliana was b. "c1197".

Henry Sutliff indicated a different mother for the son Ralph. It would not have been a later wife, because CP & other sources indicate that Sibyl outlived Ralph. If there was a previous wife, why would she not be mother of Gonnor?

Obviously I am missing something here, because other have found nothing unusual in this area.

Any help would be appreciated.

Jim Weber

[ericgil...@gmail.com]

Your message is a bit confused. I think you meant Sibyl married as her third husband Ralph d'Aubigny, not Robert de Gant.

It's doubtful that Sibyl was mother of any of them as she was probably in her late forties when she married Ralph in 1182. She was already a grandmother in 1172.

Eric

[clare...@gmail.com]

Eric,

Thanks for pointing out my error. I meant Ralph d'Aubigny (Gonnor m. Robert de Gant.

I quote from Douglas Richardson, 'Royal Ancestry' III:63

ROBERT DE GANT (or GAUNT), of Folkingham, Barton-upon-Humber, Edenham, and Heckington, Lincolnshire, Burley, Rutland, etc...... He married (2nd) GUNNOR D'AUBENEY, daughter of Ralph d'AUBENEY, of Aubourn and Binbrook, Lincolnshire, by Sibyl, daughter of Thebaud de Valoines. They had two sons Gilbert, Knt., and Stephen, and one daughter Ellen.

I don't mean to single out 'Royal Ancestry' because there are a lot of sources which state basically the same thing. I am suspicious that I have something wrong with my lines because it doesn't make sense. I originally had Sibyl as a daughter of a different father until it was pointed out to me that CP had her marrying Ralph d'Albini as her 3rd husband 1181-2. 'Royal Ancestry' IV:344-5 (William Percy) has basically the same 3 marriages for Sibyl, making the 3rd to Ralph d'Aubeney "about 1182".

Jim Weber

[clare...@gmail.com]

Eric,

And after flipping the page in 'Royal Ancestry' III:66-7, the entry for Gilbert the offspring of Robert de Gant & Gunnor d'Aubeney states:

GILBERT DE GANT (or GAUNT), Knt., of Folkingham, Alford, Belleau, Claxby, Edenham, Strubby, Well, and Withern, Lincolnshire, Burley, Rutland, Healaugh and Hunmanby, Yorkshire, etc., son and heir by his father's 2nd wife, born about 1180 (minor in 1191). He came of age about 1201.

AR7, as in my 1st post, also stated Gilbert came of age by 1201.

Jim Weber

[Colin Withers via]

Hi,

I would like to make my first foray into the records on this site, but I
could do with a helping hand to get going.

I was in the BL Dept of MSS last week, when I found a reference in Add
MS 19081, Davy's Suffolk Collections, Item 26 on fol 46:

Placita Mich 26 E3
The text is in Latin, but I could see that it concerns John de
Heveningham and the Abbot and Chapter of Sibton Abbey, and mentions land
held by Katherine, dau and heir of John Blanchard. Then at the end of
the text it says: 24 E3.

It is confusing as to whether the date of this case refers to 26 Edw III
or 24 Edw III, or perhaps both.

But given the brief detail above, can anyone hazard a guess as to
whether this refers to the Common Pleas, Plea Rolls (CP40) or to the
King's Bench Plea Rolls (KB27), and what year is Mich 26 E3?

Finding a mid-14c legal case is going to stretch my meager paleographic
skills to the limit, so any help in narrowing down the record class and
the precise year would be much appreciated.

TIA

Wibs

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[ericgil...@gmail.com]

I haven't seen RA, but if Gilbert de Gant came of age in 1201, then he was born ca 1180, which means his mother was not a daughter of Ralph d'Aubigny and Sibyl de Valoines, who married in 1182. The daughters were probably all born to a previous wife.

I'm not convinced Sibyl was a daughter of Theobald de Valoines, either.

Eric


On Tuesday, September 16, 2014 5:25:39 PM UTC+12, clare...@gmail.com wrote:

[clare...@gmail.com]

Eric,

Out of all of the sources I have perused in the last few days (AR7, CP (twice), and posts by John Ravilious & Henry Sutliff), 'Royal Ancestry' was the only one to name Sibyl's father. It also is the only one to use the name "Valoines", as opposed to "Valognes", if there is any difference between the two spellings.

Jim Weber

[ericgil...@gmail.com]

Perhaps Mr Richardson would like to provide the source?
Eric

[taf via]

Wibs wrote:

> I would like to make my first foray into the records on this site, but
> I could do with a helping hand to get going.

> I was in the BL Dept of MSS last week, when I found a reference in
> Add MS 19081, Davy's Suffolk Collections, Item 26 on fol 46:

> Placita Mich 26 E3
> The text is in Latin, but I could see that it concerns John de
> Heveningham and the Abbot and Chapter of Sibton Abbey, and
> mentions land held by Katherine, dau and heir of John Blanchard.
> Then at the end of the text it says: 24 E3.

> It is confusing as to whether the date of this case refers to 26 Edw III
> or 24 Edw III, or perhaps both.

> But given the brief detail above, can anyone hazard a guess as to
> whether this refers to the Common Pleas, Plea Rolls (CP40) or to the
> King's Bench Plea Rolls (KB27), and what year is Mich 26 E3?

It would be found in the roll of 26 E 3, (in which Michaelmas term,
Sep./Oct. to Dec. would be 1352), assuming there hasn't been a
transcription error. xxiv and xxvi could easily be confused. I see
nothing that would tell you which set of pleas - the manuscript you
were looking at may have indicated this, but it is not in the you have
provided.

By the way, here is a simple regnal year calculator

http://people.albion.edu/imacinnes/calendar//Regnal_Years.html

taf

[janette...@talk21.com]

Hi
There is a difference. Theobald is a name associated with the family of 'de Valeines', not 'de Valognes'; see DD pp754-755. Sibyl de Valognes has no parentage in either DD or CP as far as I know, but if she were actually 'de Valeines' rather than 'de Valognes' as usually reported, her father might possibly be a Theobald.
The families got mixed up when a Rualon de Valeines married the sister of Haimo de Valognes, aka Hamo de Tichesia [Titsey, Surrey, not Tilsey as per DD] in the middle of the 12th century.
Best regards
JG

[ericgil...@gmail.com]

Actually "Valognes" was not used at all.

Here are some examples of spelling of Sibyl's surname from contemporary documents referring to her - "Valloniis", "Valoines", "Valones", "Waluines"

Here are some examples of contemporary usage relating to members of the barony - "Valoniis" (this is the most common variation BTW), " Walonis", "Valoines",

Now Theobald of Parham - "Valoines", "Valoniis", "Valeines", "Valaines".

Spot the problem.

Eric



On Tuesday, September 16, 2014 5:25:39 PM UTC+12, clare...@gmail.com wrote:

[janette...@talk21.com]

Crumbs. I'll leave you to it. I've just been poking about the Titsey family and their connection to Camberwell, so I'd been reading DD and it was at the front of my mind.
Good luck
Janette