RPA Addition: David Evans of the Great House

[Brad Verity]

PA3/RPA (2004), p. 105 (sub Bevan), provides only three facts for
Catrin Vaughan (dau of Sir William Vaughan of Porthaml, decended from
Edward III) & her husband David Evans: 1) their names; 2) that he was
of the Great House, Neath, Glamorganshire; and 3) that he was Sheriff
of Glamorgan in 1563.

There are 2 bios of David Evans in the HOP series, neither one a
source used by PA3/RPA:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/evans-%28yeuans%29-david-1523-68

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/evans-david-1568

These provide the further important genealogical facts that he was
born by 1523, that his will was written on 2 Feb. 1568, and proved 8
May 1568, that his parents were Evan ap David of Gnoll, Neath, and
Lucy, da. of Morgan Gwyn ap John ap Gruffydd of Cefn Iorwerth, and
that he and Catrin Vaughan had two sons and five daughters.

PA3/RPA provides 'Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Glamorganiae' (1886) by
Clark, p. 241 as a source for this couple, presumably from the Vaughan
end as the same page is cited for previous generations in the line.
HOP provides an additional page (82) in the 'Limbus' as one of its
sources, which would presumably provide information on the Evans end,
hopefully the details on the 7 children of the couple. Unfortunately,
I can't access 'Limbus' online thru Google Books. But it does again
make me wonder how closely examined were the sources cited to in PA3/
RPA, especially the ones carried over from earlier editions.

At any rate, it's nice to have further details on a very sketchy line
of descent from Edward III.

Cheers, ------Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Aug 23, 1:00 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> PA3/RPA (2004), p. 105 (sub Bevan), provides only three facts for
> Catrin Vaughan (dau of Sir William Vaughan of Porthaml, decended from
> Edward III)

Here's a conflict. The Welsh Medieval Database, apparently using
Bartrum as its source, has a completely different line of descent from
Sir Roger Vaughan (d. 1514) & Joan Whitney, for Catrin Vaughan, wife
of David Evans of the Great House, M.P.:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I60753&tree=Welsh

Joan Whitney m. Sir Roger Vaughan of Porthaml (d. 1514), and had
1) Thomas Vaughan of Tregwntr (yst son) m. Elizabeth ap Harry (Parry)
(d. after 1547), descended from Edward III thru Stradling/Beaufort,
and had
2) William Vaughan of Trefeca m. Jane Vaughan, dau of "Watkyn Vaughan
of Clâs-ar-Wy, Radnorshire & Jane ferch Ieuan", and had
3) Catrin Vaughan m. David ap Ieuan (alias Dafydd Evans) (the M.P.)

It should be noted that the Watkyn Vaughan of Clâs-ar-Wy, father of
Jane Vaughan in generation #2 above, is said to be son of William
Vaughan of Rhydhelyg, Herefordshire & his wife Anne Cornewall of
Burford, who is a descendant of Edward I.

So this Bevan line of descent from Edward III through the Vaughan of
Porthaml family is far from solid. Per the Welsh Medieval database,
Sir Roger Vaughan of Porthaml (d. 1514) had several illegitimate sons,
including one named Thomas. If Catrin Vaughan Evans actually descends
from one of those sons, then the whole descent from Constance of York
thru Joan Whitney goes away.

At least there is evidence that Elizabeth in Generation #1 above, the
daughter of Miles Harry of Newcourt, Herefordshire & his wife Alice
Milbourne, actually married a Vaughan, since she is mentioned by that
surname in the 1547 will of her sister-in-law Eleanor Scudamore
(though the link the Welsh Medieval database provides is no longer
valid). As it stands, though, we have no dates, nor yet any 16th-
century records, for most of the rest of these people, and I find it
rather irresponsible for books about royal ancestry to include this
line without mention of conflicting sources & pedigrees, or noting
that much further research is needed before it can be considered
probable, let alone certain.

Cheers, ------Brad

[John Higgins]

Brad:

I'm glad you noticed that the Welsh Medieval Database, apparently
citing Bartrum, has a different lineage for Catrin Vaughan, wife of
David Evans, as I was about to mention that. But her descent from
Thomas, the legitimate son of Roger Vaughan and Joan Whitney, (rather
than Roger's illegitimate son Thaoms) seems to be supported by the
chart from Bartrum that was cited by Brice Clagett in your other post
today. So the royal connection via Joan Whitney seems valid.

Clark's Limbus Patrum, p. 82 sub Evan of Knoll, does list the 7
children of David Evans and Catrin Vaughan, and it matches pretty
closely the enumeration of these children in the Welsh Nobility
Database (with the exception that Clark also includes a son Jenkin who
died unmarried). Clark carries the Evans line several generations
further, ending with a daughter Mary who married Sir Humphrey
Mackworth (Clark calls him a baronet, but he was actually the
grandfather of the 1st baronet of this family).

FWIW you're not alone in being unable to access Clark's work via
Google Books. Although the book was published in 1886 and is
obviously out of copyright, Google seems to think that the publishing
of a reprint edition (by a modern publisher specializing in such
editions) establishes a new copyright. An unfortunate decision on
Google's part...

As to the line in the 2004 RPA (labeled Bevan), it's carried forward
verbatim from the predecessor work of 1999 by David Faris. Faris
relied primarily on Clark, and Richardson apparently didn't bother to
check Bartrum for the 2004 edition.

[John Higgins]

On Aug 23, 4:38 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 23, 1:00 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > PA3/RPA (2004), p. 105 (sub Bevan), provides only three facts for
> > Catrin Vaughan (dau of Sir William Vaughan of Porthaml, decended from
> > Edward III)
>
> Here's a conflict.  The Welsh Medieval Database, apparently using
> Bartrum as its source, has a completely different line of descent from
> Sir Roger Vaughan (d. 1514) & Joan Whitney, for Catrin Vaughan, wife
> of David Evans of the Great House, M.P.:http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I60753&tree=Welsh
>
> Joan Whitney m. Sir Roger Vaughan of Porthaml (d. 1514), and had
> 1) Thomas Vaughan of Tregwntr (yst son) m. Elizabeth ap Harry (Parry)
> (d. after 1547), descended from Edward III thru Stradling/Beaufort,
> and had
> 2) William Vaughan of Trefeca m. Jane Vaughan, dau of "Watkyn Vaughan
> of Clâs-ar-Wy, Radnorshire & Jane ferch Ieuan", and had
> 3) Catrin Vaughan m. David ap Ieuan (alias Dafydd Evans) (the M.P.)
>
> It should be noted that the Watkyn Vaughan of Clâs-ar-Wy, father of
> Jane Vaughan in generation #2 above, is said to be son of William
> Vaughan of Rhydhelyg, Herefordshire & his wife Anne Cornewall of
> Burford, who is a descendant of Edward I.
>
>

> Cheers,                                          ------Brad

Brad:

How does this Anne Cornewall of Burford descend from Edward I? I see
that the Welsh Nobility Database identifies her father as Sir Thomas
Cornewall, and based on chronology this would probably be the Thomas
who died 1472. This would make her a descendant of Edward I through
Thomas' mother - and a descendant of King John through Thomas' father.
But I don't see the evidence supporting this Anne as daughter of this
Thomas. What am I missing?

[Brad Verity]

On Aug 23, 6:26 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'm glad you noticed that the Welsh Medieval Database, apparently
> citing Bartrum, has a different lineage for Catrin Vaughan, wife of
> David Evans, as I was about to mention that.

This is a fairly big discrepancy. It appears to stem from the fact
that there were two William Vaughans in this branch of the family: Sir
William Vaughan of Porthaml (d. bef. 1553), the one whom HOP & PA3/RPA
make her father, and William Vaughan of Trefeca (Sir William's first
cousin), whom Bartrum/Welsh Medieval database make Catrin's father.
PA3/RPA list exactly 3 sources for Catrin Vaughan:

1) Clark's 'Limbus Patrum Morganiae' (p. 241), which I can't access
online, but it needs to be determined exactly what Clark says about
Catrin in the Vaughan pedigree on that page.

2) 'Welsh Founders of Pennsylvania' Volume 1 (1911) by Thomas Allen
Glenn (p. 169). This work is available online thru Ancestry.com.
Page 169 is the middle of a narrative pedigree of the Griffith family
of Merion, and from what I can make out has nothing to do with the
Bevan descent at all. However, in other generations of the Bevan
descent, 'Merion in the Welsh Tract' (1896), a previous book by the
same genealogist, Thomas Allen Glenn, page 169, is cited as a source.
That work can also be found online here:
http://digital.library.villanova.edu/files/Pennsylvaniana/RadnorTownship/RadnorFriends/00004/00212.jpg

Pages 168-169 is an unsourced descent pedigree for John Bevan from
Edward III, clearly authored by Glenn, that has Bevan descending from
that monarch thru Lady Eleanor Somerset, dau of the 2nd Earl of
Worcester & mother of Watkin Vaughan of Talgarth. We know that is
complete error, and it's nice to now know that Thomas Allen Glenn in
1896 was the source for that error. The pedigree has "Catherine =
David Evans of Neath" as dau of "Sir William Vaughan of Porthaml died
1564" & "Catherine dr. of Jenkin Havard of Tredomen". Sir William
Vaughan's date of death is another error (see the bio of his son Sir
Roger Vaughan in HOP).

3) TAG Volume 59 (1983), page 1 - which I haven't seen.

Thomas Allen Glenn seems a competent enough Victorian-era genealogist,
but his pedigree is simply his own guesswork, flawed, and useless as a
confirmed source for anything. That leaves whatever Clark had to say
about Catrin Vaughan in 'Limbus' page 241, and the 1983 TAG article,
as the only sources that point to Catrin, wife of David Evans of the
Great House (by 1523-1568), being the daughter of Sir William Vaughan
of Porthaml. I'm not holding my breath.

> But her descent from
> Thomas, the legitimate son of Roger Vaughan and Joan Whitney, (rather
> than Roger's illegitimate son Thaoms) seems to be supported by the
> chart from Bartrum that was cited by Brice Clagett in your other post
> today.  So the royal connection via Joan Whitney seems valid.

Thank you very much for providing the Bartrum page in your other post
John - it's a huge help. It's certainly more promising than the one
set forth in PA3/RPA. But if we can't confirm the descent through
16th-century documents, it's simply Bartrum's best guesswork from
unsourced Welsh pedigrees.

> Clark's Limbus Patrum, p. 82 sub Evan of Knoll, does list the 7
> children of David Evans and Catrin Vaughan, and it matches pretty
> closely the enumeration of these children in the Welsh Nobility
> Database (with the exception that Clark also includes a son Jenkin who
> died unmarried).  Clark carries the Evans line several generations
> further, ending with a daughter Mary who married Sir Humphrey
> Mackworth (Clark calls him a baronet, but he was actually the
> grandfather of the 1st baronet of this family).

Thank you for checking this John. What exactly does Clark have to say
on p. 82 sub Evan of Knoll about who Catrin Vaughan's father was?
Does she also appear in Clark's Vaughan account on page 241?

> FWIW you're not alone in being unable to access Clark's work via
> Google Books.  Although the book was published in 1886 and is
> obviously out of copyright, Google seems to think that the publishing
> of a reprint edition (by a modern publisher specializing in such
> editions) establishes a new copyright.  An unfortunate decision on
> Google's part...

Absolute agreement - very frustrating!

> As to the line in the 2004 RPA (labeled Bevan), it's carried forward
> verbatim from the predecessor work of 1999 by David Faris.  Faris
> relied primarily on Clark, and Richardson apparently didn't bother to
> check Bartrum for the 2004 edition.

Very irresponsible on both their parts. I've now taken the line down
to John Bevan of Treverigg (c.1646-1726), the New World immigrant, and
of course there are more problems. Thomas Allen Glenn is the only
source for making Bevan's mother the great-granddaughter of Catrin
Vaughan & David Evans of the Great House. He provides no reasoning or
sources for this affiliation other than his flawed pedigree linked to
above. Neither Bevan's own will, or the will of his paternal
grandfather, both of which Allen quote from, provide any support that
Bevan's mother was who Allen asserts.

Here is the Welsh Medieval database page for Catrin Basset,
granddaughter of David Evans & Catrin Vaughan, and the woman Allen
assigns as John Bevan's maternal grandmother:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I49329&tree=Welsh

She is only assigned a single daughter, Mary. There is no daughter
Jane Richards, wife of Ieuan ap John of Treverigg and mother of John
Bevan. I hesitate to say that this Bevan line completely fails, but I
must admit it is not looking very promising.

The good news is that Allen goes into detail about John Bevan's will,
and on page 176 mentions that he made brother-in-law William Aubrey of
Pencoed one of the overseers:
http://digital.library.villanova.edu/files/Pennsylvaniana/RadnorTownship/RadnorFriends/00004/00219.jpg

This confirms his wife Barbara's inclusion in the Aubrey family. PA3/
RPA sub Aubrey (page 53) has Bevan's wife Barbara as daughter of
William Aubrey & Elizabeth Thomas. The only source it cites for this
is again Clark's 'Limbus Patrum Morganiae', this time page 347. No
dates are given for Barbara, but if Richardson had bothered to read
the sources he cited to, he'd find that Thomas Allen Glenn quoted John
Bevan on page 174:
http://digital.library.villanova.edu/files/Pennsylvaniana/RadnorTownship/RadnorFriends/00004/00217.jpg

Bevan states that his wife "quietly departed this life the 26th of the
eleventh month, 1710; aged seventy-three years, and about four
months". I don't know how to work out the exact dates using the
Quaker method, but I come up with a birthdate of about 1637 for
Barbara Aubrey. But her paternal grandfather, William Aubrey of
Pencoed, Rector of Pendoylon, was said to be born in 1602. It's
highly unlikely he'd be a grandfather at age 35. Was Barbara his
daughter instead? If so, she loses her descent from Edward III (which
was thru Elizabeth Thomas, the woman assigned by PA3/RPA as her
mother), though she would retain her Edward I descent since Rector
William's wife Jane Mathew was descened from that monarch.

I wonder how many other PA3/RPA descents will hold up under close
scrutiny? I have a feeling that any which involve Welsh families will
need a lot of further research before they can be considered sound.

Cheers, ----
Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Aug 23, 8:35 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> How does this Anne Cornewall of Burford descend from Edward I?  I see
> that the Welsh Nobility Database identifies her father as Sir Thomas
> Cornewall, and based on chronology this would probably be the Thomas
> who died 1472.   This would make her a descendant of Edward I through
> Thomas' mother - and a descendant of King John through Thomas' father.

Edward I had
1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of
Hereford (1276-1322), and had
2) Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of
Ormond (1305-1338), and had
3) Pernel Butler (c.1335-1368) m. Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot (c.
1332-1387), and had
4) Richard, 4th Lord Talbot (1361-1396) m. Ankaret Lestrange
(1361-1413), and had
5) Alice Talbot (d. 1436) m. 1) Sir Thomas Barre, heir of Rotherwas
(d. 1420), and had
6) Elizabeth Barre (c.1414-1468) m. Sir Edmund Cornewall, heir of
Burford (c.1382-1435), and had
7) Thomas Cornewall of Burford (c.1431-aft.1472) m. Elizabeth Lenthall
(d. 1489), and had
8) Anne Cornewall m. William Vaughan of Rhydhelyg

> But I don't see the evidence supporting this Anne as daughter of this
> Thomas.  What am I missing?

According to the sources cited by the Welsh Medieval database, the
keys are Bartrum & the 1634 Visitation of Hereford, which is not
available online. I have no primary documentation that supports the
marriage. It is another that may fail under closer scrutiny, though
chronology favours it since William Vaughan of Rhydhelyg is said to
have been the son of Watkin Vaughan of Bredwardine, in turn the eldest
son of Roger Vaughan of Bredwardine (d. at Agincourt 1415), which
matches up nicely to generations #5 thru #7 above.

I would love to find a good detailed account of the Cornewalls of
Burford post-1400, as putting together this family has been mere
patchwork on my part for the past few years. As the CIPM & HOP series
begin to delve further into the 15th century, perhaps more light will
be cast.

Cheers, -----------Brad

[Wjhonson]

Edmund wasn't the "heir" of Burford unless you mean something more loose like "heir apparent" or "heir in his issue" as he d.v.p. at Cologne, his father the Baron lived to 1443. We don't know the year Edmund was born, he was most likely an adult by the time his two known children were born by 1435. I have him born *by* 1388 but that's most likely just an attempt to not make him a dirty old man when he marries Elizabeth Barre as a young woman of not more than 20.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message

[Brad Verity]

On Aug 23, 11:48 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> 3) TAG Volume 59 (1983), page 1 - which I haven't seen.

> That leaves whatever Clark had to say
> about Catrin Vaughan in 'Limbus' page 241, and the 1983 TAG article,
> as the only sources that point to Catrin, wife of David Evans of the
> Great House (by 1523-1568), being the daughter of Sir William Vaughan
> of Porthaml.  I'm not holding my breath.

Hal Bradley has very kindly sent me a scan of Page 1 of TAG 59
(1983). It is an article by Charles Evans entitled "A Royal Descent
of John Bevan of Treverigg, Glamorganshire, Wales, and of Merion in
the Welsh Tract, Pennsylvania". Evans immediately debunks the Lady
Eleanor Somerset descent for John Bevan, stating "such a descent is
completely false and chronologically impossible", though he doesn't
provide any further explanation about why this is so.

And as I feared, Evans provides no primary evidence in discussing the
Bevan descent - he merely points back to Thomas Allen Glenn's account
of the Bevans in his 'Merion in the Welsh Tract' (1896). On the two
key problem generations, Evans has this to say:

1) Jane Richards, mother of John Bevan, & her parents: "John Bevan was
the son of Evan ap John, of Treverigg, who married about 1664 Jane,
daughter of Richard ap Evan, of Collena, an estate in Llantrissant
parish, by Catherine Basset, daughter of Thomas Basset of Miscin. The
Bassets had been established in Glamorganshire since the fourteenth
century (G.T. Clark, 'Limbus Patrum Morganiae et
Glamorganiae' (1886))." Unless Clark provides info on the marriage of
Evan ap John of Treverigg to Jane, daughter of Richard ap Evan of
Collena & Catherine Basset (and Evans doesn't cite to a specific page
in Clark), then Thomas Allen Glenn remains the sole source for this
marriage, and we know Glenn provides no source of his own for it, and
the marriage is not backed up by Bartrum/Welsh Medieval database.

2) Catrin Vaughan, wife of David Evans of the Great House, & her
parents: "Mary Evans was the daughter of David Evans of the Great
House, Neath, sheriff of Glamorganshire 1562/3, by Catherine Vaughan,
daughter of Sir William Vaughan, of Porthaml (G.T. Clark, op. cit.
82)." Thanks to John Higgins, we know that page 82 of Clark regards
the Evans of Knoll family. It should be pointed out that PA3/RPA does
not cite to Clark page 82 as a source for the Evans/Vaughan couple,
but rather to Clark page 241. This would appear then to be a case of
another source (Evans's TAG article) that Richardson cites to in PA3/
RPA that wasn't read carefully. We need to know if Clark in his
'Limbus' - either on page 82 or page 241 - identifies the father of
Catrin Vaughan Evans. If not, then Thomas Allen Glenn & the David
Evans bios in HOP (which also cite back to Clark page 82) remain the
only sources for her paternity. We now know they are in conflict with
Bartrum.

On Aug 24, 7:09 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

> Edmund wasn't the "heir" of Burford unless you mean something more loose like "heir apparent" or "heir in his issue" as he d.v.p. at Cologne, his father the Baron lived to 1443.

I meant it in the heir apparent sense, as I knew he died before his
father.

> We don't know the year Edmund was born, he was most likely an adult by the time his two known children were born by 1435.  I have him born *by* 1388 but that's most likely just an attempt to not make him a dirty old man when he marries Elizabeth Barre as a young woman of not more than 20.

LOL. I put the Alice Talbot/Barre/Cornewall lines together some years
back before I started my database. Unfortunately I can't recall how I
arrived at the birthdate of about 1382 for Edmund. But by 1388 works
just as well.

Cheers, -------Brad

[loren...@merck.com]

On Thursday, August 23, 2012 4:00:54 PM UTC-4, Brad Verity wrote:
> PA3/RPA (2004), p. 105 (sub Bevan), provides only three facts for Catrin Vaughan (dau of Sir William Vaughan of Porthaml, decended from Edward III) & her husband David Evans: 1) their names; 2) that he was of the Great House, Neath, Glamorganshire; and 3) that he was Sheriff of Glamorgan in 1563. There are 2 bios of David Evans in the HOP series, neither one a source used by PA3/RPA: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/evans-%28yeuans%29-david-1523-68 http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/evans-david-1568 These provide the further important genealogical facts that he was born by 1523, that his will was written on 2 Feb. 1568, and proved 8 May 1568, that his parents were Evan ap David of Gnoll, Neath, and Lucy, da. of Morgan Gwyn ap John ap Gruffydd of Cefn Iorwerth, and that he and Catrin Vaughan had two sons and five daughters. PA3/RPA provides 'Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Glamorganiae' (1886) by Clark, p. 241 as a source for this couple, presumably from the Vaughan end as the same page is cited for previous generations in the line. HOP provides an additional page (82) in the 'Limbus' as one of its sources, which would presumably provide information on the Evans end, hopefully the details on the 7 children of the couple. Unfortunately, I can't access 'Limbus' online thru Google Books. But it does again make me wonder how closely examined were the sources cited to in PA3/ RPA, especially the ones carried over from earlier editions. At any rate, it's nice to have further details on a very sketchy line of descent from Edward III. Cheers, ------Brad

Hi: On a posting by William Adams Reitwiesner concerning the ancestry of Evan Bevan and John Bevan. WAS has the following: John Bevan as son of Evan ap John and Jane Evans[GTC 136]. Jane Evans is the daugther of Richard ap Ieuan of Collena [WG2 Ein ap G.19 A2] and Catherine Bassett [GTC 352]. He listed in his notes that GTC was for Clark's work but not what WG stood for. I suppose these were his sources for his statements. Also the Medieval Welsh site that only listed Mary as a daughter stated as a source the GOLDEN BOOK OF PEDIGREES. I have tried to access this online but the site is offline for maintenance. The Bassett genealogies are on p218-223. It would be good to see what is written there. It seems they only usede as sources Golden Book and Bartrum. Regards:Loren Varga

[John Higgins]

On Aug 24, 8:44 am, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 23, 11:48 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > 3) TAG Volume 59 (1983), page 1 - which I haven't seen.
> > That leaves whatever Clark had to say
> > about Catrin Vaughan in 'Limbus' page 241, and the 1983 TAG article,
> > as the only sources that point to Catrin, wife of David Evans of the
> > Great House (by 1523-1568), being the daughter of Sir William Vaughan
> > of Porthaml.  I'm not holding my breath.
>
> Hal Bradley has very kindly sent me a scan of Page 1 of TAG 59
> (1983).  It is an article by Charles Evans entitled "A Royal Descent
> of John Bevan of Treverigg, Glamorganshire, Wales, and of Merion in
> the Welsh Tract, Pennsylvania".  Evans immediately debunks the Lady
> Eleanor Somerset descent for John Bevan, stating "such a descent is
> completely false and chronologically impossible", though he doesn't
> provide any further explanation about why this is so.
>
> And as I feared, Evans provides no primary evidence in discussing the
> Bevan descent - he merely points back to Thomas Allen Glenn's account
> of the Bevans in his 'Merion in the Welsh Tract' (1896).  On the two
> key problem generations, Evans has this to say:
>
> 1) Jane Richards, mother of John Bevan, & her parents: "John Bevan was
> the son of Evan ap John, of Treverigg, who married about 1664 Jane,

> daughter of Richard ap Evan, ofCollena, an estate in Llantrissant

> parish, by Catherine Basset, daughter of Thomas Basset of Miscin. The
> Bassets had been established in Glamorganshire since the fourteenth
> century (G.T. Clark, 'Limbus Patrum Morganiae et
> Glamorganiae' (1886))." Unless Clark provides info on the marriage of

> Evan ap John of Treverigg to Jane, daughter of Richard ap Evan ofCollena& Catherine Basset (and Evans doesn't cite to a specific page

> in Clark), then Thomas Allen Glenn remains the sole source for this
> marriage, and we know Glenn provides no source of his own for it, and
> the marriage is not backed up by Bartrum/Welsh Medieval database.
>
> 2) Catrin Vaughan, wife of David Evans of the Great House, & her
> parents: "Mary Evans was the daughter of David Evans of the Great
> House, Neath, sheriff of Glamorganshire 1562/3, by Catherine Vaughan,
> daughter of Sir William Vaughan, of Porthaml (G.T. Clark, op. cit.
> 82)." Thanks to John Higgins, we know that page 82 of Clark regards
> the Evans of Knoll family.  It should be pointed out that PA3/RPA does
> not cite to Clark page 82 as a source for the Evans/Vaughan couple,
> but rather to Clark page 241. This would appear then to be a case of
> another source (Evans's TAG article) that Richardson cites to in PA3/
> RPA that wasn't read carefully.  We need to know if Clark in his
> 'Limbus' - either on page 82 or page 241 - identifies the father of
> Catrin Vaughan Evans.  If not, then Thomas Allen Glenn & the David
> Evans bios in HOP (which also cite back to Clark page 82) remain the
> only sources for her paternity.  We now know they are in conflict with
> Bartrum.

> Cheers,                                   -------Brad

FWIW I can confirm that the following generations of the Bevan
pedigree in RPA (2004 ed.) are supported by Clark's Limbus Patrum
(with pages indicated):

16. Catrin Vaughan, m. David Evans of the Great House, Neath
Clark 82 (Evans of Gnoll) and 241 (Vaughan of Porthaml - wrong parents
for Catrin, as previously discussed)

17. Mary Evans, m. (1) Edward Turberville, (2) Thomas Basset of
Miscin
Clark 82 (Evans of Gnoll) and 353 (Basset of Miscin) and 459
(Turberville of Sutton)

18. Catrin Basset, m. Richard ap Ieuan of Collenna
Clark 354 (Basset of Miscin) and 136 (Prichard of Collenna)

19. Jane Richards, m. Ieuan ap John of Treverigg
Clark 136 (Prichard of Collenna) [Clark has a few references to Bevan
of Trevereig (sic) but does not include a pedigree for that family]

So, whatever the merits of Clark's work may be, at least we have a
source other than T. A. Glenn's unreliable work for this section of
the line. Now the task is to try to verify this in Bartrum or other
welsh compilations - which is not an easy job.

Regarding Glenn's works, I've been skeptical for many years about
their reliability, prompted in part by Gary Boyd Roberts' comments on
Glenn in RD500 and RD600 and many of his published articles (which I
believe were prompted by comments to GBR from William Addams
Reitwiesner). It's hard to see why Faris and Richardson didn't
recognize the need to make more use of Bartrum - especially
Richardson, who certainly should have been aware of GBR's thoughts on
this and was also familiar himself with Bartrum, as he cites it
frquently for other Welsh lines.

With respect to Catrin Vaughan, Clark 241 follows exactly the pedigree
of the branch of the Vaughans given by RPA - which we now know is not
in agreement with Bartrum. In an earlier section of this Vaughan
pedigree on p. 241, mention is made of Thomas, son of Roger Vaughan
and Joan Whitney, from whom Bartrum (as cited by the Welsh Medieval
Database) traces a descent to Catrin. But Clark does not carry this
line far enough to emcompass Catrin (or her parents)

Although we can't get all the way to John Bevan the immigrant through
Clark, a John Bevan is mentioned by Clark, p. 347 in a (very short)
pedigree of the Awbrey [sic] family, where Catherine (not Barbara as
in RPA) is said to have m. John Bevan, senior, of Trevereig (no
mention of either of them going to Pennsylvania). Since Clark is the
only source in RPA for this generation of the Aubrey/Awbrey line, one
has to now wonder also where RPA (and Faris before RPA) came up with
the name Barbara for John Bevan's wife. More doubts about the
credibility of RPA....

[Brad Verity]

On Aug 24, 11:46 am, loren_va...@merck.com wrote:
>
> Hi: On a posting by William Adams Reitwiesner concerning the ancestry of Evan Bevan and John Bevan. WAS has the following: John Bevan as son of Evan ap John and Jane Evans[GTC 136].

Thank you for this reference, Loren. This is a new page in Clark's
'Limbus' - page 136 - which needs to be added as a source for the
Bevan descent.

>Jane Evans is the daugther of Richard ap Ieuan of Collena [WG2 Ein ap G.19 A2] and Catherine Bassett [GTC 352].

PA3/RPA cites Clark 'Limbus' page 354 as evidence for the marriage of
Catherine Basset to Richard ap Ieuan of Collena, and cites Clark pages
348-349, 353, as evidence for the marriage of Catherine's parents
Thomas Basset of Miscin & Mary Evans. So WAR's citing of page 352 is
yet another new page in Clark to add to the citations for the Bevan
descent. PA3/RPA gives a total of 5 pages in Clark as sources for the
Bevan descent: 241, 348-349, 353, 354. To those we can add 3 pages:
82, 136 and 352. Clark's 'Limbus' seems to be the key piece of
evidence for this descent.

>He listed in his notes that GTC was for Clark's work but not what WG stood for.

WG = Welsh Genealogies?

>I suppose these were his sources for his statements. Also the Medieval Welsh site that only listed Mary as a daughter stated as a source the GOLDEN BOOK OF PEDIGREES. I have tried to access this online but the site is offline for maintenance. The Bassett genealogies are on p218-223. It would be good to see what is written there.

It would be very good. This Bevan descent may come down to Clark
'Limbus' vs. Bartrum.

>It seems they only usede as sources Golden Book and Bartrum. Regards:Loren Varga

Thanks again & Cheers, -------Brad

[John Higgins]

On Aug 24, 11:46 am, loren_va...@merck.com wrote:

> On Thursday, August 23, 2012 4:00:54 PM UTC-4, Brad Verity wrote:

> > PA3/RPA (2004), p. 105 (sub Bevan), provides only three facts for Catrin Vaughan (dau of Sir William Vaughan of Porthaml, decended from Edward III) & her husband David Evans: 1) their names; 2) that he was of the Great House, Neath, Glamorganshire; and 3) that he was Sheriff of Glamorgan in 1563. There are 2 bios of David Evans in the HOP series, neither one a source used by PA3/RPA:http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/evan...http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/evan...These provide the further important genealogical facts that he was born by 1523, that his will was written on 2 Feb. 1568, and proved 8 May 1568, that his parents were Evan ap David of Gnoll, Neath, and Lucy, da. of Morgan Gwyn ap John ap Gruffydd of Cefn Iorwerth, and that he and Catrin Vaughan had two sons and five daughters. PA3/RPA provides 'Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Glamorganiae' (1886) by Clark, p. 241 as a source for this couple, presumably from the Vaughan end as the same page is cited for previous generations in the line. HOP provides an additional page (82) in the 'Limbus' as one of its sources, which would presumably provide information on the Evans end, hopefully the details on the 7 children of the couple. Unfortunately, I can't access 'Limbus' online thru Google Books. But it does again make me wonder how closely examined were the sources cited to in PA3/ RPA, especially the ones carried over from earlier editions. At any rate, it's nice to have further details on a very sketchy line of descent from Edward III. Cheers, ------Brad
>
> Hi: On a posting by William Adams Reitwiesner concerning the ancestry of Evan Bevan and John Bevan. WAS has the following: John Bevan as son of Evan ap John and Jane Evans[GTC 136]. Jane Evans is the daugther of Richard ap Ieuan ofCollena[WG2 Ein ap G.19 A2] and Catherine Bassett [GTC 352]. He listed in his notes that GTC was for Clark's work but not what WG stood for. I suppose these were his sources for his statements. Also the Medieval Welsh site that only listed Mary as a daughter stated as a source the GOLDEN BOOK OF PEDIGREES. I have tried to access this online but the site is offline for maintenance. The Bassett genealogies are on p218-223. It would be good to see what is written there. It seems they only usede as sources Golden Book and Bartrum. Regards:Loren Varga

I can't find the mentioned post of William Addams Reitwiesner in the
archives of the group, but his reference to "WG2 Ein ap G.19 A2" is
clearly a reference to Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, and specifically
to the chart which Bartrum labels "Einion ap Gollwyn 19 (A2)", which
is here:
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5131/EINION%20AP%20GOLLWYN%2019%28A2%29_624.png?sequence=4

As Brad has previously mentioned (citing the Welsh Medieval Database),
this chart indicates that Catrin Basset and Richard ab Ieuan of
Collenna had only one child, a daughter Mary. But the pedigree for
Prichard of Collenna on p. 136 of Clark's Limbus Patrum lists 7
children (including mary), of whom the youngest was Jane who mar. Evan
John [= Ieuan ap John] of Trevereig. So, once again Bartrum and Clark
disagree....

[Wjhonson]

https://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1ACAW_ENUS365&=&q=%22john+bevan%22+reitsweiner&oq=%22john+bevan%22+reitsweiner&gs_l=igoogle.3...164.6732.0.6852.23.15.0.8.0.0.107.1182.14j1.15.0...0.0...1ac.CJw9efqJoRg#hl=en&rlz=1G1ACAW_ENUS365&sclient=psy-ab&q=site:www.wargs.com+bevan&oq=site:www.wargs.com+bevan&gs_l=serp.3...3666.4498.6.4716.6.6.0.0.0.0.61.337.6.6.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.Gg3i5hHPer8&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=d31f8fe11fc67001&biw=1174&bih=771

Or Google for
site:www.wargs.com bevan

<<I can't find the mentioned post of William Addams Reitwiesner in the
archives of the group, >>

-----Original Message-----
From: John Higgins <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>

[John Higgins]

I agree with the pedigree above through geenration 7: Thomas Cornewall
9d. 1472) and Elizabeth Lenthall. And chronologically it is likely
that Anne Cornewall Vaughan is a daughter of this couple, but I still
don't see the evidence that supports this.

Anne Cornewall's entry in the Welsh Medieval Database is here:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I43514&tree=Welsh
It gives only her father's name (no mother) and no ancestry beyond the
father.

A separate entry for the Thomas Cornewall who mar. Elizabeth Lenthall
is here:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I133345&tree=Welsh
But it doesn't list Anne among the children of this couple. I can't
see any reference in either entry to a 1634 Herefordshire visitation,
and I can't readily verify this in Bartrum. So...what am I missing?

One place to start for the Cornewall family is "The House of
Cornewall" (1908), available (and downloadable) via the Internet
Archive. But this source also does not show Anne as a daughter of
this couple.

[John Higgins]

An interesting addition:

It turns out that Clark p. 116 does have a pedigree of Bevan of
Trvereig, although it's not labeled as such and is rather sketchy.
The pertinent generation of this pedigree is as follows:

Jevan [sic] ap John, m. Jane, d. of Richard ap Evan of Collenna, and
had: 1. A son. 2. A son. 3. Charles, m. a d. of Morgan ap Evan of
Gelligaled. 4. Evan, m. Catherine, d. of Griffith ______ of Gartha
Gaba (?) [question mark is in Clark's text]

The next generation (and the last in the pedigree) has this cryptic
entry:
_____ ap Jevan, m. Barbara, d. of ______ of Wenvoe.

It's possible that this is the origin of the statement that the wife
of the immigrant John Bevan was named Barbara - although it'[s a
pretty weak link.

[Brad Verity]

On Aug 24, 3:47 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> FWIW I can confirm that the following generations of the Bevan
> pedigree in RPA (2004 ed.) are supported by Clark's Limbus Patrum
> (with pages indicated):
>
> 16.  Catrin Vaughan, m. David Evans of the Great House, Neath
> Clark 82 (Evans of Gnoll) and 241 (Vaughan of Porthaml - wrong parents
> for Catrin, as previously discussed)

Do I take this correctly to mean that Clark doesn't identify her
parents in the Evans account on page 82, and does so incorrectly in
the Vaughan of Porthaml account on page 241? Or does he incorrectly
identify her parents in both? I'm being particular here because this
issue is going to boil down to what the Evans family told the herald
about Catrin's father. The William Vaughan who was of Porthaml (and
who was dead by 1553 because that was the year his widow Catherine
Havard was pardoned - this is in Evans's TAG article from 1983, by the
way, though Evans cites no source for his statement about Catherine,
nor does he point out that T.A. Glenn was thus in error on his
deathdate - 1564 - for William) was knighted. This is the father that
Clark, and Glenn & HOP (each following Clark), and PA3/RPA (following
Clark & Glenn) assign to Catrin. His first cousin, William Vaughan of
Trefeca (for whom we do not yet have any dates) - the father that
Bartrum assigns to Catrin - does not appear to have been knighted.
This may end up being an important way of telling them apart in
records. So if Clark in his Evan account on page 82 states that
Catrin's father was "William Vaughan, esquire" or "William Vaughan,
knight", this could point us in the right direction.

> 17.  Mary Evans, m. (1) Edward Turberville, (2) Thomas Basset of
> Miscin
> Clark 82 (Evans of Gnoll) and 353 (Basset of Miscin) and 459
> (Turberville of Sutton)

I'm glad the Turbervilles of Sutton are in Clark because I couldn't
make heads or tails of them by Google-ing yesterday.

> 18.  Catrin Basset, m. Richard ap Ieuan of Collenna
> Clark 354 (Basset of Miscin) and 136 (Prichard of Collenna)
>
> 19.  Jane Richards, m. Ieuan ap John of Treverigg
> Clark 136 (Prichard of Collenna)  [Clark has a few references to Bevan
> of Trevereig (sic) but does not include a pedigree for that family]

John, thank you so much for this. It's wonderful that you have easy
access to 'Limbus Patrum'. Thank you for sorting through and citing
the Clark pages for the Bevan descent the way they should have been
cited in PA3/RPA.

> So, whatever the merits of Clark's work may be, at least we have a
> source other than T. A. Glenn's unreliable work for this section of
> the line.

This of course begs the question: what are the merits of Clark's 1886
work, from someone like me who hasn't seen it.

> Now the task is to try to verify this in Bartrum or other
> welsh compilations - which is not an easy job.

And one that I have to be quick to admit is way beyond my expertise.
I'm anxious to explore Wales further on future UK trips, but I'm at a
complete loss when it comes to hunting down Welsh primary records.

That said, though, these families would have to be supported in record
beyond pedigrees. By the time we get down to John Bevan, we are
talking the 17th century and he did come from a landed family. The
Evanses of Collena & the Bevanses of Treverigg were not of the stature
of the Vaughans, but still were landed families, and would have to I
think, turn up in record. If nothing us, T.A. Glenn pointed us to the
existence of wills for two of them, and that was back in 1896.
Hopefully someone better versed in Welsh history & genealogy will know
where to turn up such records. I wonder would 'The Glamorgan County
History' series be of use here?

> Regarding Glenn's works, I've been skeptical for many years about
> their reliability, prompted in part by Gary Boyd Roberts' comments on
> Glenn in RD500 and RD600 and many of his published articles (which I
> believe were prompted by comments to GBR from William Addams
> Reitwiesner).

To give credit where it's due, Glenn was working in an era when
genealogical research in Wales, for an American, must have seemed as
daunting as climbing Mount Snowdon. It's taken us only 48 hours to
boil down this descent, can you imagine waiting months, if not years,
for replies to your inquires through the mail, as Glenn must have? My
biggest issue with Glenn was him not citing any sources for his
pedigree. But now I see his source had to have been Clark's 'Limbus
Patrum'. He must have viewed that book, published over a decade
before his own, as we view CP today. And Glenn did at least make an
effort to obtain Bevan's will and the will of his paternal
grandfather.

But, yes, I fully agree with you (and the late, talented Mr.
Reitweisner) that Glenn, because of his limitations, can't be viewed
as an authoritative source for any descent.

> It's hard to see why Faris and Richardson didn't
> recognize the need to make more use of Bartrum - especially
> Richardson, who certainly should have been aware of GBR's thoughts on
> this and was also familiar himself with Bartrum, as he cites it
> frquently for other Welsh lines.

So far (and I'm only 100 pages in and on the 'B's), my project of
entering into my database all of the Edward I/Edward III descents
which appear in PA3/RPA has led me to the conclusion that Douglas did
not do nearly enough due diligence on lines he inherited from previous
editions of the PA series. This line in particular, as you've pointed
out John, looks like it was merely repeated from the previous edition
without Richardson even going through the sources. The last we heard
from him he was busy trying to establish Blanche of Artois' death date
& burial through primary sources. I'd like to point out that he has
accounts of far more recent individuals in his books which would
benefit from that kind of scrutiny.

> With respect to Catrin Vaughan, Clark 241 follows exactly the pedigree
> of the branch of the Vaughans given by RPA - which we now know is not
> in agreement with Bartrum.  In an earlier section of this Vaughan
> pedigree on p. 241, mention is made of Thomas, son of Roger Vaughan
> and Joan Whitney, from whom Bartrum (as cited by the Welsh Medieval
> Database) traces a descent to Catrin.  But Clark does not carry this
> line far enough to emcompass Catrin (or her parents)

And if Clark was unaware of William Vaughan of Trefeca, then he may
have thought there was only the one Sir William Vaughan of Porthaml
who worked chronologically as Catrin's father.

> Although we can't get all the way to John Bevan the immigrant through
> Clark, a John Bevan is mentioned by Clark, p. 347 in a (very short)
> pedigree of the Awbrey [sic] family, where Catherine (not Barbara as
> in RPA) is said to have m. John Bevan, senior, of Trevereig (no
> mention of either of them going to Pennsylvania).  Since Clark is the
> only source in RPA for this generation of the Aubrey/Awbrey line, one
> has to now wonder also where RPA (and Faris before RPA) came up with
> the name Barbara for John Bevan's wife.

Oh, this I can help with! T.A. Glenn is the source for the name
Barbara for Bevan's wife. He talks about her being named Catherine in
an Aubrey pedigree (so - there! - proof that Clark's 'Limbum Patrum'
was Glenn's major source), but points out her name is Barbara in the
record (John Bevan's first person account), and suggests that Bevan
either had two wives, or that her full name was Barbara Catherine. I
don't have time at the moment to link to a pdf of the exact page, but
it's in his Bevan account in 'Merion in the Welsh Tract'.

Regarding the discrepancy between Bartrum & Clark on the children of
Catrin Basset & Richard ap Ieuan of Collena. I can see Clark mis-
assigning one child (Jane Richards) to the couple, but mis-assigning
six? Perhaps Clark is the more accurate here. We are now in the
beginning of the 17th century with this generation. Perhaps Mary was
the couple's eldest child, and Bartrum was using a pedigree of the
family drawn up before the other six children were born? Again this
is where locating this family in primary records from the late-16th/
early-17th centuries could lead to a quick resolution for this issue.

> More doubts about the
> credibility of RPA....

IMO and FWIW, if Douglas stopped scrambling to go further & further
back in time in his series, and instead focused on honing the sources
& accounts of the lines he already has, he'd be doing everyone a
better service.

Thanks again, John, for being the Go-To Guy for Clark's 'Limbus
Patrum' and for casting your skilled eye on the details of this Bevan
line.

Cheers, ------Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Aug 24, 4:20 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I agree with the pedigree above through geenration 7: Thomas Cornewall
> 9d. 1472) and Elizabeth Lenthall.  And chronologically it is likely
> that Anne Cornewall Vaughan is a daughter of this couple, but I still
> don't see the evidence that supports this.

OK, I see now the origin of Anne Cornewall Vaughan in my database. It
was Matthew Connelly who first brought her to my attention on the
newsgroup in 2005:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/b76bc2f1e526ac6e?hl=en

I've done no further research of my own on her in the years since.

> Anne Cornewall's entry in the Welsh Medieval Database is here:http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I43514&tree=Welsh
> It gives only her father's name (no mother) and no ancestry beyond the
> father.
>
> A separate entry for the Thomas Cornewall who mar. Elizabeth Lenthall

> is here:http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I133345&tree=W...

> But it doesn't list Anne among the children of this couple.

There is a bit of a red flag in that pedigree in that it only gives 4
sons to the couple. What are the odds that a couple in the 15th
century would have 4 sons only who survived to adulthood & no
daughters? Not impossible of course, but rare probably. So perhaps
daughters were left off rather than never existed at all?

> I can't
> see any reference in either entry to a 1634 Herefordshire visitation,
> and I can't readily verify this in Bartrum.  So...what am I missing?

Here is the page from the database on Anne's husband William Vaughan:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I18433&tree=Welsh

Under Sources, #9 is: "Siddons-Visitation of Hereford, Siddons,
Michael Powell, (Publications of the Harleian Society. New Series : v.
15. London : Harleian Society, 2002), FHL 942 B4hu new series., p. 145
f.77, 159 ff.84v-5."

I'm assuming, since it's under William and his residence of Rhydhelyg
is in Herefordshire, that it contains a Vaughan Visitation pedigree
which may ascribe a father to his wife Anne.

If the Herefordshire Visitation also states that she was daughter of
Thomas Cornewall, then that would be a second source in addition to
Bartrum that says so. The task then becomes to establish there was no
other 15th-century Thomas Cornewall than Our Man at Burford who could
be her father, which would of course require combing through Patent,
Close & other Chancery Rolls of the time, etc. (yikes!)

> One place to start for the Cornewall family is "The House of
> Cornewall" (1908), available (and downloadable) via the Internet
> Archive.  But this source also does not show Anne as a daughter of
> this couple.

Thank you for the reference! I had used that book several years back
when looking at Alice Talbot's descendants but couldn't remember what
it was called, and have since lost the hard copy pages I had made from
it. Not looking good for Anne there. In a major way, I wish she
doesn't turn out to be Thomas Cornewall of Burford's daughter, as that
would allow one less line in my database involving the Vaughans, a
family I find confusing and exasperating to research. Even if it can
be determined that Burford's Thomas is the likeliest, or sole,
candidate for her father, there may never be enough evidence to
conclude whether she was a legitimate daughter of his by Elizabeth
Lenthall, or a bastard one. In respect to an Edward I descent,
though, it wouldn't matter, as she receives that through Thomas.

If John Bevan turns out to be descended from William Vaughan of
Rhydhelyg, I suppose William & Anne will get their day in the sun and
perhaps more will come to light with more intense research into 15th
century sources.

Cheers, ------Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Aug 24, 4:52 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> An interesting addition:
>
> It turns out that Clark p. 116 does have a pedigree of Bevan of
> Trvereig, although it's not labeled as such and is rather sketchy.
> The pertinent generation of this pedigree is as follows:
>
> Jevan [sic] ap John, m. Jane, d. of Richard ap Evan of Collenna, and
> had: 1. A son. 2. A son. 3. Charles, m. a d. of Morgan ap Evan of
> Gelligaled.  4. Evan, m. Catherine, d. of Griffith ______ of Gartha
> Gaba (?) [question mark is in Clark's text]
>
> The next generation (and the last in the pedigree) has this cryptic
> entry:
> _____ ap Jevan, m. Barbara, d. of ______ of Wenvoe.
>
> It's possible that this is the origin of the statement that the wife
> of the immigrant John Bevan was named Barbara - although it'[s a
> pretty weak link.

John,

Here is the page in Thomas Allen Glenn's 'Welsh Tract' where he
discusses John Bevan's wife. He even provides a facsimile of her
signature so her first name was certainly 'Barbara':
http://digital.library.villanova.edu/files/Pennsylvaniana/RadnorTownship/RadnorFriends/00004/00213.jpg

Charles Evans, in his 1983 TAG article, states: "John Bevan married
Barbara Awbrey, daughter of William Awbrey, of Pencoed,
Glamorganshire, a well-known local family, and Elizabeth Thomas."
Evans doesn't cite a source for this, and neither Clark (apparently)
or Thomas Allen Glenn make any mention of Barbara/Catherine Aubrey's
mother being Elizabeth Thomas. That must have been Evans's own
conclusion? I brought up in a previous post a chronological concern I
have with that particular placement of Barbara in the Aubrey family.
Obviously, the Aubrey descent needs much further work too.

Cheers, -------Brad

[John Higgins]

Clark on both p. 82 (sub Evans of Gnoll) and p. 241 (sub Vaughan of
Porthaml) identifies Catrin Vaughan (wife of David Evans) as daughter
of Sir William Vaughan of Porthaml, and on p. 241 he identifies her
mother as Catherine Havard. I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the
fact that he calls Catrin's father SIR William - I think it's more
likely that he (or his source)was unaware of the other William Vaughan
(of Trefeca), as you suggest.

In addition, I think it's important to recognize that Clark's
pedigrees are, in large part, NOT based on the heraldic visitations,
but rather on collections of traditional Welsh pedigrees which far pre-
date the visitations. In fact, he mentions that Dwnn's edition of the
visitations of Wales largely omits the areas of Wales which he
covers. He has a good discussion of the long established Welsh
tradition of recording pedigrees, and also of the efforts (beginning
in the time of Elizabeth I and James I) to assemble these pedigrees
into published collections. Two of the several collections that he
mentions are the Golden Grove Book (cited often in the Welsh Medieval
Database) and the collection of Sir Isaac Heard published by Sir
Thomas Phillipps (which I've seen at the FHL).

Welsh genealogy is quite a different animal than English genealogy,
largely due to the Welsh tradition of keeping track of pedigrees so
diligently. Admittedly these traditional pedigrees may not always be
accurate or reliable, but they certainly are a valuable resource and
cannot be overlooked or quickly dismissed. I've found it to be quite
challenging - and fun, in a weird way - to pursue Welsh lines.

BTW Glenn's "Merion in the Welsh Tract" is available (and
downloadable) at the Internet Archive website. I noticed a couple of
glaring chronological bloopers in his Bevan line. On page 163 he says
that John Bevan's father Evan ap John "appears to have died before
1665" but that he "married about the year 1664". Presumably the
latter date should be 1646, as he subsequently says (on page 170) that
John Bevan was born ca. 1646 and that his parents died when he was
very young, leaving five children of whom John was the eldest.

I'm fortunate to have a copy of the reprint edition of Clark's Limbus
Patrum, which I happened to find at a used-book website some years
ago. It's not perfect, but it's quite a useful tool at times.

And I agree entirely with your comments about RPA - but that's "old
news" of course!!

[John Higgins]

On Aug 24, 9:06 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 24, 4:52 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > An interesting addition:
>
> > It turns out that Clark p. 116 does have a pedigree of Bevan of
> > Trvereig, although it's not labeled as such and is rather sketchy.
> > The pertinent generation of this pedigree is as follows:
>
> > Jevan [sic] ap John, m. Jane, d. of Richard ap Evan of Collenna, and
> > had: 1. A son. 2. A son. 3. Charles, m. a d. of Morgan ap Evan of
> > Gelligaled.  4. Evan, m. Catherine, d. of Griffith ______ of Gartha
> > Gaba (?) [question mark is in Clark's text]
>
> > The next generation (and the last in the pedigree) has this cryptic
> > entry:
> > _____ ap Jevan, m. Barbara, d. of ______ of Wenvoe.
>
> > It's possible that this is the origin of the statement that the wife
> > of the immigrant John Bevan was named Barbara - although it'[s a
> > pretty weak link.
>
> John,
>
> Here is the page in Thomas Allen Glenn's 'Welsh Tract' where he
> discusses John Bevan's wife.  He even provides a facsimile of her

> signature so her first name was certainly 'Barbara':http://digital.library.villanova.edu/files/Pennsylvaniana/RadnorTowns...

>
> Charles Evans, in his 1983 TAG article, states: "John Bevan married
> Barbara Awbrey, daughter of William Awbrey, of Pencoed,
> Glamorganshire, a well-known local family, and Elizabeth Thomas."
> Evans doesn't cite a source for this, and neither Clark (apparently)
> or Thomas Allen Glenn make any mention of Barbara/Catherine Aubrey's
> mother being Elizabeth Thomas.  That must have been Evans's own
> conclusion?  I brought up in a previous post a chronological concern I
> have with that particular placement of Barbara in the Aubrey family.
> Obviously, the Aubrey descent needs much further work too.
>
> Cheers,                                         -------Brad

No, Clark does mention (on page 347) that the mother of Barbara/
Catherine Aubrey was Elizabeth Thomas, and he covers the Thomas family
on pages 31-32.

BTW the Thomas connection is covered in RPA (p. 709) and leads back to
Joan Whitney and Roger Vaughan again. Richardson's treatment of this
line, compared to Faris, is rather enlightening, as he expands at
least the citations for the first two generations (before the Thomas
family) beyond what Faris had provided, but he neglects to do the same
for the Thomas family - which is very likely in Bartrum.

There's also a tantalizing link for further research here. The mother
of Elizabeth Thomas is said to Dorothy carew, daughter of Sir John and
sister and heiress of John Carew of Camberton, Somerset. I wonder
where that might lead....

[loren...@merck.com]

Hi Brad: I have a book in my possession entitled "WITHERS-DAVIS ANCESTRY" by Daniel and Harold Boles,pub.1998.On p.248 is the entry for Richard ap Evan and Catherine Basset w a listing of their children. As follows:
Anne,Evan,John,Mary,Jane,Thomas,James,William. The source listed for the names of the children is note 12.,[Ms.NLW 11964,National Library of Wales]

[smith....@gmail.com]

At first glance that would appear to Refer to Sir John Carew of Comberton and Crowcombe, Somerset. He was married to Elizabeth Southcote and had a daugther Dorothy as well as a son John.

See Vivian, John Lambrick, Visitation of the County of Devon, 1620 (Henry S. Eland, Exeter, 1895.), comprising the Heralds' Visitations of 1531, 1564, & 1620. With additions by Lieutenant-Colonel J.L. Vivian. Faris, (1999), p 8. Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-century Colonists: the Descent from the Later Plantagenet Kings of England, Henry III, Edward I, Edward II, and Edward III, of Emigrants from England and Wales to the North American Colonies Before 1701 (2nd ed., 1999), Faris, David, (2nd edition. Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society, 1999), FHL book 973 D2fp., p. 8 AUBREY:1. History of the Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. I., p 267 John Burke, 1836.

If so there are interesting descents thru Skipwith, Dymoke, Welles, etc.

Doug Smith

[Brad Verity]

On Aug 24, 9:26 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> No, Clark does mention (on page 347) that the mother of Barbara/
> Catherine Aubrey was Elizabeth Thomas, and he covers the Thomas family
> on pages 31-32.

Well, that's promising, though I still have issues with the
chronology.

> BTW the Thomas connection is covered in RPA (p. 709) and leads back to
> Joan Whitney and Roger Vaughan again.

Groan. Sorry - I just don't have the enthusiasm for the Welsh lines
that you do, John. I hope I can get to the point where I appreciate
them more.

> Richardson's treatment of this
> line, compared to Faris, is rather enlightening, as he expands at
> least the citations for the first two generations (before the Thomas
> family) beyond what Faris had provided, but he neglects to do the same
> for the Thomas family - which is very likely in Bartrum.

I'm glad to hear that Douglas has taken his own look at least at part
of this line. Adrian Benjamin Burke informed me offlist that Douglas
did incorporate his two articles from 2008 on the wives of Robert
Whitney into later editions of the RPA/MCA series. Hopefully, he will
do the same with any research that follows on this Bevan line.

By the way, for those interested in this line, do find Adrian's two
articles in 'Foundations' on Robert Whitney's two wives. They are
excellent examples of how to take these Clark & Bartrum Welsh
pedigrees as a STARTING point, and then try to authenticate them in
the primary record. Even if you're unsuccessful in establishing a
definitive connection, you've placed these individuals in a broader
context than simply names (and confusing names in many instances) on a
pedigree & placed them in a broader context that's going to be more
helpful in the long run.

Constance Audley is a good example. Here is a woman who is a mere
name on a pedigree, albeit an important one in royal descent terms, as
she was a granddaughter of Constance of York, granddaughter in turn of
Edward III. Even though she was only a younger daughter of a minor
Marcher baron who doesn't even warrant a bio in ODNB, Adrian was still
able to establish her in a primary record. We have proof she existed
outside of a pedigree. And this is the 15th century. There must be
record proof of subsequent individuals in the Bevan line of descent in
later centuries when more records survive.

> There's also a tantalizing link for further research here.  The mother
> of Elizabeth Thomas is said to Dorothy carew, daughter of Sir John and
> sister and heiress of John Carew of Camberton, Somerset.  I wonder
> where that might lead....

As Doug Smith pointed out, to more royal descents. Sorry I can't be
of any help here - I don't yet have this John Carew of Camberton in my
database.

Cheers, --------Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Aug 24, 9:38 pm, loren_va...@merck.com wrote:

> Hi Brad: I have a book in my possession entitled "WITHERS-DAVIS ANCESTRY" by Daniel and Harold Boles,pub.1998.On p.248 is the entry for Richard ap Evan and Catherine Basset w a listing of their children. As follows:
> Anne,Evan,John,Mary,Jane,Thomas,James,William. The source listed for the names of the children is note 12.,[Ms.NLW 11964,National Library of Wales]

Dear Loren,

This is very promising. A possible record beyond Clark's pedigree in
'Limbus Patrum' that establishes there were more children than just
Mary who were born to Richard ap Evan & Catherine Basset. If we could
find a record that establishes that the manor of Collena passed from
Richard to one of his sons mentioned above, that would make it an
established fact that Bartrum was mistaken in only ascribing one
daughter to the couple.

If the children above are listed in their birth order, there goes my
theory that Mary was the eldest child and Bartrum was working from a
pedigree drawn up before the others were born.

Establishing in record any of these other children of Richard ap Evan
will cement John Bevan's mother into this line of descent from David
Evans & Catrin Vaughan. The question of why Bartrum made such an
error will remain, but it will become academic, rather than pivotal to
the descent.

I want to thank you, especially John Higgins, and everyone else who's
helped take a closer look at this line and "held my hand" as we
ventured into Welsh genealogy. We've boiled down the Bevan descent to
a question of which of the two William Vaughan first cousins was the
father of Catrin, wife of David Evans of the Great House. This
basically becomes Clark vs. Bartrum. I leave it to genealogists far
better versed in those sources, and in Welsh genealogy in general, to
sort out which descent we should favour.

Thanks & Cheers, ------------
Brad

[Matthew Connolly]

On Saturday, 25 August 2012 06:52:02 UTC+3, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Aug 24, 4:20 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I agree with the pedigree above through geenration 7: Thomas Cornewall
>
> > 9d. 1472) and Elizabeth Lenthall.  And chronologically it is likely
>
> > that Anne Cornewall Vaughan is a daughter of this couple, but I still
>
> > don't see the evidence that supports this.
>
>
>
> OK, I see now the origin of Anne Cornewall Vaughan in my database. It
>
> was Matthew Connelly who first brought her to my attention on the
>
> newsgroup in 2005:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/b76bc2f1e526ac6e?hl=en
>
>
>

Just to confirm, my only source for that was Bartrum; I'd also seen that she wasn't included in 'House of Cornewall', hence my noting her only as a possible daughter. I do recall the Cornewall book as being a bit patchy however, even as far as some 18th century generations I was looking into; so in itself, her absence there shouldn't be regarded as the final word.

-Matthew

[John Higgins]

This line of the Carew family shows up on P. 134 of Vivian's edition
of the visitations of Devon, continuing to p. 139. And Dorothy's
mother Elizabeth Southcote appears on p. 700 of Vivian (where her
husband is mis-identified as Sir John Cary rather than Carew).

And yes, there are quite a number of Plantagenet descents through both
parents of Dorothy Carew - notably through her maternal grandmother
who is a Fitzwilliam of Mablethorpe. So this is another correction or
addition for RPA (a s well as MCA) which has overlooked all these
connections.

[Wjhonson]

http://books.google.com/books?id=GmqlIibS95IC&pg=PP1

-----Original Message-----
From: John Higgins <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>

[John Higgins]

On Aug 24, 8:52 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 24, 4:20 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I agree with the pedigree above through geenration 7: Thomas Cornewall
> > 9d. 1472) and Elizabeth Lenthall.  And chronologically it is likely

> > that Anne CornewallVaughanis a daughter of this couple, but I still

> > don't see the evidence that supports this.
>

> OK, I see now the origin of Anne CornewallVaughanin my database.  It

> was Matthew Connelly who first brought her to my attention on the

> newsgroup in 2005:http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/b76bc2f1e52...

>
> I've done no further research of my own on her in the years since.
>
> > Anne Cornewall's entry in the Welsh Medieval Database is here:http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I43514&tree=Welsh
> > It gives only her father's name (no mother) and no ancestry beyond the
> > father.
>
> > A separate entry for the Thomas Cornewall who mar. Elizabeth Lenthall
> > is here:http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I133345&tree=W...
> > But it doesn't list Anne among the children of this couple.
>
> There is a bit of a red flag in that pedigree in that it only gives 4
> sons to the couple.  What are the odds that a couple in the 15th
> century would have 4 sons only who survived to adulthood & no
> daughters?  Not impossible of course, but rare probably.  So perhaps
> daughters were left off rather than never existed at all?
>
> > I can't
> > see any reference in either entry to a 1634 Herefordshire visitation,
> > and I can't readily verify this in Bartrum.  So...what am I missing?
>

> Here is the page from the database on Anne's husband WilliamVaughan:http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I18433&tree=Welsh

>
> Under Sources, #9 is: "Siddons-Visitation of Hereford, Siddons,
> Michael Powell, (Publications of the Harleian Society. New Series : v.
> 15. London : Harleian Society, 2002), FHL 942 B4hu new series., p. 145
> f.77, 159 ff.84v-5."
>
> I'm assuming, since it's under William and his residence of Rhydhelyg

> is in Herefordshire, that it contains aVaughanVisitation pedigree

> which may ascribe a father to his wife Anne.
>
> If the Herefordshire Visitation also states that she was daughter of
> Thomas Cornewall, then that would be a second source in addition to
> Bartrum that says so.  The task then becomes to establish there was no
> other 15th-century Thomas Cornewall than Our Man at Burford who could
> be her father, which would of course require combing through Patent,
> Close & other Chancery Rolls of the time, etc. (yikes!)

> Cheers,                                          ------Brad

I've now been able to access of the Visitation of Herefordshire
referenced above, which is cited by the Welsh Medieval Database as a
source for William Vaughan of Rhydhelig who married Anne Cornewall.
Although there are several Vaughan pedigrees in this volume, William
does not appear in any of them. Instead, the two references for him
are in footnotes in other peidgrees, where he is identified as the
father or more remote ancestor of someone who married into the family
whose pedigree is being presented. Neither reference specifies the
name of William's wife (or, for that matter, that he was of
Rhydhelig).

So this does not help in confirming that Anne Cornewall was the
daughter of Thomas Cornewall and Elizabeth Cornewall. I think this
connection is very likely, but it would be nice to have stronger
evidence for it.

The Vaughan pedigrees, however, do provide one piece of information
relevant to this thread. A pedigree of Vaughan of Bredwardine and
Moccas (descended from Vaughan of Porthaml) starts off with Sir
William Vaughan of Porthaml and his wife Katherine, daughter of Jenkin
Havard. Much earlier in this thread, we discussed that Clark's Limbus
Patrum assigns this couple as the parents of catrin Vaughan, wife of
David Evans, while Bartrum assigns a different Vaughan couple as the
parents. FWIW the Hereford Visitation does NOT include Catrin among
the children of the Vaughan/Havard marriage - thus implicitly
supporting Bartrum rather than Clark. (The other Vaughan pedigrees in
the visitation do not cover the line where Bartrum places her.)

[Brad Verity]

On Sep 9, 11:16 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I've now been able to access of the Visitation of Herefordshire
> referenced above, which is cited by the Welsh Medieval Database as a
> source for William Vaughan of Rhydhelig who married Anne Cornewall.

Thanks very much for checking this, John!

> Although there are several Vaughan pedigrees in this volume, William
> does not appear in any of them.  Instead, the two references for him
> are in footnotes in other peidgrees, where he is identified as the
> father or more remote ancestor of someone who married into the family
> whose pedigree is being presented.  Neither reference specifies the
> name of William's wife (or, for that matter, that he was of
> Rhydhelig).

Bummer.

> So this does not help in confirming that Anne Cornewall was the
> daughter of Thomas Cornewall and Elizabeth Cornewall.  I think this
> connection is very likely, but it would be nice to have stronger
> evidence for it.

Agreed.

> The Vaughan pedigrees, however, do provide one piece of information
> relevant to this thread.  A pedigree of Vaughan of Bredwardine and
> Moccas (descended from Vaughan of Porthaml) starts off with Sir
> William Vaughan of Porthaml and his wife Katherine, daughter of Jenkin
> Havard.  Much earlier in this thread, we discussed that Clark's Limbus
> Patrum assigns this couple as the parents of catrin Vaughan, wife of
> David Evans, while Bartrum assigns a different Vaughan couple as the
> parents.  FWIW the Hereford Visitation does NOT include Catrin among
> the children of the Vaughan/Havard marriage - thus implicitly
> supporting Bartrum rather than Clark.  (The other Vaughan pedigrees in
> the visitation do not cover the line where Bartrum places her.)

Ahh, very good! So in this Clark vs. Bartrum case, it looks like
Bartrum is the winner. The John Bevan descent definitely needs
revision then.

Thanks & Cheers, -------Brad

[vargalor]

On Sunday, September 9, 2012 3:34:00 PM UTC-4, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Sep 9, 11:16 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote: > I've now been able to access of the Visitation of Herefordshire > referenced above, which is cited by the Welsh Medieval Database as a > source for William Vaughan of Rhydhelig who married Anne Cornewall. Thanks very much for checking this, John! > Although there are several Vaughan pedigrees in this volume, William > does not appear in any of them.  Instead, the two references for him > are in footnotes in other peidgrees, where he is identified as the > father or more remote ancestor of someone who married into the family > whose pedigree is being presented.  Neither reference specifies the > name of William's wife (or, for that matter, that he was of > Rhydhelig). Bummer. > So this does not help in confirming that Anne Cornewall was the > daughter of Thomas Cornewall and Elizabeth Cornewall.  I think this > connection is very likely, but it would be nice to have stronger > evidence for it. Agreed. > The Vaughan pedigrees, however, do provide one piece of information > relevant to this thread.  A pedigree of Vaughan of Bredwardine and > Moccas (descended from Vaughan of Porthaml) starts off with Sir > William Vaughan of Porthaml and his wife Katherine, daughter of Jenkin > Havard.  Much earlier in this thread, we discussed that Clark's Limbus > Patrum assigns this couple as the parents of catrin Vaughan, wife of > David Evans, while Bartrum assigns a different Vaughan couple as the > parents.  FWIW the Hereford Visitation does NOT include Catrin among > the children of the Vaughan/Havard marriage - thus implicitly > supporting Bartrum rather than Clark.  (The other Vaughan pedigrees in > the visitation do not cover the line where Bartrum places her.) Ahh, very good! So in this Clark vs. Bartrum case, it looks like Bartrum is the winner. The John Bevan descent definitely needs revision then. Thanks & Cheers, -------Brad

Hi Brad: I had someone in SLC look up the originals for the manuscripts listed as sources for the children of Catherine Basset and Richard ap Ieuan, including the one from the "Withers-Davis" book where he gave a MS # in the NLW. There was no document that listed any other children for Catrin and Richard except for the Welsh database that listed the daughter Mary. So where did Clark come up with the other children? Does anyone know of a will for either Catrin or Richard? I would think Clark would be above inventing 6 children out of nothing! Comments? Loren

[Brad Verity]

On Sep 17, 11:30 am, vargalor <loren_va...@merck.com> wrote:

> Hi Brad: I had someone in SLC look up the originals for the manuscripts listed as sources for the children of Catherine Basset and Richard ap Ieuan, including the one from the "Withers-Davis" book where he gave a MS # in the NLW. There was no document that listed any other children for Catrin and Richard except for the Welsh database that listed the daughter Mary. So where did Clark come up with the other children? Does anyone know of a will for either Catrin or Richard? I would think Clark would be above inventing 6 children out of nothing! Comments? Loren

Dear Loren,

Thank you for taking the time to have the sources checked from the
Withers-Davis book. It's troubling that they do not match Clark's
account. I'm sorry I don't know where to look for wills for Richard
ap Ieuan or his wife. GENUKI has no further information on Collena
other than confirming that it is in the parish of Llantrisant in
Glamorganshire. I know there is a series of well-researched volumes
called Glamorgan County History, with Volume IV 'Early Modern
Glamorgan' covering the period 1536 to the later 1700s, and I wonder
if that could be useful in finding mention of this Evans family of
Collena?

Just to reiterate, there are two major problems with the Bevan descent
as presented in the 2004 edition (as well as previous and subsequent
editions) of Plantagenet Ancestry:

1) The parentage of Catrin Vaughan, wife of David Evans of the Great
House (by1523-1568). It now appears that Clark in his 'Limbus' made
an error in making Catrin a daughter of Sir William Vaughan of
Porthaml & Katherine Havard. Clark was unaware of William Vaughan of
Trefeca, Sir William's first cousin, whom Bartrum makes Catrin's
father. Catrin retains her descent from Sir Roger Vaughan of Porthaml
(d. 1514) & Joan Whitney, and picks up an additional Edward III
descent, and likely an additional Edward I descent with her proper
parents and grandparents.

2) The mother of the New World immigrant John Bevan of Treverigg (c.
1646-1726). According to Clark's pedigree of Prichard of Collenna on
pg. 136 of his 'Limbus', Jane Evan, youngest child of Richard ap Ieuan
of Collena & Catrin Bassett, married "Evan John [= Ieuan ap John] of
Trevereig". 19th-century genealogist Thomas Allen Glenn assigns this
Jane Evan as the mother of John Bevan. But as you are finding, Loren,
Clark's pedigree for Collena does not match Bartrum or (so far) other
Welsh sources, and may be erroneous. If so, John Bevan's descent from
Edward III is broken altogether, as it requires Catrin Bassett as his
maternal grandmother.

There's one more related issue on the Aubrey descent of Bevan's wife
Barbara:

3) Per both Bartrum & Clark, Barbara Aubrey Bevan was the daughter of
William Aubrey & Elizabeth Thomas. William Aubrey in turn was the son
of an earlier William Aubrey of Pencoed, Rector of Pendolyn, and Jane
Mathew. We know from John Bevan's first-person account, quoted by
Thomas Allen Glenn, that his wife Barbara died in 1710, and was born
about 1637. Plantagenet Ancestry says that her grandfather, William
Aubrey of Pencoed, was born in 1602 - this makes him a grandfather at
age 35. Something is definitely not right there.

I'm assuming that Peter Bartrum worked in the late 20th-century from
far more sources at his disposal than George T. Clark had 100 years
previous. But from what I've gathered from looking at this Bevan
descent, the pedigrees assembled by both of those genealogists are
secondary sources subject to error, no matter how well-meaning.
Without corroboration from primary sources (wills, settlements, IPMs,
and all the other types of records that landowning Welshmen found
their way into), their pedigrees are educated guesswork. Bartrum left
us a tremendous legacy: what an impressive life's work! It's up to us
now to pick up the baton & find the primary records that will prove
(or at least corroborate) his pedigrees.

Cheers, ------Brad

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Brad ~

The chronology behind Welsh families is always difficult. I often find statements in Welsh sources which are undocumented and frequently erroneous. And, the errors get repeated again and again in secondary sources. It's difficult to determine what is true and what is not.

As for Barbara Aubrey's grandfather Rev. William Aubrey (or Awbrey), he was not born in 1602. According to Foster, Alumni Oxoniensis 1 (1891): 45, he was born about 1573 (aged 15 in 1588). As “William Awbrey, of co. Brecon,” Esq., he matriculated at Brasenose College, Oxford 26 Jan. 1587/8. He obtained a B.A. degree 7 May 1593. He served as Rector of Pendoylan, Glamorgan 1613 and as Rector of Llanwrthwl, Breconshire 1613.

Foster may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://archive.org/stream/cu31924084672959#page/n59/mode/2up

The Nathew pedigree in Heard, Glamorganshire Pedigrees (1845): 27–28 states that William Awbrey, was "of Pencoed, Master of Arts, and Rector of Pendoylwyn.” As we can see above, Foster indicates that he only held a Bachelor of Arts degree.

As for Rev. William Aubrey's wife, Jane, she is known to be the daughter of Humphrey Mathew, Esq., of Castell-y-Mynach, Glamorgan. In 1597 as “Humphrey Mathew of Castell Mynach, Glamorgan, gent.,” he was included in a list of remainders in a grant made by his cousin, William Mathew, Esq., of Llandaff, Glamorgan of various manors in Glamorgan.

The source for this information is Ralph, Great White Book of Bristol (Bristol Rec. Soc. 32) (1979): 110, which may bew viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NdNAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA110

In 1600, as “Humfrey Mathew of Castle Menych, esq.,” he was included in a list of remainders in the 1600 will of his cousin, Henry Mathew, Esq., of Radyr, Glamorgan. See Matthews, Cardiff Records 3 (1901): 116–117, which may viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NugnAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA116

Humphrey Mathew, Esq., was presumably dead in or before 1608, when his son and heir, Thomas Mathew, Esq., of Castle Menych, was appointed overseer of the will of Robert Mathew, Esq., of Cardiff.

For the will of Robert Mathew, Esq., see Matthews, Cardiff Records, 3 (1901): 118, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NugnAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA118

So you have the following pedigree with dates:

1. Humphrey Matthew, Gent., living 1597, 1600, presumably dead in or before 1608.
2. Jane Mathew, married Rev. William Aubrey, born c.1573, living 1613.
4. William Aubrey, married before 1636 Elizabeth Thomas. She was living 1678.
5. Barbara Aubrey, born c. 1637, married John Bevan.

That should remove the chronological difficulty you have with these generations.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 9:50:50 AM UTC-6, Brad Verity wrote:
> 3) Per both Bartrum & Clark, Barbara Aubrey Bevan was the daughter of
>
> William Aubrey & Elizabeth Thomas. William Aubrey in turn was the son
>
> of an earlier William Aubrey of Pencoed, Rector of Pendolyn, and Jane
>
> Mathew. We know from John Bevan's first-person account, quoted by
>
> Thomas Allen Glenn, that his wife Barbara died in 1710, and was born
>
> about 1637. Plantagenet Ancestry says that her grandfather, William
>
> Aubrey of Pencoed, was born in 1602 - this makes him a grandfather at
>
> age 35. Something is definitely not right there.
>
>
>
> I'm assuming that Peter Bartrum worked in the late 20th-century from
>
> far more sources at his disposal than George T. Clark had 100 years
>
> previous. But from what I've gathered from looking at this Bevan
>
> descent, the pedigrees assembled by both of those genealogists are
>
> secondary sources subject to error, no matter how well-meaning.
>
> Without corroboration from primary sources (wills, settlements, IPMs,
>
> and all the other types of records that landowning Welshmen found
>
> their way into), their pedigrees are educated guesswork. Bartrum left
>
> us a tremendous legacy: what an impressive life's work! It's up to us
>
> now to pick up the baton & find the primary records that will prove
>
> (or at least corroborate) his pedigrees.
>
>
>
> Cheers, ------Brad

Brad

[Douglas Richardson]

In my previous post, for the words "The Nathew pedigree in Heard, Glamorganshire Pedigrees"

please read "The Mathew pedigree in Heard, Glamorganshire Pedigrees"

DR

[John Higgins]

Just to be perfectly clear, the "chronological difficulty" that Brad
cited in the Aubrey line was the fact that "Plantagenet Ancestry" (or
at least its 1st edition, as well as its companion volume "Magna Carta
Ancestry") states that William Aubrey was born in 1602 (citing Clark's
Limbus Patrum)). So this lengthy post, although it avoids saying so,
represents a correction to an error in both RPA and MCA (and probably
to their second additions as well, since DR doesn't state that this
has been corrected in those editions).

It would be interesting to hear DR's views on the more substantive
errors that Brad has pointed out with respect the lines in RPA and MCA.

[Brad Verity]

On Sep 18, 3:16 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:

> As for Barbara Aubrey's grandfather Rev. William Aubrey (or Awbrey), he was not born in 1602.  According to Foster, Alumni Oxoniensis 1 (1891): 45, he was born about 1573 (aged 15 in 1588).  As “William Awbrey, of co. Brecon,” Esq.,  he matriculated at Brasenose College, Oxford 26 Jan. 1587/8.  He obtained a B.A. degree 7 May 1593.  He served as Rector of Pendoylan, Glamorgan 1613 and as Rector of Llanwrthwl, Breconshire 1613.

That's much better.

> So you have the following pedigree with dates:
>
> 1. Humphrey Matthew, Gent., living 1597, 1600, presumably dead in or before 1608.
> 2. Jane Mathew, married Rev. William Aubrey, born c.1573, living 1613.
> 4. William Aubrey, married before 1636 Elizabeth Thomas.  She was living 1678.
> 5. Barbara Aubrey, born c. 1637, married John Bevan.
>
> That should remove the chronological difficulty you have with these generations.

It does indeed. Thank you for looking into this, Douglas. I'm glad
the Aubrey descent works out, especially with the Bevan one not as
certain.

Cheers, -----Brad

[vargalor]

On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 9:41:38 PM UTC-4, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Sep 18, 3:16 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote: > As for Barbara Aubrey's grandfather Rev. William Aubrey (or Awbrey), he was not born in 1602.  According to Foster, Alumni Oxoniensis 1 (1891): 45, he was born about 1573 (aged 15 in 1588).  As “William Awbrey, of co. Brecon,” Esq.,  he matriculated at Brasenose College, Oxford 26 Jan. 1587/8.  He obtained a B.A. degree 7 May 1593.  He served as Rector of Pendoylan, Glamorgan 1613 and as Rector of Llanwrthwl, Breconshire 1613. That's much better. > So you have the following pedigree with dates: > > 1. Humphrey Matthew, Gent., living 1597, 1600, presumably dead in or before 1608. > 2. Jane Mathew, married Rev. William Aubrey, born c.1573, living 1613. > 4. William Aubrey, married before 1636 Elizabeth Thomas.  She was living 1678. > 5. Barbara Aubrey, born c. 1637, married John Bevan. > > That should remove the chronological difficulty you have with these generations. It does indeed. Thank you for looking into this, Douglas. I'm glad the Aubrey descent works out, especially with the Bevan one not as certain. Cheers, -----Brad

Hi Brad: I had someone go over the MS 11964 in the NLW to check for a source that would verify Jane Richard married a Bevan. The first time he looked for something in the Vaughn pedigrees contained in the folio. I had him recheck for PRICHARD. He found the following. In MS 11964 a compilation of Welsh pedigrees is found an entry for Prichard. The Arms are given as Sable,a Chevron between 3 fleur de lys argent
CREST: A Boars head Azure
The pedigree commences with an Evan ap Richard(son of Richard Gibbon of Trecastle).
Then descends to Richard Bevan of Collena m. Cath daught of Thom Bassett of Mischin.
Children: Sons listed first in the following order
1.Evan Prichard of Collena
2.John
3.James
4.Thomas m.dt. and heir of Tylcha
5.William
Daughters listed in the following order:
1.Mary m.--Evan of Gellizaled (?) I cannot make out the first name or the village
2.Jane m. Evan John of Treverig
3.Ann

[loren...@merck.com]

On Thursday, August 23, 2012 4:00:54 PM UTC-4, Brad Verity wrote:

> PA3/RPA (2004), p. 105 (sub Bevan), provides only three facts for Catrin Vaughan (dau of Sir William Vaughan of Porthaml, decended from Edward III) & her husband David Evans: 1) their names; 2) that he was of the Great House, Neath, Glamorganshire; and 3) that he was Sheriff of Glamorgan in 1563. There are 2 bios of David Evans in the HOP series, neither one a source used by PA3/RPA: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/evans-%28yeuans%29-david-1523-68 http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/evans-david-1568 These provide the further important genealogical facts that he was born by 1523, that his will was written on 2 Feb. 1568, and proved 8 May 1568, that his parents were Evan ap David of Gnoll, Neath, and Lucy, da. of Morgan Gwyn ap John ap Gruffydd of Cefn Iorwerth, and that he and Catrin Vaughan had two sons and five daughters. PA3/RPA provides 'Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Glamorganiae' (1886) by Clark, p. 241 as a source for this couple, presumably from the Vaughan end as the same page is cited for previous generations in the line. HOP provides an additional page (82) in the 'Limbus' as one of its sources, which would presumably provide information on the Evans end, hopefully the details on the 7 children of the couple. Unfortunately, I can't access 'Limbus' online thru Google Books. But it does again make me wonder how closely examined were the sources cited to in PA3/ RPA, especially the ones carried over from earlier editions. At any rate, it's nice to have further details on a very sketchy line of descent from Edward III. Cheers, ------Brad

Dear Group: In his book "The House of Commons 1509-1558" p.1982 S.Bindoff on p.518 has the following:" Sir Roger Vaughn ,brother in law of David Evans m.Catherine dt. of George Herbert,Vaughns father William had acquired the wardship of the coheirs of Henry Miles (Parry) of Newcourt brother in law to John Vaughan II." The William mentioned above was the husband of Catherine Havard.
Barturm's William Vaughan was the son of an Elizabeth Parry so coukld there have been a mix up here? Comments ? Loren

[Douglas Richardson]

On Aug 23, 5:38 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Here's a conflict.  The Welsh Medieval Database, apparently using
> Bartrum as its source, has a completely different line of descent from
> Sir Roger Vaughan (d. 1514) & Joan Whitney, for Catrin Vaughan, wife
> of David Evans of the Great House, M.P.:http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I60753&tree=Welsh
>
> Joan Whitney m. Sir Roger Vaughan of Porthaml (d. 1514), and had
> 1) Thomas Vaughan of Tregwntr (yst son) m. Elizabeth ap Harry (Parry)
> (d. after 1547), descended from Edward III thru Stradling/Beaufort,
> and had
> 2) William Vaughan of Trefeca m. Jane Vaughan, dau of "Watkyn Vaughan
> of Clâs-ar-Wy, Radnorshire & Jane ferch Ieuan", and had
> 3) Catrin Vaughan m. David ap Ieuan (alias Dafydd Evans) (the M.P.)

Brad ~

While it is true that the LDS Welsh Medieval Database makes the claim
that Catherine, wife of David Evans, Esq., is the daughter of William
Vaughan, of Trefecca, this database ignores several printed sources
which state without reservation that Catherine, wife of David Evans,
Esq., is the daughter of Sir William Vaughan, of Porthaml (in
Breconshire).

For example, Catherine, wife of David Evans, Esq., is correctly placed
as the daughter of Sir William Vaughan, of Porthaml, in the Vaughan
pedigree published in Williams, Llyfr Baglan, or, Book of Baglan
(1910): 105–106. This source gives Sir William Vaughan the following
child:

“Katherin [Vaughan] ma. Dauid Evans of Neth, esq.”

The above source may be viewed at the following weblink (go to page
105):

https://dcms.lds.org/view/action/ieViewer.do?from_proxy=true&dps_pid=IE81852&dps_dvs=1349353757294~973&dps_pid=IE81852&change_lng=en

Even through Catherine, wife of David Evans, appears in this pedigree,
this information is strangely ignored by the LDS Welsh Medieval
Database. That is in spite of the fact that in the online LDS Family
History Catalog, the catalog entry for Llyfr Baglan informs the reader
that to view the genealogies of individuals in this source, you are to
"click here." When one clicks "here," one is taken to the LDS Welsh
Medieval Database which obviously missed Catherine Vaughan's marriage
when the information in this source was extracted for the database.

One further comment: You've claimed that Peter Bartrum identifies
Catherine Vaughan as the daughter of William Vaughan, of Trefecca,
based on your reading of the notes for Catherine Vaughan in the Welsh
Medieval Database. But the LDS Welsh Medieval Database doesn't say
that. And Bartrum doesn't say that either!

Here are weblinks to what Bartrum actually says.

Bartrum, Welsh Genealogies AD 1400–1500 (1983): 1066 (Iestyn 8 (A):
“Dafydd [ap Ievan] = Catrin f. William Vaughan”).

For this reference in Bartrum, see the following weblink:

http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5025/IESTYN%208%28A%29_1066.png?sequence=8

Bartrum Welsh Gens. 1400–1500 3 (1983): 463 (Drymbenog 2 (C3) —
Vaughan ped. “Sir William Vaughan Sh[eriff of] Brec[onshire] 1540 =
Catrin f. Jenkin”).

For this reference in Bartrum, see the following weblink:

http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5082/DRYMBENOG%20%202%28C3%29_463.png?sequence=14

As we can see, in his Evans pedigree [Iestyn 8 (A)], Bartrum states
that Catherine Vaughan, wife of David Evans, is the daughter of
William Vaughan [no place given], and refers the reader to the Vaughan
pedigree labelled Drymbenog 2 (C3). In the Drymbenog 2 (C3) pedigree,
Catherine Vaughan is not placed as the daughter of either Sir William
Vaughan, of Porthaml, nor of his cousin, William Vaughan, of
Trefecca. Since both men are found on same page, either man could be
Catherine's father. Simply put, you've reached a conclusion which is
not supported by your sources.

In the future, if you or someone else believes they have a correction
or addition for one of my books, I strongly recommend that they
contact me directly. If the correction or addition is valid, I'll
certainly give consideration for its inclusion in a future edition of
my books.

[Brad Verity]

On Oct 3, 7:25 am, loren_va...@merck.com wrote:

> Dear Group: In his book "The House of Commons 1509-1558" p.1982 S.Bindoff on p.518 has the following:" Sir Roger Vaughn ,brother in law of David Evans m.Catherine dt. of George Herbert,Vaughns father William had acquired the wardship of the coheirs of Henry Miles (Parry) of Newcourt brother in law to John Vaughan II." The William mentioned above was the husband of Catherine Havard.
> Barturm's William Vaughan was the son of an Elizabeth Parry so coukld there have been a mix up here? Comments ? Loren

Loren,

I have Miles Parry of Newcourt (the same as the "Henry Miles (Parry)
of Newcourt brother in law to John Vaughan II" from HOP) with a death
date of 12 January 1543. His wife Eleanor Scudamore died on 21
January 1548. Their daughter and co-heir Elizabeth Parry (who died 19
November 1570) was the wife of Rowland Vaughan, Heir of Porthaml (d.
1566), the eldest son of Sir Roger Vaughan. So obviously Sir William
Vaughan of Porthaml (died before 1553), the one who married Katherine
Havard, acquired the wardship of Miles Parry's coheirs with the object
of marrying one to his grandson Rowland.

The Elizabeth Parry who was mother to William Vaughan of Trefecca was
the sister of Miles Parry of Newcourt (d. 1543), and thus aunt to the
Elizabeth Parry who married Rowland Vaughan of Porthaml (d. 1566).
Another sister to Miles was Blanche Parry, who became a lady-in-
waiting to Elizabeth I. Blanche seems to be a well-researched
individual, so perhaps more information on the Vaughans of Trefecca
can be uncovered through that route:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanche_Parry

On Oct 4, 6:54 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:

> While it is true that the LDS Welsh Medieval Database makes the claim
> that Catherine, wife of David Evans, Esq., is the daughter of William
> Vaughan, of Trefecca, this database ignores several printed sources
> which state without reservation that Catherine, wife of David Evans,
> Esq., is the daughter of Sir William Vaughan, of Porthaml (in
> Breconshire).

How many are "several", and how many of these printed sources in turn
cite back to Clark's 'Limbus Patrum' as the original source?

> For example, Catherine, wife of David Evans, Esq., is correctly placed

You have no authority whatsoever to claim she is "correctly" placed.
You have not produced one piece of primary evidence (will, marriage
contract, assignment of dower, etc.) that provides Catherine's name,
let alone her parentage.

Pedigrees - unless they were taken by a herald in the lifetime of the
individual in question - are not primary evidence.

> as the daughter of Sir William Vaughan, of Porthaml, in the Vaughan
> pedigree published in Williams, Llyfr Baglan, or, Book of Baglan
> (1910): 105–106.  This source gives Sir William Vaughan the following
> child:
>
>   “Katherin [Vaughan] ma. Dauid Evans of Neth, esq.”
>
> The above source may be viewed at the following weblink (go to page
> 105):
>

> https://dcms.lds.org/view/action/ieViewer.do?from_proxy=true&dps_pid=...

Douglas, that weblink didn't work for me, but I'm currently in the
U.K., so it may be restricted. At any rate, I trust you quoted it
correctly. Who, though, is Llyfr Baglan, and why should I assume he
is any authority?

> Even through Catherine, wife of David Evans, appears in this pedigree,
> this information is strangely ignored by the LDS Welsh Medieval
> Database.  That is in spite of the fact that in the online LDS Family
> History Catalog, the catalog entry for Llyfr Baglan informs the reader
> that to view the genealogies of individuals in this source, you are to
> "click here."  When one clicks "here," one is taken to the LDS Welsh
> Medieval Database which obviously missed Catherine Vaughan's marriage
> when the information in this source was extracted for the database.

It sounds confusing, for sure.

> One further comment:  You've claimed that Peter Bartrum identifies
> Catherine Vaughan as the daughter of William Vaughan, of Trefecca,
> based on your reading of the notes for Catherine Vaughan in the Welsh
> Medieval Database.  But the LDS Welsh Medieval Database doesn't say
> that.  And Bartrum doesn't say that either!
>
> Here are weblinks to what Bartrum actually says.
>
> Bartrum, Welsh Genealogies AD 1400–1500 (1983): 1066 (Iestyn 8 (A):
> “Dafydd [ap Ievan] = Catrin f. William Vaughan”).
>
> For this reference in Bartrum, see the following weblink:
>

> http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5025/IESTYN%208...

>
> Bartrum Welsh Gens. 1400–1500 3 (1983): 463 (Drymbenog 2 (C3) —
> Vaughan ped. “Sir William Vaughan Sh[eriff of] Brec[onshire] 1540 =
> Catrin f. Jenkin”).
>
> For this reference in Bartrum, see the following weblink:
>

> http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5082/DRYMBENOG%...

>
> As we can see, in his Evans pedigree [Iestyn 8 (A)], Bartrum states
> that Catherine Vaughan, wife of David Evans, is the daughter of
> William Vaughan [no place given], and refers the reader to the Vaughan
> pedigree labelled Drymbenog 2 (C3).  In the Drymbenog 2 (C3) pedigree,
> Catherine Vaughan is not placed as the daughter of either Sir William
> Vaughan, of Porthaml, nor of his cousin, William Vaughan, of
> Trefecca.

The Drymbenog (C3) pedigree doesn't give children to either William
Vaughan. Instead, it points to two other pedigrees (one for each
William), which I presume provide the children of each William. As
the LDS Welsh Medieval Database must've had some reason for placing
Catrin, wife of David Evans, as the child of William Vaughan of
Trefeca, perhaps she's placed by Bartrum in another pedigree: Trefeca
Talgarth (Bag. 105), or HT, 178? I find the Bartrum pedigrees very
confusing with all of his coding.

> Since both men are found on same page, either man could be
> Catherine's father.  Simply put, you've reached a conclusion which is
> not supported by your sources.

I'll concede that at this point we don't know if Bartrum is the source
for the LDS Welsh Medieval Database's assignment of Catrin Vaughan
Evans to William Vaughan of Trefeca.

Check his pedigree of the children of Sir William Vaughan of
Porthaml. If she's there, then great, you don't have to revise the
Bevan line, and you can now add him as a source to it.

> In the future, if you or someone else believes they have a correction
> or addition for one of my books, I strongly recommend that they
> contact me directly.  If the correction or addition is valid, I'll
> certainly give consideration for its inclusion in a future edition of
> my books.

Thanks, but I enjoy posting the Plantagenet Ancestry Additions &
Corrections to the newsgroup, just as you enjoy doing your Complete
Peerage ones.

Cheers, --------Brad

[John Higgins]

See comments inserted below:

This link doesn't work for me either - did DR check it before he
posted it? A better way to get to these types of items is to instead
cite the FHL catalog entry for the work - here, in this case:
https://familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=266854

The digital version can be easily accessed via the link given there,
but it apparently doesn't work as a stand-alone link.

The introduction to the volume gives a good account of its sources.
It's not clear, however, that these were separate or different from
the sources that Clark used for his "Limbus Patrum".

It should be noted that the compilers of the FHL's Welsh Genealogy
Database do not that there are differing views regarding Catrin
Vaughan's parentage. Because of the weakness of their rigid database
structure (an issue which has been noted here before), they were
forced to choose one alternative - and they may have chosen wrongly.

The Bartrum reference in Catrin Vaughan's entry is clearly not
satisfactory for determining her paternity, because it's a reference
to her husband's family's pedigree in Bartrum and doesn't adequately
identify her father. But there are FIVE other sources given for her
entry (actually three if you exclude duplicates). It seems clear from
the notes that one of these other three sources (Evans' British
Genealogies) supports Sir William Vaughan of Porthaml as Catrin's
father - but that suggests that the other two don't. Unfortunately
all three sources in question are not readily available to those of us
outside SLC - being cited as microfilms at the FHL. Perhaps DR, in
SLC, could do us the service of researching these sources and
accurately reporting what they say about this - and also identify the
"several printed sources" which he says above support his position.

As a refresher, here's the Welsh Genealogy Database entry for Catrin
Vaughan:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I60753&tree=Welsh

>
> > In the future, if you or someone else believes they have a correction
> > or addition for one of my books, I strongly recommend that they
> > contact me directly.  If the correction or addition is valid, I'll
> > certainly give consideration for its inclusion in a future edition of
> > my books.
>
> Thanks, but I enjoy posting the Plantagenet Ancestry Additions &
> Corrections to the newsgroup, just as you enjoy doing your Complete
> Peerage ones.
>
> Cheers,                        --------Brad

I agree entirely with Brad on this. There's no reason why corrections
or additions to PA3 or MCA should be handled privately, rather than
being discussed in a public forum such as this - just as you do with
CP corrections. That's the "collegial" thing to do, isn't it?

[Brad Verity]

On Oct 4, 9:56 am, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> The Elizabeth Parry who was mother to William Vaughan of Trefecca was
> the sister of Miles Parry of Newcourt (d. 1543), and thus aunt to the
> Elizabeth Parry who married Rowland Vaughan of Porthaml (d. 1566).
> Another sister to Miles was Blanche Parry, who became a lady-in-
> waiting to Elizabeth I. Blanche seems to be a well-researched
> individual, so perhaps more information on the Vaughans of Trefecca
> can be uncovered through that route:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanche_Parry

Dear Loren, John Higgins, Douglas, and anyone else interested in this
Bevan line of descent and the Vaughan/Parry families,

I'm sorry that I'm swamped at the moment with my UK visit and don't
have time to research this with the depth & detail it deserves, but it
seems Blanche Perry will help with the chronology for the Parry of
Newcourt line, if nothing else. Here is a link to transcriptions of
IPMs for the family which will at least provide dates to add to the
names in Bartrum's pedigrees:
http://www.blancheparry.com/pdf/property_of_blanches_family.pdf

That particular link mentions the marriage of Elizabeth Parry (calling
her Blanche's eldest sister) to Thomas Vaughan of Tregunter. They
were the parents of William Vaughan of Trefeca and possible
grandparents of Catherine/Catrin Vaughan, wife of David Evans of the
Great House.

I don't have the time to explore the actual website in the next 2
days, but perhaps someone else can dive in and see if there's anything
further that can help establish these Vaughans of Tregunter/Trefeca in
record, and whether Catherine Vaughan Evans should be placed with
them. Here's the link to the general website:
http://www.blancheparry.com/

> Pedigrees - unless they were taken by a herald in the lifetime of the
> individual in question - are not primary evidence.

Just want to add that pedigrees made in the lifetime of the individual
in question do not *have* to be taken by a herald to be considered
primary evidence. It could be a pedigree made by the individual him/
herself, or a relative, etc.

Thanks & Cheers, ------Brad