The six husbands of Isabel Meynell

[Sutliff]

In the HOP biography of Sir Hugh Shirley (d. 1403), it states that his
father Thomas (d. 1363) was the fourth of Isabel's six husbands. The
fifth husband was Sir John Woodhill (d. 1367) and her sixth was Sir
Gerard Braybrooke (d. 1403).

Who were the first three husbands of this often married and widowed
lady?

Also does anyone have any documentation for any other person of this
period with more spouses?

Thanks for any help.

Henry Sutliff

[Sutliff]

Nothing like answering your own query. The six husbands of Isabel de Meynell
appear to be:

1) John Peverel (d. 1349)
2) Robert Rigge
3) Sir Richard Bradestone
4) Sir Thomas Shirley (d. 1363)
5) Sir John Woodhill (d. 1367)
6) Sir Gerard Braybrook (d. 1403)

I cannot find out much on the Peverel or Rigge marriages so far, but it
would appear that her first marriage was a child marriage. It seems likely
that she had children by the last three husbands and possibly the third. It
is interesting to note that CP [Bradeston] calls the wife of Sir Robert
Bradeston (d. bet. 1355-1357) as Isabel, possibly de la Pole. Whether Sir
Richard and Sir Robert are related is not yet determined. Her son by Shirley
was Sir Hugh and she had daughters Elizabeth and Eleanor (Visit of Beds). by
Woodhill. Both daughters died s.p. in the winter of 1375-6. HOP gives her a
son by Braybrooke.

Hope this helps someone besides me :)

Henry

"Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:00a101c10321$b4635f60$87c4fc9e@ELNsssbo...

[Louise Staley]

Dear Henry,

This probably belongs more to the Elizabeth Carew thread which I somehow
managed to ignore and now realise it is relevant. Sorry.

Who was the father of John Cobham who married Amicia Bolhay? (The parents of
Elizabeth Cobham who married Hugh Peverel)

BTW, on this John Peverel below, if it was a chilhood marriage and John
never made it to adulthood, could he be the son of the said Elizabeth and
Hugh above?

Louise

"Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:uod07.53$xp1....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[Douglas Richardson]

Hi Hap:

You asked a good question.

Isabel de Meynell (died 1393) married only the last three men on the
list, namely Sir Thomas de Shirley (died 1362), Sir John de Wodhull
(died 1367), and Sir Gerard de Braybrook (died 1403). It was another
Isabel who married the first three men. However, you have the order
of the marriages of the other Isabel wrong. The other Isabel married
first John Peverel, second Robert de Bradeston, and third Robert de
Rigge. Roskell's Members of Parliament confused the two women and
gave all six marriages to one woman.

For evidence that there were two Isabel's each with three marriages,
not one Isabel with six marriages, see William Salt Soc., 13 (1892):
92, 126, 134 which gives abstracts of suits for Isabel, wife of Robert
de Rigge, formerly wife of John Peverel, dated 1375 and 1376. In the
period, 1375-6, the first Isabel was the wife of Sir Gerard de
Braybrook.

For further particulars regarding the two Isabel's, I suggest you
consult my forthcoming book, Magna Carta Ancestry, scheduled for
publication sometime within the next year.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royala...@msn.com

"Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<uod07.53$xp1....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...

[DadG...@aol.com]

In a message dated 7/3/01 12:03:30 AM, ss...@earthlink.net writes:

<< Nothing like answering your own query. The six husbands of Isabel de
Meynell
appear to be:

1) John Peverel (d. 1349)
2) Robert Rigge
3) Sir Richard Bradestone
4) Sir Thomas Shirley (d. 1363)
5) Sir John Woodhill (d. 1367)
6) Sir Gerard Braybrook (d. 1403)

I cannot find out much on the Peverel or Rigge marriages so far, but it
would appear that her first marriage was a child marriage. It seems likely
that she had children by the last three husbands and possibly the third. It
is interesting to note that CP [Bradeston] calls the wife of Sir Robert
Bradeston (d. bet. 1355-1357) as Isabel, possibly de la Pole. Whether Sir
Richard and Sir Robert are related is not yet determined. Her son by Shirley
was Sir Hugh and she had daughters Elizabeth and Eleanor (Visit of Beds). by
Woodhill. Both daughters died s.p. in the winter of 1375-6. HOP gives her a
son by Braybrooke.

Hope this helps someone besides me :)

Henry >>

Henry,

Could you clarify the surname (Meynell) of the much-married Isabel? On 20
Jun 1999, Robert O'Connor identified her as a BASSET as follows:

>Sir GERARD BRAYBROOKE, Kt., M.P., of Colmworth, Beds. & Horsenden, Bucks.,
>Born c. 1332. M 1st before Easter 1350 Margaret, d. & heir of John
>Longueville, M.P., of Orton Longueville, Hunts. (See LONGUEVILLE). M 2nd
>c. May 1369 Isabel (She M 1st Sir Thomas Shirley, M.P., of Lower Ettington,
>Warw. - See SHIRLEY – She Died 25 April 1393), natural d. of Ralph, 2nd
>Baron Basset, of Drayton, Staffs. (See BASSET). He joined the entourage of
>the Black Prince as an esquire, serving both in the Gascon expedition,
>1355-7, which culminated in the Battle of Poitiers, & on a subsequent
>campaign in 1359. Knighted before May 1361. Commissioner for Oyer &
>Terminer for Beds., Feb. 1363 & June 1371. Appointed to various other
>Royal Commissions, 1371 to 1402. Member of Parliament for Beds., 1377 &
>1390. Died 1 Feb. 1402/3. He had issue by his 1st wife:

From the dates and marriages to Shirley and Braybooke, this would appear to
be the same Isabel of your inquiry.

John Stuart
DadG...@aol.com

[Ed Mann]

Louise Staley wrote:
>
> Dear Henry,
>
> This probably belongs more to the Elizabeth Carew thread which I somehow
> managed to ignore and now realise it is relevant. Sorry.
>
> Who was the father of John Cobham who married Amicia Bolhay? (The parents of
> Elizabeth Cobham who married Hugh Peverel)

I show:

Selected Descendants of Henry de Cobbeham

1 Henry de Cobbeham ref #: BxP:125
2 John de Cobbeham ref #: BxP:125
3 John de Cobbeham ref #: BxP:125
+Joan de Septvaus ref #: BxP:125
4 John de Cobham ref #: (Ä246G-32)
+Amicia de Bolhay ref #: (Ä246G-32)

--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.

Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@earthlink.net

References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
AACPW = Roberts & Reitwiesner, _American Ancestors and Cousins of
the Princess of Wales_, [page].
AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
[Pres. # : page].
BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
NK1 = Roberts, _Notable_Kin_Volume_One_, [page].
NK2 = Roberts, _Notable_Kin_Volume_Two_, [page].
Π= Hardy, Colonial_Families_of_the_Southern_States_of_America, [pg].
PA = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, 2d ed. [page:para].
S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat lector.
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat lector.
WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page] Caveat lector.

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

In message <5cf47a19.01070...@posting.google.com>
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:

<snip>

>
> For further particulars regarding the two Isabel's, I suggest you
> consult my forthcoming book, Magna Carta Ancestry, scheduled for
> publication sometime within the next year.
>

I do hope this dating is better than computer marketing people where
such a forcast would definitley mean December 31st 2002. :-)

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org

[p.sutton]

I am interested in the Isabella de Pilkington who was the first wife of Sir
Thomas Lathom and the Margaret de Pilkington who married Sir John Arderne of
Elford, co. Staffs. and who was the mother of Matilda Arderne (Born 1396).
Matilda Arderne married Thomas Stanley grandson of Isabella Lathom
(Pilkington).

The pedigree written by John Pilkington ("The Genealogy of the Pilkingtons
of Lancashire and the Chief Branches from 1066 to 1600" by John Pilkington
(3rd Edition)) shows Isabella and Margaret as sisters; being children of Sir
Roger de Pilkington and his wife Alicia de Bury.

However, I think there must be some confusion - Isabella looks ok from a
date point of view but Margaret cannot be right. The children of Sir Roger
& Alicia de Bury appear to have been born in the 1320/30s and Sir Roger died
in 1348. If their daughter Margaret was the one who married Sir John
Arderne she would have been beyond child bearing age in 1396 and in any case
the Margaret Pilkington who actually married Sir John Arderne did not die
until 1423 and she would have been her husband's 1st cousin once removed,
with her being the elder. Very unlikely.

Therefore I think that this must be the wrong Margaret and the one who
actually married Sir John Arderne must be from a later generation. Ormerod
(History of Cheshire) shows a pedigree of the Ardernes of Elford but just
says that she was Margaret and she was the daughter of Sir Roger de
Pilkington. Her 2nd husband was Sir Robert Babthorp. Madam in his book
"The Gresleys of Drakelowe" shows a pedigree of Stanley and Arderne but just
shows Sir John Arderne as being married to a Margaret Pilkington.

I would be grateful if someone could provide her parentage?

Peter Sutton

[Sutliff]

----- Original Message -----
From: "p.sutton" <p.su...@ntlworld.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 7:56 AM
Subject: Pilkington / Arderne / Lathom

> I am interested in the Isabella de Pilkington who was the first wife
of Sir
> Thomas Lathom and the Margaret de Pilkington who married Sir John
Arderne of
> Elford, co. Staffs. and who was the mother of Matilda Arderne (Born
1396).
> Matilda Arderne married Thomas Stanley grandson of Isabella Lathom
> (Pilkington).
>

<snip>

Peter,

You have me confused me and I am wondering if you could present it so
this makes more sense. Why I ask is I am wondering if you have a two
Isabels mixed up. Thomas Lathom (d. bef. 5 Nov. 1383), was son of Sir
Thomas Lathom (d. bef 20 Mar 1381/82) and Joan Venables of Kinderton.
Thomas Jr. was indeed married to an Isabel Pilkington who married (2)
John Dalton. However, the Isabel Lathom who was married to Sir John
Stanley (d. 6 Jan 1413/14) was sister of Thomas Jr. As the previous
two generations of Lathom wives were from the Knowsley and Ferrers
families, I am wondering if you have gotten the sisters-in-law mixed?
Or am I wrong?

Thanks,

Henry Sutliff

[Sutliff]

I held off answering this as I thought Robert might respond to you,
but as he and his wife Tracy have guests from Germany at present,
perhaps I can update his file for you. It now shows:

Sir GERARD BRAYBROOKE, Kt., M.P., of Colmworth, Beds. & Horsenden,
Bucks., Born c. 1332. M 1st before Easter 1350 Margaret, d. & heir
of John Longueville, M.P., of Orton Longueville, Hunts. (See
LONGUEVILLE). M 2nd c. May 1369 Isabel (She M 1st Sir Thomas Shirley,
M.P., of Lower Ettington, Warw. - See SHIRLEY – She Died 25 April

1393), d. of Sir Hugh Meynell, Kt., of Langley Meynell, Derbys. &
Newton Regis & Hintes, Warw. (See MEYNELL). He joined the entourage

of the Black Prince as an esquire, serving both in the Gascon
expedition, 1355-7, which culminated in the Battle of Poitiers, & on a
subsequent campaign in 1359. Knighted before May 1361. Commissioner
for Oyer & Terminer for Beds., Feb. 1363 & June 1371. Appointed to
various other Royal Commissions, 1371 to 1402. Member of Parliament
for Beds., 1377 & 1390. Died 1 Feb. 1402/3. He had issue by his 1st
wife:

Robert did a lot of research on this and presented a time line and
other evidence which pretty convincingly shows that Isabel must be
daughter of Hugh Meynill rather than bastard daughter of Basset. If I
recall correctly this would be found in the archives. Try 1999 or
1998. I am sure if and when he can, Robert will comment.

Best regards,

Henry

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear John ~

Thank you for your good post.

The Isabel you asked about who married successively Shirley, Wodhull,
and Braybrook is usually identified in print as a sister of Ralph
Basset, last Lord Basset of Drayton Basset, co. Stafford. This
identification is made on the basis that Ralph Basset referred to
Isabel's son, Hugh Shirley, as his "nephew" in his will.

Ralph Basset was clearly related to Hugh Shirley through Hugh's
mother, Isabel, as in a settlement of property made some years prior
to his death, Ralph named Isabel's sons by different marriages, namely
Hugh Shirley and Ralph Braybrook, as successive remainders to his
lands. Including Isabel's children by different marriages in the
settlement indicates that her son's Hugh Shirley's kinship to Ralph
Basset was through Isabel, rather than her husband, Sir Thomas de
Shirley.

As for possible kinships, it is a certain fact that Ralph Basset had
no near legitimate Basset kinfolk who survived him. At the time of
Ralph's parents' marriage, there was a manor settled on them and their
issue by his mother's family. Following the marriage, the manor was
held successively by Ralph's parents, then Ralph's mother and
step-father, Sir Hugh de Meynell, and then by Ralph himself. At
Ralph's death, the property reverted to his mother's relations,
proving Ralph had no legitimate surviving siblings or issue.

As for Ralph's mother, Alice de Audley, she is known to have married
(2nd) Sir Hugh de Meynell, by whom she had several sons named in a
Warwickshire fine. Alice was not, however, the mother of Sir Hugh's
eldest son and heir, Richard Meynell, as Richard was born when Alice
de Audley was still married to her Basset husband.

That Isabel de Shirley was Alice de Audley's daughter by her Meynell
marriage is proven by a later dispensation for marriage between one of
Isabel's Shirley descendants and one of her half-brother, Richard
Meynell's descendants. If you work out the relationship stated in
the dispensation, it agrees with Isabel having been a sister or
half-sister of Richard Meynell. In fact, this is no other apparent
relationship between the ancestry of the two parties, except through
the Meynell family. Furthermore, it may be noted that Isabel named a
son, Hugh, doubtless in honor of her father, Sir Hugh de Meynell.

Given the various facts stated above, it is evident that Isabel, wife
successively of Shirley, Wodhull, and Braybrook, was the daughter of
Sir Hugh de Meynell, by Alice de Audley, and thus was a legitimate
half-sister of Ralph Basset, last Lord Basset of Drayton Basset.

For further particulars on this matter, please see the forthcoming
book, Magna Carta Ancestry, where Isabel's identity and parentage will
be discussed at length and all documentation provided.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royala...@msn.com

DadG...@aol.com wrote in message news:<14.1672407...@aol.com>...

[p.sutton]

Henry

Yes I am confused also.

Starting off with Lathom of Lathom, the only source I have at present is
Miscellanea Palatina by George Ormerod. He shows the following:

Sir Thomas de Lathom of Lathom, kt.(d. 1382) was son of Thomas de Lathom
(died. 1370) and his wife Eleanor daughter of Sir John de Ferrers.

Sir Thomas de Lathom (d. 1382) was married twice 1st to Isabella daughter of
Roger de Pilkington by whom he had Thomas de Lathom (died 5 Nov 1383) and
Isabella who married Sir John Stanley, KG. He later married Jane Venables.

Sir Thomas was imbecile for three months before his death, on which event
his widow Jane, then pregnant sent his body for burial at Burscough Priory,
without priest or other attendance, and married her previous lover Roger
Fazackerley.

Thomas de Lathom, the son died 5 Nov 1383 leaving a wife Isabella pregnant
with a daughter Elena. This wife Isabella was according to Ormerod "the
daughter of a second Roger de Pilkington". Now this Isabella de Pilkington
had a daughter aged 13 months on 21 March 1385 and therefore could not have
been a daughter of Sir Roger Pilkington and Alicia de Bury.

Now whether this makes sense or not that is what Ormerod says.

The other source I have (Pilkington, John – The history of the Pilkington
family of Lancashire and its branches from 1066 to 1600 compiled from
ancient deeds, charters, pipe rolls .... etc. 3rd ed. Liverpool C. Tinling &
Co. 1912) says Isabella daughter of Sir Roger de Pilkington and Alicia de
Bury was "first wife of Sir Thomas de Lathom who died at Knowsley 6 Ric. II
(1382). Their daughter Isabel became wife of Sir John de Stanley from whom
descend the present Earls of Derby."

He also says that another daughter (dau. of Sir Roger Pilkington and Alicia
de Bury) "Margaret who married Sir John de Arderne - Their daughter Matilda
became the wife of Thomas de Stanley son of Sir John de Stanley of Lathom"
(But the big problem with this is Matilda de Arderne was born in 1396 and
this Margaret de Pilkington was born in the 1320/30s.

However, thats what John Pilkington says.

So maybe to simplify things can anyone identify from any other sources the
following wives and their parents:

1. The first wife of Sir Thomas de Lathom of Lathom (d. 1382)?
2. The wife of his son Thomas de Lathom (d. 5 Nov. 1383)and mother of his
child Elena?
3. The wife of Sir John Arderne and mother of Matilda de Arderne who married
Thomas Stanley ?

Thanks

Peter Sutton

[Sutliff]

I am enjoying this very much and appreciate your detailed response. My
meager sources give some additional data which may be thrown into the
pot for consideration:

1) Isabel Lathom, eventual heiress of her father Thomas (d. 1382) was
first married (1381) to Sir Geoffrey Worsley of Worsley near Eccles in
Lancashire. This marriage was declared invalid when it was determined
that Worsley's first wife's first husband (how's that for confusing
jargon?) was still living in 1380 and the first wife was alive and
living in a convent. _The House of Stanley_ , p. 114 provides Isabel
with a daughter Elizabeth from this "marriage." If correct, this
states a Papal commission was convened to address this dilemma and the
first marriage was declared unlawful. I note that Vernon James
Watney's Wallop Family pedigree of Worsley shows that Alice de Worsley
(d. Oct 1427), daughter of Sir Geoffrey and unnamed mother married
circa 1372 Sir John Massey of Tatton (d. 22 Jul 1403)

2) Allegedly the will of Thomas Lathom (d. 1382) mentioned three sons:
Thomas, Edward and Robert and three daughters: Isabel, Margaret and
Katherine. As Isabel was eventual heiress, it is probably safe to
assume that Edward, Robert, Margaret and Katherine were dead before
1391 when Ellen/Elena (daughter of Thomas who died 1383) died.

3) If I may, might I throw another Isabel Lathom into the stew? Sir
John Savile of Newstead, Yorks. (Source HSP Yorks, p. 272) is married
to an Isabel Lathom, daughter of Robert. Their grandson was Sir John
Savile (c. 1325-c. 1399), M. P. of Golcar and Shelley, Yorks. She
would appear a much, much earlier Isabel if part of the same family.

4) Wallop, unsourced, make Isabel daughter of Thomas Lathom and Joan
de Venables. However Watney does cite Papal Dispensation 24 December
1398 granted by Pope Boniface IX.

5) CP IV:205 [Derby] only adds to the confusion making Isabel and
Thomas (d. 1383) as children of an unnamed wife of Thomas (d. 1382).
However, this page does cite that Isabel de Pilkington, daughter of
Roger, was wife of Thomas (d. 1383) and mother of Ellen (1384-d. bef
1391).

Will keep searching for more. Hope this helps in some way.

Best regards,

Hap

> The other source I have (Pilkington, John - The history of the

[Kay Allen AG]

According to VCH Lancs. vol. 3:251, note 9, there was no double Lathom-Pilkington
marriage. Thomas d. 1382 only married Jane Venables.

Kay Allen AG

"p.sutton" wrote:

> Henry
>
> Yes I am confused also.
>
> Starting off with Lathom of Lathom, the only source I have at present is
> Miscellanea Palatina by George Ormerod. He shows the following:
>
> Sir Thomas de Lathom of Lathom, kt.(d. 1382) was son of Thomas de Lathom
> (died. 1370) and his wife Eleanor daughter of Sir John de Ferrers.
>
> Sir Thomas de Lathom (d. 1382) was married twice 1st to Isabella daughter of
> Roger de Pilkington by whom he had Thomas de Lathom (died 5 Nov 1383) and
> Isabella who married Sir John Stanley, KG. He later married Jane Venables.
>
> Sir Thomas was imbecile for three months before his death, on which event
> his widow Jane, then pregnant sent his body for burial at Burscough Priory,
> without priest or other attendance, and married her previous lover Roger
> Fazackerley.
>
> Thomas de Lathom, the son died 5 Nov 1383 leaving a wife Isabella pregnant
> with a daughter Elena. This wife Isabella was according to Ormerod "the
> daughter of a second Roger de Pilkington". Now this Isabella de Pilkington
> had a daughter aged 13 months on 21 March 1385 and therefore could not have
> been a daughter of Sir Roger Pilkington and Alicia de Bury.
>
> Now whether this makes sense or not that is what Ormerod says.
>

> The other source I have (Pilkington, John ? The history of the Pilkington

[Leo van de Pas]

Dear Douglas,
This Isabel de Meynell and her parents are a cornerstone in many people's
ancestry. For instance, they are ancestors of
H.M. the Queen Mother, Lady Diana Spencer, Sarah Ferguson, the Aga Khan,
Lord Bertrand Russell, Lady Antonia Fraser as well as today's Dukes of
Abercorn, Beaufort, Bedford, Buccleuch, Devonshire, Gloucester, Grafton,
Hamilton, Leinster, Marlborough, Norfolk, Northumberland, Richmond, and
Westminster; and, of course, many other interesting personages..

Many thanks for your message. It made me look a bit further around and what
I found fascinating was that the Complete Peerage Volume II pages 3 and 4
there is a huge footnote.

This does go into the heirs of Ralph Basset and offers the several solutions
to his link with Isabel (de Meynell), from her being his legitimate full
sister, his father's illegitimate daughter as well as his legitimate uterine
half-sister and even a sister of Ralph's father. Especially as Ralph Basset
calls Isabel's son his "neveu/nephew' I think you have establised the
correct link.

However, I think it is a pity you did not mention just the sources where you
found the appropriate details. I am sure no-one on his list would expect you
to go through great lengths to discuss your find but just what source you
used.
Again many thanks for your message.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

.

[Kay Allen AG]

Which John Wohull is it that she married?

Kay Allen AG

Douglas Richardson wrote:

> DadG...@aol.com wrote in message news:<14.1672407...@aol.com>...

[p.sutton]

Thanks for your comments

Peter Sutton

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kay Allen AG [mailto:all...@pacbell.net]
> Sent: 05 July 2001 00:21
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Pilkington / Arderne / Lathom
>
>

[p.sutton]

Henry

Thanks for the information you have provided.

Do you by chance have any further details of Papal Dispensation 24 December
1398 granted by Pope Boniface IX?

Peter Sutton

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sutliff [mailto:ss...@earthlink.net]
> Sent: 04 July 2001 23:51
> To: p.su...@ntlworld.com; GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Pilkington / Arderne / Lathom
>
>