Who was Harold de Ewyas?
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Dick Ledyard wrote,
>
> > If someone has access to CP, vol. 11, pp 412-413, I would like to know
> > the lineage of the Sudelys on those pages. The film I have at the LDS
> > does not have those pages. Page 411 leaves off with Ralph, 2nd son of
> > Dreux and Godifu.
> > I have Robert de Ewyas, s. of Robert FitzHarold de Ewyas, s. of Harold
> > de Sudely, s. of Ralph de Sudely, s. of Dreux, that I am trying to
> > confirm. Page 411 only confirms the last two.
>
> CP Vol 12 (i) p 412-3
>
> Leaving out biographical details,
>
> Ralph 2nd s of Dreux and Godgifu m Getha (fn - ref to Domesday Book) and he
> died 21 Dec 1057 and was bur at Peterborough
>
> Harold de Sudeley, s&h {fn - to Domesday Book), wife and date of death
> unknown
>
> John de Sudeley; s&h; m Grace d of William de Tracy, a natural son of King
> Henry I {fn to Cart. S. P. de Glouc., ant to Gloucester Cartulary)
>
> Ralph de Sudeley s&h {fn to preceding fn and to Register of Winchcombe); In
> 1169 owed 2 shillings for the aid to marry the King's daughter (fn to Pipe
> Rolls) [perhaps someone can explain what this means, it looks to me as
> though it may be some sort of tax?]; m Emma {fn Dugdale and Register of
> Winchcombe); He d before, Michaelmas 1192. [this is now from page 414] She
> apparently surv. him and was bur at Winchcombe Abbey
>
> Sorry, I cannot see any ref to the Robert FitzHarold de Ewyas, nor mention
> of Ewyas under the above Harold - who held Sudeley, Toddington Chilvers
> Coton, Burton Dasset (co Warw) and Droitwich (co Worc)
>
> However, in K. S. B. Keats-Rohan "Domesday People" calls him "Harold De
> Ewias" s&h of Ralph of Dreux, Earl of Hereford, and Goda, sister of Edward
> the Confessor; [CP gives Ralph as son, not wife, of Goda/Godgifu?]; In 1100
> he founded priory of Ewyas Harold, He was suc. by his son Robert [not John
> as above?] some time after 1100.
>
> Keats-Rohan refers the reader to:
>
> i) D. Bate "Lord Sudeley's Ancestors: the family of the counts of Amiens,
> Valois and the Vexin" in The Sudeleys - Lords of Toddington, The Manorial
> Society of Great Britain (1987)
>
> and
>
> ii) A. Williams, "The king's nephew: the family, career and connections of
> Ralph, earl of Hereford", in Studies in Medieval History Presented to R.
> Allen Brown, ed. C. Harper-Bill et al. (Woodbridge, 1989)
>
> In CP Vol VI p 446/7 under Hereford - "A pre-Conquest Earldom of Hereford
> has been assigned to Ralph, s. of Dreux, Count of the Vexin, by Goda,
> sister of Edward the Confessor, but he is first credited with an Earldom of
> Worcester prior to 1049 .......", but no more on his genealogy. (BTW The
> next under Hereford is William FitzOsbern, seigneur de Breteuil, s&h of
> Osbern steward of Normandy by Emma, d of Ralph, Count of Ivry and was cr
> Earl of Hereford in 1067)
>
> I cannot see that CP has made any cross-ref. to the Sudeley article.
>
> There does not appear to be anything of relevence under CP 12 (ii),
> Worcester, the 1st shown there is Waleran cr Earl of Worcester in 1138,
> there is a ref back to Appendix I of Vol VII, but on a quick glance, again
> there does not seem to be anything of relevance.
>
> regards Adrian
>
> Adrian (Surrey, UK) ACha...@CompuServe.Com
I've searched the archives, as you can see, and can find no answer to
the problems Adrian raised.
CP XIV has nothing on this.
There are the two issues:
1. Who is right about Godifu's first husband? Was it Dreux (CP) or
Ralph (K-R)?
2. Was Harold de Ewias in K-R the same as Harold de Sudeley in CP? If
so, what's the line-up between the sons Robert (K-R) and John (CP)?
Does anyone have any more on them? (Has anyone managed to find the two
articles Keats-Rohan referred to, even?)
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
ADRIANC...@aol.com
Note that I posted a short follow-up to my original post:
"For wife, read husband.
Stenton's "Anglo-Saxon England" agrees with CP"
I see that two Robert de Ewyas appear in the Bradenstoke cartulary and would
seem to be the two mentioned in Dick Ledyards post, but does not help with
the current problem.
Adrian
~~~~~~ s/b
husband
Chris Phillips
> There are the two issues:
>
> 1. Who is right about Godifu's first husband? Was it Dreux (CP) or
> Ralph (K-R)?
I think Keats-Rohan must have made a slip by speaking of Harold as the son
of "Ralph of Dreux" and Goda. Every secondary source I have here says that
Ralph was the son of Goda, not her husband (as, indeed, suggested by the
title of one of the papers referred to by Keats-Rohan: "The king's _nephew_:
the family, career and connections of Ralph, earl of Hereford").
Moreover, Eustace of Boulogne was already married to king Edward's sister by
1051 [Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, ed. Garmonsway, p.173], whereas according to
Keats-Rohan, Harold was a minor at the date of Domesday, so he must have
been born much later, after the conquest.
> 2. Was Harold de Ewias in K-R the same as Harold de Sudeley in CP? If
> so, what's the line-up between the sons Robert (K-R) and John (CP)?
Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants", helps with these questions. According
to entries on "de Ewias" (p. 453) and "de Sudeley" (p. 725), Harold's son
Robert succeeded after 1100.
According to another entry, Harold also had a son Roger de Ewias, said to be
holding in 1166 "one fee of Hugh de Lacy and a fee at Clive from his brother
Robert de Ewias" (this itself is confusing, as above K-R says this brother
Robert was succeeded by his son Robert II "after 1147).
But John de Sudeley is said on p. 725 to be the third son of harold, and to
have married Grace, the daughter of William de Tracy, being succeeded before
1166 by his sons Ralph of Sudeley and William de Tracy.
Chris Phillips
Chris Phillips
Chris Phillips wrote:
> Moreover, Eustace of Boulogne was already married to king Edward's sister
by
> 1051 [Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, ed. Garmonsway, p.173], whereas according to
> Keats-Rohan, Harold was a minor at the date of Domesday, so he must have
> been born much later, after the conquest.
Sorry, that's not right, as Keats-Rohan corrects this on "Domesday
Descendants", p. 4, to say that Harold was a "Minor in 1066" It should have
been obvious that he couldn't be a minor in 1086, as his father died in
1057!
Chris Phillips
John Ravilious
Dear Tim, Adrian, et al.,
From the information I have to hand (incl. D. C. Douglas, William the
Conqueror, pp. 167-171) the identification of the husband of Goda, or Godgifu,
daughter of Ethelred II seems accurately made as Dreux of Mantes; Ralph the
Timid, Earl of Hereford, was her son. If someone can access the article by
A. Williams entitled 'The King's Nephew:...' I wager that will provide further
evidence along those lines. I have appended the (current, if correctable)
line of descent for the lords of Ewyas Harold.
Most significantly, the chronology supports one aspect: as Goda must have
been born no later than 1017 (if posthumous), it would make it very hard for
KSB Keats-Rohan's calling her the mother of Harold de Ewias (a minor in 1086)
feasible. Harold was apparently born in 1065 at the absolute latest based on
this citation, by KSBKR (DP, p. 245).
The only other problem seems that Harold de Ewias, tenant in Herefordshire
in 1086, must have been a grandson of Ralph the Timid, Earl of Hereford: if
Harold was in fact a minor in 1086, he could not be the son of a man who was
killed in 1057.....
Hope this is helpful.
John
_________________________
1 Ethelred II 'Unraed' of England
----------------------------------------
Death: 1016
Occ: King of England 979 - 1013, 1014 - 1016
Father: Edgar of England
Mother: Elfrida
Spouse: Emma of Normandy, 2nd wife
Father: Richard 'sans Peur' (the Fearless), duke of Normandy (-0996)
Mother: Gunnora
Children:
Goda
Alfred (-1036)
Edward (-1065)
Other Spouses Elfleda, first wife
1.1a Goda of England*
----------------------------------------
she m. lstly Dreux of Mantes,
2ndly Eustace of Boulogne[1]
Spouse: Dreux of Mantes
Death: 1035, on pilgrimage[2]
Children:
Walter (-1063)
Ralph 'the Timid' (-1057)
Other Spouses Eustace II of Boulogne
1.1a.1 Walter of Mantes
----------------------------------------
Death: 1063[1]
Occ: Count of the Vexin
claimant to the county of Maine in right of his wife
captured by William the Conqueror after siege of Le Mans; d. in captivity[1]
Spouse: Biota of Maine
Death: 1063[1]
Father: Heribert 'Wake-Dog' of Maine (-ca1035)
1.1a.2 Ralph 'the Timid' of Mantes
----------------------------------------
Death: 21 Dec 1057[1]
Occ: Earl of Hereford
went to England with Edward the Confessor, 1041
received large grants in Hereford and Gloucestershire
built castle of Ewyas Harold
created Earl of Hereford
supported King Edward against Godwin, 1051 [1].
Defeated by Earl Aelfgar at Hereford, 1055[3]
Children: Harold
1.1a.2.1 Harold de Ewyas
----------------------------------------
Occ: lord of Ewyas Harold[3]
of Ewyas Harold, co. Hereford
ref. CP Vol XII, pt 2, p. 18n[3]
founder of priory at Ewyas, 1100[4]
Children:
Robert fitzHarold (->1166)
Roger
1.1a.2.1.1 Robert fitzHarold de Ewyas
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1166[3],[5]
Occ: lord of Ewyas Harold
of Ewyas Harold, co. Hereford
his brother Roger held a fee of him at Clive, 1166 (DD p. 453)[5]
Children: Robert (-1195)
1.1a.2.1.1.1 Robert de Ewyas
----------------------------------------
Death: 1195[3]
Occ: lord of Ewyas Harold
of Ewyas Harold, co. Hereford
Spouse: Pernel (Petronilla)[3]
Death: aft 28 Oct 1204[3]
Children: Sibyl (-<1236)
1.1a.2.1.1.1.1a Sibyl de Ewyas*[3]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1 Jul 1236[3]
heiress of Ewyas Harold, co. Hereford [3]
she m. lstly Robert de Tregoz,
2ndly Roger de Clifford[3]
Spouse: Robert de Tregoz, of Tregots, Favarches and St. Romphaire
Death: bef 29 Apr 1215[3]
Marr: ? 1198
Children:
Robert (-<1268)
Lucy
John
William (->1274)
Other Spouses Roger de Clifford
1.1a.2.1.1.1.1a.1 Robert de Tregoz
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 24 Sep 1268[3]
Occ: lord of Ewyas Harold[3]
of Ewyas Harold, co. Hereford
inherited the lands of his mother
supporter of Henry III 1226-1241, also against de Montfort Oct 1261 [3]
Spouse: Juliana de Cantelou[3]
Death: aft 6 Aug 1285
Father: William de Cantelou (?1185-1250)
Mother: Millicent de Gournay (-1260)
Marr: bef 1 Aug 1245[3]
Children: John (-1300)
1.1a.2.1.1.1.1a.2 Lucy de Tregoz[3],[6]
----------------------------------------
Spouse: John le Strange of Knockin, co. Salop.
Death: bef 26 Mar 1269[3]
Father: John le Strange (-<1233)
Mother: Amice
Children:
John (-ca1275)
Robert (-ca1276)
Hawise
Hamon (-ca1275)
Roger (-1311)
1.1a.2.1.1.1.1a.3 John de Tregoz[3]
----------------------------------------
1.1a.2.1.1.1.1a.4 William de Tregoz
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1274[3]
Occ: Rector of the church of St. Keyne [Kenchurch]
1.1a.2.1.1.1.1b Sibyl de Ewyas* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Roger de Clifford, of Clifford Castle, co. Hereford, 2nd husband
Death: 1231
Father: Walter de Clifford (->1216)
Mother: Agnes de Cundy
Marr: bef 13 Feb 1216[3]
Children: Roger (-1285)
Other Spouses Robert de Tregoz, 1st husband
1.1a.2.1.1.1.1b.1 Roger de Clifford
----------------------------------------
Death: 1285
baron of Clifford, co. Hereford,
Justice of the Forest south of Trent, 1265 [3]
Spouse: Matilda[8]
Marr: bef 1243[7]
Children: Roger (-1282)
1.1a.2.1.2 Roger de Ewyas
----------------------------------------
1.1b Goda of England* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Eustace II, count of Boulogne, 2nd husband
Death: 1093
Father: Eustace I of Boulogne (-1047)
Mother: Matilda of Louvain
Other Spouses Dreux of Mantes, 1st husband
1.2 Alfred of England
----------------------------------------
Death: 1036, Ely (murdered by Harold Harefoot's men)[1]
1.3 Edward of England
----------------------------------------
Death: 5 Jan 1065, d.s.p.[1]
Occ: King of England 1042-1066
'Edward the Confessor'
Spouse: Edith Godwinsdotter
Father: Godwin, earl of Wessex
Mother: Gytha Thorgilsdotter
1. "William the Conqueror," David C. Douglas, Univ of California Press,
1964 (1st of English Monarchs series).
2. "Edward the Confessor," Frank Barlow, University of California Press,
1970, [English Monarchs Series], cites King Harald's Saga, cap. 45-50,
re: the career of Jarl Haakon Ivarsson.
3. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the
United Kingdom.
4. Adrian Channing, "Sudely," Oct 22, 1999, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
5. "Domesday Descendants," K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, full title: Domesday Descendants: A
Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166:
Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
6. Alan B. Wilson, "Tregoz Line," Apr 29, 1998, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
7. Douglas Richardson, " Further evidence re. Maud, lst wife of Roger de
Clifford," March 22, 2002, cites
David J.H. Clifford, "The Mapledurham Connection", The Genealogists'
Magazine, Sept 1990 (vol 23, no. 7), also Curia Regis Rolls, vol. 18
(1999), pp. 79, 217.
8. "The Early History of Mapledurham," Alfred Hands Cooke, M.A., Sc.D.,
Oxfordshire Record Society, Oxford: Oxfordshire Record Society, 1925,
*orig. cite by Timothy Powys-Lybbe, t...@powys.org
[t...@southfrm.demon.co.uk], p. 11 cited by T. Powys-Lybbe (re: Hugh V
de Gournay).
Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote in message news:<c05c6ac...@south-frm.demon.co.uk>...
> On 22nd Oct 1999 Adrian Channing very cogently wrote:
>
<<<<<<<<<<<< SNIP of important material >>>>>>>>>>>>
Tim Powys-Lybbe
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote:
Many thanks for this and the previous detailed answer.
It looks as if there is a generation missing somewhere if Ralph,
Harold's father died in 1057 and John, Harold's son, died before 1166
(Domesday Descendants, p. 725).
I have just found that while CP in Vol XII/1, p. 413 makes John the
eldest son of Harold, in Vol XI, Appx D, pp. 109-110, note (l), John is
the 3rd son and Robert is the elder.
Chris Phillips
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
> I have just found that while CP in Vol XII/1, p. 413 makes John the
> eldest son of Harold, in Vol XI, Appx D, pp. 109-110, note (l), John is
> the 3rd son and Robert is the elder.
That's a pretty undeniable contradiction, especially as that footnote
comments that "Dugdale, Baronage, vol. i, pp. 428-29, wrongly makes John de
Sudeley the elder br. of Robert de Ewias" , apparently condemning the
version later given in the Sudeley article.
Chris Phillips
moel...@gmail.com
Maureen