Re: C.P. Addition: Isabel Burnell, wife of Sir Robert de Scales, 1st Lord Scales; Alice de Scales, wife of Sir Edward Charles

[celticp...@gmail.com]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage 11 (1949): 499–500 (sub Scales) has a good account of Sir Robert de Scales, 1st Lord Scales, who died in 1305. Regarding his marriage, the following information is provided:

"He married Isabel. He died before 4 Sept. 1305. Isabel survived him and died before 26 July 1333." END OF QUOTE

On page 500, footnote l, the author provides further discussion regarding the possible parentage of Sir Robert's wife, Isabel. It is noted there that the wardship of Sir Robert de Scales was held during his minority by Robert Burnell, Bishop of Bath and Wells [see Rotuli Hundredorum (Rec. Comm.) 1 (1812): 161, 193]. The Complete Peerage editor, George Cokayne, is said to have stated that Isabel, wife of Robert de Scales, was of the family of Burnell, he apparently relying on Chester Waters (Chester of Chicheley, vol. i, pp. 252-255), who in turn cited the Scales Peerage Case, which, however, provided no surname. Elsewhere a note left by Miss Ethel Stokes cited a claim for the right to the arms of Burnell dated 1396 or 1397 (Lovell v. Morley, P.R.O., G.D., 26/6), in which record it was stated that "in the church of Austin Friars, London, there was a chausable with the Burnell arms, formerly in the nunnery of Blackbergh, and the ornament of a vestment with the same, formerly in the church of Middleton [Norfolk], which were given to the friars by a Dame de Scales, who was a daughter of Sieur de Burnell." A deponent in this case further identified the Lady Scales in question as Isabel and stated that she died about 56 years previously [i.e., c.1340], and that "the vestment lay on the tomb of the said lady, which was in the said monastery, on her anniversary"

Given the evidence cited by Miss Ethel Stokes, it seems clear that Isabel, wife of Sir Robert de Scales, was in fact a Burnell. Isabel is elsewhere identified in print as the “daughter of Sir _____ Burnell, Knt., and niece of Robert Burnell, Bishop of Bath and Wells, lord chancellor and treasurer of England” [see Blomefield, Essay towards a Top. Hist. of Norfolk 8 (1808): 20–34; 9 (1808): 20–27; Copinger Manors of Suffolk 4 (1909): 215–218].

As for further connections between the Scales and Burnell families, I find that upon Sir Robert de Scales reaching adulthood, he continued to have associations with his former guardian, Robert Burnell, Bishop of Bath and Wells, his wife's alleged uncle. In 1283, for example, Robert Burnell, Bishop of Bath and Wales, wrote several times to John de Kirkby requesting letters of protection and the release of 30th for Robert de Scales and for the issuance of writs for Robert de Scales and his men [see National Archives, National Archives, SC 1/9/74; SC 1/9/92; SC 1/9/122 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk)]. In 1292 Robert Burnell, Bishop of Bath and Wells, released Robert de Scales of a debt of £26, for the goods, etc., he sold him on the manor of Newsells (in Barkway), Hertfordshire at the time he delivered him seisin of the manor [see Blomefield, Essay towards a Topog. Hist. of Norfolk 9 (1808): 21].

I further find that in 1312 Edward Charles and Alice daughter of Robert de Scales his wife sued Edward Burnell in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a previous agreement made between Robert Burnell, late Bishop of Bath and Wells (whose heir is Edward Burnell the defendant) and the said Edward Charles and Alice his wife and Joan widow of William Charles of the provision of lands and tenements worth £60 per annum for the marriage of the said Edward and Alice [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/195B, image 85f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E2/CP40no195B/aCP40no195Bfronts/IMG_0085.htm)].

The 1312 lawsuit cited above provides new evidence that Sir Robert de Scales and Isabel Burnell his wife had a previously unknown daughter, Alice, wife of Sir Edward Charles. We learn that Bishop Robert Burnell provided lands and tenements worth £60 per annum for the marriage of Alice and Edward. Edward Burnell, the defendant of the 1312 lawsuit, was the great-nephew and male heir of Bishop Burnell.

In 1317 Edward Charles and Alice his wife subsequently put in their claim regarding a fine in favor of John de Haudlo and Maud his wife regarding the manors of Billingford, Norfolk, Haselbech, Northamptonshire, and Great Cheverell, Wiltshire [Reference: CP 25/1/285/30, #143 [see abstract of fine at http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html]). Maud, wife of John de Haudlo, was the sister and heiress of Edward Burnell, the defendant in the 1312 lawsuit mentioned above.

In summary, the evidence is good that Isabel, wife of Sir Robert de Scales, was a Burnell, her arms formerly being on a vestment which lay on her tomb in Blackborough Abbey, Norfolk. She obviously was a near relation to Bishop Robert Burnell who had been her husband's guardian during his minority. Their near kinship is further indicated by the fact that Bishop Burnell made a sizeable gift of lands for the marriage of Isabel de Scales' daughter, Alice, wife of Edward Charles.

For interest's sake, I've copied below my file account of the newly discovered Alice de Scales and her husband, Sir Edward Charles. I believe this couple has modern descendants.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist

+ + + + + + + +

1. ALICE DE SCALES, married before 1292 EDWARD CHARLES, Knt., of Billingford, Kettleburgh, and Sizeland, Norfolk, Greenham, Lincolnshire, Milton (in Castor), Northamptonshire, Dodnash, Suffolk, Brignall and Clif, Yorkshire, etc., Admiral of the North, 1306, son and heir of William Charles, Knt., of Kettleburgh, Loddon, and Thwayt, Norfolk, by his wife, Joan. He was born about 1269 (aged 36 in 1305). They had five sons, William, Robert, Edmund, Edward, and John, and one daughter, Joan. In 1300 Walter de Muncy, Robert de Scales, Edward Charles, and John de Biskele acknowledged that they owed John de Crokesle a debt of 100 marks; to be levied in default of payment of their lands and chattels in cos. Hereford and Kent. In 1301 he granted Edward his son all his lands in Dodnash, Bentley, and Tattingstone, Suffolk, except the land called ‘Manesford.’ In 1302 Roger son of Robert de Eston, of Suffolk, owed him a debt of £160. In 1308–9 he had license to settle the manors of Billingford and Kettleborough, Norfolk on himself and Alice his wife for life, with successive remainders to his sons, William, Robert, Edmund, and Edward. In 1309 Henry de Hales and another settled the manor of Milton (in Castor), Northamptonshire on Edward and Alice his wife for life, with successive remainders to their sons, William, Robert, Edmund, and Edward. The same year his son William Charles quitclaimed to his father the manor of Dodnash, Suffolk. In 1312 Edward Charles and Alice daughter of Robert de Scales his wife sued Edward Burnell in the Court of Common Pleas regarding an earlier agreement between Robert Burnell, late Bishop of Bath and Wells (whose heir is Edward Burnell the defendant) and the said Edward Charles and Alice his wife and Joan widow of William Charles of the provision of lands and tenements worth £60 per annum for the marriage of the said Edward and Alice. In 1314–15 he obtained a license to settle the manor of Kettleburgh, and the advowsons of the churches of Kettleburgh and Easton, Norfolk on himself and Alice his wife for life, with successive remainders to his sons, Robert, Edward, Edmund, and John, and his daughter, Joan. He presented to the church of Thwayt, Norfolk, 1307, 1316, and Billingford, Norfolk, 1308, 1309, and to the mediety of the church of Grayingham (Stow), Lincolnshire, 1324. In 1317 Edward Charles and Alice his wife put in their claim regarding a fine in favor of John de Haudlo and Maud his wife regarding the manors of Billingford, Norfolk, Haselbech, Northamptonshire, and Great Cheverell, Wiltshire. In 1319 and 1324 he sued William Sewale in the Court of Common Pleas in a Norfolk plea. In 1324 he sued Roger Daubeny in a Suffolk plea. In 1327 he sued John Gerard, of Billingford, Norfolk, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a reasonable account of the time he was his bailiff in Lodne, Sizeland, Billingford, and Rokelond, Norfolk. The same year he sued Clement le Spycer, of Ipswich, Suffolk, in the Court of Common Pleas in a Suffolk plea regarding an account. The same year he sued Roger Daubeny in the Court of Common Pleas regarding neifty. In 1327 he sued Agnes Heyron and others regarding lands in Kettleburgh, Rendlesham, Tunstal, and other places in Suffolk. The same year he sued William Lardiner and Alice, widow of Thomas Seman, in the Court of Common Pleas in a Middlesex plea regarding a trespass. In 1327 and 1328 the executors of Henry de Staunton sued him in the Court of Common Pleas in a Suffolk plea regarding a debt. The same years the Abbot of Langley sued him in the Court of Common Pleas regarding land and rent in Hales and Lodne, Norfolk. In 1328 he sued John de Gunton in the Court of Common Pleas in a Norfolk plea regarding the detention of beasts. The same year he sued Roger Howard and John de Brokedisshe in the Court of Common Pleas in a Norfolk plea regarding the detention of beasts. SIR EDWARD CHARLES died 4 March 1329. In 1330 William Charles granted Robert de Stanmere the manor of Dodnash, Suffolk, with the lands and tenements formerly of Edward Charles in Bentley, Tattingstone, Brantham, and Capel St. Mary, Suffolk. In 1333 and 1335 William Charles, son and heir of William Charles, son and heir of Edward Charles, quitclaimed to John de Gusford, Prior of Dodnash, and the canons all his right to lands and tenements in the vills of Bentley, Tattingstone, Stutton, Brantham, and Capel St. Mary, Suffolk, which were once held by Sir Edward Charles his grandfather. In 1336 Edmund and Edward, sons of Edward Charles, Knt., quitclaimed to John de Gusford, Prior of Dodnash, and the canons, all right they might have in the lands and tenements once held by Edward their father in the vills of Bentley, Tattingstone, Brantham, and Capel St. Mary, Suffolk.

References:

Blomefield, Essay towards a Top. Hist. of Norfolk 8 (1808): 192–195 (arms of Sir Edward Charles: Ermine, on a chief, gules, five lozenges, of the first); 10 (1809): 182–184. Palgrave, Parliamentary Writs & Writs of Military Summons 1 (1827): 415 (arms of Sire Edward Charles: de ermyne od le chef de goules a iii. mascles de ermyne.). Page, Top. & Gen. Hist. of Suffolk (1847): 109–111. Hardy & Page, Cal.to Feet of Fines for London & Middlesex 1 (1892): 79. List of Inqs. ad Quod Damnum 1 (PRO Lists and Indexes 17) (1904): 108, 155. Copinger, County of Suffolk 3 (1905): 406–408. C.C.R. 1296–1302 (1906): 384. Cal. IPM 7 (1909): 148–174. Copinger, Manors of Suffolk 4 (1909): 299–301. Index of Placita de Banco 1327–1328 1 (PRO Lists and Indexes 32) (1910): 345, 363, 399, 428, 454; 2 (PRO Lists and Indexes 32) (1910): 608. Bennett, Beneficed Clergy in the Diocese of Lincoln during the Episcopate of Henry Burghersh, 1320–1340 2 (Ph.D. thesis, Univ. of York, 1989): 18. Harper-Bill, Dodnash Priory Charters (Suffolk Rec. Soc. 16) (1998): 20–21, 133–135 (seal of Edmund Charles dated 1336 — Round: shield of arms, ermine, on a chief five lozenges, CHARLES, between three escallops within a pointed gothic quatrefoil, ornamented into small ball flowers along inner edge. Legend: * SIGILLUM * EDMUNDI * CHARLIS.). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/195B, image 85f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E2/CP40no195B/aCP40no195Bfronts/IMG_0085.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/230, image 11f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E2/CP40no230/aCP40no230fronts/IMG_0011.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/251, image 11f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E2/CP40no251/aCP40no251fronts/IMG_0011.htm). National Archives, C 143/74/20; C 143/109/6; C 241/80/43 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). National Archives, CP 25/1/175/62, #33; CP 25/1/285/30, #143 [see abstract of fines at http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html].

[celticp...@gmail.com]

Dear Newsgroup ~

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Robert de Scales, 1st Lord Scales, died 1305, and his wife, Isabel Burnell.

Robert Abell, Marmaduke Beckwith, Dorothy Beresford, William Bladen, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George & Robert Brent, Edward Bromfield, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth, John, and Thomas Butler, Charles Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, William Clopton, William Crymes, Francis Dade, Anne Derehaugh, Henry Fleete, Muriel Gurdon, Anne Humphrey, Edmund Jennings, Edmund, Edward, Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Thomas Owsley, Herbert Pelham, Henry & William Randolph, Mary Johanna Somerset, Margaret Touteville, Margaret Tyndall, Jemima Waldegrave, John West, Hawte Wyatt.

Do you descend from Sir Robert de Scales and his wife, Isabel Scales? If so, I'd very much appreciate seeing your line of descent posted here on the newsgroup.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[celticp...@gmail.com]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Further evidence of a Scales-Burnell marriage is indicated by the following information:

VCH Cambridge 5 (1973): 227–240 (sub Haslingfield: “About 1300 the chancel was refenestrated: glass from one window, moved to the vestry, bears the arms of Scales and Burnel.”).

[monica kanellis]

Could Isabel be the daughter of Sir Hugh Burnell and his wife Isabella Patric?

[celticp...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 7:43:57 AM UTC-7, monica kanellis wrote:

< Could Isabel be the daughter of Sir Hugh Burnell and his wife Isabella Patric?

Dear Monica ~

Robert Burnell, Bishop of Bath and Wells, Chancellor of England, died 1292, is known to have had several brothers, several nephews, and at least two known nieces. I haven't found any direct evidence to tell us exactly how Isabel Burnell, wife of Sir Robert de Scales, 1st Lord Scales, was related to Bishop Burnell. My assumption is that she was his niece. It has been rumored, however, that Bishop Burnell is the unnamed bishop alleged by Archbishop Pecham to have had several illegitimate children by a concubine. If so, it may well be that Isabel (Burnell) de Scales was the Bishop's own daughter, rather than his niece as commonly thought. If the latter is the case, it would explain why the Bishop made such a generous gift to Isabel's daughter, Alice, on her marriage to Sir Edward Charles.

Dawson, Who's who in British History: A-H (1998): 167-168 discusses the issue of Bishop Burnell's nephews and nieces. He states that "a chronicler claimed that these so-called nephews and nieces were Burnell's illegitimate children and historians have generally assumed that Burnell was the unnamed bishop whom Archbishop Pecham claimed had fathered five children by one concubine, but these charges cannot be substantiated. One 'nephew' could have been a son, but he died by 1279. That Burnell's ultimate heir was a genuine nephew shows he had no issue living at his death." END OF QUOTE.

The statement by Dawson that Bishop Burnell would have had "no living issue at his death," as his heir was a genuine nephew makes no sense. Illegitimate issue in this time period were barred from inheritance. The fact that the Bishop's lawful heir was a legitimate nephew does not tell us whether or not the Bishop himself had illegitimate issue living or not at his death. The existence of any illegitimate children would have been immaterial as to who inherited the Bishop's extensive lands.

Two well known members of Bishop Burnell's family include two proven nephews, both named Philip, and both of whom were knights.

The older nephew, Sir Philip Burnell, is believed to have been the son of the Bishop's brother, Philip Burnell. This nephew married Isabel Patrick and died without issue in 1282. As for evidence that this Philip was the Bishop's nephew, see Tait, Chartulary or Register of the Abbey of St. Werburgh, Chester 1 (Chetham Soc. n.s. 79) (1923): 224–225, which includes a record in which Sir Philip Burnel is specifically styled “nephew” [nepoti] by Robert Burnell, Bishop of Bath in receipt dated 1282–92. This Sir Philip Burnell's widow, Isabel Patrick, married (2nd) in or before 1284 Sir Richard de Sutton, by which marriage she has modern descendants.

The second nephew named Sir Philip Burnell was definitely the son and heir of the Bishop's brother, Sir Hugh Burnell (died 1286), of Admaston (in Wrockwardine), Eudon Burnell (in Chetton), Onibury, Rushbury, and Wellington, Shropshire, by his wife, Sibyl (living 1299, died c.1302). This Sir Philip Burnell was born in 1264 and married Maud Fitz Alan. He died in 1294, leaving two children, Edward, Knt. [Lord Burnell] and Maud. For evidence that this Philip was the Bishop's nephew, see the bishop's own inquisition post mortem published in Cal. IPM 3 (1912): 30–54. It was this Sir Philip Burnell's son, Edward Burnell, who was sued in 1312 by Edward Chales and his wife, Alice de Scales.

Both of the above mentioned Sir Philip Burnel's are covered by my book, Royal Ancestry, 5 volume set, published in 2013.

As far as I know, there was no Sir Hugh Burnell, who married Isabella Patrick. There was only Sir Philip Burnell [died 1282] who married Isabel Patrick. And there was Sir Hugh Burnell [died 1286] who married Sibyl.

I trust this answers your question.

[monica kanellis]

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 6:11:40 PM UTC-5, celticp...@gmail.com wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Complete Peerage 11 (1949): 499–500 (sub Scales) has a good account of Sir Robert de Scales, 1st Lord Scales, who died in 1305. Regarding his marriage, the following information is provided:
>
> "He married Isabel. He died before 4 Sept. 1305. Isabel survived him and died before 26 July 1333." END OF QUOTE

Thanks, Douglas. I'm descended from Philip and Maud and don't know much about them. Is there any indication who Sibyl might have been?

best, Monica