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Roger fitz Reinfrid: His Family and Connections
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John Watson
Apr 25, 2017, 5:16:18 AM4/25/17
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Dear all,
A couple of weeks ago in this group I made a statement that the wife of Roger fitz Reinfrid was unknown. At that time I had a theory about who she was and wondered if anyone would respond. Since there was no response, I will explain my theory and the evidence behind it, together with a little potted history of Roger, his origins and family.
Origins
Roger son of Reinfrid and his brother magister Walter de Coutances first appear in the household of king Henry II around 1170. Roger as a royal servant and later justiciar and Walter as a king’s clerk, later bishop of Lincoln and archbishop of Rouen. Most sources state that they were from Cornwall, based on a statement of Gerald of Wales that Walter de Coutances was born in Cornwall, of a noble British house, a descendant of Corineus, the fabulous Trojan immigrant. [1] However, Gallia Christiana contains an account that Walter stated at the Council of Rouen (1191?) that he was born at “Pommerayus” in Normandy (probably Saint-Sauveur-la-Pommeraye in Bas Normandie, about 10 miles south of Coutances) of a Breton family, the son of Reinfrid and his wife Gonilla. [2] This seems a more likely origin for the family than that given by Gerald of Wales.
As well as his brother Walter de Coutances, Roger also had a brother named Edward, who witnessed a charter of Reading abbey together with Roger. [3] He also had a sister who married Baldwin son of Gervase. Their son Robert between 1174 and 1184, returned to Tavistock abbey land in Passeford which had been extorted from the abbey through the power and pressure of his uncles Roger fitz Reinfrid and Walter de Coutances, keeper of the royal seal. [4]
Career
Roger fitz Reinfrid is said to have been a protégée of Richard de Lucy and may have entered his service in the 1160’s. He was probably in royal service before Michaelmas 1169. [5] He was employed from 1170 to 1174 with Richard de Lucy in the administration of Windsor. [6] In July 1175, Henry II confirmed to Roger fitz Reinfrid a soke in London given to him by Earl Simon (de St. Liz, III) of Huntingdon. [7] A case in the Curia Regis in 1204, shows that Roger exchanged land in Toft and Menthorpe, Lincolnshire with Earl Simon and Alice de Gant his wife in exchange for three parts of a knight’s fee in Sutton and Beckingham, Lincolnshire and that Roger also held land in Holme, Lincolnshire granted to him by Robert de Gant. [8]
Roger was sheriff of Sussex from Michaelmas 1176 to March 1187 and sheriff of Berkshire in 1188. [9] In January 1176, he was appointed as a justice itinerant in Kent, Surrey, Hampshire, Sussex, Oxfordshire and Berkshire. [10] By 1181, he was one of the regular justices sitting at Westminster. In March 1182, he was one of the witnesses to the will of Henry II, together with his brother William de Coutances, archdeacon of Oxford. [11] He continued to be a justice in eyre throughout the reign of Henry II and into the reign of Richard I. [12] Roger died before Michaelmas 1196 when Reinfrid son of Roger occurs as his father’s heir. [13]
Family
Dugdale [14] says that Roger fitz Reinfrid married Rohese, daughter of William de Roumare and widow of Gilbert de Gant who died in 1256, [15] based solely on the fact that Roger fitz Reinfrid confirmed Gilbert de Gant’s gift of land in Menthorpe, Lincolnshire to Vaudey Abbey. [16] Dugdale was wrong in every respect, since Rohese was the daughter of Gilbert fitz Richard de Clare and after the death of Gilbert de Gant she married Robert fitz Robert fitz Fulk, the ‘sewer’ of William de Percy. [17] As shown above, Roger fitz Reinfrid was a tenant of Gant land in Menthorpe and it was probably in this capacity that he confirmed the land to Vaudey.
Between 1175 and 1186, Roger son of Reinfrid granted to the church of St. Mary Clerkenwell and the nuns serving there, the land which he held of the fee of Roger de Munchesney in Dunmow, Essex, in pure alms for his soul and for Alice his wife, his ancestors and descendants, for the service of one twelfth of a knight's fee. His wife Alice and Margaret her mother were to be received as nuns, if they wish, and are to be buried in the nunnery. After his death, service is to be made for them and him as if for the nuns. [18]
The identity of Robert fitz Reinfrid’s wife Alice is revealed in a case in the Curia Regis in 1211, concerning land in Ramsden, Essex, between Richard de Clare and his wife Alina, widow of Reinfrid fitz Roger fitz Reinfrid and Richard de Bellhus. Richard called Ralph de Bruer to warrant the dower of Alina as brother and heir of Reinfrid. Ralph said that the land was the maritagium of Alice his mother given to her by Ralph Britone, his uncle, and after the death of her husband Roger, she had given it to Reinfrid her son. [19]
From this statement is can be reasoned that the mother of Reinfrid fitz Roger fitz Reinfrid and his brother Ralph de Bruer was Alice and that she had a brother, or brother-in-law, named Ralph Britone, the uncle of Reinfrid and Ralph.
This Ralph Britone is normally known as Ralph Brito, a king’s justiciar who died early in 1186. [20] Ralph Brito married firstly Maud, daughter of Jordan de Bricett and his wife Muriel de Mounteny, and great-granddaughter of Richard de Lucy [21] and, secondly a sister of Gilbert Foliot, bishop of Hereford and later of London. [22]
It appears that Alice wife of Roger fitz Reinfrid was also a sister of the bishop. However, the bishop’s mother was Agnes de Chesney, and Alice’s mother was named Margaret. This means that Robert Foliot I, (died about 1155) father of bishop Gilbert Foliot had second wife named Margaret. Between December 1148 and 1150, Robert Foliot and his wife Margaret granted to St. Peter of Westminster and the monks, the manor of Sulby, Northamtonshire, to hold for the service of one knight, as they rendered to the grantors' predecessors, in the reign of Henry I. [23] The editors of Westminster Abbey Charters considered that Robert Foliot II and his wife Margery de Raimbeaucourt made this deed, but according to Dugdale, they did not marry until about 1168.
Through his marriage to Gilbert Foliot’s sister, Roger fitz Reinfrid became linked to several influential families, including that of Ralph Brito, another protégée of Richard de Lucy. Roger witnessed several charters of a kinsman of the bishop, Henry Foliot and Lecia de Bricett his wife, to St. Mary Clerkenwell. [24] According to testimony given in the Curia Regis in 1211, Roger was granted land in Ramsden, Essex by Gilbert Foliot, bishop of London. [25] The land which Roger held in Holme, Beckingham and Sutton, Lincolnshire also appears to have been granted to him by Gilbert Foliot’s brother Elias. [26] His son Ralph quitclaimed it in 1229 to Christian Ledet, whose mother was Margery daughter of Richard Foliot, son of the bishop’s brother Robert (II). [27]
Roger fitz Reinfrid and his wife Alice Foliot had at least four sons: -
(i) Reinfrid, son and heir, known as Reinfrid de Bruer (or de la Bruer). He married Alina, daughter of Geoffrey fitz Baldwin. He died s.p. about 1208. His widow married secondly Richard de Clare, earl of Hertford (died 1217) and thirdly Hugh de Clayhill who died in 1221. [28]
(ii) Ralph, known as Ralph de Bruer, heir of his brother Reinfrid. In 1227, he granted his demesne lands in the manor of Edenham, Lincolnshire to the abbey of Vaudey. [29] He was living in April 1229 when he quitclaimed to Henry de Braybrook and Christian Ledet his wife, land in Holme, Beckingham and Sutton, Lincolnshire, and the advowson of Beckingham. [30]
(iii) Gilbert fitz Roger, also known as Gilbert fitz Reinfrid, who married between 1185 and 1189, Helewise, daughter of William de Lancaster and became lord of Kentdale in Westmorland. [31] He died shortly before 6 May 1220.[32]
(iv) William fitz Roger, canon of Lincoln and archdeacon of Rouen, also known as William de Coutances. After 1196, William son of Roger, archdeacon of Rouen and Gilbert his brother witnessed a charter by their brother Reinfrid to St. Mary, Clerkenwell. [33]
Regards,
John
References:
[1] J. S. Brewer, et al, ed., Giraldi Cambrensis Opera, vol. 7: Vita S. Remigii, et Vita S. Hugonis (1877), 38: "Walterus, de Constanciis dictus, sed revera de Cornei domo Cornubiage natus, et nobili Britonum gente ac Trojana stirpe originaliter proagatus."
[2] Gallia Christiana, vol. 11 (Paris, 1759), 51: "Walterius (de Coutances): Patre Rainfredo natus Walterius, et matre Gonilla, quam ex regio genti suae genere prognatum ferunt, ait Pommerayus Concil. Rotomag., natione Britannus erat, ex eodem Pommerayo ibidem et Sammarthanis, quanquam Constancia, cujus agnomen habuit, urbs est non Britanniae, sed Normanniae."
[3] Patricia M. Barnes and C. F. Slade, eds., A Medieval Miscellany for Doris Mary Stenton, Pipe Roll Society, New Series, vol. 36 (1960), 242.
[4] William Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 2 (1846), 499, Tavistock Monastery, Num. XI.
[5] R. W. Eyton, Court, Household, and Itinerary of King Henry II (1878), 130.
[6] Pipe Rolls, 18 Henry II, 17; 20 Henry II, 9, 116, 117.
[7] G. F. Warner and H. J. Ellis, eds., Facsimiles of Royal and Other Charters in the British Museum, vol. 1 (1903), 54.
[8] Placitorum in Domo Capitulari Westmonasteriensi Asservatorum Abbreviatio, Record Commission (1811), 48b.
[9] Thirty-First Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records (1870), 263, 347.
[10] R. W. Eyton, Court, Household, and Itinerary of King Henry II (1878), 199.
[11] William Stubbs, ed., The Chronicle of the Reigns of Stephen, Henry II, and Richard I by Gervase the Monk of Canterbury, vol. 1 (1879), 298.
[12] J. Horace Round, ed., Calendar of Documents Preserved in France 918-1206 (1899), 150, no. 444.
[13] D. M. Stenton, ed., The Chancellors's Roll for the eighth year of the Reign of King Richard the First, Pipe Roll Society, vol. 45, New Series, 7 (1930), 7.
[14] William Dugdale, The Baronage of England, vol. 1 (1675), 400.
[15] Thomas Stapleton, ed., Magni Rotuli Scaccarii Normaniae sub Regibus Angliae, vol. 2, Society of Antiquaries of London (1844), Observations, clvi.
[16] William Dugdale, Monsasticon Anglicanum, vol. 5 (1846), 490, Num. III.
[17] Complete Peerage, vol. 7 (1929), 673.
[18] W. O. Hassall, ed., Cartulary of St. Mary Clerkenwell, Camden Third Series, 71 (1949), 70, no. 105.
[19] Placitorum in Domo Capitulari Westmonasteriensi Asservatorum Abbreviatio, Record Commission (1811), 82b.
[20] The Great Roll of the Pipe for the Thirty-Third Year of King Henry the Second: 1186-1187, Pipe Roll Society, 37 (1915), xxxiv.
[21] R. Bevan and P. Dale, "A Rose by Any Other Name: Another Daughter of Richard de Lucy," Foundations, vol. 6 (2014), 28.
[22] Adrian Morey and C. N. L. Brooke, eds, Gilbert Foliot and his Letters (1965), 33.
[23] Emma Mason, Jennifer Bray, eds., Westminster Abbey Charters, 1066-c.1214, London Record Society (1988), no. 479.
http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/00050479
[24] W. O. Hassall, ed., Cartulary of St. Mary Clerkenwell, Camden Third Series, 71 (1949), nos. 56, 63, 72, 82.
[25] Placitorum in Domo Capitulari Westmonasteriensi Asservatorum Abbreviatio, Record Commission (1811), 82b.
[26] G. Wrottesley, Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls (1905), 525.
[27] W. O. Massingberd, ed., Abstracts of Final Concords, vol. 1, Lincoln Records (1896), 223.
[28] Michael Gervers, ed., The Cartulary of the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem in England: Secunda camera, Essex (1982), 536, 547, 549.
[29] Calendar of Charter Rolls, vol. 1, Henry III: 1226-1257 (1903), 50.
[30] W. O. Massingberd, ed., Abstracts of Final Concords, vol. 1, Lincoln Records (1896), 223.
[31] William Farrer, ed., The Lancashire Pipe Rolls also Early Lancashire Charters (1902), 395
[32] Calendar of Fine Rolls 4 Henry III, No. 141.
[33] W. O. Hassall, ed., Cartulary of St. Mary Clerkenwell, Camden Third Series, 71 (1949), 69, no. 104.
A couple of weeks ago in this group I made a statement that the wife of Roger fitz Reinfrid was unknown. At that time I had a theory about who she was and wondered if anyone would respond. Since there was no response, I will explain my theory and the evidence behind it, together with a little potted history of Roger, his origins and family.
Origins
Roger son of Reinfrid and his brother magister Walter de Coutances first appear in the household of king Henry II around 1170. Roger as a royal servant and later justiciar and Walter as a king’s clerk, later bishop of Lincoln and archbishop of Rouen. Most sources state that they were from Cornwall, based on a statement of Gerald of Wales that Walter de Coutances was born in Cornwall, of a noble British house, a descendant of Corineus, the fabulous Trojan immigrant. [1] However, Gallia Christiana contains an account that Walter stated at the Council of Rouen (1191?) that he was born at “Pommerayus” in Normandy (probably Saint-Sauveur-la-Pommeraye in Bas Normandie, about 10 miles south of Coutances) of a Breton family, the son of Reinfrid and his wife Gonilla. [2] This seems a more likely origin for the family than that given by Gerald of Wales.
As well as his brother Walter de Coutances, Roger also had a brother named Edward, who witnessed a charter of Reading abbey together with Roger. [3] He also had a sister who married Baldwin son of Gervase. Their son Robert between 1174 and 1184, returned to Tavistock abbey land in Passeford which had been extorted from the abbey through the power and pressure of his uncles Roger fitz Reinfrid and Walter de Coutances, keeper of the royal seal. [4]
Career
Roger fitz Reinfrid is said to have been a protégée of Richard de Lucy and may have entered his service in the 1160’s. He was probably in royal service before Michaelmas 1169. [5] He was employed from 1170 to 1174 with Richard de Lucy in the administration of Windsor. [6] In July 1175, Henry II confirmed to Roger fitz Reinfrid a soke in London given to him by Earl Simon (de St. Liz, III) of Huntingdon. [7] A case in the Curia Regis in 1204, shows that Roger exchanged land in Toft and Menthorpe, Lincolnshire with Earl Simon and Alice de Gant his wife in exchange for three parts of a knight’s fee in Sutton and Beckingham, Lincolnshire and that Roger also held land in Holme, Lincolnshire granted to him by Robert de Gant. [8]
Roger was sheriff of Sussex from Michaelmas 1176 to March 1187 and sheriff of Berkshire in 1188. [9] In January 1176, he was appointed as a justice itinerant in Kent, Surrey, Hampshire, Sussex, Oxfordshire and Berkshire. [10] By 1181, he was one of the regular justices sitting at Westminster. In March 1182, he was one of the witnesses to the will of Henry II, together with his brother William de Coutances, archdeacon of Oxford. [11] He continued to be a justice in eyre throughout the reign of Henry II and into the reign of Richard I. [12] Roger died before Michaelmas 1196 when Reinfrid son of Roger occurs as his father’s heir. [13]
Family
Dugdale [14] says that Roger fitz Reinfrid married Rohese, daughter of William de Roumare and widow of Gilbert de Gant who died in 1256, [15] based solely on the fact that Roger fitz Reinfrid confirmed Gilbert de Gant’s gift of land in Menthorpe, Lincolnshire to Vaudey Abbey. [16] Dugdale was wrong in every respect, since Rohese was the daughter of Gilbert fitz Richard de Clare and after the death of Gilbert de Gant she married Robert fitz Robert fitz Fulk, the ‘sewer’ of William de Percy. [17] As shown above, Roger fitz Reinfrid was a tenant of Gant land in Menthorpe and it was probably in this capacity that he confirmed the land to Vaudey.
Between 1175 and 1186, Roger son of Reinfrid granted to the church of St. Mary Clerkenwell and the nuns serving there, the land which he held of the fee of Roger de Munchesney in Dunmow, Essex, in pure alms for his soul and for Alice his wife, his ancestors and descendants, for the service of one twelfth of a knight's fee. His wife Alice and Margaret her mother were to be received as nuns, if they wish, and are to be buried in the nunnery. After his death, service is to be made for them and him as if for the nuns. [18]
The identity of Robert fitz Reinfrid’s wife Alice is revealed in a case in the Curia Regis in 1211, concerning land in Ramsden, Essex, between Richard de Clare and his wife Alina, widow of Reinfrid fitz Roger fitz Reinfrid and Richard de Bellhus. Richard called Ralph de Bruer to warrant the dower of Alina as brother and heir of Reinfrid. Ralph said that the land was the maritagium of Alice his mother given to her by Ralph Britone, his uncle, and after the death of her husband Roger, she had given it to Reinfrid her son. [19]
From this statement is can be reasoned that the mother of Reinfrid fitz Roger fitz Reinfrid and his brother Ralph de Bruer was Alice and that she had a brother, or brother-in-law, named Ralph Britone, the uncle of Reinfrid and Ralph.
This Ralph Britone is normally known as Ralph Brito, a king’s justiciar who died early in 1186. [20] Ralph Brito married firstly Maud, daughter of Jordan de Bricett and his wife Muriel de Mounteny, and great-granddaughter of Richard de Lucy [21] and, secondly a sister of Gilbert Foliot, bishop of Hereford and later of London. [22]
It appears that Alice wife of Roger fitz Reinfrid was also a sister of the bishop. However, the bishop’s mother was Agnes de Chesney, and Alice’s mother was named Margaret. This means that Robert Foliot I, (died about 1155) father of bishop Gilbert Foliot had second wife named Margaret. Between December 1148 and 1150, Robert Foliot and his wife Margaret granted to St. Peter of Westminster and the monks, the manor of Sulby, Northamtonshire, to hold for the service of one knight, as they rendered to the grantors' predecessors, in the reign of Henry I. [23] The editors of Westminster Abbey Charters considered that Robert Foliot II and his wife Margery de Raimbeaucourt made this deed, but according to Dugdale, they did not marry until about 1168.
Through his marriage to Gilbert Foliot’s sister, Roger fitz Reinfrid became linked to several influential families, including that of Ralph Brito, another protégée of Richard de Lucy. Roger witnessed several charters of a kinsman of the bishop, Henry Foliot and Lecia de Bricett his wife, to St. Mary Clerkenwell. [24] According to testimony given in the Curia Regis in 1211, Roger was granted land in Ramsden, Essex by Gilbert Foliot, bishop of London. [25] The land which Roger held in Holme, Beckingham and Sutton, Lincolnshire also appears to have been granted to him by Gilbert Foliot’s brother Elias. [26] His son Ralph quitclaimed it in 1229 to Christian Ledet, whose mother was Margery daughter of Richard Foliot, son of the bishop’s brother Robert (II). [27]
Roger fitz Reinfrid and his wife Alice Foliot had at least four sons: -
(i) Reinfrid, son and heir, known as Reinfrid de Bruer (or de la Bruer). He married Alina, daughter of Geoffrey fitz Baldwin. He died s.p. about 1208. His widow married secondly Richard de Clare, earl of Hertford (died 1217) and thirdly Hugh de Clayhill who died in 1221. [28]
(ii) Ralph, known as Ralph de Bruer, heir of his brother Reinfrid. In 1227, he granted his demesne lands in the manor of Edenham, Lincolnshire to the abbey of Vaudey. [29] He was living in April 1229 when he quitclaimed to Henry de Braybrook and Christian Ledet his wife, land in Holme, Beckingham and Sutton, Lincolnshire, and the advowson of Beckingham. [30]
(iii) Gilbert fitz Roger, also known as Gilbert fitz Reinfrid, who married between 1185 and 1189, Helewise, daughter of William de Lancaster and became lord of Kentdale in Westmorland. [31] He died shortly before 6 May 1220.[32]
(iv) William fitz Roger, canon of Lincoln and archdeacon of Rouen, also known as William de Coutances. After 1196, William son of Roger, archdeacon of Rouen and Gilbert his brother witnessed a charter by their brother Reinfrid to St. Mary, Clerkenwell. [33]
Regards,
John
References:
[1] J. S. Brewer, et al, ed., Giraldi Cambrensis Opera, vol. 7: Vita S. Remigii, et Vita S. Hugonis (1877), 38: "Walterus, de Constanciis dictus, sed revera de Cornei domo Cornubiage natus, et nobili Britonum gente ac Trojana stirpe originaliter proagatus."
[2] Gallia Christiana, vol. 11 (Paris, 1759), 51: "Walterius (de Coutances): Patre Rainfredo natus Walterius, et matre Gonilla, quam ex regio genti suae genere prognatum ferunt, ait Pommerayus Concil. Rotomag., natione Britannus erat, ex eodem Pommerayo ibidem et Sammarthanis, quanquam Constancia, cujus agnomen habuit, urbs est non Britanniae, sed Normanniae."
[3] Patricia M. Barnes and C. F. Slade, eds., A Medieval Miscellany for Doris Mary Stenton, Pipe Roll Society, New Series, vol. 36 (1960), 242.
[4] William Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 2 (1846), 499, Tavistock Monastery, Num. XI.
[5] R. W. Eyton, Court, Household, and Itinerary of King Henry II (1878), 130.
[6] Pipe Rolls, 18 Henry II, 17; 20 Henry II, 9, 116, 117.
[7] G. F. Warner and H. J. Ellis, eds., Facsimiles of Royal and Other Charters in the British Museum, vol. 1 (1903), 54.
[8] Placitorum in Domo Capitulari Westmonasteriensi Asservatorum Abbreviatio, Record Commission (1811), 48b.
[9] Thirty-First Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records (1870), 263, 347.
[10] R. W. Eyton, Court, Household, and Itinerary of King Henry II (1878), 199.
[11] William Stubbs, ed., The Chronicle of the Reigns of Stephen, Henry II, and Richard I by Gervase the Monk of Canterbury, vol. 1 (1879), 298.
[12] J. Horace Round, ed., Calendar of Documents Preserved in France 918-1206 (1899), 150, no. 444.
[13] D. M. Stenton, ed., The Chancellors's Roll for the eighth year of the Reign of King Richard the First, Pipe Roll Society, vol. 45, New Series, 7 (1930), 7.
[14] William Dugdale, The Baronage of England, vol. 1 (1675), 400.
[15] Thomas Stapleton, ed., Magni Rotuli Scaccarii Normaniae sub Regibus Angliae, vol. 2, Society of Antiquaries of London (1844), Observations, clvi.
[16] William Dugdale, Monsasticon Anglicanum, vol. 5 (1846), 490, Num. III.
[17] Complete Peerage, vol. 7 (1929), 673.
[18] W. O. Hassall, ed., Cartulary of St. Mary Clerkenwell, Camden Third Series, 71 (1949), 70, no. 105.
[19] Placitorum in Domo Capitulari Westmonasteriensi Asservatorum Abbreviatio, Record Commission (1811), 82b.
[20] The Great Roll of the Pipe for the Thirty-Third Year of King Henry the Second: 1186-1187, Pipe Roll Society, 37 (1915), xxxiv.
[21] R. Bevan and P. Dale, "A Rose by Any Other Name: Another Daughter of Richard de Lucy," Foundations, vol. 6 (2014), 28.
[22] Adrian Morey and C. N. L. Brooke, eds, Gilbert Foliot and his Letters (1965), 33.
[23] Emma Mason, Jennifer Bray, eds., Westminster Abbey Charters, 1066-c.1214, London Record Society (1988), no. 479.
http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/00050479
[24] W. O. Hassall, ed., Cartulary of St. Mary Clerkenwell, Camden Third Series, 71 (1949), nos. 56, 63, 72, 82.
[25] Placitorum in Domo Capitulari Westmonasteriensi Asservatorum Abbreviatio, Record Commission (1811), 82b.
[26] G. Wrottesley, Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls (1905), 525.
[27] W. O. Massingberd, ed., Abstracts of Final Concords, vol. 1, Lincoln Records (1896), 223.
[28] Michael Gervers, ed., The Cartulary of the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem in England: Secunda camera, Essex (1982), 536, 547, 549.
[29] Calendar of Charter Rolls, vol. 1, Henry III: 1226-1257 (1903), 50.
[30] W. O. Massingberd, ed., Abstracts of Final Concords, vol. 1, Lincoln Records (1896), 223.
[31] William Farrer, ed., The Lancashire Pipe Rolls also Early Lancashire Charters (1902), 395
[32] Calendar of Fine Rolls 4 Henry III, No. 141.
[33] W. O. Hassall, ed., Cartulary of St. Mary Clerkenwell, Camden Third Series, 71 (1949), 69, no. 104.
Andrew Lancaster
Apr 26, 2017, 5:54:10 AM4/26/17
to
On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 11:16:18 AM UTC+2, John Watson wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> A couple of weeks ago in this group I made a statement that the wife of Roger fitz Reinfrid was unknown. At that time I had a theory about who she was and wondered if anyone would respond. Since there was no response, I will explain my theory and the evidence behind it, together with a little potted history of Roger, his origins and family.
Great post John!
> Dear all,
>
> A couple of weeks ago in this group I made a statement that the wife of Roger fitz Reinfrid was unknown. At that time I had a theory about who she was and wondered if anyone would respond. Since there was no response, I will explain my theory and the evidence behind it, together with a little potted history of Roger, his origins and family.
I might be missing something but how do you exclude Alice being a sister of Ralph Brito?
From memory the Wikipedia articles for some of these people could do with a few additional sources! (Wikipedia will not want any original unpublished theories, because it summarizes published things, but even just adding the extra evidence would be good.)
Regards
Andrew
John Watson
Apr 26, 2017, 11:11:46 AM4/26/17
to
My first guess was that Alice was Ralph Brito's sister, but when I looked at the property held by Roger fitz Reinfrid and his heirs it all seemed to be connected with the Foliot or Gant families. It took me a while to figure out that when Ralph de Bruer refers to Ralph Brito as his uncle, that there are other possibilities. Finding that Robert Foliot I had a second wife named Margaret was what clinched it for me.
There are still a few unanswered questions, such as why Roger's sons adopted the family name of Bruer. I suspect it has something to do with the Bruer family of Okehampton, Devon but I don't see any connection, unless it is through Margaret, the wife of Robert Foliot.
Has nobody noticed my addition to Complete Peerage?
Regards,
John
Nicole Forsgren
Apr 27, 2017, 2:08:26 AM4/27/17
to
Question:
The Alina you mention, would she be a 2nd wife of Richard de Clare or replace the "Amice" daughter of William fitz Robert (2nd Earl of Gloucester) that is mentioned in The Complete Peerage? (vol. 3, p. 244) Or am I looking at the wrong Richard de Clare?
Nicole
The Alina you mention, would she be a 2nd wife of Richard de Clare or replace the "Amice" daughter of William fitz Robert (2nd Earl of Gloucester) that is mentioned in The Complete Peerage? (vol. 3, p. 244) Or am I looking at the wrong Richard de Clare?
Nicole
On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 3:16:18 AM UTC-6, John Watson wrote:
>
> (i) Reinfrid, son and heir, known as Reinfrid de Bruer (or de la Bruer). He married Alina, daughter of Geoffrey fitz Baldwin. He died s.p. about 1208. His widow married secondly Richard de Clare, earl of Hertford (died 1217) and thirdly Hugh de Clayhill who died in 1221. [28]
>
>
> (i) Reinfrid, son and heir, known as Reinfrid de Bruer (or de la Bruer). He married Alina, daughter of Geoffrey fitz Baldwin. He died s.p. about 1208. His widow married secondly Richard de Clare, earl of Hertford (died 1217) and thirdly Hugh de Clayhill who died in 1221. [28]
>
Andrew Lancaster
Apr 27, 2017, 4:09:59 AM4/27/17
to
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 5:11:46 PM UTC+2, John Watson wrote:
> Has nobody noticed my addition to Complete Peerage?
Where? On the Medieval Genealogy website? Please give URL. (I just searched but did not find it immediately.) Or are you proposing that the information in this thread should lead to a new entry there? I notice your post as an equivalent blog entry http://johnmwatson.blogspot.be/2017/04/roger-fitz-reinfrid-his-family-and.html
> Has nobody noticed my addition to Complete Peerage?
John Watson
Apr 27, 2017, 4:13:54 AM4/27/17
to
Close, but no cigar. See Complete Peerage, vol. 6. pp. 501-3. Richard de Clare, third Earl of Hertford, known as Earl of Clare, married Amice, second daughter of William fitz Robert, Earl of Gloucester. CP says that they appear to have been separated (perhaps pending a dispensation) prior to 1200. Actually it seems that they were divorced.
Richard de Clare married, secondly Alina, daughter of Geoffrey fitz Baldwin and widow of Reinfrid fitz Roger, who died about 1208. He died between 30 October and 28 November 1217. Alina married, thirdly Hugh de Clayhill (Clahull) who died about 1221.
See Michael Gervers, ed., The Cartulary of the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem in England: Secunda camera, Essex (1982)
I don't have access to this publication except in Google 'snippet' view, but the Latin text of many of the deeds is available online in the University of Toronto, DEEDS database. The relevant deeds concerning land in Harefield, Middlesex and Tindon in Great Sampford, Essex are:
http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/00880926
http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/00880924
http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/00880925
http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/00880906
http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/00880907
http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/00880927
http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/99900283
Regards,
John
John Watson
Apr 27, 2017, 4:46:59 AM4/27/17
to
Most of the information on the Medieval Genealogy website relating to additions and correction to Complete Peerage is several years old. Many more have been posted and discussed here in the past few years.
My blog entry contains a slightly amended text of the original post, since I noted a couple of typos. In one place I called Walter de Coutances, William de Coutances. Is there a name for this phenomenon where your mind says one thing and your fingers type something else? Senility?
Regards,
John
Peter Stewart
Apr 27, 2017, 5:04:26 AM4/27/17
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
to induce it.
I must be missing something as it's not to me clear why Richard earl of
Hertford is identified as the second husband of Alina, rather than his
namesake uncle as her first husband. She didn't call herself "comitissa"
or her late husband "comes" as far as I can see.
Peter Stewart
John Watson
Apr 27, 2017, 5:50:25 AM4/27/17
to
That was something that I hadn't considered. The editors of the Cartulary of the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem, from what I can see of it, appear to consider that Alina's husband Richard de Clare was the same person as Richard de Clare, earl of Hertford.
It certainly seems to be a possibility that Alina married firstly Richard de Clare, uncle of earl Richard de Clare. From a note in CP (vol. 6, 499, note (e)), it appears that Richard the uncle was dead before 1203 (4 John), which would fit the chronology.
So maybe not a correction to CP after all.
Regards,
John
mk
Apr 27, 2017, 12:25:23 PM4/27/17
to John Watson, GenMedieval
Didn't you also mention a Richard de Bellhus as a former husband of Aline?
Did she have 4 spouses?
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Did she have 4 spouses?
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John Watson
Apr 27, 2017, 1:15:29 PM4/27/17
to
Maybe my punctuation needs improvement. The curia regis case was between Richard de Bellhus and Richard de Clare and Alina his wife, widow of Reinfrid fitz Roger.
Regards,
John
mk
Apr 27, 2017, 7:15:54 PM4/27/17
to John Watson, GenMedieval
thanks for the clarification, I see how it was meant to be read now
janette...@talk21.com
Apr 29, 2017, 11:46:18 PM4/29/17
to
Thanks for the great post.
Roger fitz Reinfrid also had a brother, Joscelin, who was identified as the father of Alice, wife of Simon de Echingham by William Slater Esq.
See the following from early Sussex Archaeological Collections, available on ine through the Lewes History Group website.
William Slater Esq 'On Echingham Church' SAC 9 p 344: - Simon de Echingham married Alice, a daughter of Joscelyn Fitz-Reinfred in 1183
Additional Materials towards the history of St Pancras at Lewes
Sir G. F. Duckett Bart SAC 39 p119
Fo. 74, No. 4, . —Gaufridus de Sco Ligerio [St. Leger] grants to the Monks of Lewes all the fief of Crocteslea [Croteslyve], which his father formerly granted to them, as well in lands as in churches. Testibus.—" Rogerio filio Rainfredi,45 Jocelino fre ejus, Edwardo fre ejus, Michaele de Torneha, Stephano de sco Martino, Radulfo de Cudenne, Wilto clerico, Gileberto clerico."
45 Roger Fitz Reinfrid was Sheriff of Sussex 23 H. II., and his name fixes the :date of this charter temp. H. II. or Richard I.
Regards
Janette
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