Ada de Morville
DP...@aol.com
First, let me thank all of you for the
excellent research that goes into postings
here. I have learned so much here, both
factual and procedural.
About a year ago, John * posted some
DD corrections for Meschin. In his excellent
outline is reference to Richard de Lucy and
his wife Ada de Morville:
>>1.2.1.1 Richard de Lucy
>>- --------------------------------------
>>Death: 1213[1]
>>Occ: lord of Egremont and Copeland
>>of Egremont and Copeland, Cumberland
>>had grants by charter from King John for a market and fair at Ravenglass,
>>Cumberland:
>> ' M (Charter) Sat; mercatum, granted 20 Aug 1208, by K[ing] John to
>> Richard de Lucy. ' To be held at the manor ' (RCh, p. 182). In 1208,
>> Richard de Luci owed a good palfrey for the market and the fair
>> (below) (PR, 10 John, p. 44). Sat market held by Thomas son of Lambert
>> de Multon recorded in 1292, which he claimed of old (QW, p. 114).
>> F (Charter) f, James the Apostle (25 Jul); feria gr 20 Aug 1208, by K
>> John to Richard de Lucy. To be held at the manor (RCh, p. 182). In
>> 1208, Richard de Luci owed a good palfrey for the fair and the market
>> (above) (PR, 10 John, p. 44). Fair held by Thomas son of Lambert de
>> Multon recorded in 1292, which he claimed of old (QW, p. 114). On 4
>> Apr 1322, a third of a fair (the feast of which was not specified)
>> was assigned to Eleanor, late the wife of Thomas de Multon of Egremont,
>> in dower (CCR, 1318–22, p. 567). '[9]
>>Spouse: Ada de Morville
>>Death: aft 1229[1]
>>Father: Hugh de Morville (-1202)
>>Mother: Hawise de Stuteville (-1228)
>>Children:
>> Amabel
>> Alice (-<1287)
The citations seem to bear out what I've only
seen anecdotally previously, Ada's 2nd marriage
to Thomas de Multon (with the market-right evidently
passing by Ada to Thomas' descendants ?). Does
anyone know of any more explicit sources for her
marriage to de Multon?
Am also curious if there's been any recent
work on the ancestry of Hugh, Ada's father and one
of Beckett's murderers ?
Best regards,
Steve
Tim Powys-Lybbe
<snip on Ada de Morville>
> The citations seem to bear out what I've only
> seen anecdotally previously, Ada's 2nd marriage
> to Thomas de Multon (with the market-right evidently
> passing by Ada to Thomas' descendants ?). Does
> anyone know of any more explicit sources for her
> marriage to de Multon?
>
> Am also curious if there's been any recent
> work on the ancestry of Hugh, Ada's father and one
> of Beckett's murderers ?
Only that Hugh's parents were Simon and Ada Engaine (CP and Sanders'
baronies).
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Patricia Junkin
Kendal d.1184 by whom she had Helewise (2) Hugh de Moreville of Burgh,
Cumberland [prob. cousin of Maud de Morville] d. 1202 by whom she had Ada
and Joan (3) William son of Ranulf, lord of Greystoke d.1209 by whom she had
Thomas. In 1209 Robert de Vipont owed 500 marks for and 5 palfreys for the
custody of the land and heirs of William and the marriage of his widow.
Helewise died after 1228 [Bevan:Gen-Med]
Ada de Morvil was in the gift of the King John and made fine with him that
she might be able to marry herself where she pleased, and for having her
inheritance...and dower, by 500l.; Thomas de Muleton has her now; and her
land is worth 20l. a year. The forestership of Cumberland used to render 10
marks a year at the King零 Exchecquer. And it is the right of Ada, daughter
of Hugh de Morville and sister of Maud(?), whom Thomas de Multon has to
wife. Robert de Veteri Ponte holds that forestership now [bef. 1200] .
Victoria History of the Counties of England.: Cumberland. p. 420.
The Hugh who was implicated in the murder of Becket was the son of Hugh and
Beatrice Beauchamp and the brother of the Maud who married William de
Veteriponte.
Pat
----------
>From: Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Ada de Morville
>Date: Sun, Jan 11, 2004, 6:30 AM
Patricia Junkin
The first paragraph is taken from Rosie Bevan's postings in the Gen-Med
Archives.
The last paragraph contains notes from: A History of Cumberland, citing
Testa de Nevill. p. 420 II [Exchequer Q. R. Knights' Fees 1/9, m. I]
County of Cumberland.
Robert de Veteri Ponte has Thomas son of William son of Randulf and his land
in ward (custodia) by King John; and to the same Thomas he married his
daughter; and his land is worth 50 l. a year.
.............
Thomas de Muleton has the two daughters of Richard de Lucy in ward by king
John; and he has married them to his two sons; and the land is worth 40l a
year.
...........
Dame Helewisa de Stuteville is of the King's gift and not married; and her
land is worth 30l. a year, but she has made fine with King John that she may
be in her own gift.
Ada de Morvil was in the gift of the King John and made fine with him that
she might be able to marry herself where she pleased, and for having her
inheritance...and dower, by 500l.; Thomas de Muleton has her now; and her
land is worth 20l. a year.
........................
"These are the Escheats in the Same County"
.............
The forestership (forestaria) of Cumberland used to render 10 marks a year
at the King's exchequer. And it is the right of Ada daughter of Hugh de
Morvill, whom Thomas de Muleton has to wife. Robert de Veteri Ponte holds
that forestership now.
A further entry dated 1212 on page 421 may be helpful.
Richard de Lucy and Richard Gernun hold the land which was Hugh de Morvill's
with the said Hugh's two daughters, from the King, by rendering yearly for
cornage 10l. 2s. 10 1/2d. Earl (comes) Ranulf, formerly lord (dominus) of
Cumberland, gave the aforesaid land to Robert de Trivers, predecessor of the
aforesaid Hugh de Morvill, by the aforesaid service. The aforesaid earl gave
to the aforesaid Robert custody of the forest of Cumberland, by rendering
thence annually 10 marks. The King had the custody of the aforesadi forest.
PJ:1162 Hugh de Morville, Maud零 father died. Hugh and Beatrice Beauchamp
had: Hugh II, Richard, Maud, Malcolm and Ada.
From The Anglo-Norman Era in Scottish History:
袒ichard (above named) who succeeded to the office of Constable and to
most of the Scottish lands in 1162, had also gained a large scale estate in
north-east England by his marriage to Avica daughter of William I of
Lancaster...Other Morvilles of this generation included Maud, who has
bequeathed her name to Maulds Meaburn near Appleby and who married William
de Vieuxpont. It was through Maud that the Vieuxponts and afterwards the
Cliffords obtained the lordship of Westmoreland."
My research tends to agree with the following:
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:14:57 -0800
From: Alan B. Wilson<abwi...@uclink4.berkeley.edu >
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: De Warenne/Alan of Galloway ancestries
In article <16...@obtfc.win-uk.net>, jc...@obtfc.win-uk.net (J.C.B.Sharp)
wrote:
> There were at least three prominent 12th century men named Hugh de
> Morville. It is clear from several recent posts that they are
> easily confused. DNB is no doubt the cause of this.
> > The first Hugh was one of the murderers of Becket. There is
> chronicle evidence that his parents were Hugh de Morville and
> Beatrice de Beauchamp, and that he was lord of Knaresborough and
> Westmorland both of which he lost in rebellion in 1173/4. He
> probably dsp overseas.
> > The second was Hugh of Burgh by Sands. He succeeded his father Simon
> in 1167 and died in 1202. His mother was Ada Engaine and he had two
> daughters Ada and Joan.
> > The third Hugh was constable of Scotland and founder of Dryburgh
> Abbey. He held Cunningham and Lauderdale and died in 1162. His
> children were Richard, Hugh, Roger, Malcolm, John, Ada and Maud.
I do not know the parentage of the elder Hugh de Morvil. The first mention I
have of him is ca. 1124-1153 when he is granted the lordship of
Westmoreland north of Shap Fell and the Howgill Fells, with its centre at
Appleby on the upper Eden by David I.
Hope some of this is helpful. Perhaps others hold better information than I
have so far uncovered.
Pat
----------
>From: Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org>
>To: paju...@erols.com
>Subject: Re: Ada de Morville
>Date: Sun, Jan 11, 2004, 8:15 PM
>
> In message from "Patricia Junkin" <paju...@erols.com> of 12 Jan you wrote:
>
>> 1184 Helewise [Stuteville]. Married (1) William II de Lancaster, lord of
>> Kendal d.1184 by whom she had Helewise (2) Hugh de Moreville of Burgh,
>> Cumberland [prob. cousin of Maud de Morville] d. 1202 by whom she had Ada
>> and Joan (3) William son of Ranulf, lord of Greystoke d.1209 by whom she had
>> Thomas. In 1209 Robert de Vipont owed 500 marks for and 5 palfreys for the
>> custody of the land and heirs of William and the marriage of his widow.
>> Helewise died after 1228 [Bevan:Gen-Med]
>> Ada de Morvil was in the gift of the King John and made fine with him that
>> she might be able to marry herself where she pleased, and for having her
>> inheritance...and dower, by 500l.; Thomas de Muleton has her now; and her
>> land is worth 20l. a year. The forestership of Cumberland used to render 10
>> marks a year at the King零 Exchecquer. And it is the right of Ada, daughter
>> of Hugh de Morville and sister of Maud(?), whom Thomas de Multon has to
>> wife. Robert de Veteri Ponte holds that forestership now [bef. 1200] .
>> Victoria History of the Counties of England.: Cumberland. p. 420.
>> The Hugh who was implicated in the murder of Becket was the son of Hugh and
>> Beatrice Beauchamp and the brother of the Maud who married William de
>> Veteriponte.
>> Pat
>
> The above sound like IPMs. Do you have the references?
>
> And do you have anything on who Hugh de Morville's parents were?
>
>> ----------
>> >From: Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org>
>> >To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>> >Subject: Re: Ada de Morville
>> >Date: Sun, Jan 11, 2004, 6:30 AM
>> >
>>
>> > In message of 11 Jan, DP...@aol.com wrote:
>> >
>> > <snip on Ada de Morville>
>> >
>> >> The citations seem to bear out what I've only
>> >> seen anecdotally previously, Ada's 2nd marriage
>> >> to Thomas de Multon (with the market-right evidently
>> >> passing by Ada to Thomas' descendants ?). Does
>> >> anyone know of any more explicit sources for her
>> >> marriage to de Multon?
>> >>
>> >> Am also curious if there's been any recent
>> >> work on the ancestry of Hugh, Ada's father and one
>> >> of Beckett's murderers ?
>> >
>> > Only that Hugh's parents were Simon and Ada Engaine (CP and Sanders'
>> > baronies).
>
> In particular do you have anything to confirm or deny that Simon was
> Hugh's dad?
DP...@aol.com
Thanks first of all for yesterday's
citations to Ada de Morville's marriages.
To further confuse things, let me
add to Tim's list the Hugh de Morville
who was Bishop of Coutances, Normandy,
in 1208.
Regards, Steve