On Aug 24, 3:47 pm, John Higgins <
jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> FWIW I can confirm that the following generations of the Bevan
> pedigree in RPA (2004 ed.) are supported by Clark's Limbus Patrum
> (with pages indicated):
>
> 16. Catrin Vaughan, m. David Evans of the Great House, Neath
> Clark 82 (Evans of Gnoll) and 241 (Vaughan of Porthaml - wrong parents
> for Catrin, as previously discussed)
Do I take this correctly to mean that Clark doesn't identify her
parents in the Evans account on page 82, and does so incorrectly in
the Vaughan of Porthaml account on page 241? Or does he incorrectly
identify her parents in both? I'm being particular here because this
issue is going to boil down to what the Evans family told the herald
about Catrin's father. The William Vaughan who was of Porthaml (and
who was dead by 1553 because that was the year his widow Catherine
Havard was pardoned - this is in Evans's TAG article from 1983, by the
way, though Evans cites no source for his statement about Catherine,
nor does he point out that T.A. Glenn was thus in error on his
deathdate - 1564 - for William) was knighted. This is the father that
Clark, and Glenn & HOP (each following Clark), and PA3/RPA (following
Clark & Glenn) assign to Catrin. His first cousin, William Vaughan of
Trefeca (for whom we do not yet have any dates) - the father that
Bartrum assigns to Catrin - does not appear to have been knighted.
This may end up being an important way of telling them apart in
records. So if Clark in his Evan account on page 82 states that
Catrin's father was "William Vaughan, esquire" or "William Vaughan,
knight", this could point us in the right direction.
> 17. Mary Evans, m. (1) Edward Turberville, (2) Thomas Basset of
> Miscin
> Clark 82 (Evans of Gnoll) and 353 (Basset of Miscin) and 459
> (Turberville of Sutton)
I'm glad the Turbervilles of Sutton are in Clark because I couldn't
make heads or tails of them by Google-ing yesterday.
> 18. Catrin Basset, m. Richard ap Ieuan of Collenna
> Clark 354 (Basset of Miscin) and 136 (Prichard of Collenna)
>
> 19. Jane Richards, m. Ieuan ap John of Treverigg
> Clark 136 (Prichard of Collenna) [Clark has a few references to Bevan
> of Trevereig (sic) but does not include a pedigree for that family]
John, thank you so much for this. It's wonderful that you have easy
access to 'Limbus Patrum'. Thank you for sorting through and citing
the Clark pages for the Bevan descent the way they should have been
cited in PA3/RPA.
> So, whatever the merits of Clark's work may be, at least we have a
> source other than T. A. Glenn's unreliable work for this section of
> the line.
This of course begs the question: what are the merits of Clark's 1886
work, from someone like me who hasn't seen it.
> Now the task is to try to verify this in Bartrum or other
> welsh compilations - which is not an easy job.
And one that I have to be quick to admit is way beyond my expertise.
I'm anxious to explore Wales further on future UK trips, but I'm at a
complete loss when it comes to hunting down Welsh primary records.
That said, though, these families would have to be supported in record
beyond pedigrees. By the time we get down to John Bevan, we are
talking the 17th century and he did come from a landed family. The
Evanses of Collena & the Bevanses of Treverigg were not of the stature
of the Vaughans, but still were landed families, and would have to I
think, turn up in record. If nothing us, T.A. Glenn pointed us to the
existence of wills for two of them, and that was back in 1896.
Hopefully someone better versed in Welsh history & genealogy will know
where to turn up such records. I wonder would 'The Glamorgan County
History' series be of use here?
> Regarding Glenn's works, I've been skeptical for many years about
> their reliability, prompted in part by Gary Boyd Roberts' comments on
> Glenn in RD500 and RD600 and many of his published articles (which I
> believe were prompted by comments to GBR from William Addams
> Reitwiesner).
To give credit where it's due, Glenn was working in an era when
genealogical research in Wales, for an American, must have seemed as
daunting as climbing Mount Snowdon. It's taken us only 48 hours to
boil down this descent, can you imagine waiting months, if not years,
for replies to your inquires through the mail, as Glenn must have? My
biggest issue with Glenn was him not citing any sources for his
pedigree. But now I see his source had to have been Clark's 'Limbus
Patrum'. He must have viewed that book, published over a decade
before his own, as we view CP today. And Glenn did at least make an
effort to obtain Bevan's will and the will of his paternal
grandfather.
But, yes, I fully agree with you (and the late, talented Mr.
Reitweisner) that Glenn, because of his limitations, can't be viewed
as an authoritative source for any descent.
> It's hard to see why Faris and Richardson didn't
> recognize the need to make more use of Bartrum - especially
> Richardson, who certainly should have been aware of GBR's thoughts on
> this and was also familiar himself with Bartrum, as he cites it
> frquently for other Welsh lines.
So far (and I'm only 100 pages in and on the 'B's), my project of
entering into my database all of the Edward I/Edward III descents
which appear in PA3/RPA has led me to the conclusion that Douglas did
not do nearly enough due diligence on lines he inherited from previous
editions of the PA series. This line in particular, as you've pointed
out John, looks like it was merely repeated from the previous edition
without Richardson even going through the sources. The last we heard
from him he was busy trying to establish Blanche of Artois' death date
& burial through primary sources. I'd like to point out that he has
accounts of far more recent individuals in his books which would
benefit from that kind of scrutiny.
> With respect to Catrin Vaughan, Clark 241 follows exactly the pedigree
> of the branch of the Vaughans given by RPA - which we now know is not
> in agreement with Bartrum. In an earlier section of this Vaughan
> pedigree on p. 241, mention is made of Thomas, son of Roger Vaughan
> and Joan Whitney, from whom Bartrum (as cited by the Welsh Medieval
> Database) traces a descent to Catrin. But Clark does not carry this
> line far enough to emcompass Catrin (or her parents)
And if Clark was unaware of William Vaughan of Trefeca, then he may
have thought there was only the one Sir William Vaughan of Porthaml
who worked chronologically as Catrin's father.
> Although we can't get all the way to John Bevan the immigrant through
> Clark, a John Bevan is mentioned by Clark, p. 347 in a (very short)
> pedigree of the Awbrey [sic] family, where Catherine (not Barbara as
> in RPA) is said to have m. John Bevan, senior, of Trevereig (no
> mention of either of them going to Pennsylvania). Since Clark is the
> only source in RPA for this generation of the Aubrey/Awbrey line, one
> has to now wonder also where RPA (and Faris before RPA) came up with
> the name Barbara for John Bevan's wife.
Oh, this I can help with! T.A. Glenn is the source for the name
Barbara for Bevan's wife. He talks about her being named Catherine in
an Aubrey pedigree (so - there! - proof that Clark's 'Limbum Patrum'
was Glenn's major source), but points out her name is Barbara in the
record (John Bevan's first person account), and suggests that Bevan
either had two wives, or that her full name was Barbara Catherine. I
don't have time at the moment to link to a pdf of the exact page, but
it's in his Bevan account in 'Merion in the Welsh Tract'.
Regarding the discrepancy between Bartrum & Clark on the children of
Catrin Basset & Richard ap Ieuan of Collena. I can see Clark mis-
assigning one child (Jane Richards) to the couple, but mis-assigning
six? Perhaps Clark is the more accurate here. We are now in the
beginning of the 17th century with this generation. Perhaps Mary was
the couple's eldest child, and Bartrum was using a pedigree of the
family drawn up before the other six children were born? Again this
is where locating this family in primary records from the late-16th/
early-17th centuries could lead to a quick resolution for this issue.
> More doubts about the
> credibility of RPA....
IMO and FWIW, if Douglas stopped scrambling to go further & further
back in time in his series, and instead focused on honing the sources
& accounts of the lines he already has, he'd be doing everyone a
better service.
Thanks again, John, for being the Go-To Guy for Clark's 'Limbus
Patrum' and for casting your skilled eye on the details of this Bevan
line.
Cheers, ------Brad