More Kinsfolk: Grandison, Wake, Courtenay, Berkeley, Warenne, Saint John,...
The...@aol.com
Dear Louise,
I have a theory I am working on, which also would
locate the relationship between John de Warenne (d. 1347)
and John de Grandison, Bp of Exeter through the ancestry
of Mabel FitzWarin. However, this does not lead to the
Tosny/Tony family.
In the SGM thread <CP Correction: Fulk 'III' FitzWarin
and His Descendants>, I wrote:
" { Note [16] }
Constance de Tosny was born most likely between July 1233
and Jan. 1236/7:
1. Her parents, Ralph (VI) de Tosny and Petronilla
de Lacy, were married after October 1232 (CP Vol
XII-Tony). A birthdate of July 1233 would be the
earliest reasonable date, but we do not know that
such a birth occurred, or that Constance was
necessarily
the eldest child (surviving or otherwise).
2. Fulk, son of Constance by Fulk FitzWarin, was born
14 September 1251 (CP Vol V-FitzWarin, p. 495).
Assuming the conventions of the age were observed,
Constance was aged 14 or more at the time
of conception: therefore, a date of January 1236/7
would be the latest presumable (although not
theoretical) birthdate for Constance.
Her father, Roger de Tosny, d. 1239 (CP) at sea, while
on Crusade. His actual departure date from England is
not known, but this was most likely in the summer of
1239 (Runciman, History of the Crusades III:211-2).
There could have been no issue of the marriage of
Roger de Tosny and Petronilla de Lacy, posthumous or
otherwise, after early 1240.
At the time of Fulk ‘IV’ FitzWarin’s grant of the
manor of Lambourn to Mabel FitzWarin in 1249, evidently
as her maritagium, Fulk himself was no more than 41
years of age; Constance de Tosny, no more than 16 years
of age, and possibly less. Working backward from the
terminus of the estimated birth date for Clarice de
Tregoz (no later than Jan 1261/2), the birthdate for
Mabel FitzWarin was no later than April 1247 (assuming
she was at least 14 at the time of conception for
Clarice). As Constance de Tosny was most likely aged
13 or less in April 1247, the mother of Mabel
FitzWarin had then to be a previous wife of Fulk ‘IV’
FitzWarin." [1]
That being said, I find it most likely that the mother
of Mabel FitzWarin was, in fact, Clarice d'Auberville. If
we can solve the riddle of the d'Auberville descent, we
will likely find the Warenne of the sought answer.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] J. Ravilious, <CP Correction: Fulk 'III' FitzWarin and
His Descendants>, SGM, 3 May 2003, note [16].
* John P. Ravilious
Louise Staley
I made the qualification that the relationship of 5th cousins once
removed between John Warenne, Earl of Surrey and John Grandison,
Bishop of Exeter as depending on the mother of Mabel Fitzwarine being
Constance Toeni rather than Clarice Auberville. I recognize this has
been much discussed over the years however I had managed to miss your
March post which I agree with the conclusion on.
I will be fascinated to see your theory on the relationship between
John Grandison and John Warenne. However I also see that apart from
the Auberville ancestry there are still many possibilities for a
relationship I have not explored through the Sanfords, Zouches and of
course the Grandisons.
Of course, I do wonder why I even tried to post on anything that
touches on the Fitzwarines. They would have to be one of the most
difficult families, what with all the Fulks.
cheers
Louise
<The...@aol.com> wrote ...
> Saturday, 23 August, 2003
>
>
> Dear Louise,
>
> I have a theory I am working on, which also would
> locate the relationship between John de Warenne (d. 1347)
> and John de Grandison, Bp of Exeter through the ancestry
> of Mabel FitzWarin. However, this does not lead to the
> Tosny/Tony family.
<snip>
>
> That being said, I find it most likely that the mother
> of Mabel FitzWarin was, in fact, Clarice d'Auberville. If
> we can solve the riddle of the d'Auberville descent, we
> will likely find the Warenne of the sought answer.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John *
> * John P. Ravilious
Todd A. Farmerie
> Dear John et. al.,
>
> I made the qualification that the relationship of 5th cousins once
> removed between John Warenne, Earl of Surrey and John Grandison,
> Bishop of Exeter as depending on the mother of Mabel Fitzwarine being
> Constance Toeni rather than Clarice Auberville. I recognize this has
> been much discussed over the years however I had managed to miss your
> March post which I agree with the conclusion on.
If I recall correctly, the Grandison descend from the Counts of
Savoy. If so, this could be their link, as John's paternal
grandmother was four generations down from Louis VI and Adelaide
of Savoy.
taf
Louise Staley
> If I recall correctly, the Grandison descend from the Counts of
> Savoy. If so, this could be their link, as John's paternal
> grandmother was four generations down from Louis VI and Adelaide
> of Savoy.
>
> taf
>
Have I got something completely wrong here? How do the Grandison's
descend from the Counts of Savoy?
Here's what I've got to 5 generations for the two Johns in question.
Ancestors of John Grandison Bishop of Exeter
1. John Grandison Bishop of Exeter
2. William Grandison Lord Grandison
3. Sibyl Tregoz
4. Pierre de Grandson, Sire de Grandson
5. Agnes von Neuenburg
6. Sir John Tregoz 1st Lord Tregoz
7. Mabel Fitzwarine
8. Ebal de Grandson, Sire de Grandson
9. Beatrice de Geneve (her half-brother married an Agnes de Savoie)
10. Ulrich von Neuenburg
11. Gertrud
12. Robert Tregoz Baron of Ewyas Harold
13. Juliana Cantalupe
14. Sir Fulk Fitzwarine
15. Clarice Auberville
16. Ebal de Grandson, Sire de Belmont
17. Jordane
18. Amedee, Comte de Geneve
19. Daughter de Domene
20. Ulrich von Neuenburg
21. Berta
24. Robert Tregoz
25. Sibyl Ewyas
26. William Cantalupe Lord Of Cantelupe
27. Millicent Gornai
28. Fulk Fitzwarine
29. Maud Vavasour
30. Sir William Auberville of Westenhanger
31. Isabel
Ancestors of Sir John Warenne 8th Earl of Warren and Surrey
1. Sir John Warenne 8th Earl of Warren and Surrey
2. William Warenne
3. Joan Vere
4. John Warenne 7th Earl of Warren and Surrey
5. Alix De Lusignan
6. Robert Vere 5th Earl of Oxford
7. Alice Sanford
8. William Warenne 6th Earl of Warren and Surrey
9. Maud Marshall
10. Hugh De Lusignan Comte de la Marche et d'Angouleme
11. Queen Isabella d'Angouleme
12. Hugh Vere 4th Earl of Oxford
13. Hawise Quincy
14. Gilbert Sanford Lord Sandford
15. Loretta Zouche
16. Hamelin Plantagenet Earl of Warenne
17. Isabel Warenne Countess of Surrey de jure
18. William Marshall 3rd Earl of Pembroke jure uxoris
19. Isabel Clare Countess of Pembroke de jure
20. Hugh de Lusignan Comte de la Marche (descendant of Louis VI &
Adele de Savoie)
21. Marie d'Angouleme
22. Aymer Tailefer Comte d'Angouleme
23. Alicia Courtenay (descendant of Louis VI & Adele de Savoie)
24. Robert Vere 3rd Earl of Oxford
25. Isabel Bolbec
26. Saher Quincy Earl of Winchester
27. Margaret Beaumont
30. Roger Zouche of Molton, DEV
31. Margaret
Cristopher Nash
>[SNIP]
>10. Hugh De Lusignan Comte de la Marche et d'Angouleme
>11. Queen Isabella d'Angouleme
>12.
[SNIP]
>20. Hugh de Lusignan Comte de la Marche (descendant of Louis VI &
>Adele de Savoie)
>21. Marie d'Angouleme
I wonder if you could say a bit more about 20's descent from Louis VI &
Adele de Savoie, and the identity of Marie d'Angouleme? I can't
quite figure the first (20 would not be comte de la Marche, BTW), and
so far as I know the mo. of 10 (Hugh who d. 1219) -- most widely
claimed to be Mathilde ('Taillefer', living 1181 & 1233, da. of
Wulgrin III, comte d'Angoulême) -- has been seriously disputed (e.g.
by Painter) or otherwise (more recently) left uncertain.
Thanks!
Cris
--
Louise Staley
Unfortunately, the short answer is no.
The mother of Hugh de Lusignan number 10 came from ES. I am a bit
confused here though since I thought it was number 20 that died in
1219, not number 10 and that number 10 died after Jan 15 1249. (BTW I
thought Painter referred to 20 as Count of La Marche). However, the
more fundamental point of whether Mathilde dau of Wulgrin is the
mother of Hugh is well taken. I have nothing more to add as to the
debate about Mathilde or how Agnes de Preuilly fits in here. Sorry.
On the descent from Louis VI and Adele de Savoie to Hugh de Lusignan,
I thought I got that from ES via Leo's database but this is wrong, the
descent from Louis VI and Adele is through Alicia Courtenay, mother of
Isabella d'Angouleme not through Hugh de Lusignan.
So 2 down, any more complete stuff-ups on my part? And is anyone any
closer to finding a descent from the Counts of Savoy to the
Grandisons?
Louise
Cristopher Nash wrote ...
Louise Staley
"Louise Staley" wrote in message ...
<snip>
>
> On the descent from Louis VI and Adele de Savoie to Hugh de
Lusignan,
> I thought I got that from ES via Leo's database but this is wrong,
the
> descent from Louis VI and Adele is through Alicia Courtenay, mother
of
> Isabella d'Angouleme not through Hugh de Lusignan.
This is not very clear. Leo's database is not incorrect, my reading of
it is.
Todd A. Farmerie
> Todd A. Farmerie wrote ...
>
>>If I recall correctly, the Grandison descend from the Counts of
>>Savoy. If so, this could be their link, as John's paternal
>>grandmother was four generations down from Louis VI and Adelaide
>>of Savoy.
>
> descend from the Counts of Savoy?
>
> Here's what I've got to 5 generations for the two Johns in question.
>
> Ancestors of John Grandison Bishop of Exeter
> 1. John Grandison Bishop of Exeter
> 2. William Grandison Lord Grandison
> 3. Sibyl Tregoz
What I had in mind was a note that William de Grandison married
Blanche, daughter of Louis de Savoy, Baron Vaud. If this is the
same William, he must have married twice.
Leo van de Pas
Dear Todd,
In my data base I have a Blanche de Savoie marrying a Pierre de Grandison,
not William/Guillaume, Source ES XI 154.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Todd A. Farmerie
>>What I had in mind was a note that William de Grandison married
>>Blanche, daughter of Louis de Savoy, Baron Vaud. If this is the
>>same William, he must have married twice.
>
>
> Dear Todd,
> In my data base I have a Blanche de Savoie marrying a Pierre de Grandison,
> not William/Guillaume, Source ES XI 154.
The above comes from AR6. I never looked into it further.
taf
Cristopher Nash
While this is going on, I wonder whether anyone has seen any recent
research re the origins of Agnes who m. Thomas Bardolf (who lived
1282-1328)? Sometimes thought da. of William de Grandison, Sgnr de
Grandison 'on Lake Neuchātel, Switzerland', by Blanche, da. of Louis
de Savoie, Baron de Vaud - see e.g. discussion, CP I ('Bardolf'),
418. CP XIV:64 treats this as unlikely.
Cheers,
Cris
--
Peter Stewart
The elder Hugh (#20 above) was indeed count of La Marche - you may
have his & his son's details confused as the genealogy of Lusignans
was awry by one generation from the presently accepted system until
the 1890s, and both men happened to die at Damietta in Egypt (nearly
30 years apart).
Hugh #20 possessed La Marche from 1199, soon after the death of King
Richard Lionheart. He declared against King John in 1200 and styled
himself "Hugo [Brunus] comes Marchiae" from then on. (Apart from
charter evidence, the events are covered in the chronicles of Alberic
de Troisfontaines and Bernard Itier.) He left for Palestine in 1218
and died at Damietta around 5 November 1219. This Hugh had married at
least twice and more probably three times - his widow was Mathilde
(not "Marie) of Angoulême, whose first cousin Isabelle (#11) had been
affianced to his son Hugh (#10: this arrangment was "gazumped" by King
John, until eventually accomplished, after his death, in 1220).
The recorded wives of this elder Hugh (#20) are Agatha de Preuilly
(married perhaps ca 1194, apparently as the widow of Bernard III,
viscount of Brosse, who died in 1193) and later Mathilde of Angoulême
who survived him.
The younger Hugh (#10) was probably born ca 1190 from an unknown first
marriage, and died of wounds received at the capture of Damietta after
Pentecost (6 June) 1249. I have speculated here before that his mother
_might_ have been a daughter of Raoul III, seigneur of Mauléon, but I
haven't studied the matter any further.
Peter Stewart
Leo van de Pas
According to ES III/4 Tafel 816, Hugues IX dit le Brun, Sire de Lusignan,
was married only twice, the date for the first marriage to Agnes de Preuilly
is not given, he marries after 1194 for the second time to Mahaut
d'Angouleme.
His one and only child Hugues X dit le Brun, Sire de Lusignan, Comte de La
Marche et d'Angouleme is by the first wife.
For pages 815 and 816 a considerable sources list is given.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Hugh Jones
> Dear Peter,
>
> According to ES III/4 Tafel 816, Hugues IX dit le Brun, Sire de Lusignan,
> was married only twice, the date for the first marriage to Agnes de Preuilly
> is not given, he marries after 1194 for the second time to Mahaut
> d'Angouleme.
>
> His one and only child Hugues X dit le Brun, Sire de Lusignan, Comte de La
> Marche et d'Angouleme is by the first wife.
>
> For pages 815 and 816 a considerable sources list is given.
>
> Best wishes
> Leo van de Pas
> Canberra, Australia
>
Now to digress in a big way have any of Gentlemen in your literature
in France seen any reference to Geoffroy of Bouteville,he was
Isabelle Taillefer Security man and attended her from 1243 onwards
plus he was with her when King john took her to England.Geoffroy
return in 1202 and reported he had a good time of it in King Johns
court.
All the best
Hugh Jones
Peter Stewart
>
> According to ES III/4 Tafel 816, Hugues IX dit le Brun, Sire de Lusignan,
> was married only twice, the date for the first marriage to Agnes de Preuilly
> is not given, he marries after 1194 for the second time to Mahaut
> d'Angouleme.
>
> His one and only child Hugues X dit le Brun, Sire de Lusignan, Comte de La
> Marche et d'Angouleme is by the first wife.
>
> For pages 815 and 816 a considerable sources list is given.
Thanks, Leo. I should have looked this up in ES III before, as it
appears to contain the solution - although not in the expected place.
Apart from the Lusignan tables that you cited, table 725 (Preuilly)
shows Agatha as marrying first "Bernard II [sic] Vcte de Brosse
1170/86-1190" and secondly "Hugues IX Sire de Lusignan dit le Brun Cte
de la Marche" whose death is placed at "Damville" [sic] on 5 November
1219.
However, table 774 (Brosse) gives Agatha de Preuilly as the second
wife of "Bernard III [sic] Vcte de Brosse", who occurs 1170/93. Here
it is stated correctly that her next husband, Hugues IX de Lusignan,
died at Damietta in November 1219. More to the point, it is noted that
Agatha's son by Bernard de Brosse, Viscount Gerard V, was recorded as
"frater" to "Hugues X [de Lusignan] Cte de la Marche" and that the
latter was known in 1204 as "nepos" to Agatha's father Pierre II de
Montrabel, seigneur of Preuilly.
Assuming this information is correct, Agatha was clearly the mother of
Hugues X (#10 in the ancestor list that started this thread).
It is a little odd, but by no means unexampled, that Hugues IX (#20)
should have married for apparently the first time in or after 1193 to
a woman widowed in that year. His own father had died young, and he
was an only son as far as we know; and he must have been aged around
27-28 at his marriage to Agatha since he was born before 12 November
1166, when he first occurs.
Peter Stewart
Todd A. Farmerie
> It is a little odd, but by no means unexampled, that Hugues IX (#20)
> should have married for apparently the first time in or after 1193 to
> a woman widowed in that year. His own father had died young, and he
> was an only son as far as we know;
Raoul I, Count of Eu, j.u., is explicitly called brother of Hugh
IX. (I can't give you a cite, off hand, but this has been posted
to the group, so try the archives.)
> and he must have been aged around
> 27-28 at his marriage to Agatha since he was born before 12 November
> 1166, when he first occurs.
In addition, there is the argument put forward by Painter -
considering the extent of the Eu inheritance, one finds it hard
to believe that an unencumbered Hugh wouldn't have taken
advantage of the opportunity to his own benefit in 1191, rather
than marrying the heiress to his younger brother Ralph I.
Anyone have Agatha's ancestry handy?
taf
Cristopher Nash
inanity on my part. (Knowing La Marche wasn't his by birth/marriage,
I'd forgotten it was he who'd 's'est emparé' of it.) Your appx
dating of an unknown first marriage for Hugh "20" (and assignment of
Hugh "10"'s mother to this coupling) is helpful too.
Cheers,
Cris
>c...@windsong.u-net.com (Cristopher Nash) wrote in message
>news:<a05100300bb6f961d273c@[10.0.1.2]>...
>> Louise Staley wrote --
>>
>> >[SNIP]
>> >10. Hugh De Lusignan Comte de la Marche et d'Angouleme
>> >11. Queen Isabella d'Angouleme
>> >12.
>>
>> [SNIP]
>>
>> >20. Hugh de Lusignan Comte de la Marche (descendant of Louis VI &
>> >Adele de Savoie)
>> >21. Marie d'Angouleme
>>
>> I wonder if you could say a bit more about 20's descent from Louis VI &
>> Adele de Savoie, and the identity of Marie d'Angouleme? I can't
>> quite figure the first (20 would not be comte de la Marche, BTW), and
>> so far as I know the mo. of 10 (Hugh who d. 1219) -- most widely
>> claimed to be Mathilde ('Taillefer', living 1181 & 1233, da. of
>> Wulgrin III, comte d'AngoulÍme) -- has been seriously disputed (e.g.
>> by Painter) or otherwise (more recently) left uncertain.
>
>The elder Hugh (#20 above) was indeed count of La Marche - you may
>have his & his son's details confused as the genealogy of Lusignans
>was awry by one generation from the presently accepted system until
>the 1890s, and both men happened to die at Damietta in Egypt (nearly
>30 years apart).
>
>Hugh #20 possessed La Marche from 1199, soon after the death of King
>Richard Lionheart. He declared against King John in 1200 and styled
>himself "Hugo [Brunus] comes Marchiae" from then on. (Apart from
>charter evidence, the events are covered in the chronicles of Alberic
>de Troisfontaines and Bernard Itier.) He left for Palestine in 1218
>and died at Damietta around 5 November 1219. This Hugh had married at
>least twice and more probably three times - his widow was Mathilde
>(not "Marie) of AngoulÍme, whose first cousin Isabelle (#11) had been
>affianced to his son Hugh (#10: this arrangment was "gazumped" by King
>John, until eventually accomplished, after his death, in 1220).
>
>The recorded wives of this elder Hugh (#20) are Agatha de Preuilly
>(married perhaps ca 1194, apparently as the widow of Bernard III,
>viscount of Brosse, who died in 1193) and later Mathilde of AngoulÍme
>who survived him.
>
>The younger Hugh (#10) was probably born ca 1190 from an unknown first
>marriage, and died of wounds received at the capture of Damietta after
>Pentecost (6 June) 1249. I have speculated here before that his mother
>_might_ have been a daughter of Raoul III, seigneur of MaulÈon, but I
>haven't studied the matter any further.
>
>Peter Stewart
--
Cristopher Nash
I lean - partly for the reasons you've mentioned - toward holding
fire in assuming your first posting was altogether wrong. But the ES
table 774 note you mention would be seductive if the source is sound
and I'll follow it up when I've the chance. I think it's peculiar
that at the 1996 Colloque much concerned with the Lusignan/Angoulême
connection (pub'd 1999 by the CNRS [Centre d'Etudes Supérieures de
Civ. Médiéval], "Isabelle d'Angoulême comtesse-reine et son temps
(1186-1246)") there was apparently no consideration of Agatha as a
wife of Hugues 'IX', let alone as mo. of Hugues 'X'. Thanks again.
Cris
Peter Stewart wrote --
--
Peter Stewart
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message news:<3F4C5E84...@interfold.com>...
> Peter Stewart wrote:
>
> > It is a little odd, but by no means unexampled, that Hugues IX (#20)
> > should have married for apparently the first time in or after 1193 to
> > a woman widowed in that year. His own father had died young, and he
> > was an only son as far as we know;
>
> Raoul I, Count of Eu, j.u., is explicitly called brother of Hugh
> IX. (I can't give you a cite, off hand, but this has been posted
> to the group, so try the archives.)
Thanks, Todd - this is another elementary blunder on my part, from
exactly the confusion I started out to correct (mixing up the
generations) and from a poor memory. List members are warned that an
acquired brain impairment causes me unpredictable trouble in simple
reading, while remembering was never my strong suit...
>
> > and he must have been aged around
> > 27-28 at his marriage to Agatha since he was born before 12 November
> > 1166, when he first occurs.
>
> In addition, there is the argument put forward by Painter -
> considering the extent of the Eu inheritance, one finds it hard
> to believe that an unencumbered Hugh wouldn't have taken
> advantage of the opportunity to his own benefit in 1191, rather
> than marrying the heiress to his younger brother Ralph I.
I was groping to recollect this, thinking it was a cousin rather than
brother, and then in haste gave up.
> Anyone have Agatha's ancestry handy?
Here's some of it, taken uncritically from the few secondary works
listed below:
1. Agatha
2. Pierre II Montrabel, sire de Preuilly, died at end of 1204
3. Aenor de Mauléon, died after 1204
4. Pierre I Montrabel, sire de Preuilly, last occurs 1151-56 (died 26
or 27 Nov)
5. NN
6. Uncertain - probably Ebles de Mauléon, sire de Fontenay & Talmont,
died ca 1190
7. Uncertain - Ebles married three times: (i) Eustacia de Lezay; (ii)
Isodis N; (iii) Alix du Puy de Fou
8. Eschivard I, sire de Preuilly, last occurs 1134 (died 28 Oct)
9. NN
16. Geoffroy III & II Jourdain, sire de Preuilly, comte de Vendôme (by
right of his wife), killed on crusade at Rama 27 May 1103
17. Eufrosine (Nafrine) de Nevers, countess of Vendôme, died after
1110
32. Geoffroy II, sire de Preuilly, murdered by the citizens of Angers
after 4 April 1067
33. Almodis N (_possibly_ de Blois), died before ca 1097
34. Fulco Anserulus (Foulques l'Oison), comte de Vendôme, died 21 Nov
1066
35. Petronilla de Château-Renaud, died 1 Nov 1078
64. Geoffroy I, sire de Preuilly & La Rocheposay, died ca 1040
65. Amelina N (_possibly_ de Blois), died ca 1065
68. Bodon (Bovin, also called Odo) de Nevers, died ca 1026/31
69. Adela d'Anjou, countess of Vendôme, died ca 1033/5 (possibly 26
Feb)
70. Renaud, seigneur of Château-Renaud
71. NN
Sources:
Dominique Barthélemy, _La société dans le comté de Vendôme, de l'an
Mil au XIVe siècle_ (Paris, 1993)
Martine Cao Carmichael de Baiglie, 'Savary de Mauléon (ca 1180-1233),
chevalier-troubadour poitevin: traîtrise et société aristocratique',
_Le Moyen Age_ 105 (1999) 269-303
_Europäische Stammtafeln_, neue Folge, edited by Detlev Schwennicke -
vol III/4, Das feudale Frankreich und sein Einfluss auf die Welt des
Mittelalters (Marburg, 1989); vol XIV, Les familles féodales de France
ii (Marburg 1991)
Peter Stewart