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OT: Edward I Descent for Mary Clagett, Mrs Howard (1872-1946)
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Brad Verity
Mar 9, 2015, 12:16:29 PM3/9/15
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On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 4:31:27 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> An interesting side note on this descent:
> The eldest son of Sir Henry Howard and Cecilia Riggs was George Howard (1869-1919) who married Mary Allen Clagett (1872-1946). This last surname will be familiar to longtime participants in this group, as Mary Allen Clagett was a great-aunt of the late Brice McAdoo Clagett, a valued contributor here before his death in 2008.
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 5:55:51 PM UTC-7, Steve Riggan via wrote:
> I corresponded with the Clagetts several times in years past. Brice was a very knowledgeable person when it came to our family history and I miss his contributions.
As John and Steve have pointed out above, the ancestry of the next Howard spouse was particularly poignant for me to work on, as it is shared by Mary's great-nephew, the late attorney and genealogist Brice M. Clagett, who was a SocGenMed participant with whom I also corresponded. Brice was an excellent researcher, especially within the medieval period, and I miss him.
George Howard, born 26 November 1869 at Munich, Bavaria, followed in the footsteps of his maternal grandfather, George W. Riggs, and became a banker in Washington, DC. He rose to the position of President of the Dupont National Bank. He came to a tragic end when, apparently not fully recovered from a second bout of influenza, he shot and killed himself in the basement of the bank building on 22 January 1919, to the shock of the bank's board of directors and DC society, among whom he was much admired.
George Howard had permanently moved to DC in 1898, and married there on 5 November 1902, the widowed Mary Allen Clagett (born 7 January 1872 at Washington, DC), who had married 1st, 31 October 1893 at Washington, DC, Clifford Perin of Cincinnati, Ohio (born 1 October 1861 at Cincinnati; died 26 May 1902 at Curtis Bay, Baltimore, Maryland), with whom she'd had one daughter. Mary and George Howard together had one son. After Howard's death, his widow Mary, the sole beneficiary of his will, moved to New York City. She died 8 February 1946 in Manhattan.
Mary was the daughter of businessman William Henry Clagett, merchant and real estate agent, born 11 March 1827 at Washington, DC; died there 22 October 1892, buried Rock Creek Cemetery, Petworth, Washington, DC. He married 1 September 1857, Mary Adele Clare (born 14 June 1836 at Tuscaloosa, Alabama; died 12 December 1917 at Washington, DC, buried Rock Creek Cemetery).
Through her father, Mary Clagett has a single, verifiable, 22-generation line of descent from Edward I, as follows. Leo already has it in his database.
Edward I had a dau:
1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307) m. 1) Gilbert de Clare, 6th Earl of Gloucester (1243-1295), and had
2) Lady Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337) m. 1) Hugh, 2nd Lord Despenser (c.1289-1326), and had
3) Isabel Despenser (c.1313-aft.1356) m. (div.) Richard Fitzalan, 3rd Earl of Arundel (c.1314-1376), and had
4) Sir Edmund Arundel of Bignor (1327-c.1381) m. Lady Sybil Montagu (c.1327-aft.1371), and had
5) Philippa Arundel (c.1352-1399) m. 1) Sir Richard Cergeaux of Colquite (c.1340-1393), and had
6) Philippa Cergeaux (1381-1420) m. 1) Sir Robert Pashley of Pashley (c.1370-1400), and had
7) Anne Pashley (d. 1444) m. 2) Edward Tyrell of Downham (d. 1442), and had
8) Philippa Tyrell (b. c.1435) m. Thomas Cornwallis of Brome Hall (c.1421-1484), and had
9) William Cornwallis of Brome Hall (c.1470-1519) m. Elizabeth Stanford (d. 1537), and had
10) Afra Cornwallis m. Sir Anthony Aucher of Otterden (c.1500-1558), and had
11) Edward Aucher of Bishopsbourne (c.1539-1568) m. Mabel Wroth (c.1542-1597), and had
12) Elizabeth Aucher (c.1564-1627) m. Sir William Lovelace of Lovelace Place (1561-1629), and had
13) Sir William Lovelace of Lovelace Place (1584-1627) m. Anne Barne (c.1590-1633), and had
14) Anne Lovelace (c.1612-1652) m. Rev. John Gorsuch of Walkern (d. 1648), and had
15) Richard Gorsuch of Talbot County, Maryland (1637-1677) m. Elizabeth [?Roe], and had
16) Mary Gorsuch (b. c.1662) m. Richard Keene of St Richard's Manor, Maryland (1654-1699), and had
17) Mary Keene (1681-1759) m. Capt. Thomas Clagett of Weston (plantation farm in Prince George County, Maryland) (c.1678-1733), and had
18) John Clagett of Clagett's Purchase (plantation farm in Montgomery County, Maryland) (1713-1790) m. Sarah Magruder (b. 1724), and had
19) Walter Clagett of Clagett's Purchase (1763-1803) m. Martha Williams (1759-1830), and had
20) Darius Clagett of Washington, DC (dry goods merchant) (c.1790-1860) m. Providence Dorsey Brice (1801-1861)*, and had
21) William Henry Clagett of Washington, DC (1827-1892) m. (Mary) Adele Clare (1836-1917), and had
22) Mary Allen Clagett (1872-1946) m. 2) George Howard, president of Dupont National Bank (1869-1919)
*There may be Edward I ancestry for Providence Brice thru her ancestor Dr Charles Carroll of Annapolis. I'll lay out the evidence in a follow-up post.
Cheers, -----Brad
> An interesting side note on this descent:
> The eldest son of Sir Henry Howard and Cecilia Riggs was George Howard (1869-1919) who married Mary Allen Clagett (1872-1946). This last surname will be familiar to longtime participants in this group, as Mary Allen Clagett was a great-aunt of the late Brice McAdoo Clagett, a valued contributor here before his death in 2008.
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 5:55:51 PM UTC-7, Steve Riggan via wrote:
> I corresponded with the Clagetts several times in years past. Brice was a very knowledgeable person when it came to our family history and I miss his contributions.
As John and Steve have pointed out above, the ancestry of the next Howard spouse was particularly poignant for me to work on, as it is shared by Mary's great-nephew, the late attorney and genealogist Brice M. Clagett, who was a SocGenMed participant with whom I also corresponded. Brice was an excellent researcher, especially within the medieval period, and I miss him.
George Howard, born 26 November 1869 at Munich, Bavaria, followed in the footsteps of his maternal grandfather, George W. Riggs, and became a banker in Washington, DC. He rose to the position of President of the Dupont National Bank. He came to a tragic end when, apparently not fully recovered from a second bout of influenza, he shot and killed himself in the basement of the bank building on 22 January 1919, to the shock of the bank's board of directors and DC society, among whom he was much admired.
George Howard had permanently moved to DC in 1898, and married there on 5 November 1902, the widowed Mary Allen Clagett (born 7 January 1872 at Washington, DC), who had married 1st, 31 October 1893 at Washington, DC, Clifford Perin of Cincinnati, Ohio (born 1 October 1861 at Cincinnati; died 26 May 1902 at Curtis Bay, Baltimore, Maryland), with whom she'd had one daughter. Mary and George Howard together had one son. After Howard's death, his widow Mary, the sole beneficiary of his will, moved to New York City. She died 8 February 1946 in Manhattan.
Mary was the daughter of businessman William Henry Clagett, merchant and real estate agent, born 11 March 1827 at Washington, DC; died there 22 October 1892, buried Rock Creek Cemetery, Petworth, Washington, DC. He married 1 September 1857, Mary Adele Clare (born 14 June 1836 at Tuscaloosa, Alabama; died 12 December 1917 at Washington, DC, buried Rock Creek Cemetery).
Through her father, Mary Clagett has a single, verifiable, 22-generation line of descent from Edward I, as follows. Leo already has it in his database.
Edward I had a dau:
1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307) m. 1) Gilbert de Clare, 6th Earl of Gloucester (1243-1295), and had
2) Lady Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337) m. 1) Hugh, 2nd Lord Despenser (c.1289-1326), and had
3) Isabel Despenser (c.1313-aft.1356) m. (div.) Richard Fitzalan, 3rd Earl of Arundel (c.1314-1376), and had
4) Sir Edmund Arundel of Bignor (1327-c.1381) m. Lady Sybil Montagu (c.1327-aft.1371), and had
5) Philippa Arundel (c.1352-1399) m. 1) Sir Richard Cergeaux of Colquite (c.1340-1393), and had
6) Philippa Cergeaux (1381-1420) m. 1) Sir Robert Pashley of Pashley (c.1370-1400), and had
7) Anne Pashley (d. 1444) m. 2) Edward Tyrell of Downham (d. 1442), and had
8) Philippa Tyrell (b. c.1435) m. Thomas Cornwallis of Brome Hall (c.1421-1484), and had
9) William Cornwallis of Brome Hall (c.1470-1519) m. Elizabeth Stanford (d. 1537), and had
10) Afra Cornwallis m. Sir Anthony Aucher of Otterden (c.1500-1558), and had
11) Edward Aucher of Bishopsbourne (c.1539-1568) m. Mabel Wroth (c.1542-1597), and had
12) Elizabeth Aucher (c.1564-1627) m. Sir William Lovelace of Lovelace Place (1561-1629), and had
13) Sir William Lovelace of Lovelace Place (1584-1627) m. Anne Barne (c.1590-1633), and had
14) Anne Lovelace (c.1612-1652) m. Rev. John Gorsuch of Walkern (d. 1648), and had
15) Richard Gorsuch of Talbot County, Maryland (1637-1677) m. Elizabeth [?Roe], and had
16) Mary Gorsuch (b. c.1662) m. Richard Keene of St Richard's Manor, Maryland (1654-1699), and had
17) Mary Keene (1681-1759) m. Capt. Thomas Clagett of Weston (plantation farm in Prince George County, Maryland) (c.1678-1733), and had
18) John Clagett of Clagett's Purchase (plantation farm in Montgomery County, Maryland) (1713-1790) m. Sarah Magruder (b. 1724), and had
19) Walter Clagett of Clagett's Purchase (1763-1803) m. Martha Williams (1759-1830), and had
20) Darius Clagett of Washington, DC (dry goods merchant) (c.1790-1860) m. Providence Dorsey Brice (1801-1861)*, and had
21) William Henry Clagett of Washington, DC (1827-1892) m. (Mary) Adele Clare (1836-1917), and had
22) Mary Allen Clagett (1872-1946) m. 2) George Howard, president of Dupont National Bank (1869-1919)
*There may be Edward I ancestry for Providence Brice thru her ancestor Dr Charles Carroll of Annapolis. I'll lay out the evidence in a follow-up post.
Cheers, -----Brad
Brad Verity
Mar 9, 2015, 3:44:26 PM3/9/15
to
On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 9:16:29 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> 20) Darius Clagett of Washington, DC (dry goods merchant) (c.1790-1860) m. Providence Dorsey Brice (1801-1861)*, and had
> 21) William Henry Clagett of Washington, DC (1827-1892) m. (Mary) Adele Clare (1836-1917), and had
> 22) Mary Allen Clagett (1872-1946) m. 2) George Howard, president of Dupont National Bank (1869-1919)
> *There may be Edward I ancestry for Providence Brice thru her ancestor Dr Charles Carroll of Annapolis. I'll lay out the evidence in a follow-up post.
Charles Carroll, born 1691 in Ireland, emigrated to Maryland "in 1715 due to political difficulties. After his arrival in this country he renounced the Roman Catholic faith and became a member of the Church of England. At that time Maryland was a Protestant colony and Roman Catholics were not allowed to hold public office or have public worship services. Dr. Carroll wanted to be able to own land and participate in political activities. He settled in Annapolis where he practiced medicine and engaged in land speculation":
> 20) Darius Clagett of Washington, DC (dry goods merchant) (c.1790-1860) m. Providence Dorsey Brice (1801-1861)*, and had
> 21) William Henry Clagett of Washington, DC (1827-1892) m. (Mary) Adele Clare (1836-1917), and had
> 22) Mary Allen Clagett (1872-1946) m. 2) George Howard, president of Dupont National Bank (1869-1919)
> *There may be Edward I ancestry for Providence Brice thru her ancestor Dr Charles Carroll of Annapolis. I'll lay out the evidence in a follow-up post.
http://mountclare.org/history/index.html
Dr Carroll died 29 September 1755. He married 1722, Dorothy Blake (born 26 November 1702; died 8 July 1734), and had two sons and a daughter.
In the 1876 book 'Old Kent: The Eastern Shore of Maryland', the parents of this Dr Charles Carroll are given, "Charles Carroll, eldest son of the last named Daniel Carroll, m. Clare Dunn, who was the dau. of the great O'Connor Dun (or Don), her mother being Jane Bermingham, dau. of EdwardFitzRichard, the 17th Lord Athenry (vide 'Lodge Peerage', John Carroll of Baugh)":
https://books.google.ca/books?id=u0AUCoIl4IcC&pg=PA143&dq=o%27connor+duinn+married+bermingham&hl=en&sa=X&ei=P-T9VNrPKMXgoATczYLQCw&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=o'connor%20duinn%20married%20bermingham&f=false
This would give Providence Dorsey Brice two lines of descent from Edward I, as so:
Edward I had a dau
A2) Lady Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of Ormond (1305-1338), and had
A3) James Butler, 2nd Earl of Ormond (1331-1382) m. Elizabeth Darcy (1332-1390), and had
A4) Lady Eleanor Butler (c.1350-1392) m. Gerald Fitzgerald, 3rd Earl of Desmond (c.1338-1398), and had a dau A5 & a son B5 (see below)
A5) Lady Joan Fitzgerald m. Maurice Fitzmaurice, 6th Lord of Kerry & Lixnaw (d. 1398), and had
A6) Patrick Fitzmaurice, 7th Lord of Kerry & Lixnaw (d. 1410) m. Lady Katharine MacCarthy, and had
A7) Thomas Fitzmaurice, 8th Lord of Kerry & Lixnaw (by1410-1469) m. Lady Anore Fitzgerald (see B6 below), and had
A8) Mary Fitzmaurice m. Sir Thomas Fitzgerald of Glyn, and had
A9) Eleanor Fitzgerald m. Murrough O'Brien, 1st Earl of Thomond (d. 1551), and had
A10) Lady Honoria O'Brien m. Sir Ruaidhrí [Roger] Gilla Dubh O'Shaughnessy of Gort (d. 1569), and had
A11) Joan O'Shaugnessy (d. 1593) m. Edmond Bermingham, 10th Lord Athenry (1540-1614), and had
A12) Richard Bermingham, 11th Lord Athenry (1570-1645) m. 1) --- Ó Mullally, and had
A13) Edward Bermingham, Heir of Athenry (d. by 1641) m. Mary Burgh of Donamon, and had
A14) Jane Bermingham m. "the great O'Connor Dun (or Don)", and had
A15) Mary Clare Dunn m. Charles Carroll of Clonlisk Castle (d. 1695), and had
A16) Dr Charles Carroll of Annapolis (1691-1755) m. Dorothy Blake (1702-1734), and had
A17) Mary Clare Carroll (1727-1781) m. Nicholas Maccubbin of Anne Arundel County (1710-1784), and had
A18) Mary Clare Maccubbin (1749-1806) m. John Brice III of Baltimore (1738-1820), and had
A19) John Brice IV of Baltimore (1770-1850) m. Sarah Lane (1776-1839), and had
A20) Providence Dorsey Brice (1801-1861) m. Darius Clagett of Washington, DC (c.1790-1860, descended from Edward I)
B5) James Fitzgerald, 6th Earl of Desmond (d. by 1463) m. Mary de Burgh (d. 1435), and had
B6) Lady Anore Fitzgerald (b. c.1430) m. Thomas Fitzmaurice, 8th Lord of Kerry & Lixnaw (see A7 above)
The weak link in the above line is Generation A14. I can't find any online verification of it beyond the 1876 book. Does anyone know which volume of Lodge's Peerage of Ireland covers the Bermingham Lords of Athenry? There were both O'Connor and O'Duinn clans in Ireland, so hopefully Lodge is clearer as to which clan Jane Bermingham married into.
Or if anyone has any other information as to the validity of this line, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Mar 9, 2015, 11:11:02 PM3/9/15
to
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/261747?availability=Family%20History%20Library
With respect to generation A14 in this descent, Lodge (in page 46 of vol. 3) does say that Anne [not Jane] Bermingham, daughter of the parents given in A13, married "O'Conor (Dunn) of Balintober in the county of Roscommon, lineal descendant of O'Conor, the last monarch of Ireland". But BIFR 1976 says (sub O'Conor Don) that this marriage was to Daniel O'Conor of Clonalis. Daniel O'Conor was not himself "the O'Conor Don" (i.e., the head of the family) - although his uncle Calvach was, as was Daniel's son Andrew, who became the O'Conor Don when his great-uncle Calvach's male line became extinct.
BIFR gives no daughter to Daniel O'Conor and Anne Bermingham. More importantly, the surname was certainly O'Conor, not Dunn (or Don). Thus it's unlikely that Clare Dunn, the mother of Dr. Charles Carroll of Annapolis was a daughter of "the great O'Conor Dun [or Don]", despite what's stated in Lodge and in the 1876 book cited in this thread. In fact, GBR in the 2008 edition of RD600 refers to her as "Clare Dunne (or O'Doyne)", not an O'Conor at all - and thus probably of the O'Duinn clan that Brad mentions. It does not indicate any royal descent for her.
The RD600 segment on Dr. Charles Carroll of Annapolis is based primarily on the work of Brice McAdoo Clagget, particularly an article by him in vol. 3 #3 (1991) of the "Journal of the Butler Society". RD600 indicates that the pedigree given there (in RD600) "outlines only a selection of the descents of Dr. Charles Carroll from James Butler, 2nd Earl of Ormonde" - and thence from Edward I of England. The remaining descents are covered in the article mentioned above, which I'm attempting to obtain through interlibrary loan.
Bottom line: there certainly are Edward I descents for Dr. Charles Carroll, but the descent in this thread needs more support before it can be said to be valid.
Brad Verity
Mar 10, 2015, 11:13:55 AM3/10/15
to
On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 8:11:02 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The family of Bermingham of Athenry is covered in vol. 3 of Archdall's edition of Lodge's Peerage of Ireland (where the surname is spelled "Birmingham"). That volume is available via Google Books and (more conveniently for some) also via the FHL website here:
> https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/261747?availability=Family%20History%20Library
> With respect to generation A14 in this descent, Lodge (in page 46 of vol. 3) does say that Anne [not Jane] Bermingham, daughter of the parents given in A13, married "O'Conor (Dunn) of Balintober in the county of Roscommon, lineal descendant of O'Conor, the last monarch of Ireland".
Thanks, John. Here's the link to the Bermingham section of Lodge Vol. 3, pp. 45-46:
> The family of Bermingham of Athenry is covered in vol. 3 of Archdall's edition of Lodge's Peerage of Ireland (where the surname is spelled "Birmingham"). That volume is available via Google Books and (more conveniently for some) also via the FHL website here:
> https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/261747?availability=Family%20History%20Library
> With respect to generation A14 in this descent, Lodge (in page 46 of vol. 3) does say that Anne [not Jane] Bermingham, daughter of the parents given in A13, married "O'Conor (Dunn) of Balintober in the county of Roscommon, lineal descendant of O'Conor, the last monarch of Ireland".
https://archive.org/stream/peerageofireland03lodg#page/46/mode/2up
> But BIFR 1976 says (sub O'Conor Don) that this marriage was to Daniel O'Conor of Clonalis. Daniel O'Conor was not himself "the O'Conor Don" (i.e., the head of the family) - although his uncle Calvach was, as was Daniel's son Andrew, who became the O'Conor Don when his great-uncle Calvach's male line became extinct.
> BIFR gives no daughter to Daniel O'Conor and Anne Bermingham. More importantly, the surname was certainly O'Conor, not Dunn (or Don). Thus it's unlikely that Clare Dunn, the mother of Dr. Charles Carroll of Annapolis was a daughter of "the great O'Conor Dun [or Don]", despite what's stated in Lodge and in the 1876 book cited in this thread.
> In fact, GBR in the 2008 edition of RD600 refers to her as "Clare Dunne (or O'Doyne)", not an O'Conor at all - and thus probably of the O'Duinn clan that Brad mentions. It does not indicate any royal descent for her.
> The RD600 segment on Dr. Charles Carroll of Annapolis is based primarily on the work of Brice McAdoo Clagget, particularly an article by him in vol. 3 #3 (1991) of the "Journal of the Butler Society". RD600 indicates that the pedigree given there (in RD600) "outlines only a selection of the descents of Dr. Charles Carroll from James Butler, 2nd Earl of Ormonde" - and thence from Edward I of England. The remaining descents are covered in the article mentioned above, which I'm attempting to obtain through interlibrary loan.
> Bottom line: there certainly are Edward I descents for Dr. Charles Carroll, but the descent in this thread needs more support before it can be said to be valid.
1) Piers Butler, 8th Earl of Ormonde (1467-1539, descended from Edward I) m. Lady Margaret Fitzgerald (c.1476-1542, descended from Edward I), and had
2) Lady Ellen Butler (c.1517-1597) m. Donough O'Brien, 2nd Earl of Thomond (c.1515-1553), and had
3) Lady Margaret O'Brien m. Richard Burgh, 2nd Earl of Clanricarde (c.1530-1582, descended from Edward I), and had
4) Lady Mary Burgh m. John Moore, and had
5) Jane Moore m. Sir Lucas Dillon, and had
6) Mary Dillon m. John O'Carroll (descended from Edward I), and had
7) Charles O'Carroll m. Clare Dunne (O'Doyne), and had
8) Dr. Charles Carroll of Annapolis
So far I only have the first 3 generations above in my database, but I already run into a problem with generation #3. I have Lady Margaret O'Brien, wife of the 2nd Earl of Clanricarde, as daughter of the 1st Earl of Thomond & Eleanor Fitzgerald, not of the 2nd Earl of Thomond & Lady Ellen Butler. For the latter couple, I have their daughter Lady Margaret O'Brien as wife of Dermod O'Brien, 2nd Baron Inchiquin (c.1530-1557). Have I confused this? What do others have for these generations?
Thank you for ordering Brice Clagett's article, John! I very much look forward to seeing these lines laid out, and the sources that Brice used for them.
Cheers, ------Brad
Richard Carruthers via
Mar 10, 2015, 11:37:49 AM3/10/15
to Brad Verity, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Actually the proper style is O'Conor Don without the definite article.
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jhigg...@yahoo.com
Mar 10, 2015, 4:54:05 PM3/10/15
to
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2013-09/1378067184
From my first response:
"With respect to the 2nd Earl of Clanricarde, both CP and the recent editions of BP (sub Sligo) are explicit in saying that he married in succession two women named Margaret O'Brien, daughters respectively of the 1st and 2nd Earls of Thomond. CP says the 2nd Margaret O'Brien died in 1568 and had 2 sons and 1 daughter (unnamed). In a post of 7 Jan 2002 Brice Clagett identified the daughter as Mary Burke who married Sir John Moore of Brees.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2002-01/1010442524
"CP sub Clanricarde says that the 2nd Margaret O'Brien (married 24 Nov 1553) was the daughter of Donough O'Brien, 2nd Earl of Thomond, and Helen Butler. But, as you note, CP sub Inchiquin says that Dermod O'Brien, 2nd Baron Inchiquin (d. 1557), married before 1550 Margaret O'Brien, daughter of Donough O'Brien, Earl of Thomond, and Helen Butler. Since these two marriages overlap, something is clearly wrong here. Either the dates are wrong, or there were two daughters named Margaret(unlikely but not impossible), or one of the Margarets should be assigned to different parents. I don't know how to resolve this conundrum. When I get a chance I'll look at the account of the O'Briens in Lodge's Peerage to see if it sheds any light on the situation."
From my second response:
"A small note on Dermond, 2nd Baron Inchiquin, above - which may resolve the question of the two marriages of his wife Margaret O'Brien:
"As mentioned above CP sub Inchiquin says that the 2nd Baron Inchiquin died on 31 Jan (or 1 May) 1557. Although CP doesn't cite a source for this, it is likely that it came from Archdall's edition of Lodge's Peerage of Ireland, which has the same dual death date and is cited in other segments of the CP Inchiquin article.
"However, both the 106th and 107th editions of BP (and possibly earlier ones as well) say that the 2nd Baron Inchiquin died 31 Jan 1552 - not 1557. It seems quite plausible that at some point in the past 1552 (perhaps 1551/2) was mis-transcribed as 1557 and not caught until much later. There are enough other errors in the Lodge/Archdall accounts of De Burgh of Clanricarde and O'Brien of Thomond and Inchiquin that I'm inclined to follow the more recent version of the O'Briens in the current editions of BP, on the assumption that later research has corrected the problems in Lodge which were apparently carried forward into CP. This resolves the problem of the supposedly overlapping marriages of Margaret O'Brien, wife 1st of the 2nd Baron Inchiquin and then (as his 2nd wife) the 2nd Earl of Clanricarde."
[end quote]
This seems to resolve the apparent conflict in an appropriate way.
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Mar 10, 2015, 5:13:37 PM3/10/15
to
On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 12:44:26 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2002-01/1010442524
Brad Verity
Mar 16, 2015, 2:01:04 PM3/16/15
to
On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 1:54:05 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> "As mentioned above CP sub Inchiquin says that the 2nd Baron Inchiquin died on 31 Jan (or 1 May) 1557. Although CP doesn't cite a source for this, it is likely that it came from Archdall's edition of Lodge's Peerage of Ireland, which has the same dual death date and is cited in other segments of the CP Inchiquin article.
> "However, both the 106th and 107th editions of BP (and possibly earlier ones as well) say that the 2nd Baron Inchiquin died 31 Jan 1552 - not 1557. It seems quite plausible that at some point in the past 1552 (perhaps 1551/2) was mis-transcribed as 1557 and not caught until much later. There are enough other errors in the Lodge/Archdall accounts of De Burgh of Clanricarde and O'Brien of Thomond and Inchiquin that I'm inclined to follow the more recent version of the O'Briens in the current editions of BP, on the assumption that later research has corrected the problems in Lodge which were apparently carried forward into CP. This resolves the problem of the supposedly overlapping marriages of Margaret O'Brien, wife 1st of the 2nd Baron Inchiquin and then (as his 2nd wife) the 2nd Earl of Clanricarde."
> "As mentioned above CP sub Inchiquin says that the 2nd Baron Inchiquin died on 31 Jan (or 1 May) 1557. Although CP doesn't cite a source for this, it is likely that it came from Archdall's edition of Lodge's Peerage of Ireland, which has the same dual death date and is cited in other segments of the CP Inchiquin article.
> "However, both the 106th and 107th editions of BP (and possibly earlier ones as well) say that the 2nd Baron Inchiquin died 31 Jan 1552 - not 1557. It seems quite plausible that at some point in the past 1552 (perhaps 1551/2) was mis-transcribed as 1557 and not caught until much later. There are enough other errors in the Lodge/Archdall accounts of De Burgh of Clanricarde and O'Brien of Thomond and Inchiquin that I'm inclined to follow the more recent version of the O'Briens in the current editions of BP, on the assumption that later research has corrected the problems in Lodge which were apparently carried forward into CP. This resolves the problem of the supposedly overlapping marriages of Margaret O'Brien, wife 1st of the 2nd Baron Inchiquin and then (as his 2nd wife) the 2nd Earl of Clanricarde."
> This seems to resolve the apparent conflict in an appropriate way.
I'd been waiting for a primary document to verify whether the 2nd Baron Inchiquin died in 1552 or 1557, so hadn't adjusted my database to reflect that his wife Lady Margaret O'Brien was also the second wife of the 2nd Earl of Clanricarde. I've gone ahead and given her both husbands now, with a note that primary documentation is still wanting. But primary documentation is wanting for almost every Irish peerage & gentry family, so it's nothing new.
On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 2:13:37 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> This post from 2002 by Brice Clagett appears to solidly refute the claim (in the 1876 book cited above) that Clare Dunn, mother of Dr. Charles Carroll of Annapolis, was a daughter of "the great O'Connor Dun (or Don)", as in A14 above.
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2002-01/1010442524
I haven't had time yet to enter the lines into my database, but once I do, I'll do a revised post for all the Edward I descents for Mary Clagett, Mrs Howard. Steve Riggan brought my attention to yet another one for her, through the Domvilles.
I hope to have the lines entered in a day or so.
Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad
Brad Verity
Mar 17, 2015, 10:43:05 PM3/17/15
to
On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 11:01:04 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> I haven't had time yet to enter the lines into my database, but once I do, I'll do a revised post for all the Edward I descents for Mary Clagett, Mrs Howard. Steve Riggan brought my attention to yet another one for her, through the Domvilles.
> I hope to have the lines entered in a day or so.
I've now entered Brice Clagett's 2002 ahnentafel for his ancestor Dr Charles Carroll of Annapolis (1691-1755). This brings my total to 18 separate lines of descent from Edward I for Mary Allen Clagett, the wife of George Howard of Washington, DC. They are as follows.
> I haven't had time yet to enter the lines into my database, but once I do, I'll do a revised post for all the Edward I descents for Mary Clagett, Mrs Howard. Steve Riggan brought my attention to yet another one for her, through the Domvilles.
> I hope to have the lines entered in a day or so.
Edward I married twice, and had 2 daus A1 & D1, and a son B1 (see below)
A1) Princess Joan 'of Acre', by 1st wife (1272-1307) m. 1) Gilbert de Clare, 6th Earl of Gloucester (1243-1295), and had
A2) Lady Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337) m. 1) Hugh, 2nd Lord Despenser (c.1289-1326), and had
A3) Isabel Despenser (c.1313-aft.1356) m. (div.) Richard Fitzalan, 3rd Earl of Arundel (c.1314-1376), and had
A4) Sir Edmund Arundel of Bignor (1327-c.1381) m. Lady Sybil Montagu (c.1327-aft.1371), and had
A5) Philippa Arundel (c.1352-1399) m. 1) Sir Richard Cergeaux of Colquite (c.1340-1393), and had
A6) Philippa Cergeaux (1381-1420) m. 1) Sir Robert Pashley of Pashley (c.1370-1400), and had
A7) Anne Pashley (d. 1444) m. 2) Edward Tyrell of Downham (d. 1442), and had
A8) Philippa Tyrell (b. c.1435) m. Thomas Cornwallis of Brome Hall (c.1421-1484), and had
A9) William Cornwallis of Brome Hall (c.1470-1519) m. Elizabeth Stanford (d. 1537), and had
A10) Afra Cornwallis m. Sir Anthony Aucher of Otterden (c.1500-1558), and had
A11) Edward Aucher of Bishopsbourne (c.1539-1568) m. Mabel Wroth (c.1542-1597), and had
A12) Elizabeth Aucher (c.1564-1627) m. Sir William Lovelace of Lovelace Place (1561-1629), and had
A13) Sir William Lovelace of Lovelace Place (1584-1627) m. Anne Barne (c.1590-1633), and had
A14) Anne Lovelace (c.1612-1652) m. Rev. John Gorsuch of Walkern (d. 1648), and had
A15) Richard Gorsuch of Talbot County, Maryland (1637-1677) m. Elizabeth [?Roe], and had
A16) Mary Gorsuch (b. c.1662) m. Richard Keene of St Richard's Manor, Maryland (1654-1699), and had
A17) Mary Keene (1681-1759) m. Capt. Thomas Clagett of Weston (plantation farm in Prince George County, Maryland) (c.1678-1733), and had
A18) John Clagett of Clagett's Purchase (plantation farm in Montgomery County, Maryland) (1713-1790) m. Sarah Magruder (see B17 below), and had
A19) Walter Clagett of Clagett's Purchase (1763-1803) m. Martha Williams (1759-1830), and had
A20) Darius Clagett of Washington, DC (dry goods merchant) (c.1790-1860) m. Providence Dorsey Brice (see C20 below), and had
A21) William Henry Clagett of Washington, DC (1827-1892) m. (Mary) Adele Clare (1836-1917), and had
A22) Mary Allen Clagett (1872-1946) m. 2) George Howard, president of Dupont National Bank (1869-1919)
B1) Thomas of Brotherton, 1st Earl of Norfolk, by 2nd wife (1300-1338) m. 1) Alice Hales (c.1305-1330), and had
B2) Margaret of Brotherton, Duchess of Norfolk (c.1322-1399) m. 1) John, 4th Lord Segrave (1315-1353), and had
B3) Elizabeth, 5th Lady Segrave (1338-1366) m. John, 4th Lord Mowbray (1340-1368), and had 2 daus B4 & C4 (see below)
B4) Margaret Mowbray (c.1361-by1401) m. Sir Reginald Lucy of Dallington (by1360-1437), and had
B5) Sir Walter Lucy of Dallington (c.1380-1444) m. Eleanor Arcedekne (1383-1447), and had
B6) Eleanor Lucy (c.1406-bef.1460) m. Thomas Hopton of Hopton Castle (by1399-aft.1453), and had
B7) Elizabeth Hopton (1427-1498) m. 3) Sir William Stanley of Holt Castle (see D6 below), and had
B8) Jane Stanley (b. c.1471) m. Sir John Warburton of Warburton (d. 1523), and had
B9) Ellen Warburton m. John Carrington of Carrington (c.1495-1549), and had
B10) Margaret Carrington m. Peter Domville of Lymm (c.1522-1569), and had
B11) Gilbert Domville of Lymm (d. 1607) m. 1) Margaret Sneyd (d. 1592), and had
B12) Edward Domville of Lymm (c.1580-1639) m. Eleanor Leycester (d. 1660), and had
B13) Margaret Domville (d. aft.1665) m. 1) Richard Hatton of Lymm (1605-by1648), and had
B14) Mary Hatton (b. 1638) m. Zachary Wade of Stony Harbor (c.1627-1677), and had
B15) Robert Wade of Stony Harbor (1668-1714) m. Elizabeth Sprigg, and had
B16) Anne Wade m. Capt. Alexander Magruder of Frederick County, MD (c.1703-1751), and had
B17) Sarah Magruder (b. 1724) m. John Clagett of Clagett's Purchase (see A18 above)
C4) Eleanor Mowbray (c.1359-aft.1399) m. John, 5th Lord Welles (1352-1421), and had
C5) Sir Eudo Welles (c.1380-aft.1407) m. Maud Greystoke (b. c.1386), and had
C6) Sir William Welles of Posseckstown (c.1408-1463) m. Anne Barnewall, and had
C7) Elizabeth Welles (1440-1506) m. 1) Christopher Plunkett, 2nd Lord Killeen (1442-1467), and had
C8) Genet Plunkett m. Nicholas St Lawrence, 3rd Lord Howth (d. 1526), and had
C9) Christopher St Lawrence (c.1501-1542) m. Anne Bermingham, and had
C10) Margaret St Lawrence m. Stephen Cashell of Dundalk (d. 1564), and had
C11) Margaret Cashell m. Thomas Dillon of Kilmackeron (d. 1593), and had
C12) Robert Dillon of Cannerstown Castle (c.1575-aft.1641) m. Hon. Margaret Dillon, and had
C13) Mary Dillon m. Toirdhealbach MacCoghlan of Kilcogan Castle (d. 1653), and had
C14) Margaret MacCoghlan m. Charles O'Duinn of Brittas (see G13 below), and had
C15) Clare O'Duinn m. Col. Charles Carroll of Clonlik Castle (see E13 below), and had
C16) Dr Charles Carroll of Annapolis (1691-1755) m. Dorothy Blake (1702-1734), and had
C17) Mary Clare Carroll (1727-1781) m. Nicholas Maccubbin of Sparrow's Rest (1710-1787), and had
C18) Mary Clare Maccubbin (1749-1806) m. John Brice III of Annapolis (1738-1820), and had
C19) John Brice IV of Baltimore (1770-1850) m. Sarah Lane (1776-1839), and had
C20) Providence Dorsey Brice (1801-1861) m. Darius Clagett of Washington, DC (see A20 above)
D1) Princess Elizabeth Plantagenet (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl of Hereford (1276-1322), and had a son D2 & a dau E2 (see below)
D2) William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton (c.1309-1360) m. Elizabeth Badlesmere (c.1310-1356), and had
D3) Lady Elizabeth de Bohun (c.1344-1385) m. Richard Fitzalan, 4th Earl of Arundel (1346-1397), and had
D4) Lady Elizabeth Fitzalan (c.1370-1425) m. 3) Sir Robert Goushill of Hoveringham (c.1360-1403), and had
D5) Joan Goushill (b. c.1401) m. Thomas, 1st Lord Stanley (1406-1459), and had
D6) Sir William Stanley of Holt Castle (d. 1495) m. 2) Elizabeth Hopton (see B7 above)
E2) Lady Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of Ormond (1305-1338), and had
E3) James Butler, 2nd Earl of Ormond (1331-1382) m. Elizabeth Darcy (1332-1390), and had 2 daus E4 & K4, and a son J4 (see below)
E4) Lady Joan Butler (c.1353-1383) m. Tadhg Aibhle O'Carroll, Lord of Éile (d. 1407), and had
E5) Mulroney O'Carroll, Lord of Éile (d. 1443) m. Bibiana O'Dempsey (d. aft.1490), and had a son E6 & a dau G6 (see below)
E6) John O'Carroll of Muirratagh m. --- Macnamara, and had
E7) Mulroney O'Carroll, Lord of Éile (c.1470-1532) m. and had a mistress, and had a son E8 & a dau F8 (see below)
E8) Ferganainm O'Carroll, Lord of Éile, illegit. by mistress (d. 1541) m. Lady Elizabeth Fitzgerald (see M9 below), and had
E9) Sir William O'Carroll, Lord of Éile (d. 1581) m. Sabine Fitzpatrick (see H10 below), and had
E10) Tadhg O'Carroll of Leap Castle (d. by 1580) m. "lady of Galway", and had
E11) Maolruanaidh MacTadhg O'Carroll of Tewriske (d. 1595) m. Margaret O'Duinn (see O12 below), and had
E12) John O'Carroll of Clonlisk Castle, last Lord of Éile (1596-aft.1663) m. Mary Dillon (see F12 below), and had
E13) Col. Charles Carroll of Clonlisk Castle (c.1635-by 1712) m. Clare O'Duinn (see C15 above)
F8) Grace O'Carroll, by wife (see K8 below) m. Ulick de Burgh, 1st Earl of Clanricarde (c.1500-1544), and had
F9) Richard de Burgh, 2nd Earl of Clanricarde (c.1530-1582) m. 2) Lady Margaret O'Brien (see I10 below), and had
F10) Lady Mary Burgh (c.1554-1624) m. 2) Sir John Moore of Cloghan Castle (c.1555-1631), and had
F11) Jane Moore m. Sir Lucas Dillon of Loughglynn (d. by 1659), and had
F12) Mary Dillon m. John O'Carroll of Clonlisk Castle (see E12 above)
G6) Gylys O'Carroll (d. 1506) m. Sir Edmund Butler of Paulstown Castle (see J6 below), and had
G7) Sir James Butler of Paulstown Castle (d. 1487) m. Sabine Kavanagh (d. by 1508), and had
G8) Piers Butler, 8th Earl of Ormonde (1467-1539) m. Lady Margaret Fitzgerald (see L8 below), and had a son G9 & 2 daus H9 & I9 (see below)
G9) Thomas Butler (c.1502-1532) m. ----[?], and had
G10) Margaret Butler m. 2) Sir Maurice Fitzgerald of Laccagh Castle (see Q10 below), and had
G11) James Fitzgerald of Kilrush (d. 1602) m. [dau] O'Duinn (see N12 below), and had
G12) [dau] Fitzgerald m. Brian Og O'Duinn of Brittas (see P13 below), and had
G13) Charles O'Duinn of Brittas (c.1620-1681) m. Margaret MacCoghlan (see C14 above)
H9) Lady Margaret Butler (d. 1546) m. 2) Barnaby Fitzpatrick, 1st Baron of Upper Ossory (d. 1575), and had
H10) Sabine Fitzpatrick (d. 1583) m. Sir William O'Carroll, Lord of Éile (see E9 above)
I9) Lady Ellen Butler (c.1517-1597) m. Donough O'Brien, 2nd Earl of Thomond (c.1515-1553), and had
I10) Lady Margaret O'Brien (c.1533-1568) m. 2) Richard de Burgh, 2nd Earl of Clanricarde (see F9 above)
J4) James Butler, 3rd Earl of Ormond (c.1360-1405) m. 1) Anne Welles (d. 1399), and had
J5) Sir Richard Butler of Paulstown Castle (1396-1445) m. Katherine O'Reilly, and had
J6) Sir Edmund Butler of Paulstown Castle (c.1420-1464) m. Gylys O'Carroll (see G6 above)
K4) Lady Eleanor Butler (c.1350-1392) m. Gerald Fitzgerald, 3rd Earl of Desmond (c.1338-1398), and had a son K5 & a dau R5 (see below)
K5) James Fitzgerald, 6th Earl of Desmond (c.1385-by1463) m. Mary de Burgh (d. 1435), and had a son K6 & a dau L6 (see below)
K6) Thomas Fitzgerald, 7th Earl of Desmond (c.1426-1468) m. Ellice Barry (see R7 below), and had
K7) Lady Ellen Fitzgerald m. Turlogh Og O'Brien, Chief of Thomond (d. 1499), and had
K8) Margery O'Brien m. Mulroney O'Carroll, Lord of Éile (see E7 above)
L6) Lady Joan Fitzgerald (c.1435-1486) m. Thomas Fitzgerald, 7th Earl of Kildare (c.1430-1478), and had 2 sons L7 & Q7 (see below)
L7) Gerald Fitzgerald, 8th Earl of Kildare (c.1456-1513) m. twice and had a mistress, and had 2 daus L8 & N8, and a son M8 (see below)
L8) Lady Margaret Fitzgerald, by 1st wife (c.1476-1542) m. Piers Butler, 8th Earl of Ormonde (see G8 above)
M8) Gerald Fitzgerald, 9th Earl of Kildare, by 1st wife (1487-1534) m. 1) Elizabeth Zouche (d. 1517), and had
M9) Lady Elizabeth Fitzgerald (b. c.1512) m. Ferganainm O'Carroll, Lord of Éile (see E8 above)
N8) Katherine Fitzgerald, illegit. by mistress, m. Peter Talbot of Malahide Castle (d. 1529), and had
N9) Margaret Talbot m. Thomas Eustace, 1st Viscount Baltinglass (c.1480-1549), and had
N10) Hon. Katherine Eustace m. James Fitzgerald of Ballyshannon Castle (d. by 1568), and had
N11) Elizabeth Fitzgerald m. Tadhg Og O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan (d. 1607), and had 2 daus N12 & O12, and a son P12 (see below)
N12) [dau] O'Duinn m. James Fitzgerald of Kilrush (see G11 above)
O12) Margaret O'Duinn m. Maolruanaidh MacTadhg O'Carroll of Tewriske (see E11 above)
P12) Brian O'Duinn of Brittas (d. 1614) m. --- O'Molloy, and had
P13) Brian Og O'Duinn of Brittas (c.1593-1661) m. [dau] Fitzgerald (see G12 above)
Q7) Sir Thomas Fitzgerald of Laccagh Castle (c.1458-1487) m. Elizabeth Preston, and had
Q8) Maurice FitzThomas Fitzgerald of Laccagh Castle (d. 1520) m. Anne Eustace, and had
Q9) Thomas Fitzgerald of Laccagh Castle (d. 1533) m. Eleanor Delahyde, and had
Q10) Sir Maurice Fitzgerald of Laccagh Castle (1526-1575) m. Margaret Butler (see G10 above)
R5) Lady Ellice Fitzgerald (b. c.1370) m. John Barry, 10th Lord of Olethan (1367-1420), and had
R6) William Barry, 11th Lord of Olethan (d. 1480) m. Ellen Roche, and had
R7) Ellice Barry (b. c.1440) m. 1) Thomas Fitzgerald, 7th Earl of Desmond (see K6 above)
Cheers, -----Brad
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Mar 19, 2015, 3:08:15 PM3/19/15
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As a source you mention Brice Clagett's 2002 ahnentafel of Dr. Charles Carroll of Annapolis, but I notice that in some cases here you haven't followed Brice's choices for some parentages. There is uncertainty in some of these cases and I think your choices are perhaps right, but I'd be interested in your thoughts and the sources that support these choices.
1) At F8, you indicate that Grace O'Carroll, wife of the 1st Earl of Clanricarde, was the daughter of Mulroney O'Carroll of Ely O'Carroll by his wife Margery O'Brien of Thomond. Grace (Grainne) is #93 in Brice's ahnentafel and is said to be a daughter of Mulroney by NN O'Kennedy Finn, presumably a mistress. I think Brice has perhaps slipped up here because RD600 says NN O'Kennedy Finn was Mulroney O'Carroll's mother, not his mistress (or wife).
2) At E8, you indicate that Ferganainm O'Carroll of Ely O'Carroll was married to Elizabeth Fitzgerald, daughter of the 9th Earl of Kildare. Ferganainm is #64 in the ahnentafel and Brice does not give him a wife. I've seen one Kildare pedigree (Archadall's edition of Lodge's Peerage of Ireland) that says Elizabeth married an unnamed O'Carroll of Ely O'Carroll. Chronologically this would seem to be the right one, but I haven't seen any other source that supports this.
3) At G10, you indicate that Margaret Butler, wife of Sir Maurice Fitzgerald of Lackagh, was the daughter of Thomas Butler, son of the 8th Earl of Ormonde. This is supported by a pedigree of Fitzgerald of Lackagh in vol. 1 of the Kildare Archaeological Society Journal. But Brice's ahnentafel has Margaret (at #53) as the daughter of Edmund Butler, Archbishop of Cashel, an illegitimate son of the 8th Earl of Ormonde (and thus half-brother of Thomas Butler above). This parentage is supported by CP 3:224 (sub Clanmalier) with respect to Mary, daughter of Sir Maurice Fitzgerald of Lackagh and Margaret Butler. I'm surprised that Brice made this choice, as I know that he was aware of the Lackagh pedigree in KASJ.
Thanks for any help you can provide on these points. I haven't yet finished going through all these descents, so there may be further questions. :-)
Brad Verity
Mar 19, 2015, 11:12:51 PM3/19/15
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On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 12:08:15 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> This is an interesting and complicated sets of descents - and, given its largely Irish content, appropriately posted on St. Patrick's Day! :-)
> As a source you mention Brice Clagett's 2002 ahnentafel of Dr. Charles Carroll of Annapolis, but I notice that in some cases here you haven't followed Brice's choices for some parentages. There is uncertainty in some of these cases and I think your choices are perhaps right, but I'd be interested in your thoughts and the sources that support these choices.
Thanks, John. I'm afraid I'm little to no help on the O'Carrolls of Éile, as I have no sources for them outside of the bios in ODNB.
> This is an interesting and complicated sets of descents - and, given its largely Irish content, appropriately posted on St. Patrick's Day! :-)
> As a source you mention Brice Clagett's 2002 ahnentafel of Dr. Charles Carroll of Annapolis, but I notice that in some cases here you haven't followed Brice's choices for some parentages. There is uncertainty in some of these cases and I think your choices are perhaps right, but I'd be interested in your thoughts and the sources that support these choices.
> 1) At F8, you indicate that Grace O'Carroll, wife of the 1st Earl of Clanricarde, was the daughter of Mulroney O'Carroll of Ely O'Carroll by his wife Margery O'Brien of Thomond. Grace (Grainne) is #93 in Brice's ahnentafel and is said to be a daughter of Mulroney by NN O'Kennedy Finn, presumably a mistress. I think Brice has perhaps slipped up here because RD600 says NN O'Kennedy Finn was Mulroney O'Carroll's mother, not his mistress (or wife).
Per his ODNB bio, this Mulroney was "the son of John O'Carroll (d. 1491)", and "the grandson and namesake of Mulroney the Bearded (d. 1443), Mulroney succeeded his uncle William as chieftain about 1491, in which year he and his step-grandmother Bibiana O'Dempsey founded a monastery at Roscrea". So apparently Brice Clagett and RD600 are wrong in making Bibiana O'Dempsey the grandmother of this Mulroney, but I have not seen any decent pedigree account of these O'Carrolls, so who knows, really. The ODNB bio goes on to say, "Mulroney's prestige enabled him to marry his daughter Grace to Ulick Bourke, later earl of Clanricarde, coercing him when he had second thoughts at the ceremony. Mulroney died at Leap in 1532, a bitter succession dispute between his son and brothers ensuing". So at least there's verification that Grace, countess of Clanricarde was this Mulroney's daughter. I assume she was legitimate, but, again, no definitive evidence one way or the other.
I have the mother of this Mulroney as --- Macnamara, but again, no source. His ODNB bio doesn't state who his mother was.
> 2) At E8, you indicate that Ferganainm O'Carroll of Ely O'Carroll was married to Elizabeth Fitzgerald, daughter of the 9th Earl of Kildare. Ferganainm is #64 in the ahnentafel and Brice does not give him a wife. I've seen one Kildare pedigree (Archadall's edition of Lodge's Peerage of Ireland) that says Elizabeth married an unnamed O'Carroll of Ely O'Carroll. Chronologically this would seem to be the right one, but I haven't seen any other source that supports this.
Also per the ODNB bio of Ferganainm O'Carroll, he was "the illegitimate but favourite son of Mulroney the Great and a daughter of the Wicklow chieftain McMurrough Kavanagh".
> 3) At G10, you indicate that Margaret Butler, wife of Sir Maurice Fitzgerald of Lackagh, was the daughter of Thomas Butler, son of the 8th Earl of Ormonde. This is supported by a pedigree of Fitzgerald of Lackagh in vol. 1 of the Kildare Archaeological Society Journal. But Brice's ahnentafel has Margaret (at #53) as the daughter of Edmund Butler, Archbishop of Cashel, an illegitimate son of the 8th Earl of Ormonde (and thus half-brother of Thomas Butler above). This parentage is supported by CP 3:224 (sub Clanmalier) with respect to Mary, daughter of Sir Maurice Fitzgerald of Lackagh and Margaret Butler. I'm surprised that Brice made this choice, as I know that he was aware of the Lackagh pedigree in KASJ.
> Thanks for any help you can provide on these points. I haven't yet finished going through all these descents, so there may be further questions. :-)
Cheers, ----Brad
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Mar 20, 2015, 5:38:50 PM3/20/15
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With respect to point 2 above (Ferganainm O'Carroll and Elizabeth FitzGerald), ODNB does provide a source which essentially agrees that they were married (although it doesn't give the daughter of the 9th Earl of Kildare a specific name). This is an 1858 book, "The Earls of Kildare and Their Ancestors" by the then Marquess of Kildare (later the 4th Duke of Leinster). It is available here (see page 122): https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_6aJCAAAAYAAJ
With respect to point 3 above (the father of Margaret Butler, wife of Sir Maurice Fitzgerald of Lackagh), I've found that the Butler family of Ormonde is covered in an article on the Viscounts Mountgarret in vol. 4 of Archdall's edition of Lodge's Peerage of Ireland. Page 21 of vol. 4 covers Thomas Butler and says that Margaret Butler was his daughter - as you have indicated and as was stated in the KASJ article mentioned above. It's unclear why Brice Clagett took a different view on this point.
I'm looking forward to receiving a copy of Brice Clagett's article from the Journal of the Butler Society. Hopefully that will give us some information to add to this discussion.
Brad Verity
Mar 21, 2015, 12:18:36 PM3/21/15
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On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 8:12:51 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> I have three daughters in my database for Mulroney O'Carroll, Lord of Éile (c.1470-1532) and his wife Margery O'Brien, one of them Grace. I have a date of 9 Oct 2014 for Margery O'Brien, but have no idea what online source I used to determine she was his wife. It could well be wrong.
That 2014 date is when I first entered Margery O'Brien in my database. Here is an online pedigree that shows her as his wife, provides her ancestry, and incorrectly shows her as mother of his bastard son & heir Ferganainm O'Carroll:
> I have three daughters in my database for Mulroney O'Carroll, Lord of Éile (c.1470-1532) and his wife Margery O'Brien, one of them Grace. I have a date of 9 Oct 2014 for Margery O'Brien, but have no idea what online source I used to determine she was his wife. It could well be wrong.
http://www.mostyn.com/wc08/wc08_004.htm
The other two daughters I have in my database for this couple (in addition to Grace, countess of Clanricarde) are 1) More O'Carroll (d. 1548) m. before 1533, James, 13th Earl of Desmond (c.1500-1558); 2) Shylie O'Carroll m. Edmund FitzMaurice Fitzgerald of Ballymartyr Castle. Their son John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald (d. 1589) has a bio in ODNB.
Neither the ODNB bio of the 13th Earl of Desmond, nor that of John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald mention who the mother was of More & Shylie O'Carroll. They are simply called daughters of Mulroney O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll. Nor does Mulroney's ODNB bio mention who his wife was. I've made More, Shylie and their sister Grace legitimate daughters of Mulroney simply by default. A big part of the problem is that Brehon law in Ireland allowed for multiple marriages, and many of these Irish chieftains took full advantage of that, so It's often difficult to determine which of their wives, mistresses, etc., were mother to which children. A daughter who would be considered a bastard per English law, was not considered so in Brehon law, and could make as advantageous a marriage as a legitimate daughter.
On Friday, March 20, 2015 at 2:38:50 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Thanks for mentioning the ODNB bio of the various O'Carrolls (all in one article). The fact that ODNB says that Bibiana O'Dempsey was the stepgrandmother, rather than grandmother, of Mulroney O'Carroll (d. 1532) is quite interesting, but will probably be difficult to verify.
> With respect to point 2 above (Ferganainm O'Carroll and Elizabeth FitzGerald), ODNB does provide a source which essentially agrees that they were married (although it doesn't give the daughter of the 9th Earl of Kildare a specific name). This is an 1858 book, "The Earls of Kildare and Their Ancestors" by the then Marquess of Kildare (later the 4th Duke of Leinster). It is available here (see page 122): https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_6aJCAAAAYAAJ
> With respect to point 3 above (the father of Margaret Butler, wife of Sir Maurice Fitzgerald of Lackagh), I've found that the Butler family of Ormonde is covered in an article on the Viscounts Mountgarret in vol. 4 of Archdall's edition of Lodge's Peerage of Ireland. Page 21 of vol. 4 covers Thomas Butler and says that Margaret Butler was his daughter - as you have indicated and as was stated in the KASJ article mentioned above.
https://archive.org/stream/peerageofireland04lodg#page/20/mode/2up
I had found Margaret Butler's two marriages in a different source, the 1906 book 'An Account of the O'Dempseys, Chiefs of Clan Maliere' by Thomas Mathews, who states, "Sir Maurice [Fitzgerald of Lackagh], who married Dame Margaret Butler, daughter of Thomas, third son of Piers, eighth Earl of Ormond, and relict of Rory Coach O'More":
https://archive.org/stream/accountodempsey00mathgoog#page/n108/mode/2up
Mathews cites the KASJ article 'The Fitzgeralds of Lackagh', which you've mentioned, as his source. Do you have an Internet Archive link to Volume 1 of the Journal of the County Kildare Archaeological Society? Google Books has that volume, but I can't access it in Canada.
> It's unclear why Brice Clagett took a different view on this point.
> I'm looking forward to receiving a copy of Brice Clagett's article from the Journal of the Butler Society. Hopefully that will give us some information to add to this discussion.
And speaking of these Edward I lines for the Clagetts & the Carrolls, I want to thank Olivier for pointing out to me yet another Edward I line that I've now added into my database.
On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 7:43:05 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> G6) Gylys O'Carroll (d. 1506) m. Sir Edmund Butler of Paulstown Castle (see J6 below), and had
> G7) Sir James Butler of Paulstown Castle (d. 1487) m. Sabine Kavanagh (d. by 1508), and had
> G8) Piers Butler, 8th Earl of Ormonde (1467-1539) m. Lady Margaret Fitzgerald (see L8 below), and had a son G9 & 2 daus H9 & I9 (see below)
G6) Gylys O'Carroll (d. 1506) m. Sir Edmund Butler of Paulstown Castle (see J6 below), and had a son G7 & a dau S7 (see below)
S7) Katherine Butler m. Edmund Butler, 8th Lord of Dunboyne (d. 1498), and had
S8) Alice* Butler (d. 1501) m. Sir Christopher Barnewall of Crickstown Castle, and had
S9) Edmund Barnewall of Crickstown Castle (c.1480-1511) m. Elizabeth Plunkett, and had
S10) Jenet Barnewall m. Sir Robert Dillon of Newtown Trim (c.1500-1579), and had
S11) Thomas Dillon of Kilmackeron (d. 1593) m. Margaret Cashell (see C11 above)
*She is called 'Alice' Butler in BP 2003 edition, sub Barnewall, and in Leo's database she is called 'Ellen' Butler. Perhaps her first name was actually 'Gylys' Butler, after her maternal grandmother Gylys O'Carroll, and 'Gylys' got morphed into 'Alice'? At any rate, Leo has this wife of Sir Christopher Barnewall as a granddaughter of Sir Edmund MacRichard Butler of Paulstown Castle (c.1420-1564):
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00248743&tree=LEO
But it is impossible chronologically for her to have been Sir Edmund's granddaughter. The chronology is tight, but just works out, for Sir Edmund MacRichard Butler of Paulstown and Buolick, born about 1420, to have had a daughter who in turn had a grandson Edmund Barnewall born about 1480.
Cheers, ------Brad
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Mar 21, 2015, 8:03:43 PM3/21/15
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On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 9:18:36 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> I had found Margaret Butler's two marriages in a different source, the 1906 book 'An Account of the O'Dempseys, Chiefs of Clan Maliere' by Thomas Mathews, who states, "Sir Maurice [Fitzgerald of Lackagh], who married Dame Margaret Butler, daughter of Thomas, third son of Piers, eighth Earl of Ormond, and relict of Rory Coach O'More":
> https://archive.org/stream/accountodempsey00mathgoog#page/n108/mode/2up
>
> Mathews cites the KASJ article 'The Fitzgeralds of Lackagh', which you've mentioned, as his source. Do you have an Internet Archive link to Volume 1 of the Journal of the County Kildare Archaeological Society? Google Books has that volume, but I can't access it in Canada.
> Cheers, ------Brad
> I had found Margaret Butler's two marriages in a different source, the 1906 book 'An Account of the O'Dempseys, Chiefs of Clan Maliere' by Thomas Mathews, who states, "Sir Maurice [Fitzgerald of Lackagh], who married Dame Margaret Butler, daughter of Thomas, third son of Piers, eighth Earl of Ormond, and relict of Rory Coach O'More":
> https://archive.org/stream/accountodempsey00mathgoog#page/n108/mode/2up
>
> Mathews cites the KASJ article 'The Fitzgeralds of Lackagh', which you've mentioned, as his source. Do you have an Internet Archive link to Volume 1 of the Journal of the County Kildare Archaeological Society? Google Books has that volume, but I can't access it in Canada.
I can't readily find vol. 1 of KASJ at the Internet Archive - although volumes 2 through 6 are all there, in the Google-scanned versions. But IA seems to have implemented a major redesign of their website in the past day or two, so I may have missed something.
I got my copy of the article on Fitzgerald of Lackagh at the FHL many years ago. If you'd like, I can scan and send you a copy of the article - including the chart pedigree, which is mangled in the Google scanning.
Brad Verity
Mar 21, 2015, 8:25:41 PM3/21/15
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On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 5:03:43 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I can't readily find vol. 1 of KASJ at the Internet Archive - although volumes 2 through 6 are all there, in the Google-scanned versions. But IA seems to have implemented a major redesign of their website in the past day or two, so I may have missed something.
> I got my copy of the article on Fitzgerald of Lackagh at the FHL many years ago. If you'd like, I can scan and send you a copy of the article - including the chart pedigree, which is mangled in the Google scanning.
Thanks, John, that would be a huge help.
> I can't readily find vol. 1 of KASJ at the Internet Archive - although volumes 2 through 6 are all there, in the Google-scanned versions. But IA seems to have implemented a major redesign of their website in the past day or two, so I may have missed something.
> I got my copy of the article on Fitzgerald of Lackagh at the FHL many years ago. If you'd like, I can scan and send you a copy of the article - including the chart pedigree, which is mangled in the Google scanning.
Cheers, ----Brad
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Mar 21, 2015, 11:31:54 PM3/21/15
to
> On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 9:18:36 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
>
> > I had found Margaret Butler's two marriages in a different source, the 1906 book 'An Account of the O'Dempseys, Chiefs of Clan Maliere' by Thomas Mathews, who states, "Sir Maurice [Fitzgerald of Lackagh], who married Dame Margaret Butler, daughter of Thomas, third son of Piers, eighth Earl of Ormond, and relict of Rory Coach O'More":
> > https://archive.org/stream/accountodempsey00mathgoog#page/n108/mode/2up
> >
> > Mathews cites the KASJ article 'The Fitzgeralds of Lackagh', which you've mentioned, as his source. Do you have an Internet Archive link to Volume 1 of the Journal of the County Kildare Archaeological Society? Google Books has that volume, but I can't access it in Canada.
>
> > Cheers, ------Brad
>
A further note on the paternity of Margaret Butler, wife successively of Rory "Caoch" O'More and Sir Maurice FitGerald of Lackagh:
>
> > I had found Margaret Butler's two marriages in a different source, the 1906 book 'An Account of the O'Dempseys, Chiefs of Clan Maliere' by Thomas Mathews, who states, "Sir Maurice [Fitzgerald of Lackagh], who married Dame Margaret Butler, daughter of Thomas, third son of Piers, eighth Earl of Ormond, and relict of Rory Coach O'More":
> > https://archive.org/stream/accountodempsey00mathgoog#page/n108/mode/2up
> >
> > Mathews cites the KASJ article 'The Fitzgeralds of Lackagh', which you've mentioned, as his source. Do you have an Internet Archive link to Volume 1 of the Journal of the County Kildare Archaeological Society? Google Books has that volume, but I can't access it in Canada.
>
> > Cheers, ------Brad
>
When I was looking for volume 1 of KASJ at the Internet Archive, I stumbled across volume 6 of the same journal, available here:
https://archive.org/details/journalofcountyk6190coun
That volume has a long article on the O'More family of Kildare and Leix - including Rory "Caoch" O'More mentioned above. At page 35 of that article is mentioned Callough, son of Rory "Caoch" O'More by his 2nd wife Margaret Butler, "the daughter of Edmund Butler, Archbishop of Cashel, illegimate son of Pierce, 8th Earl of Ormond" - not Thomas Butler, legitimate son of the 8th Earl. The same article subsequently mentions that Margaret's 2nd husband was Sir Maurice FitzGerald of Lackagh.
The interesting thing is that the author of this article (in 1909) was Lord Walter FitzGerald (son of the 4th Duke of Leinster) - who was also the author of the 1894 article on the FitzGeralds of Lackagh, in which he identified Margaret's father (probably based on Archdall) as Thomas Butler, half-brother of the Archbishop. This would seem to suggest that Lord Walter FitzGerald may have changed his opinion on the paternity of Margaret Butler between 1894 and 1909 (or that he was simply careless in one case or the other). At a minimum it probably indicates that, based on evidence presently available, we cannot be certain about the parentage of Margaret Butler.
FWIW I had previously been aware that Margaret Butler was ancestral to Princess Diana via her 2nd husband Sir Maurice FitzGerald of Lackagh. But the article on the O'More family shows that she was also ancestral to Princess Diana, via her 1st husband Rory "Caoch" O'More. Their son Callough, mentioned above and discussed in the article, is listed as #4276 in Richard K. Evans' 2007 book "The Ancestry of Diana, Princess of Wales", which cites the article in volume 6 of KASJ. Unfortunately the pedigrees of the O'More family (following p. 88 in that volume) have been mangled in the scanning process (this time by IA, not Google)....sigh....
Olivier
Mar 22, 2015, 4:10:32 AM3/22/15
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Did you have the two links between Princess Diana and Margaret Butler ?
Regards,
Olivier
Le dimanche 22 mars 2015 04:31:54 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com a écrit :
> > On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 9:18:36 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> >
....
Regards,
Olivier
Le dimanche 22 mars 2015 04:31:54 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com a écrit :
> > On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 9:18:36 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> >
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Mar 22, 2015, 7:05:49 PM3/22/15
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http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00003068&tree=LEO
The descent to Diana can be easily traced through the families of Sarsfield, Vesey, Bingham, and Spencer.
Olivier
Mar 23, 2015, 4:41:09 AM3/23/15
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Olivier
Brad Verity
Mar 24, 2015, 9:49:18 AM3/24/15
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On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 8:31:54 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> A further note on the paternity of Margaret Butler, wife successively of Rory "Caoch" O'More and Sir Maurice FitGerald of Lackagh:
> When I was looking for volume 1 of KASJ at the Internet Archive, I stumbled across volume 6 of the same journal, available here:
> https://archive.org/details/journalofcountyk6190coun
> That volume has a long article on the O'More family of Kildare and Leix - including Rory "Caoch" O'More mentioned above. At page 35 of that article is mentioned Callough, son of Rory "Caoch" O'More by his 2nd wife Margaret Butler, "the daughter of Edmund Butler, Archbishop of Cashel, illegimate son of Pierce, 8th Earl of Ormond" - not Thomas Butler, legitimate son of the 8th Earl. The same article subsequently mentions that Margaret's 2nd husband was Sir Maurice FitzGerald of Lackagh.
Great find, John! Thank you for the link.
> A further note on the paternity of Margaret Butler, wife successively of Rory "Caoch" O'More and Sir Maurice FitGerald of Lackagh:
> When I was looking for volume 1 of KASJ at the Internet Archive, I stumbled across volume 6 of the same journal, available here:
> https://archive.org/details/journalofcountyk6190coun
> That volume has a long article on the O'More family of Kildare and Leix - including Rory "Caoch" O'More mentioned above. At page 35 of that article is mentioned Callough, son of Rory "Caoch" O'More by his 2nd wife Margaret Butler, "the daughter of Edmund Butler, Archbishop of Cashel, illegimate son of Pierce, 8th Earl of Ormond" - not Thomas Butler, legitimate son of the 8th Earl. The same article subsequently mentions that Margaret's 2nd husband was Sir Maurice FitzGerald of Lackagh.
> The interesting thing is that the author of this article (in 1909) was Lord Walter FitzGerald (son of the 4th Duke of Leinster) - who was also the author of the 1894 article on the FitzGeralds of Lackagh, in which he identified Margaret's father (probably based on Archdall) as Thomas Butler, half-brother of the Archbishop. This would seem to suggest that Lord Walter FitzGerald may have changed his opinion on the paternity of Margaret Butler between 1894 and 1909 (or that he was simply careless in one case or the other). At a minimum it probably indicates that, based on evidence presently available, we cannot be certain about the parentage of Margaret Butler.
https://archive.org/stream/journalofcountyk6190coun#page/26/mode/2up
That's good enough for me - I've adjusted my database. It works well chronologically. Margaret Butler had at least three sons with her first husband, who was murdered by his younger brother in 1545, per his ODNB bio. So a birthdate of about 1520 for Margaret seems reasonable. Edmund Butler was archdeacon of Ossory by 1516, so a birthdate of about 1495 seems reasonable for him.
> FWIW I had previously been aware that Margaret Butler was ancestral to Princess Diana via her 2nd husband Sir Maurice FitzGerald of Lackagh. But the article on the O'More family shows that she was also ancestral to Princess Diana, via her 1st husband Rory "Caoch" O'More. Their son Callough, mentioned above and discussed in the article, is listed as #4276 in Richard K. Evans' 2007 book "The Ancestry of Diana, Princess of Wales", which cites the article in volume 6 of KASJ. Unfortunately the pedigrees of the O'More family (following p. 88 in that volume) have been mangled in the scanning process (this time by IA, not Google)....sigh....
Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Mar 24, 2015, 2:13:40 PM3/24/15
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Based on the FitzGerald article, it's clear that the ODNB article on the O'Mores is wrong in saying that Margaret Butler was the daughter of Thomas Butler rather than Edmund Butler, Archbishop of Cashel. Per FitzGerald, ODNB is also wrong in saying that Margaret Butler was the 1st wife of Rory Caoch O'More and that Rory Oge O'More was her son, rather than a son of an unknown 1st wife of Rory Caoch O'More (as per FitzGerald). This may affect your chronological calculations above.
I've submitted an ILL request for copies of the pedigrees from the O'More article in KASJ - I'll share them with you when/if I get them.
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