CP Addition: Marriage Date of Thomas Mowbray & Elizabeth FitzAlan
Brad Verity
Mowbray, then Earl of Nottingham, married "2ndly, in July 1384,(b)"
Elizabeth, daughter of Richard (Fitzalan), Earl of Arundel, and
Elizabeth de Bohun.
Footnote (b) says, "At Arundel Castle, in the presence of the King and
Queen--though technically without licence (Higden, 'Polychron.', Rolls
Ser., vol. ix, p.44). Pardon for the marriage, 18 Feb. 1388/9 ('Cal.
Patent Rolls 1388-92, p. 16)."
I searched in vain in Higden's 'Polychronicon' for mention of the July
1384 marriage. Nothing. The actual chronicle ends before the death
of Edward III, but there were various appendices tacked on that report
events through the reigns of Richard II and Henry IV.
However, the itinerary of Richard II presented in Nigel Saul's 1997
biography of him (Yale English Monarch series), has the king at
Arundel on July 6th & 7th in 1384 - the only time during his entire
reign Richard was ever at that castle. As the Earl of Arundel was a
very vocal critic of Richard's government, it must have been the
king's devotion to Thomas Mowbray that caused him to grace the
nuptials with his presence. So it's safe to say Thomas Mowbray and
Elizabeth Fitzalan were married on 6/7 July 1384 at Arundel.
The birthdate of their first child Thomas on 17 September 1385 bears
this out, and also suggests Elizabeth Fitzalan must have been born
earlier than the 1372 estimate some genealogists have suggested. She
was probably born no later than 1370. Which puts her in her
mid-to-late 50s at her 1425 death.
From Patent Rolls: "18 Feb. 1389, Westminster. Pardon, by advice of
the Council, to Thomas, earl marshal and earl of Nottingham--to whom
during his minority the king lately granted his lands, then in the
king's hands on account of his minority, without rent, together with
his own marriage, provided that he married Elizabeth, daughter and
heir of Lord Strange of Blackmere, but the marriage was to remain the
king's if he did not marry her or if after marrying her she died, he
being still a minor, which latter event has occurred--for marrying
Elizabeth, daughter of Richard, earl of Arundel, without licence, and
for entering on his lands before livery, and grant to him of all that
pertains to the king for the said trespass, upon his petition. By
p.s."
Why did Thomas Mowbray petition, four-and-a-half years later, for
pardon from the king for a marriage that was attended by the king
himself? Mowbray joined his father-in-law the Earl of Arundel and the
other Lords Appellant in 1388, and in early 1389 Richard II was making
moves to win back the favor of Mowbray and of Henry, Earl of Derby.
So that explains why the king granted the pardon, but not why Mowbray
waited so long to petition for it.
My guess is that he had to wait to achieve his majority before he
could petition, which further corroborates Chris Phillips's suggestion
of a birthdate for him of 1367 or 1368.
Cheers, ------Brad
dot
wrote:
snip
>
>The birthdate of their first child Thomas on 17 September 1385 bears
>this out, and also suggests Elizabeth Fitzalan must have been born
>earlier than the 1372 estimate some genealogists have suggested. She
>was probably born no later than 1370. Which puts her in her
>mid-to-late 50s at her 1425 death.
>
Yorkshire Pedigrees CD page 403
Lady Elizabeth Fitz Alan, Duchess of Norfolk. Born: 1372, Died: 8th
July, (typo) xx25 (1425) ??
Married 1st William Montacute
2nd Thomas Mowbray, Earl of Nottingham,Duke of Norfolk
Died: Venice 27th Sept 1400
3rd Sir Gerard Usflete Will pr:12 Feb 1421 Died overseas
Visitations of Yorkshire 1563-64 page 337
Foot note:
Lady Elizabeth Fitz Alan Born: 1372 Died: 8 July 1425
4th Sir Robert Goushill of Hoveringham co Notts
Hope this helps
Brendan Wilson
Researching: Lowther of Lowther,Westmoreland:Clifford Yks:Brennan,Ballyhack,Wexford:Fitzgibbon,of French Park Rosscommon:Prendergast Waterford:Rowsell & Gregory, Yeovill Som:Wilson,Stockholm:Peters,Hamburg
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> On 29 Sep 2003 00:19:41 -0700, bat...@hotmail.com (Brad Verity)
> wrote:
>
> snip
> >
> >The birthdate of their first child Thomas on 17 September 1385 bears
> >this out, and also suggests Elizabeth Fitzalan must have been born
> >earlier than the 1372 estimate some genealogists have suggested. She
> >was probably born no later than 1370. Which puts her in her
> >mid-to-late 50s at her 1425 death.
> >
>
> Yorkshire Pedigrees CD page 403
>
> Lady Elizabeth Fitz Alan, Duchess of Norfolk. Born: 1372, Died: 8th
> July, (typo) xx25 (1425) ??
>
> Married 1st William Montacute
> 2nd Thomas Mowbray, Earl of Nottingham,Duke of Norfolk
> Died: Venice 27th Sept 1400
> 3rd Sir Gerard Usflete Will pr:12 Feb 1421 Died overseas
>
> Visitations of Yorkshire 1563-64 page 337
> Foot note:
> Lady Elizabeth Fitz Alan Born: 1372 Died: 8 July 1425
>
> 4th Sir Robert Goushill of Hoveringham co Notts
>
>
> Hope this helps
I wish it did. That particular Visitation is full of pedigrees that go
back to William the Conqueror. What evidence did they have in 1564-5
to corroborate these remarkable lists? Some of them are profoundly
wrong. (See if you can find the Neville Admiral therein - and ask what
evidence has there ever been to support that account.)
Later visitations confined themselves to little more than the
grandparents of the person being interviewed. This was on the
excellent basis that the person being interviewed would either have
known or certainly have known well of his grandparents and was likely to
report truly. But of generations earlier than that, they can reduce to
spurious fables if no research had been done.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Graeme Wall
wils...@paradise.net(dot)nz wrote:
> On 29 Sep 2003 00:19:41 -0700, bat...@hotmail.com (Brad Verity) wrote:
>
> snip
> >
> > The birthdate of their first child Thomas on 17 September 1385 bears this
> > out, and also suggests Elizabeth Fitzalan must have been born earlier
> > than the 1372 estimate some genealogists have suggested. She was
> > probably born no later than 1370. Which puts her in her mid-to-late 50s
> > at her 1425 death.
> >
>
> Yorkshire Pedigrees CD page 403
>
> Lady Elizabeth Fitz Alan, Duchess of Norfolk. Born: 1372, Died: 8th July,
> (typo) xx25 (1425) ??
>
> Married 1st William Montacute
> 2nd Thomas Mowbray, Earl of Nottingham,Duke of Norfolk
> Died: Venice 27th Sept 1400
> 3rd Sir Gerard Usflete Will pr:12 Feb 1421 Died overseas
>
> Visitations of Yorkshire 1563-64 page 337 Foot note: Lady Elizabeth Fitz
> Alan Born: 1372 Died: 8 July 1425
>
> 4th Sir Robert Goushill of Hoveringham co Notts
>
>
I thought Goushill was her third husband, and Usflete (Ufflete?) her fourth.
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>