Olivia de la Mare, and Thornhill of Thornhill
John Ravilious
______________________________
Saturday, 11 September, 2004
Dear MichaelAnne (and Chris, Rosie, Leo, Douglas, Ian, Brom, et al.),
You had posted the text & A2A location for a grant and exchange
made by
Olivia de la Mare, involving her son Richard de Thornhill but
importantly also
her SON AND HEIR William d'Arcy, as follows:
_______________________________________________
PRO, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Yorkshire Archaeological Society:
Clarke Thornhill of Fixby Collection
Reference: DD12/II/3/10
Deeds
Grant by Olyva de la Mare, widow, to Richard de Thornil, her son, of
all her land in Galthorn namely all that land which she had of
Geoffrey de Nevill and Mabel, his wife, in exchange for land in
Culgarth, in accordance of a deed of quit claim which the said Richard
has from William de Arci, the said Olyva's son and heir. Witnesses,
John de Lungvilers, Robert de Stapelton, William de Brettona, Adam de
Mirfeud, Adam de Preston, knights, Richard de Tanoreslay.
(Middle of 13th century.).
_____________________________________________
This got me thinking, and looking. I went through the SGM
archives re:
references to Malherbe & c., and came up with the chart and
documentation
given below.
This doesn't solve the mysteries concerning the de la Mare
ancestry per
se, but provides a bit more in the way of connections incl. to Adam
fitz Swain
of Appleby. I capitalized the names of the individuals in the chart
either
involved in or named in the exchange, including Olivia's son-in-law
Richard de
Tankersley (name reads "Richard de Tanoreslay" in the A2A text).
This does appear to cement the connection between Olivia de la
Mare and
Mabel, especially due to the exchange of lands in Culgaith,
Cumberland and
Cawthorne, co. Yorks. (all holdings of Adam fitz Swain). Any
comment,
criticism or supportive/contrary documentation is welcome as always.
Cheers,
John *
Adam fitz Swain =
of Appleby, co. Lincs., Culgaith, I
Cumbs. and Cawthorne, co. I
Yorks. Founder of the I
monastery of Monk Bretton I
d. 1159 I
________________________I______
I I
Alexander = Amabel 1) Adam de = Matilda = 2) John = 3)
Gerard
de Nevill I <coheir> Montbegon I <coheir> I Malherbe
de
V d. bef 1172 I I d. 1181
Glanville
___________________________________I I
I ________________________I________________
I I I I
Roger de William de = Mabel John Eudo de =
Clementia
Montbegon la Mare I dsp bef Longvilliers I
Malherbe
dsp 1227 d.ca.1203 I 1216 d. 1229 I
____________I I_____
_______I_______ I
I I I
MABEL OLIVIA = 1) Hervey = 2) Sir John JOHN
DE
= GEOFFREY DE LA MARE I d'Arcy I de Thornhill
LONGVILLIERS
DE NEVILL I I d. bef 1260 d.
1254
__________________I ________I_________
<witness>
I I I
I I I
WILLIAM RICHARD Sara = Sir RICHARD
D'ARCY DE THORNHILL I DE TANKERSLEY
<heir of his d. 1287 I <witness>
mother> V
__________________________________________
References:
Message 7 in thread
From: Reedpcgen (reed...@aol.com)
Subject: Re: De la Mare
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 1999/02/24
>Do you know anything of the De la Mare family which married into
>Thornhill? William (son of Ralph) m. Mabel de Malherbe by Maud dau.
of
>Adam Fitzswain and their ?dau. m. Sir John de Thornhill (d. bef. 11
MAR
>1249/50).
>
>mbc
John Malherbe (d. 1181), second husband of Maud, was by her father of
two
daughters who would become coheirs. The eldest, Mabel, married
William de la
Mare (son of Ralph, who d. ca. 1203), and was mother of Mabel de la
Mare (d.
1249) who married Geoffrey de Nevill. It is conjectured that Mabel
had a
sister, Olivia, who was called "de la Mare" (after the decease of her
two
husbands) in early Lincoln/Yorkshire records. She married (1) Hervey
d'Arecy
(Darcy) of Flixborough, Lincs., and (2) Sir John de Thornhill.
Olivia's
daughter Sarah de Thornhill was mother of two daughters and coheirs,
Alice de
Tankersley, who married Richard le Tyes [above], and Johanna de
Tankersley, who
married Sir Hugh Eland.
There are different branches of the de la Mare family in England,
entirely
unrelated. You want the one in Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. I don't
think
there is anything extensive printed on this branch, so you're into
original
research if you want more.
pcr
____________________________________________________
Domesday Descendants Corrections
From: Rosie Bevan (rbe...@paradise.net.nz)
Subject: DD Corrections and Amendments - update 3
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 28 November, 2003
DD p 961 Filius Suein, Adam:
"He died in 1159 leaving two daughters and coheiresses, Amabel wife of
William Neville and Matilda, wife first of Adam de Montbegon, and then
of
Gerard de Glanville."
Matilda, daughter of Adam fitz Swain was married three times. By Adam
de
Montbegon who died before 1172, she had issue Roger de Montbegon
d.s.p.
1227. Her second husband was John Malherbe of Appleby, Lincs. d.1181,
by
whom she had three children - John Malherbe d.s.p. bef 1216; Mabel,
wife of
William de Lemare; and Clemence, wife of Eudes de Longviliers. Maud
married
thirdly Gerard de Glanvill but had no issue by him. A succession of
charters
to the monastery of Monk Bretton, which Adam fitz Swein founded,
indicates
that her eventual heirs were by her second husband John Malherbe - her
grandchildren, Mabel de Lemare, wife of Geoffrey de Nevill, and John
de
Longviliers.
EYC v.3 p.318 ; CP Vol IX (Neville) page 502c (f)
Adrian Channing, Rosie Bevan 20 July 2003
____________________________________________
from The Bretton Family History Website
http://www.bretton.org/addenda.htm
Yorkshire Archaelogical Society - Yorkshire Deeds Volume IV
Relations between Adam fitz Swain’s daughters and their Bretton
half brothers
Under the heading of “Cawthorne” on page 40 are given
details of a grant from Olyva de la Mare, in her widowhood, to her
son, Richard de Thornhill.. Olyva de la Mare was grand-daughter of
Adam fitz Swain and would therefore be related to the Brettons, albeit
they were illegitimate. It is interesting to see that all the six
witnesses were Knights and included Sir John Lunguilers (Longuilers)(
who married another of Adam’s grand-daughters), Sir William
Bretton, and another of her sons, Sir Richard de Tankersley
(Tancreslay). The notes state that the date of the deed (many early
deeds were undated) was clearly before 1254 (when Sir John Longuilers
died)
he full details of the deed, as recorded, and, in particular the notes
attached are as follows :-
Grant by Olyva de la Mare in her widowhood to Richard de Thornhil her
son, for his homage, of all her land in the vill of Calthorn, which
she had of Sir Geoffrey de Nevill and Mabel his wife in exchange for
her land in the vill of Culgaith, of which there was a plea between
them before the justices of Carlisle (Caridiolum) ; to have and to
hold in accordance with a quitclaim and charter of confirmation which
Richard had from William de Arci the grantor’s son and heir ; at
the annual rent to the grantor and her heirs of a pound of cumin at
Martinmas. Witnesses, Sir John de Lunguilers, Robert de Stapeltona,
William de Brettona, Adam de Mirfeud, Adam de prestona, knts., Richard
de Tancreslay.
The notes attached say :-
“This deed gives rise to several points of difficulty. The date
is clearly earlier than 1254 when Sir John de Longvillers died (Yorks
Inq. I. 40). Mabel de Nevill, daughter of William de la Mare and
widow of Geoffrey de Nevill, made a grant to Monk Bretton 1249 - 53.
(Farrer, Early Yorkshire Charters no. 1648). For her descent through
her mother, Mabel Malherbe, from Adam son of Swain, who had Cawthorne
see ibid p. 318. Culgaith had formed part of Swain’s lordship in
Cumberland - ibid p. 317 and Mr W. Farrer has given me a reference to
a Cumberland Fine of 1232 (file 2 - No. 13) in which Geoffrey de
Nevill and Mabel his wife acknowledged, after a plea of warranty of
charter, a moiety of the manor to be the right of William son of John.
With regard to Olyva her interest in Culgaith would appear to have
arisen either by reason of dower or by reason of inheritance from Adam
son of Swain ; and the former is almost certainly ruled out by the
fact that in this deed the rent reserved for the Cawthorne property
was to her “and her heirs”. The latter suggestion that she
was a descendant of Adam, being another daughter of William de la Mare
and Mabel Malherbe, and using her maiden name in dealing with her own
inherited property, would seem to invite acceptance. A William de
Arcy, possibly her son mentioned in this deed held of Norman de Arcy 4
fees in Flixborough and elsewhere in County Lincolnshire 1242-3 (Book
of Fees ii, 1077); and, with regard to the Thornhill connection
Whitaker (Loidis and Elmete page 31) says that Olivia de la Mar
married Sir John de Thornhill, who was living 21 Henry III and had
issue Sir Richard de Thornhill but he does not guarantee his history
of the Thornhill family, which was based on Hopkinson.
* John P. Ravilious
John Ravilious
Hello All,
Following is a slight revision to the chart posted earlier,
spaced in order to avoid earlier problems on the margins.
Cheers,
John
John *
Adam fitz Swain =
of Appleby, co. Lincs., Culgaith, I
Cumbs. and Cawthorne, co. I
Yorks. Founder of the I
monastery of Monk Bretton I
d. 1159 I
________________________I______
I I
Alexander = Amabel 1) Adam de = Matilda = 2)John = 3)Gerard
de Nevill I <coheir> Montbegon I <coheir> I Malherbe de
V d. bef 1172 I I d. 1181 Glan-
I I ville
______________________________I I
I ___________________I____________
I I I I
Roger de William = Mabel John Eudo de = Clementia
Montbegon de la I dsp bef Long- I
dsp 1227 Mare I 1216 villiers I
d.ca.1203 I d. 1229 I
_________I I_____
_______I_______ I
I I I
MABEL OLIVIA = 1)Hervey = 2) Sir John JOHN DE
= GEOFFREY DE LA I d'Arcy I de Thornhill LONGVILLIERS
DE NEVILL MARE I I d. bef 1260 d. 1254
____________I _______I_______ <witness>
I I I
I I I
WILLIAM RICHARD Sara = Sir RICHARD
D'ARCY DE THORNHILL I DE TANKERSLEY
<heir of his d. 1287 I <witness>
mother> V
the...@aol.com (John Ravilious) wrote in message news:<55712d2e.04091...@posting.google.com>...
<<<<<<<< snip >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> ancestry perse, but provides a bit more in the way of connections incl.
> to Adam fitz Swainof Appleby. I capitalized the names of the individuals
> in the chart either involved in or named in the exchange, including
> Olivia's son-in-law Richard de Tankersley (name reads "Richard de
> Tanoreslay" in the A2A text).
>
> This does appear to cement the connection between Olivia de la
> Mare and Mabel, especially due to the exchange of lands in Culgaith,
> Cumberland and Cawthorne, co. Yorks. (all holdings of Adam fitz Swain).
> Any comment, criticism or supportive/contrary documentation is welcome
> as always.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John *
>
>
>
> Adam fitz Swain =
> of Appleby, co. Lincs., Culgaith, I
> Cumbs. and Cawthorne, co. I
> Yorks. Founder of the I
> monastery of Monk Bretton I
> d. 1159 I
> ________________________I_____
> I I
> Alexander = Amabel 1) Adam de = Matilda = 2) John = 3) Gerard
> de Nevill I <coheir> Montbegon I <coheir> I Malherbe de
> V d. bef 1172 I I d. 1181 Glanville
I am only interested in clarifying Amabel dau of Adam Filius Swein.
Below Rosie Bevan quotes Keats-Rohan's Domesday Descendants, p. 961 to
the effect that Amabel's husband was _William_ de Neville.
Additionally DD on p. 418 shows she had a husband Alexander de
Crevequer (perhaps shunted to become "Alexander de Neville"?) and they
had:
Alexander, dsp,
Cecily, d. 1218, who m. Walter de Neville,
Matilda, m. Henry de Chesney.
Finally on DD p. 361 Amabel had a daughter Sara who m. Thomas de Burgh.
But DD does not say who was Sara's father. My guess is that Sara was
the dau. of Wm. de Neville, but I have no justification for this.
Can anyone clarify Amabel's families? Did she have any descendants
beyond her children?
> ___________________________________I I
> I _______________________I_____________
<snip>
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
The...@aol.com
Dear Tim,
Apologies to you (and all) re: the misleading 'Alexander de Neville'
appearing in the subject chart as husband of Amabel. What was in fact intended
was, Alexander de CREVEQUER.
That being said, it will be of interest to resolve the Domesday
Descendants Dispute you've noted. Following is the descent I show from Amabel,
daughter of Adam fitz Swain, to the Wentworths of Elmsall & c.
Cheers,
John
___________________________
1 Alexander de Crevequer[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1165, d.v.p.[1],[2]
Father: Reginald de Crevequer (-<1173)
Mother: Matilda 'filia Gilberti'
of Redbourne, co. Lincs.[1]
'Alexander de Crevequer', made a gift of 40 acres in 'Hachetorn' to
Bullington priory, co. Lincs.[Mon. Angl. 6/II, p. 953, Num. VII][3].
In the same charter, confirms a gift of land in Redbourne by his father
and himself: 'pater meus Reginaldus et ego'[3]
Spouse: Amabel filia Adam[1]
Death: 1207[1]
Father: Adam fitz Swain of Appleby & c. (-1159)
Children: Cecily (-1218)
Alexander
Matilda
1.1 Cecily de Crevequer[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: 1218[1],[2]
'Cecilia de Crevequer', heiress of Redbourne[1] [DD 418][2]
Spouse: Walter de Neville[1]
Death: ca 1198
Children: Alexander (-ca1219)
1.1.1 Alexander de Neville[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1219[1]
of Redbourne, co. Lincs.[1]
Spouse: Margaret[1]
Children: Alexander (>1201-1249)
1.1.1.1 Alexander de Neville[1]
----------------------------------------
Birth: aft 13 Jun 1201[4]
Death: 1249[1]
of Redbourne, Lincs. and Mirfield, co .York[1]
a minor in 1222: Geoffrey de Neville and Richard de Alencon fined for
the custody of the land and heir of 'Alex' de Nevill' ' [mandate to the
Sheriff of Yorkshire and Cumberland to receive agreed security,
Westminster, 13 June 1222][4]
Children: Ellen
1.1.1.1.1 Ellen de Neville[1]
----------------------------------------
coheiress[1]
Spouse: Richard le Tyes[1]
Children: Richard (->1318)
1.1.1.1.1.1 Richard le Tyes
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1318
of Elmsall, co. York
cf. Vis. Yorkshire, pedigree of Wentworth[5]
Spouse: Alice de Tankersley
Father: Sir Richard de Tankersley
Mother: Sarah de Thornhill [ * a descendant of Adam fitz Swain]
Children: Jane
1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Jane le Tyes[6]
----------------------------------------
heiress of Elmsall, co. York
Spouse: John Wentworth
Children: John
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 John Wentworth
----------------------------------------
of Elmsall, co. York[6]
cf. Rutton, xvi[7]
Spouse: Alice Bisset
Children: John (-1425)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 John Wentworth
----------------------------------------
Death: 15 Oct 1425[5]
of Elmsall, co. York[6]
cf. Rutton, xvi[7]
Spouse: Agnes Dransfield[6]
Death: 3 Oct 1430[5]
Father: William Dransfield
Children: John Wentworth of North Elmsall(~1370-)
Richard Wentworth of West Bretton
Roger of Nettlestead, Suffolk [de jure uxoris] (-1452)
1. Paul C. Reed, "William Longespee," Mar 7, 1998,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, Discussion of possible identity of mother
of William Longespee, Sources incl: Farrer, W. Early Yorkshire Charters,
Vol. 3 p. 318.
2. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002.
3. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London: Harding & Lepard;
and Longman Rees... Green, 1830, Vol. VI, Pt. 1 - Austin Abbey of Wigmore,
in Herefordshire, pp. 348-356 [Fundationis et Fundatorum Historia],
Vol. VI, Pt. 2 - Priory of Bullington, co. Lincs., pp. 951-954.
4. Charles Roberts, ed., "Excerpta ex Rotulis Finium," The Commissioners of
the Public Records of the Kingdom, Vol I (1216-1246), 1835, full title:
Excerpta e Rotulis Finium in Turri Londinensi asservatis, Henrico Tertio
Rege, A.D. 1216-1272.
5. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower, Esquire,
Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell and Hughes,
Printers, London, 1881, pp. 154-156: pedigree of Hastings of Elsing
6. "Visitations of the North, Part III," Publications of the Surtees Society,
Vol. CXLIV, Northumberland Press Ltd., Newcastle, 1930, 78 et seq.
7. Rutton, William Loftie, "Three Branches of the Family of Wentworth,"
London: privately printed, 1891, .pdf image files provided by
Genealogy.com www.genealogy.com.
Hal Bradley
Thank you for this outline. I have a question (see below).
Thanks for your input.
Hal Bradley
Monday, 13 September, 2004
Dear Tim,
Cheers,
John
___________________________
Children: Alexander (-ca1219)
Spouse: Margaret[1]
Children: Alexander (>1201-1249)
Children: Ellen
Sanders' "English Baronies", p. 74, identifies the husband of Elena de
Neville as Henry le Tyes citing CIPM ii, no. 574 among others. I do not have
ready access to the ipm cited. Comments? Thank you.
1.1.1.1.1 Ellen de Neville[1]
----------------------------------------
coheiress[1]
Spouse: Richard le Tyes[1]
Children: Richard (->1318)
1.1.1.1.1.1 Richard le Tyes
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1318
of Elmsall, co. York
cf. Vis. Yorkshire, pedigree of Wentworth[5]
Spouse: Alice de Tankersley
Father: Sir Richard de Tankersley
Mother: Sarah de Thornhill [ * a descendant of Adam fitz Swain]
Children: Jane
snip