Complete Peerage Addition: Hawise de Clare, wife of Geoffrey de Say, Magna Carta Baron
Douglas Richardson
The marital history of Geoffrey de Say (died 1230), the Magna Carta
baron, is quite muddled in secondary sources. The authoritative
Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 470 (sub Say) states that Geoffrey de Say
married (1st) Alice, widow of Hugh de Periers, and heiress and
possibly daughter of John de Cheyney, yet contemporary records clearly
show that Alice de Cheyne was actually this Geoffrey's mother. He is
likewise stated by C.P. to have married (2nd) Margery Briwerre, widow
of [William] de la Ferté and Eudes de Dammartin, yet this woman
appears to have been the second wife of his half-brother, Geoffrey de
Say (died 1265/71), of Rickling, Essex, Denham, Suffolk, etc. Rather,
evidence indicates that Geoffrey de Say actually married Hawise de
Clare, daughter of Richard de Clare, Knt., Earl of Hertford, also a
Magna Carta baron, by Amice, 2nd daughter and co-heiress of William
Fitz Robert, 2nd Earl of Gloucester. Gerald Paget, for instance,
notes that Geoffrey de Say had scutage of the knights fees on 7 March
1215, which he held of the Earl of Clare in free-marriage [see Paget,
Baronage of England (1957) 485: 3-4, citing Cl. 16 John m. 7]. About
1235 Geoffrey's widow, Hawise de Clare, and their son, William de Say,
jointly issued a charter regarding property in Edmonton, Middlesex
[see O'Connor Cal. of the Cartularies of John Pyel & Adam Fraunceys
(Camden Soc. 5th Ser. 2) (1993): 240]. Hawise de Clare was presumably
named for her maternal grandmother, Hawise, Countess of Gloucester.
Hawise de Clare's existence was evidently not totally unknown to
earlier historians and antiquarians, as I find that she is mentioned
Brydges, Collins' Peerage of England 7 (1812): 16-39 (sub Twisleton,
Lord Say and Sele) where she is called "Hawise, daughter of _____ de
Clare" and placed as the wife of an earlier Geoffrey de Say.
For interest's sake, a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants
is provided below. For the connecting links down to the immigranrts,
see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
Robert Abell, Anne Baynton, Essex Beville, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, Obadiah Bruen, Charles Calvert, Jeremy Clarke, Henry Corbin,
Thomas Culpeper, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges,
John Fisher, Gerard Fowke, Edmund, Edward, Richard, & Matthew Kempe,
Mary Launce, Anne Lovelace, Thomas Lunsford, Thomas Owsley, Edward
Raynsford, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel & William Torrey.
.
For the royalty buffs, I should mention that Hawise de Clare is a
lineal descendant of King Henry I of England through her mother, Amice
of Gloucester.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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SAY FAMILY
1. GEOFFREY DE SAY, of West Greenwich, Birling, Cudham, Keston, etc.,
Kent, Leckhampstead, Buckinghamshire, Kimpton and Sawbridgeworth,
Hertfordshire, Edmonton, Middlesex, Hartwell, Northamptonshire,
Allington, Hamsey, Saddlecombe, Streat, etc., Sussex, etc., 2nd but
eldest surviving son of Geoffrey de Say (died 1214), of Edmonton,
Middlesex, Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire, etc., Bailiff of Arques, by
his 1st wife, Alice (or Adelise) de Cheyne (widow of Hugh de Periers,
of Ditton Priors, Shropshire), and daughter and co-heiress of John de
Cheyne, of Street, Brighton, and Hamsey, Sussex. He was probably born
about 1180. In the period, 1197-1198, he confirmed his father's grant
of the manor of Rickling, Essex, to his half-brother, Geoffrey de
Say. In 1198 he and his father, Geoffrey de Say the elder, made a
grant to the hospital of Drincourt, providing for prayers for the soul
of Alice de Cheyne, mother of the younger Geoffrey. He married HAWISE
DE CLARE, daughter of Richard de Clare, Knt., 3rd Earl of Hertford
(but generally styled Earl of Clare), Magna Carta Baron, by Amice, 2nd
daughter and co-heiress of William Fitz Robert, 2nd Earl of Gloucester
[see CLARE 1 for her parentage]. They had three sons, William, Knt.,
Geoffrey, and John, Knt. In 1202 Ralph Tesson, Seneschal of Normandy,
was ordered to see that Geoffrey de Say the younger had a hundred
librates (of the money of Anjou) of the land of Juhel de Mayenne to
replace the land which he had lost through the war. In 1208 the
Sheriff of Kent was directed to put Geoffrey de Say the younger into
possession of that moiety of the manor of Burn, Sussex which Ralph
Tesson held. In 1214 he made fine in 400 marks to have his father's
lands, and in the same year the sheriffs of Kent, Herts, Bucks,
Sussex, Middlesex, and Northampton had orders to give him seisin of
the lands which had been his father's. He joined the confederacy of
the barons against King John. He was one of the twenty-five barons
elected to guarantee the observance of Magna Carta, signed by King
John 15 June 1215. In Oct. 1215 the king gave all of Geoffrey's lands
except the manor of West Greenwich, Kent to Peter de Craon. In Nov.
1215 Geoffrey de Say, Richard, Earl of Clare, Robert Fitz Walter, and
the mayor and two or three or four citizens of London had letters of
safe conduct to speak with the Bishop of Winchester and others to
treat of peace between the king and the barons. In July 1217 two of
his knights had safe conduct to go to London as hostages. Having
returned to fealty, he had restoration of his lands 14 Sept. 1217. He
and Pernel Pirot renounced any claim in the advowson of Leckhampstead,
Buckinghamshire before 1219. He went on pilgrimage to the Holy Land
in 1219, and to Santiago de Compostella in Spain in 1223. He was
present at the Siege of Bytham Castle in 1221. In 1222 he was granted
a weekly fair at Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire. In 1224 he answered
for 42 knights' fees in the scutage of Montgomery. In 1228 he gave
the manor of Saddlecombe, Sussex to the Templars. At an unknown date,
he granted land in Edmonton, Middlesex to Ralph Silvan, together with
a covenant not to alienate the property to religious persons or Jews.
By an undated charter, he granted five acres of land in West
Greenwich, Kent to Symon de Thycheseia. At an unknown date, he
confirmed the gift of his cousin, Walkelin Mamimot, to Bermondsey
Abbey of of a rent-charge of 60 shillings per annum out of the
lordship of Chippenham in Dillehurst. At an unknown date, he gave
Alice Blund of Edmonton, Middlesex ½ virgate of land which Reginald
Fitz Ralph formerly held in the manor of Edmonton of him, to be held
by service of 5s. per annum. GEOFFREY DE SAY died while in service in
Poitou 19 August 1230. He was buried at the Hospital of St. Mary,
Dover, Kent, to which he had given the manor of Coldred with his
body. His widow, Hawise, joined their son, William de Clare, in a
charter dated c.1235 regarding property in Edmonton, Middlesex.
Brydges, Collins' Peerage of England 7 (1812): 16-39 (sub Twisleton,
Lord Say and Sele) (identifies wife of Geoffrey de Say died 1230 as
Alice, "daughter and co-heir of John de Caisneto, or Cheney," which
Alice was actually his mother; an earlier Geoffrey de Say is assigned
a wife "Hawise, daughter of _____ de Clare."). Dugdale, Monasticon
Anglicanum 6(1) (1830): 657. Clutterbuck, Hist. & Antiqs. of Hertford
3 (1827): 194 (Say pedigree). Thomson, An Hist. Essay on the Magna
Charta of King John (1829): 295 (biog. of Geoffrey de Say). Hardy
Rotuli de liberate ac de misis et praestitis, regnante Johanne (1844):
191, 207, 216, 228, 229. Eyton, Antiquities of Shropshire 3 (1856):
331-333. Top. & Gen. 3 (1858): 1-4 (erroneously identified wife as
"Alice, daughter of John de Cheney"). Paris, Chronica Majora 2 (Rolls
Ser. 57) (1874): 604-605. Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 2 (1894): 30
(A. 2035). Round, Cal. of Docs. Preserved in France 1 (1899): no.
280. C.P.R. 1216-1225 (1901): 369. Misc. Gen. & Heraldica 4th Ser. 3
(1910): 313-317. Phillimore, Rotuli Hugonis de Welles Episcopi
Lincolniensis A.D. MCCIX-MCCXXXV 1 (Lincoln Rec. Soc. 3) (1912): 109-
110. VCH Hertford 3 (1912): 29-33, 332-347. Genealogist n.s. 34
(1918): 181-189. Sussex Arch. Colls. 65 (1924): 20-53 (re. Cheyney
family). Farrer, Honors & Knights' Fees 3 (1925): 226, 313-322. VCH
Buckingham 4 (1927): 181 (Say arms: Quarterly or and sable). C.P. 11
(1949): 468-470 (sub Say). Hatton, Book of Seals (1950): 325-326.
Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 485: 1-10 (sub Say). Sanders,
English Baronies (1960): 98. Curia Regis Rolls 14 (1961): 327, 332-
333; 15 (1972): 110, 366, 384. VCH Sussex 7 (1940): 114. Hethe, Reg.
Hamonis Hethe Diocesis Roffensis 1 (Canterbury & York Soc. 48) (1948):
24. Burman, The Templars: Knights of God (1990): 96. O'Connor, Cal.
of the Cartularies of John Pyel & Adam Fraunceys (Camden Soc. 5th Ser.
2) (1993): 221, 240 (charter of William son of Geoffrey de Say and
Hawise de Clare). VCH Northampton 5 (2002): 176-197. Corporation of
London Records Office: Bridge House Estates, Reference: CLA/007/EM/02/
F/014 (undated charter of Geoffey de Say to Symon de Thycheseia)
(abstract of document available online at http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).
Children of Geoffrey de Say, by Hawise de Clare:
i. WILLIAM DE SAY, Knt., son and heir.
ii. GEOFFREY DE SAY. On 14 October 1246 Geoffrey de Say "brother of
William de Say" gave a bond to Aaron son of Abraham the Jew for £30, a
moiety to be paid at the quinzaine of Michaelmas next, and the other
moiety at the same term next following. Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 3
(1900): 447.
iii. JOHN DE SAY, Knt. He witnessed a charter of his brother,
William de Say, after 1264. He is possibly the John de Say whose heir
in 1302 at Frant, Sussex was William de Bromfeld. Arch. Cantiana 5
(1863): 221-222. Feudal Aids 5 (1908): 132.
Douglas Richardson
As a followup to my recent thread regarding the marriage of Sir
Geoffrey de Say, the Magna Carta baron, to Hawise de Clare, I should
point out that there were at least six men of this name in a short
period of time who occur in contemporary English records. There was
the Magna Carta baron, of course, and his father of the same name.
These two men have been badly confused in the account of the Say
family in the authoritative Complete Peerage. And then there is the
Magna Carta baron's half-brother of the same name. And then the Baron
and his half-brother each had sons named Geoffrey. Finally there was
a Geoffrey de Say, clerk, who doesn't appear to be any of these
people. Regardless, I've managed to piece together a few particulars
regarding the Magna Carta baron's half-brother, Sir Geoffrey de Say,
and his family, which Iinformation is presented below.
Complete Peerage sub Marshal presents evidence which suggests that
Hawise, wife of John le Marshal, Knt., of Hockering, Norfolk, may
possibly have been a member of the Say family of Rickling, Essex and
Denham, Suffolk discussed below. However, Complete Peerage notes that
the marriage of John le Marshal was granted back in 1267 to Sir
William de Say, the Magna Carta baron's son, who was a near kinsman to
the Rickling-Denham Say family. My guess is that Sir William de Say
had a daughter Hawise named for his mother, Hawise de Clare, and that
he married her to John le Marshal whose marriage he had acquired. My
research indicates that Sir William de Say had at least two sons and
three other daughters. It would make little sense for him to acquire
the important marriage of John le Marshal, and then marry him off to
his cousin's daughter, especially when he had daughters of his own for
whom he needed to find marriages. Rather, Sir William de Say would
almost certainly have married John le Marshal to his own daughter,
Hawise. John le Marshal and his wife, Hawise, are ancestors of the
later Lords Morley and other important families.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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GEOFFREY DE SAY, of Rickling, Essex and Denham, Suffolk
Sir Geoffrey de Say (died 1265/71), of Rickling, Essex, and Denham,
Suffolk (half-brother to the Magna Carta baron), was the son of
Geoffrey de Say, died 1214, of Edmonton, Middlesex, Sawbridgeworth,
Hertfordshire, Denham, Suffolk, etc., Bailiff of Arques, by his 2nd
wife, Alice, daughter of Aubrey de Vere, Earl of Essex. The younger
Sir Geoffrey appears to have married three times: (1st) to an unknown
wife; (2nd) before Michaelmas 1225 (date of lawsuit) Margery Briwerre,
widow of William de la Ferté (died 1216) and Eudes de Dammartin (died
shortly before 8 April 1225), which Geoffrey and Margery were divorced
without issue probably by Hilary term, 1230 (when Margery occurs alone
in a lawsuit as Margery de la Ferté) and definitely by Trinity term,
1231 (Margery died in or before 1237); and (3rd) before 1239-1240
(date of fine) Aline _____, widow of Hubert de Vaux (living 1235/6),
of Surlingham, Suffolk. By these various marriages, he had at least
two sons, Geoffrey and Robert (clerk), and one daughter, Maud (wife of
Geoffrey Crek). His third wife, Aline, was living in Hilary Term,
1244. In 1265 he was granted free warren in his demesne lands at
Rickling, Essex and Denham, Suffolk. He died before 1271. His heir
in 1273 was John de Say, Knt., of Denham, Suffolk and Rickling, Essex,
who in that year with his brother, Nicholas de Say, beat, wounded, and
ill treated John Mauveisin, bailiff of the hundred of Risbridge, who
came to levy the king's due from the said John in the vill of Denham.
In 1292 Sir John de Say confirmed a grant of Robert de Say, clerk, son
of Sir Geoffrey de Say, in Rickling, Essex. Sir John de Say was
living in 1294.
References:
Rye, Short Cal. of Feet of Fines for Norfolk 1 (1885): 63. Maitland,
Bracton's Note Book 2 (1887): 445-446. Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds, 2
(1894): 521. Denham Parish Regs., 1539-1850, with Hist. Notes and
Notices (1904): 180-181. VCH Surrey 3 (1911): 321-326. Clay, Early
Yorkshire Charters 6 (1939): 53-54. C.P. 11 (1949): 467, footnote o
(sub Say). Curia Regis Rolls, 12 (1957): 295, 302-303, 322. Paget,
Baronage of England (1957). Curia Regis Rolls, 13 (1959): 115, 520.
Sanders, English Baronies (1960): 123. Curia Regis Rolls, 14 (1961):
332-333. VCH Cambridge 6 (1978): 52-53. Curia Regis Rolls, 16
(1979): 388, 389, 392, 398. Aston, Lollards and Reformers (1984): 181-
182 (which erroneously assigns Margery Briwerre as the wife of
Geoffrey de Say (died 1230), the Magna Carta baron). Dodwell, The
Charters of Norwich Cathedral Priory 2 (Pubs. Pipe Roll Soc. n.s. 46)
(1985): 247-248. Curia Regis Rolls, 17 (1991): 131, 133, 287, 426,
479-480. Curia Regis Rolls, 18 (1999): 212. VCH Northampton, 5
(2002): 374-413. PRO Documents, C 241/18/95, C 241/25/121, C
241/25/247 (abstract of documents available online at
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).