PA Addition: Henry IV Descent for Mary Jones, 1st Wife of Gov. Thomas Lloyd

[Brad Verity]

In Plantagenet Ancestry 2004 Edition, sub Lloyd, p. 456, it is stated that Thomas Lloyd, the first Governor of Pennsylvania, "He married (1st) 9 Sept. 1665 Mary Jones. They had ten children." In the later 2011 editions, more detail is provided, "He married (1st) 9 Sept. 1665 Mary Jones, daughter of (Col.) roger Jones, of Welshpool, Montgomeryshire, Wales":
http://books.google.ca/books?id=8JcbV309c5UC&pg=PA432&dq=Mary+Jones+married+Thomas+Lloyd&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MzZQVNb3A6qQigLn8oHoBQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Mary%20Jones%20married%20Thomas%20Lloyd&f=false

The identification of the father of Mary Jones is incorrect. Per a notice in 'Notes & Queries' from 1863, "In Burke's Commoners, under 'Lloyd of Dolobran,' Thomas Lloyd is said to have married Mary, daughter of Colonel Roger Jones of Welshpool, Governor of Dublin, temp. James II., who defeated the Marquis of Ormond, &c. This is an error. Mrs. Lloyd's father was certainly Gilbert; and I believe the name of the Colonel Jones who defeated Ormond, to have been neither Gilbert nor Roger, but Michael":
http://books.google.ca/books?id=0BPX2900dxIC&pg=PA128&dq=gilbert+jones+of+welshpool&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0DxQVP3vLoqrjAKsloDgDg&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=gilbert%20jones%20of%20welshpool&f=false

Mary Jones's father was Gilbert Jones of Welshpool. The article on the Lloyd family of Dolobran in 'Dictionary of Welsh Biography' agrees that Mary Jones was the daughter of Gilbert Jones of Welshpool, not Col. Roger Jones:
http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-LLOY-DOL-1292.html

R. Williams, in a footnote to his article 'Montgomeryshire Nonconformity: Extracts from Gaol Files, with Notes' in 'The Montgomeryshire Collections' Vol. 25 (1891), also concurs, "Thomas Lloyd's wife was Mary, daughter of Gilbert Jones of Welshpool":
http://books.google.ca/books?id=_9k4AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=gilbert+jones+of+welshpool&source=bl&ots=vSEcR_g045&sig=rws0o74JGQ6kfD8agCtR1SamgRo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pjZQVM7mEMSbigLE34GwBg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=gilbert%20jones%20of%20welshpool&f=false

Gilbert Jones served as Bailiff and J.P. at Welshpool in 1640 and 1648. His wife was Mary, daughter of Sir Edward Littleton of Henley Hall and Mary Walter. "Mary LITTLETON (daughter of Sir Edward Littleton and sister to Nathaniel Littleton) is sometimes shown as married to Edmund Scarborough. Documentation shows her married to: Gilbert JONES of Welshpool, co. Mont. [Transactions of the Shropshire Archaeological Society, Series 4, Vol. III, Part 2 (1913), pp. 307; The Visitation of Worcestershire, 1634, p. 64] Further proof is shown by an application dated 28 Feb 1633/34 by Mary Jones for a grant of administration dbn on the estate of her father Sir Edward Littleton of Henley, Salop {PCC Act Books}":
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SCARBOROUGH/2001-03/0984494330

Mary Jones, wife of Gov. Thomas Lloyd, descends from Henry IV as follows,

Henry IV had a son,
1) Humphrey of Lancaster, 1st Duke of Gloucester (1390-1447) m. 2) Eleanor Cobham (c.1400-1452), and had
2) Antigone of Lancaster, illegit. (b. c.1420) m. 1) Henry Gray, 2nd Count of Tancarville (1420-1450, descended from Edward I), and had
3) Elizabeth Gray (c.1439-aft.1495) m. Sir Roger Kynaston of Hordley (d. 1495), and had
4) Anne Kynaston m. Roger Thornes of Shelvock (by1469-1531, descended from Edwardv I), and had
5) John Thornes of Shelvock m. Elizabeth Astley, and had
6) Richard Thornes of Condover m. Margaret Cla, and had
7) Alice Thornes (c.1530-1597) m. Rev. John Littleton of Spetchley (d. 1560), and had
8) Sir Edward Littleton of Henley Hall (1551-1622) m. Mary Walter (1567-1633, descended from Edward I), and had
9) Mary Littleton m. Gilbert Jones of Welshpool (d. aft. 1648), and had
10) Mary Jones (d. 1683) m. 1665, Thomas Lloyd, later Governor of Pennsylvania

Gilbert Jones is mentioned in the will, dated 15 October 1616, proved 11 January 1617, of his father Gilbert Jones of Welshpool, who appoints "My loving friend" Edward Littleton as one of his overseers:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=Ddk4AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA170&dq=Will+of+Gilbert+Jones,+of+the+town+of+Pool&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uUlQVIKmL7CaigK55IGIDA&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Will%20of%20Gilbert%20Jones%2C%20of%20the%20town%20of%20Pool&f=false

Per the following website, the elder Gilbert Jones (d. 1616/7), paternal grandfather of Mary Jones, wife of Gov. Thomas Lloyd, descends from Edward I thru his mother Gainor Penrhyn, thru Salway/Vaughan/Cornewall of Burford & Corbet of Moreton Corbet, but this needs further research:
https://histfam.familysearch.org//pedigree.php?personID=I214993&tree=EuropeRoyalNobleHous&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=8

Mary Jones and Gov. Thomas Lloyd are ancestors of the late American actor Christopher Reeve. See Leo's database Genealogics for the descent:
http://www.genealogics.org/descendtext.php?personID=I00434867&tree=LEO&display=block&generations=12

Cheers, -----Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 7:06:35 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> In Plantagenet Ancestry 2004 Edition, sub Lloyd, p. 456, it is stated that Thomas Lloyd, the first Governor of Pennsylvania, "He married (1st) 9 Sept. 1665 Mary Jones. They had ten children." In the later 2011 editions, more detail is provided, "He married (1st) 9 Sept. 1665 Mary Jones, daughter of (Col.) roger Jones, of Welshpool, Montgomeryshire, Wales":

Mary Jones actually married Thomas Lloyd per the Quaker style of dating, "9mo. 9, 1665, at the Friends' Meeting in Shropshire, Wales":
http://books.google.ca/books?id=arAfWBsvO1gC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=mary+jones+married+thomas+lloyd&source=bl&ots=Btz6A9PUIO&sig=fiC3Xk-eOK4hleByXSRUPXifU0k&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PARRVMuENJTgoASn6IGYBQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=mary%20jones%20married%20thomas%20lloyd&f=false

Shropshire borders Wales, so it's considered to be on the March of Wales, but it's actually an English, not Welsh, county. However, since 1665 falls into the period of the Julian calendar, "9mo. 9, 1665" doesn't convert to 9 Sept. 1665, but rather to 9 November 1665:
http://ftp.rootsweb.ancestry.com/pub/roots-l/genealog/genealog.quakerc1

Mary Jones Lloyd died November 1683 in Philadelphia (see footnote 12):
http://books.google.ca/books?id=RP-IRN8PDnUC&pg=PA376&dq=mary+jones+married+thomas+lloyd&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IwZRVJ28AdCyogS664LIBA&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=mary%20jones%20married%20thomas%20lloyd&f=false

Cheers, -----Brad

[Douglas Richardson]

My comments are interspersed below. DR

On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 8:06:35 PM UTC-6, Brad Verity wrote:
> In Plantagenet Ancestry 2004 Edition, sub Lloyd, p. 456, it is stated that Thomas Lloyd, the first Governor of Pennsylvania, "He married (1st) 9 Sept. 1665 Mary Jones. They had ten children." In the later 2011 editions, more detail is provided, "He married (1st) 9 Sept. 1665 Mary Jones, daughter of (Col.) roger Jones, of Welshpool, Montgomeryshire, Wales":
> http://books.google.ca/books?id=8JcbV309c5UC&pg=PA432&dq=Mary+Jones+married+Thomas+Lloyd&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MzZQVNb3A6qQigLn8oHoBQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Mary%20Jones%20married%20Thomas%20Lloyd&f=false

If possible, I recommend you use the latest set of books, Royal Ancestry, 5 volume set, published in 2013. Royal Ancestry has 1,000 more pages of material than my book, Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd edition published in 2011. And Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd edition, is easily double the size of Plantagenet Ancestry, 1st edition, published in 2004.

> The identification of the father of Mary Jones is incorrect. Per a notice in 'Notes & Queries' from 1863, "In Burke's Commoners, under 'Lloyd of Dolobran,' Thomas Lloyd is said to have married Mary, daughter of Colonel Roger Jones of Welshpool, Governor of Dublin, temp. James II., who defeated the Marquis of Ormond, &c. This is an error. Mrs. Lloyd's father was certainly Gilbert; and I believe the name of the Colonel Jones who defeated Ormond, to have been neither Gilbert nor Roger, but Michael":
> http://books.google.ca/books?id=0BPX2900dxIC&pg=PA128&dq=gilbert+jones+of+welshpool&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0DxQVP3vLoqrjAKsloDgDg&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=gilbert%20jones%20of%20welshpool&f=false

Mary Jones, 1st wife of the New World immigrant, Thomas Lloyd, Gent., of Pennsylvania is probably the daughter of Gilbert Jones, of Welshpool, Montgomeryshire as you have pointed out. But Gilbert Jones' wife, Mary, is evidently not the same person as Mary Littleton, daughter of Edward Littleton, Knt., of Henley (in Bitterley), Shropshire, Chief Justice of North Wales as you allege below.

> Mary Jones's father was Gilbert Jones of Welshpool. The article on the Lloyd family of Dolobran in 'Dictionary of Welsh Biography' agrees that Mary Jones was the daughter of Gilbert Jones of Welshpool, not Col. Roger Jones:
> http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-LLOY-DOL-1292.html
>
> R. Williams, in a footnote to his article 'Montgomeryshire Nonconformity: Extracts from Gaol Files, with Notes' in 'The Montgomeryshire Collections' Vol. 25 (1891), also concurs, "Thomas Lloyd's wife was Mary, daughter of Gilbert Jones of Welshpool":
> http://books.google.ca/books?id=_9k4AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=gilbert+jones+of+welshpool&source=bl&ots=vSEcR_g045&sig=rws0o74JGQ6kfD8agCtR1SamgRo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pjZQVM7mEMSbigLE34GwBg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=gilbert%20jones%20of%20welshpool&f=false

> Gilbert Jones served as Bailiff and J.P. at Welshpool in 1640 and 1648. His wife was Mary, daughter of Sir Edward Littleton of Henley Hall and Mary Walter. "Mary LITTLETON (daughter of Sir Edward Littleton and sister to Nathaniel Littleton) is sometimes shown as married to Edmund Scarborough. Documentation shows her married to: Gilbert JONES of Welshpool, co. Mont. [Transactions of the Shropshire Archaeological Society, Series 4, Vol. III, Part 2 (1913), pp. 307; The Visitation of Worcestershire, 1634, p. 64] Further proof is shown by an application dated 28 Feb 1633/34 by Mary Jones for a grant of administration dbn on the estate of her father Sir Edward Littleton of Henley, Salop {PCC Act Books}":
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SCARBOROUGH/2001-03/0984494330

I've searched the published Probate Act Books for the Prerogative Court of Canterbury for 1633, 1634, and 1635. There is no mention of any Mary Jones being granted administration on the estate of any Edward Littleton in that source. The Probate Acts for P.C.C. for this period may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE84906

> Mary Jones, wife of Gov. Thomas Lloyd, descends from Henry IV as follows,
>
> Henry IV had a son,
> 1) Humphrey of Lancaster, 1st Duke of Gloucester (1390-1447) m. 2) Eleanor Cobham (c.1400-1452), and had

Some authors have suggested that Eleanor Cobham, the 2nd wife of Humphrey of Lancaster, Duke of Gloucester, might be the mother of his two illegitimate children, Arthur and Antigone. However, to my knowledge no one has advanced the slightest evidence to support this theory.

> 2) Antigone of Lancaster, illegit. (b. c.1420) m. 1) Henry Gray, 2nd Count of Tancarville (1420-1450, descended from Edward I), and had
> 3) Elizabeth Gray (c.1439-aft.1495) m. Sir Roger Kynaston of Hordley (d. 1495), and had
> 4) Anne Kynaston m. Roger Thornes of Shelvock (by1469-1531, descended from Edwardv I), and had
> 5) John Thornes of Shelvock m. Elizabeth Astley, and had
> 6) Richard Thornes of Condover m. Margaret Cla, and had
> 7) Alice Thornes (c.1530-1597) m. Rev. John Littleton of Spetchley (d. 1560), and had
> 8) Sir Edward Littleton of Henley Hall (1551-1622) m. Mary Walter (1567-1633, descended from Edward I), and had
> 9) Mary Littleton m. Gilbert Jones of Welshpool (d. aft. 1648), and had
> 10) Mary Jones (d. 1683) m. 1665, Thomas Lloyd, later Governor of Pennsylvania

Unfortunately the above descent fails at Generation 10. Gilbert Jones, of Welshpool, had a wife, Mary (or Maria), alright. The Welshpool Register shows that Gilbert Jones had six children with baptismal dates of 20 May 1634, 9 August 1636, 8 Nov. 1640, 20 Nov. 1641, 3 March 1643/4, 28 Dec. 1645. For the last four of these "Maria his wife" is specifically mentioned. The Welshpool Register lists the burial of "Maria wife of Gilbert Jones" on 25 Nov. 1649. See the following weblink:

http://espl-genealogy.org/MilesFiles/site/p627.htm

However, Mary (or Maria), wife of Gilbert Jones, of Welshpool, who was buried in 1649 is clearly not the same person as Mary Littleton, daughter of Edward Littleton, Knt. We can be certain of that as Mary (Littleton) Jones was living as 1653, and probably as late as 1657.

Here is the evidence. The will of Sir Edward Littleton (her brother) which was written 5th August 1639 refers to his sister Jones. In the will of William Littleton of The Moore, Shropshire (another brother) which was written 28th May 1653 he also refers to his sister Jones. In the Will of John Littleton, D.D. (another brother) which was written 13th December 1657 he refers to his sister, Mary Newport.

The above information was provided by Trevor T. Littleton, and can be found on the following weblink:

http://espl-genealogy.org/MilesFiles/site/p627.htm

> Per the following website, the elder Gilbert Jones (d. 1616/7), paternal grandfather of Mary Jones, wife of Gov. Thomas Lloyd, descends from Edward I thru his mother Gainor Penrhyn, thru Salway/Vaughan/Cornewall of Burford & Corbet of Moreton Corbet, but this needs further research:
> https://histfam.familysearch.org//pedigree.php?personID=I214993&tree=EuropeRoyalNobleHous&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=8

This 2nd descent might well be correct, but it is based almost entirely on secondary sources. Red flag. As we saw with the alleged royal descent of Margaret (Fleming) Bowen through Elizabeth Mathew, 2nd wife of William ap Jenkin, such descents are sometimes flawed, even though you can find them quoted in secondary sources or online databases. As a matter of course, all Welsh descents need to be thoroughly vetted.

Even if the 2nd descent fails, there appears to be another royal descent from King John for the immigrant, Thomas Lloyd, Gent., of Pennsylvania. This new descent comes through Thomas Lloyd's paternal grandfather, Thomas Stanley, Esq., of Knockin, Shropshire, whose ancestral line from Elizabeth Cobham (descendant of King John), 1st wife of Sir Roger Kynaston, is presented at the following weblink:

https://histfam.familysearch.org//pedigree.php?personID=I125373&tree=Welsh&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=8

As with all such pedigrees, this descent needed to be vetted, but it is probably correct. For Elizabeth (Cobham) Kynaston's extended royal and noble ancestry, please see my book, Royal Ancestry, published in 2013.

Lastly, I might mention that the various heraldic quarterings of the immigrant's parents, Charles Lloyd, Esq., and his wife, Elizabeth Stanley, can be found in Collections Historical & Archaeological rel. to Montgomeryshire 9 (1876): 333-344. The author provides the following information:

"There was previous to the year 1780 an oak panel over the fireplace of the old hall at Dolobran, upon which was emblazoned the shield of Charles Lloyd of fifteen quarterings, impaling the Stanley arms with six quarterings in right of his wife, Elizabeth Stanley. This panel was removed by James Lloyd before he sold Dolobran Hall, and presented to his relative Charles Lloyd, from whom it came to the grandson of the latter, James Farmer Lloyd, of London, who nows owns it. We are enabled, by the kindness of Mr. Henry Lloyd, to give, as an illustration, an engraving of the shield." END OF QUOTE.

The author provides a full illustration of the elaborate shield following page 338, at the following weblink:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433075886154;view=1up;seq=422

The shield is quite beautiful.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 12:49:45 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> My comments are interspersed below. DR

> > Per the following website, the elder Gilbert Jones (d. 1616/7), paternal grandfather of Mary Jones, wife of Gov. Thomas Lloyd, descends from Edward I thru his mother Gainor Penrhyn, thru Salway/Vaughan/Cornewall of Burford & Corbet of Moreton Corbet, but this needs further research:
> > https://histfam.familysearch.org//pedigree.php?personID=I214993&tree=EuropeRoyalNobleHous&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=8
>
> This 2nd descent might well be correct, but it is based almost entirely on secondary sources. Red flag. As we saw with the alleged royal descent of Margaret (Fleming) Bowen through Elizabeth Mathew, 2nd wife of William ap Jenkin, such descents are sometimes flawed, even though you can find them quoted in secondary sources or online databases. As a matter of course, all Welsh descents need to be thoroughly vetted.
>
>

> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

FWIW Gary Boyd Roberts apparently considers the line cited by Brad above from Edward I to Mary Jones (wife of Thomas Lloyd) to be valid, as he has consistently included it in his RD500 and RD600 volumes (although, interestingly, he does not give a surname to Mary the wife of Gilbert Jones and mother of Mary Jones). Perhaps you should mention to GBR that you feel that the line "needs to be thoroughly vetted". :-)

[Brad Verity]

On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 12:49:45 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:

> If possible, I recommend you use the latest set of books, Royal Ancestry, 5 volume set, published in 2013. Royal Ancestry has 1,000 more pages of material than my book, Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd edition published in 2011. And Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd edition, is easily double the size of Plantagenet Ancestry, 1st edition, published in 2004.

As I've explained before, I don't have access to your latest set of books. They aren't held by any library here in Vancouver. And I don't have the inclination to purchase them.

> Mary Jones, 1st wife of the New World immigrant, Thomas Lloyd, Gent., of Pennsylvania is probably the daughter of Gilbert Jones, of Welshpool, Montgomeryshire as you have pointed out. But Gilbert Jones' wife, Mary, is evidently not the same person as Mary Littleton, daughter of Edward Littleton, Knt., of Henley (in Bitterley), Shropshire, Chief Justice of North Wales as you allege below.

But in both your 2004 and 2011 editions of Plantagenet Ancestry, sub Littleton, you assign to Sir Edward Littleton and his wife Mary Walter a daughter "Mary (wife of Gilbert Jones)":
http://books.google.ca/books?id=kjme027UeagC&pg=RA1-PA416&dq=Gilbert+Jones+married+Littleton&hl=en&sa=X&ei=goVRVNeNH426ogSb5oGYBQ&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Gilbert%20Jones%20married%20Littleton&f=false

What is your source for this Mary Littleton and her husband?

> I've searched the published Probate Act Books for the Prerogative Court of Canterbury for 1633, 1634, and 1635. There is no mention of any Mary Jones being granted administration on the estate of any Edward Littleton in that source. The Probate Acts for P.C.C. for this period may be viewed at the following weblink:
> https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE84906

The online posting that I linked to states three pieces of evidence for Sir Edward Littleton's daughter Mary as wife of Gilbert Jones of Welshpool,
1. "Transactions of the Shropshire Archaeological Society, Series 4, Vol. III, Part 2 (1913), pp. 307"
2. "The Visitation of Worcestershire, 1634, p. 64"
3. "Further proof is shown by an application dated 28 Feb 1633/34 by Mary Jones for a grant of administration dbn on the estate of her father Sir Edward Littleton of Henley, Salop {PCC Act Books}"

I don't have access to the first two sources. But I presume that the second source is a pedigree of the Littleton family taken by a herald in 1634. Both of your 2004 and 2011 editions of Plantagenet Ancestry, sub Sir Edward Littleton, cite as one of the sources, "Owen 'Vis. of Worcestershire 1634' (H.S.P. 90) (1938): 64 (Littleton pedigree...)".

Can you (or someone else with access to the book) share what the pedigree states about Sir Edward Littleton's daughter Mary? This pedigree was taken the year following the death of Mary Walter Littleton, who was buried at St Lawrence Church, Ludlow, Shropshire on 23 October 1633. Per source #3 above, Mary Jones applied for a grant of administration on the estate of her father 28 Feb 1633/4, four months after the death of her widowed mother. The online website you linked to in your post states, "Mary was named as administrator of an estate on 28 February 1634 at England. It was on this date that she, as Mary Jones, took over administration of her father Sir Edward Littleton of Henley, Salop, estate after her mother's death" and cites "Virginia M. Meyer & John Frederick Dorman, Adventurers of Purse and Person, Virginia, 1607-1624/5, 3rd Edition, p. 542 (Scarburgh Family, footnote No. 25)" as its source.

'Adventurers of Purse and Person' is another source that is unavailable to me here in Vancouver, but it is available to you in Salt Lake City, so you may wish to consult it for further details, since as you say, you cannot locate an entry for Mary Jones or Sir Edward Littleton in the PCC book you linked to above.

> Some authors have suggested that Eleanor Cobham, the 2nd wife of Humphrey of Lancaster, Duke of Gloucester, might be the mother of his two illegitimate children, Arthur and Antigone. However, to my knowledge no one has advanced the slightest evidence to support this theory.

You are correct here, and though I have a note to that effect in my database, I should qualify in my posts to the newsgroup that Antigone of Lancaster was daughter of Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester *possibly* by his 2nd wife Eleanor Cobham.

> > 8) Sir Edward Littleton of Henley Hall (1551-1622) m. Mary Walter (1567-1633, descended from Edward I), and had
> > 9) Mary Littleton m. Gilbert Jones of Welshpool (d. aft. 1648), and had
> > 10) Mary Jones (d. 1683) m. 1665, Thomas Lloyd, later Governor of Pennsylvania
>
> Unfortunately the above descent fails at Generation 10. Gilbert Jones, of Welshpool, had a wife, Mary (or Maria), alright. The Welshpool Register shows that Gilbert Jones had six children with baptismal dates of 20 May 1634, 9 August 1636, 8 Nov. 1640, 20 Nov. 1641, 3 March 1643/4, 28 Dec. 1645. For the last four of these "Maria his wife" is specifically mentioned. The Welshpool Register lists the burial of "Maria wife of Gilbert Jones" on 25 Nov. 1649. See the following weblink:
> http://espl-genealogy.org/MilesFiles/site/p627.htm

Just to be clear, that weblink is to an online genealogy database, not to an online register of Welshpool itself. The specific source for these baptism and burial dates is "1993 manuscript by Mary Ross Brown in the St. Louis County Library 'Mary Scarburgh Was Not A Littleton' provided by Robert Bernheim, 2 Feb 2004".
It would be nice to know the first names of the six children of Gilbert Jones that were baptized at Welshpool, but I'm nowhere near St Louis County to consult Ms. Brown's manuscript to see if she transcribed the names in addition to the dates. However, she appears to have overlooked one, as there is an entry transcribed in the article 'Welshpool registers: some extracts from the old registers of St Mary's Church' by Mary Newill Owen in 'Collections, Historical & Archaeological Relating to Montgomeryshire' Volume 36 (1912), p. 4:
"Margarita filia Gilberti Jones, balivi huius Villae et Mariae uxoris Octavo Octobris, 1639". The note to this entry describes Gilbert Jones as "gentleman, hereditary burgess and bailiff of the town, 1639, resided at Lylleshall House, now in the occupation of Mr. Rees James in Broad Street. He was chief bailiff in 1658, and defendant in the action concerning Pool Quay Weir, December 8th, 1653, descended from Cynvelin ap Dolphin":
http://welshjournals.llgc.org.uk/browse/listarticles/llgc-id:1238716/llgc-id:1240100

> However, Mary (or Maria), wife of Gilbert Jones, of Welshpool, who was buried in 1649 is clearly not the same person as Mary Littleton, daughter of Edward Littleton, Knt. We can be certain of that as Mary (Littleton) Jones was living as 1653, and probably as late as 1657.
> Here is the evidence. The will of Sir Edward Littleton (her brother) which was written 5th August 1639 refers to his sister Jones. In the will of William Littleton of The Moore, Shropshire (another brother) which was written 28th May 1653 he also refers to his sister Jones. In the Will of John Littleton, D.D. (another brother) which was written 13th December 1657 he refers to his sister, Mary Newport.
> The above information was provided by Trevor T. Littleton, and can be found on the following weblink:
> http://espl-genealogy.org/MilesFiles/site/p627.htm

This of course is the same online genealogy database that provides the info on the Welshpool baptism & burial dates. It accepts Mary Littleton as the wife of Gilbert Jones, so why are you so certain as to say "is clearly not the same person as Mary Littleton" and "we can be certain of that".

Let's deal first with John Littleton's will of 13 December 1657, where he refers to his sister Mary Newport. The same website you linked to offers an explanation, "In the Will of John Littleton D.D. (another brother) which was written 13th December 1657 he refers to his sister, Mary Newport. However, this might have been his sister-in-law as his wife was Jane Newport. (Provided by Trevor T. Littleton on June 25, 2002)."

That leaves us the 1653 will of William Littleton. It is available thru Ancestry.com's P.C.C. database. It was dated 28 May 1653, with a codicil dated 4 June 1653, a second codicil dated 10 June 1653, and proved on 30 July 1653. The relevant passage is,
"Item I settle[?] upon Serjeant{? - the script is difficult to make out here] Littleton my brother one annuity or rent charge of ten pounds per annum during his life and another rent charge of ten pounds upon Doctor James Littleton during his life and another rent charge of ten pounds per annum upon Sampson[?] Eyton and ten pounds upon my sister Jones during her life, provided that if my said two brothers Timothy and James or either of them shall make default[? - the rest is hard to make out]".

William Littleton was married to Judith Eyton, a widow. He mentions his wife a few times in his will, as well as "her daughter Frances Eyton", to whom he leaves 300 pounds for her marriage, with the consent of her brother Thomas Eyton.

Jones, I believe, is the most common surname in Wales. Given the evidence that Gilbert Jones's wife Mary was buried in 1649, it's possible William Littleton's "sister Jones" who was granted a 10 pound annuity for her life was related to him thru his wife rather than thru blood. And since Gilbert Jones was apparently still alive in 1653, it's also possible (though unlikely) that William's "sister Jones" was a second wife of his brother-in-law Gilbert.

Later in his will, William states, "Item I give unto my Lady Littleton the wife of Sir Thomas Littleton the sum of five pounds to buy her a ring and to my sister Kettleby the like sum and to my sister Osbaldeston the like sum".

In his first codicil, William Littleton bequeathes, "Item I give unto Mary Jones the daughter of Edward Jones my goddaughter the sum of five pounds".

An "Edward Jones son and heir of Gilbert Jones of Grays Inn, Esq." was admitted to Gray's Inn on 18 Feb. 1641/42, as was "Gilbert Jones second son of Gilbert Jones of Grays Inn, Esq." On 29 Jan. 1616/17 "Gilbert Jones son of Gilbert Jones of Poole Co. Mont. Esq." was admitted to Gray's Inn. These entries are recorded in the article 'Montgomeryshire Extracts From the Register of Admissions to Grays Inn 1521-1889' by J.W. Davies in 'Montgomeryshire Collections' Volume 61 (1969-70), p. 165:
http://welshjournals.llgc.org.uk/browse/listarticles/llgc-id:1264487/llgc-id:1267535

The Gilbert Jones admitted to Gray's Inn in 1617 was Gilbert Jones of Welshpool, father of Mary Jones, first wife of Gov. Thomas Lloyd. That he named his son and heir 'Edward', a name not previously used by the Joneses of Welshpool, makes sense if the son's grandfather was Sir Edward Littleton. If this Edward Jones of Gray's Inn was the same Edward Jones whose daughter Mary was the goddaughter of William Littleton (d. 1653), this is further evidence of a connection between the two families.

At any rate, I'm not sure you can so easily write off the possibility of Mary Littleton as wife of Gilbert Jones of Welshpool.

Cheers, -----Brad

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 7:13:31 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 12:49:45 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> > If possible, I recommend you use the latest set of books, Royal Ancestry, 5 volume set, published in 2013. Royal Ancestry has 1,000 more pages of material than my book, Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd edition published in 2011. And Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd edition, is easily double the size of Plantagenet Ancestry, 1st edition, published in 2004.
>
> As I've explained before, I don't have access to your latest set of books. They aren't held by any library here in Vancouver. And I don't have the inclination to purchase them.
>
> > Mary Jones, 1st wife of the New World immigrant, Thomas Lloyd, Gent., of Pennsylvania is probably the daughter of Gilbert Jones, of Welshpool, Montgomeryshire as you have pointed out. But Gilbert Jones' wife, Mary, is evidently not the same person as Mary Littleton, daughter of Edward Littleton, Knt., of Henley (in Bitterley), Shropshire, Chief Justice of North Wales as you allege below.
>
> But in both your 2004 and 2011 editions of Plantagenet Ancestry, sub Littleton, you assign to Sir Edward Littleton and his wife Mary Walter a daughter "Mary (wife of Gilbert Jones)":
> http://books.google.ca/books?id=kjme027UeagC&pg=RA1-PA416&dq=Gilbert+Jones+married+Littleton&hl=en&sa=X&ei=goVRVNeNH426ogSb5oGYBQ&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Gilbert%20Jones%20married%20Littleton&f=false
>
> What is your source for this Mary Littleton and her husband?
>
> > I've searched the published Probate Act Books for the Prerogative Court of Canterbury for 1633, 1634, and 1635. There is no mention of any Mary Jones being granted administration on the estate of any Edward Littleton in that source. The Probate Acts for P.C.C. for this period may be viewed at the following weblink:
> > https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE84906
>
> The online posting that I linked to states three pieces of evidence for Sir Edward Littleton's daughter Mary as wife of Gilbert Jones of Welshpool,
> 1. "Transactions of the Shropshire Archaeological Society, Series 4, Vol. III, Part 2 (1913), pp. 307"
> 2. "The Visitation of Worcestershire, 1634, p. 64"
> 3. "Further proof is shown by an application dated 28 Feb 1633/34 by Mary Jones for a grant of administration dbn on the estate of her father Sir Edward Littleton of Henley, Salop {PCC Act Books}"
>
> I don't have access to the first two sources. But I presume that the second source is a pedigree of the Littleton family taken by a herald in 1634. Both of your 2004 and 2011 editions of Plantagenet Ancestry, sub Sir Edward Littleton, cite as one of the sources, "Owen 'Vis. of Worcestershire 1634' (H.S.P. 90) (1938): 64 (Littleton pedigree...)".
>
> Can you (or someone else with access to the book) share what the pedigree states about Sir Edward Littleton's daughter Mary? This pedigree was taken the year following the death of Mary Walter Littleton, who was buried at St Lawrence Church, Ludlow, Shropshire on 23 October 1633. Per source #3 above, Mary Jones applied for a grant of administration on the estate of her father 28 Feb 1633/4, four months after the death of her widowed mother. The online website you linked to in your post states, "Mary was named as administrator of an estate on 28 February 1634 at England. It was on this date that she, as Mary Jones, took over administration of her father Sir Edward Littleton of Henley, Salop, estate after her mother's death" and cites "Virginia M. Meyer & John Frederick Dorman, Adventurers of Purse and Person, Virginia, 1607-1624/5, 3rd Edition, p. 542 (Scarburgh Family, footnote No. 25)" as its source.

> Cheers, -----Brad

The 1634 Visitation of Worcestershire is vol. 90 of the Harleian Society's visitation series and is among the sources cited in at least the 2004 edition of PA for the family of Sir Edward Littleton, Chief Justice of North Wales, and his wife Mary Walter. As such, it is likely the source for DR's statement then regarding the husband of their daughter Mary, as it lists among their children "Mary, wife of Gilbert Jones, son of Gilbert Jones of Welshpool, co. Mont." - exactly the person we're talking about.

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 7:13:31 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:

> The online posting that I linked to states three pieces of evidence for Sir Edward Littleton's daughter Mary as wife of Gilbert Jones of Welshpool,
> 1. "Transactions of the Shropshire Archaeological Society, Series 4, Vol. III, Part 2 (1913), pp. 307"
> 2. "The Visitation of Worcestershire, 1634, p. 64"
> 3. "Further proof is shown by an application dated 28 Feb 1633/34 by Mary Jones for a grant of administration dbn on the estate of her father Sir Edward Littleton of Henley, Salop {PCC Act Books}"
>
> I don't have access to the first two sources.
>

The first item listed above is available online here:
https://archive.org/details/transactionsofsh43shro

Like the 1634 Visitation of Worcestershire, the Littleton pedigree it contains is among the sources cited for the family of Sir Edward Littleton and his wife Mary Walter in the 2004 edition of PA. And, like the visitation, it includes among that couple's children a daughter "Mary, married Gilbert Jones, Barrister at Law, son of Gilbert Jones of Welshpool".

[Douglas Richardson]

On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:13:31 PM UTC-6, Brad Verity wrote:

> That leaves us the 1653 will of William Littleton. It is available thru <Ancestry.com's P.C.C. database. It was dated 28 May 1653, with a codicil dated <4 June 1653, a second codicil dated 10 June 1653, and proved on 30 July 1653. <The relevant passage is: "Item I settle[?] .... ten pounds upon my sister <Jones during her life ..."

>
> Jones, I believe, is the most common surname in Wales. Given the evidence >that Gilbert Jones's wife Mary was buried in 1649, it's possible William >Littleton's "sister Jones" who was granted a 10 pound annuity for her life was >related to him thru his wife rather than thru blood.

If Mary, wife of Gilbert Jones, of Welshpool was really a Littleton, possibly there's another explanation, such as two Gilbert Jones, both with a wife, Mary. That could explain why you have Mary, wife of Gilbert Jones, buried at Welshpool in 1649, but you have William Littleton's sister Jones still alive in 1653. There's also the possibibility that someone failed to transcribe the burial date of Mary Jones at Welshpool correctly. That's been known to happen.

More research needs to be in order. Good luck in your sleuthing.

[leslie...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 11:49:45 AM UTC-8, Douglas Richardson wrote:


> This 2nd descent might well be correct, but it is based almost entirely on secondary sources. Red flag. As we saw with the alleged royal descent of Margaret (Fleming) Bowen through Elizabeth Mathew, 2nd wife of William ap Jenkin, such descents are sometimes flawed, even though you can find them quoted in secondary sources or online databases. As a matter of course, all Welsh descents need to be thoroughly vetted.
>

Here's an example of a Welsh descent with the
'need to be thoroughly vetted'.

Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd edition (2011), has the ancestry of
Rowland Ellis, who emigrated from Merionethshire
to Pennsylvania in 1697:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=8JcbV309c5UC&pg=RA1-PA110&dq=elsbeth+ferch+dafydd+llwyd+trawvynydd&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NtVRVPaVFZWzyATUyILIAw&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=elsbeth%20ferch%20dafydd%20llwyd%20trawvynydd&f=false

Generations 16, 17 and 18 are based solely on Thomas Allen Glenn's,
Merion in the Welsh Tract, which is an unreliable publication that
has often been proved to be wrong.

Leslie

[Matt A]

Leslie,

PA17 might be of assistance for these people:

http://books.google.com/books?ei=HhRSVMLCLNTesATIk4KwBg&id=AUtlAAAAMAAJ&dq=Plantagenet+Ancestry+of+Seventeenth-century+Colonists%3A&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22Lewys+ap+John%22

-Matt Ahlgren

[Brad Verity]

On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:56:53 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The 1634 Visitation of Worcestershire is vol. 90 of the Harleian Society's visitation series and is among the sources cited in at least the 2004 edition of PA for the family of Sir Edward Littleton, Chief Justice of North Wales, and his wife Mary Walter. As such, it is likely the source for DR's statement then regarding the husband of their daughter Mary, as it lists among their children "Mary, wife of Gilbert Jones, son of Gilbert Jones of Welshpool, co. Mont." - exactly the person we're talking about.

John,

Thank you for checking the 1634 Littleton Visitation pedigree. It's very solid evidence that Gilbert Jones of Welshpool's wife 'Mariae' in the Welshpool register baptism & burial entries was Mary, daughter of Sir Edward Littleton & Mary Walter.

On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 9:22:08 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The first item listed above is available online here:
> https://archive.org/details/transactionsofsh43shro
> Like the 1634 Visitation of Worcestershire, the Littleton pedigree it contains is among the sources cited for the family of Sir Edward Littleton and his wife Mary Walter in the 2004 edition of PA. And, like the visitation, it includes among that couple's children a daughter "Mary, married Gilbert Jones, Barrister at Law, son of Gilbert Jones of Welshpool".

Thank you for the link to the article, which I will read shortly.

On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 9:56:42 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> If Mary, wife of Gilbert Jones, of Welshpool was really a Littleton, possibly there's another explanation, such as two Gilbert Jones, both with a wife, Mary. That could explain why you have Mary, wife of Gilbert Jones, buried at Welshpool in 1649, but you have William Littleton's sister Jones still alive in 1653.

I suppose it's always possible that there were two Gilbert Jones in Welshpool, each married to a woman named Mary, but it seems highly unlikely. If that were the case, I would think the Welshpool Parish Register would have distinguished them in the entries, in order to make clear which Gilbert Jones was being referred to.

> There's also the possibibility that someone failed to transcribe the burial date of Mary Jones at Welshpool correctly. That's been known to happen.

Yes, and would easily solve the discrepancy of "sister Jones" in the 1653 will of William Littleton, if so. But if the 1649 date of Mary Littleton Jones's burial is correct, "sister Jones" in 1653 has to refer to a completely different lady.

> More research needs to be in order. Good luck in your sleuthing.

Thanks, I'll start with the article John linked to.

Cheers, ----Brad

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

What's referred to here as "PA17" is the 2nd Faris edition of "Plantagenet Ancestry", published in 1999, which is of course the basis for all the subsequent Richardson books - which have often simply lifted passages and reference verbatim from the Faris work.

That's essentially the case with the indicated generations in the 2011 MCA, which as basically identical to Faris's work - with the Glenn work being the sole source for the 3 generations in question. The only difference is that Faris did a better job of citing Glenn by referencing the specific pages in Glenn relevant to each individual, whereas Richardson took the easy (and sloppy) way out and cited the same whole chapter of Glenn for each of the individuals in the pedigree.

It's hard to see how DR can assert that "all Welsh descents need to be thoroughly vetted" when he obviously failed to do so on this pedigree and simply accepted Faris's reliance on Glenn's work. Perhaps he's unaware of the reputation of Glenn's work....

[Brad Verity]

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 3:24:36 PM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Per the register of Gray's Inn, LITTLETON JONES, third son of Gilbert Jones, Esq., was admitted in Feb. 1641/2, along with his two older brothers:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=8n0_AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA235&dq=%22gilbert+jones%22+lyttleton&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QLlSVNeGFoWbgwST5IK4Bw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22gilbert%20jones%22%20lyttleton&f=false

Thanks, John! That seals the identity of Gilbert Jones of Welshpool's wife Mary as Mary, daughter of Sir Edward Littleton.

Either her Welshpool burial date of 25 Nov. 1649 was mis-transcribed, or "sister Jones" in the 1653 will of her brother William Littleton was an entirely different lady.

Cheers, ----Brad

[Matt A]

John,

Thanks for clarifying the relationship of the research. Soon after I posted, I looked at the link again and suspected there was at the least a concordance of research behind the treatments of this family in those two works.

-Matt A

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

I probably should know the answer to this, but it's escaping me at the moment.

What was the approximate age at which young men were admitted to Gray's Inn in this time period? I ask because an earlier post in this thread gave the children of Gilbert Jones and Mary Littleton baptismal dates between May 1634 and Dec 1645 - without identifying the specific children for each baptismal date. If the three sons of Gilbert Jones (himself admitted to Gray's Inn in 1617) were all admitted in Feb 1641/2, they would have been VERY young (and Gilbert himself was probably also admitted an an early age). Is this to be expected - or is something wrong here?

[Brad Verity]

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 4:40:37 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:

> Thanks, John! That seals the identity of Gilbert Jones of Welshpool's wife Mary as Mary, daughter of Sir Edward Littleton.

Ancestry.com has a database of U.S., Quaker Meeting Records, 1681-1935. Following is an entry from it that proves Mary, first wife of Gov. Thomas Lloyd was a daughter of Gilbert Jones of Welshpool:
"Han. Hill - died 25: 12mo 1726/7 ... Hannah Hill. This is the testimony of the monthly meeting of Philadelphia concerning her, viz. 'Our worthy and much esteemed friend Hannah Hill wife of Richard Hill, and daughter of Thomas Lloyd formerly Governor of this province, by Mary the daughter of Gilbert Jones of Welchpoole, was born in Montgomeryshire North Wales at the seat of her ancestors called Delobron, the 21st of 7mo: 1666. She was a woman highly favoured of the Lord, possessed many excellent christian virtues, as well'. ... The following testimonies are from the same meeting. 'Richard Hill an then[? - word is hard to make out] departed this Life the 4th of the 7th mo: 1729 in the 64th year of his age, was remarkably serviceable amongst us in various public stations & died in good esteem'."

Cheers, -----Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:51:45 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I probably should know the answer to this, but it's escaping me at the moment.
> What was the approximate age at which young men were admitted to Gray's Inn in this time period? I ask because an earlier post in this thread gave the children of Gilbert Jones and Mary Littleton baptismal dates between May 1634 and Dec 1645 - without identifying the specific children for each baptismal date. If the three sons of Gilbert Jones (himself admitted to Gray's Inn in 1617) were all admitted in Feb 1641/2, they would have been VERY young (and Gilbert himself was probably also admitted an an early age). Is this to be expected - or is something wrong here?

Dear John,

Edward Jones, eldest son and heir of Gilbert Jones, appears to have been born 1621. From 'Alumni Oxonienses 1500-1714':
"Jones, Edward s. Gilbert, of Poole, co. Montgom., gent. Jesus Coll., matric. 11 Dec., 1635, aged 14; student of Gray's Inn 1635":
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=117069

I can't find a record that Edward's younger brothers Gilbert Jones or Littleton Jones attended Oxford.

On Friday, October 31, 2014 10:24:19 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> Ancestry.com has a database of U.S., Quaker Meeting Records, 1681-1935. Following is an entry from it that proves Mary, first wife of Gov. Thomas Lloyd was a daughter of Gilbert Jones of Welshpool:
> "Han. Hill - died 25: 12mo 1726/7 ... Hannah Hill. This is the testimony of the monthly meeting of Philadelphia concerning her, viz.

Hannah Hill's obit has also been printed in full, here (pp. 70-73):
https://archive.org/stream/collectionofmemo00soci#page/70/mode/2up

Cheers, -----Brad

[Brad Verity]

> On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 12:49:45 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> > Unfortunately the above descent fails at Generation 10. Gilbert Jones, of Welshpool, had a wife, Mary (or Maria), alright. The Welshpool Register shows that Gilbert Jones had six children with baptismal dates of 20 May 1634, 9 August 1636, 8 Nov. 1640, 20 Nov. 1641, 3 March 1643/4, 28 Dec. 1645. For the last four of these "Maria his wife" is specifically mentioned. The Welshpool Register lists the burial of "Maria wife of Gilbert Jones" on 25 Nov. 1649. See the following weblink:
> > http://espl-genealogy.org/MilesFiles/site/p627.htm

On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 7:13:31 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> Just to be clear, that weblink is to an online genealogy database, not to an online register of Welshpool itself. The specific source for these baptism and burial dates is "1993 manuscript by Mary Ross Brown in the St. Louis County Library 'Mary Scarburgh Was Not A Littleton' provided by Robert Bernheim, 2 Feb 2004".
> It would be nice to know the first names of the six children of Gilbert Jones that were baptized at Welshpool, but I'm nowhere near St Louis County to consult Ms. Brown's manuscript to see if she transcribed the names in addition to the dates.

And thanks to online databases, I don't have to travel to St Louis County. FamilySearch.org has the entries from the Welshpool Register. Not the full entries, unfortunately (apparently you have to go to findmypast.co.uk, a subscription site, for those), but it does provide name and date.

So we have the following names corresponding to the dates provided above by Mary Ross Brown in her 1993 manuscript. She states these are children of Gilbert Jones, the last four by his wife Mary.

20 May 1634 - no corresponding entry under surname 'Jones' in database

9 August 1636 - Jones [no first name]
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC1G-PWD

8 November 1640 - no corresponding entry, but there is an entry for Margarita Jones on 8 Nov 1639, and we know from the article 'Welshpool registers: some extracts from the old registers of St Mary's Church' by Mary Newill Owen in 'Collections, Historical & Archaeological Relating to Montgomeryshire' Volume 36 (1912), p. 4: "Margarita filia Gilberti Jones, balivi huius Villae et Mariae uxoris Octavo Octobris, 1639", so 1640 was an error made by Mary Ross Brown, and the year should be 1639
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC1G-5SZ

20 November 1641 - no corresponding entry under surname 'Jones' in database

3 March 1643/4 - Maria Jones
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC1G-RMG

28 December 1645 - Roger Jones
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC1G-RZZ

As Mary Jones married Thomas Lloyd in November 1665, and had her first child Hannah Lloyd in September 1666, Maria Jones, daughter of Gilbert and Maria Jones, baptized at Welshpool on 3 March 1643/4 is likely her baptism entry, as the chronology works well.

Cheers, ----Brad

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

On Friday, October 31, 2014 11:00:24 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:51:45 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > I probably should know the answer to this, but it's escaping me at the moment.
> > What was the approximate age at which young men were admitted to Gray's Inn in this time period? I ask because an earlier post in this thread gave the children of Gilbert Jones and Mary Littleton baptismal dates between May 1634 and Dec 1645 - without identifying the specific children for each baptismal date. If the three sons of Gilbert Jones (himself admitted to Gray's Inn in 1617) were all admitted in Feb 1641/2, they would have been VERY young (and Gilbert himself was probably also admitted an an early age). Is this to be expected - or is something wrong here?
>
> Dear John,
>
> Edward Jones, eldest son and heir of Gilbert Jones, appears to have been born 1621. From 'Alumni Oxonienses 1500-1714':
> "Jones, Edward s. Gilbert, of Poole, co. Montgom., gent. Jesus Coll., matric. 11 Dec., 1635, aged 14; student of Gray's Inn 1635":
> http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=117069
>
> I can't find a record that Edward's younger brothers Gilbert Jones or Littleton Jones attended Oxford.
>

Thanks for this. Based on your next post as well, it appears that the extract from the Welshpool registers on the website referenced by DR is incomplete in its identification of the children of Gilbert Jones and Mary Littleton. It also may suggest that Mary Littleton was not the youngest child (or near the youngest) of Sir Edward Littleton and Mary Walter, as some of the peidgrees of the Littleton family seem to indicate.

[Jan Wolfe]

On Friday, October 31, 2014 2:51:00 PM UTC-4, Brad Verity wrote:
...

>
> So we have the following names corresponding to the dates provided above by Mary Ross Brown in her 1993 manuscript. She states these are children of Gilbert Jones, the last four by his wife Mary.
>
> 20 May 1634 - no corresponding entry under surname 'Jones' in database
>
> 9 August 1636 - Jones [no first name]
> https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC1G-PWD
>
> 8 November 1640 - no corresponding entry, but there is an entry for Margarita Jones on 8 Nov 1639, and we know from the article 'Welshpool registers: some extracts from the old registers of St Mary's Church' by Mary Newill Owen in 'Collections, Historical & Archaeological Relating to Montgomeryshire' Volume 36 (1912), p. 4: "Margarita filia Gilberti Jones, balivi huius Villae et Mariae uxoris Octavo Octobris, 1639", so 1640 was an error made by Mary Ross Brown, and the year should be 1639
> https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC1G-5SZ
>
> 20 November 1641 - no corresponding entry under surname 'Jones' in database
>
> 3 March 1643/4 - Maria Jones
> https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC1G-RMG
>
> 28 December 1645 - Roger Jones
> https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC1G-RZZ
>
> As Mary Jones married Thomas Lloyd in November 1665, and had her first child Hannah Lloyd in September 1666, Maria Jones, daughter of Gilbert and Maria Jones, baptized at Welshpool on 3 March 1643/4 is likely her baptism entry, as the chronology works well.
>
> Cheers, ----Brad

The Family Search transcribers missed or misread some entries. In the images at findmypast, the entry for 29 (not, I think, 20) May 1634 is for Jacobus filius Gilberti Jones Esqr et ____ (blank) vxoris sue vicesimo nona.

The entry for 21 (not, I think, 20) November 1641 is
Brigida fil: Gilberti Jones gen' et Maria vx. sue Die vicesimo pri'o Nov___

I think Mary Ross Brown was correct about the year (1640) for Margarita. The page before her entry is marked 1640. Margarita's record is in the year preceding that of Brigida. It is definitely in November, not October.

[Brad Verity]

On Friday, October 31, 2014 4:53:32 PM UTC-7, Jan Wolfe wrote:

> > 8 November 1640 - no corresponding entry, but there is an entry for Margarita Jones on 8 Nov 1639, and we know from the article 'Welshpool registers: some extracts from the old registers of St Mary's Church' by Mary Newill Owen in 'Collections, Historical & Archaeological Relating to Montgomeryshire' Volume 36 (1912), p. 4: , so 1640 was an error made by Mary Ross Brown, and the year should be 1639

> The Family Search transcribers missed or misread some entries. In the images at findmypast, the entry for 29 (not, I think, 20) May 1634 is for Jacobus filius Gilberti Jones Esqr et ____ (blank) vxoris sue vicesimo nona.
> The entry for 21 (not, I think, 20) November 1641 is
> Brigida fil: Gilberti Jones gen' et Maria vx. sue Die vicesimo pri'o Nov___

Dear Jan,

Thank you very much for looking up the original Welshpool register thru findmypast - it is very helpful. Great to have the first names - James & Bridget - of the 1634 & 1641 children of Gilbert Jones.

Does the original Welshpool register give a first name to the child baptized in August 1636? Or indicate whether it was a son or a daughter?

> I think Mary Ross Brown was correct about the year (1640) for Margarita. The page before her entry is marked 1640. Margarita's record is in the year preceding that of Brigida. It is definitely in November, not October.

Interesting. I wonder whether the parish clerk recorded a 1639 baptism late, in the following year 1640? The text of the register entry as transcribed by Mary Newill Owen in her 1912 article 'Welshpool registers: some extracts from the old registers of St Mary's Church' reads "Margarita filia Gilberti Jones, balivi huius Villae et Mariae uxoris Octavo Octobris, 1639", which would definitely be a baptism in October 1639, not November 1640. But if entered on the 1640 page in the register, it explains why Mary Ross Brown thought the baptism was in that year.

It's always important to look at the original registers whenever possible, for, as you've shown, the online databases can easily mis-transribe names and dates.

Thanks again, and Cheers, -----Brad

[Jan Wolfe]

On Saturday, November 1, 2014 12:56:45 PM UTC-4, Brad Verity wrote:
...>

> Dear Jan,
>
> Thank you very much for looking up the original Welshpool register thru findmypast - it is very helpful. Great to have the first names - James & Bridget - of the 1634 & 1641 children of Gilbert Jones.
>
> Does the original Welshpool register give a first name to the child baptized in August 1636? Or indicate whether it was a son or a daughter?
>
> > I think Mary Ross Brown was correct about the year (1640) for Margarita. The page before her entry is marked 1640. Margarita's record is in the year preceding that of Brigida. It is definitely in November, not October.
>
> Interesting. I wonder whether the parish clerk recorded a 1639 baptism late, in the following year 1640? The text of the register entry as transcribed by Mary Newill Owen in her 1912 article 'Welshpool registers: some extracts from the old registers of St Mary's Church' reads "Margarita filia Gilberti Jones, balivi huius Villae et Mariae uxoris Octavo Octobris, 1639", which would definitely be a baptism in October 1639, not November 1640. But if entered on the 1640 page in the register, it explains why Mary Ross Brown thought the baptism was in that year.
>
> It's always important to look at the original registers whenever possible, for, as you've shown, the online databases can easily mis-transribe names and dates.
>
> Thanks again, and Cheers, -----Brad

The people who wrote the entries in the register did not write in the numerals for the year at the start of each year. Only some years are so marked. Anyone transcribing the records could easily get confused about the year. In the case of the record transcribed as "Margarita filia Gilberti Jones, balivi huius Villae et Mariae uxoris Octavo Octobris, 1639," there is no indication that the record was added later or out of order. It is clearly after the October entries and in the group of November entries. The words Octobris and Novembris each occur just once for each group. The entries appear to have been entered in order. There is no year mentioned anywhere on that page of the register book. On the previous page (the front side of the page in question), the first entry, dated sexto Januarij 1639. The year 1639 is repeated next to February for the next set of entries. In the set of entries for March, 1640 is written in the margin next to the entry dated vicesimo octavo. The entries on the page continue in order through most of October. Then there is one more October entry at the top of the next page, followed by the November entries. There is a bracket around the set of entries for each month in this part of the register, so the error about the month in the transcription you quoted seems odd as does the designation of the year as 1639.

There is a blank space where the name of the child should have been written in the 1636 entry. The entry reads, "______ fil Gilberti Jones Esq nono." The abbreviation fil appears used in all of the nearby entries, but a child's name appears in each of the other entries.

The burial record for Maria is also in this register, "Maria uxor Gilberti Jones 25 (superscript o) Novemb 1649." It is after an entry for October 1649 and before one that I think says "18 (superscript o) Jul 1650." Findmypast transcribed that next entry as 18 November 1649. The next page in the register is blank and the first entry on the next page is dated "the 9th of October 1653."

[Brad Verity]

On Saturday, November 1, 2014 12:10:06 PM UTC-7, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> The burial record for Maria is also in this register, "Maria uxor Gilberti Jones 25 (superscript o) Novemb 1649." It is after an entry for October 1649 and before one that I think says "18 (superscript o) Jul 1650." Findmypast transcribed that next entry as 18 November 1649. The next page in the register is blank and the first entry on the next page is dated "the 9th of October 1653."

Many thanks to Jan Wolfe for sending me the pages from the original Welshpool Register that she obtained from findmypast. Jan's reading of all of the relevant Jones entries is correct - including Margaret Jones being baptized in 1640 rather than 1639, as the 1912 article by Mary Newill Owen has it.

Most important is the burial entry for Mary, wife of Gilbert Jones, which Jan has correctly read as 25 November 1649. It wasn't mis-transcribed by Mary Ross Brown in her 1993 manuscript.

This means that "sister Jones" mentioned by William Littleton in his 1653 will cannot refer to his sister Mary Littleton Jones. As her ten pound annuity is mentioned by William immediately following an annuity of 10 pounds to Sampson Eyton, and William had married a widow Judith Eyton whose birth family has not yet been identified, my guess is that "sister Jones" was related to him through his wife, not by blood.

John Higgins sent me a 1982 pamphlet 'Thomas Lloyd: Dolobran to Pennsylvania' by Charles F.H. Evans & Irene Haines Leet. They identify his first wife Mary Jones as daughter of Gilbert Jones, bailiff of Welshpool and his wife Mary. The 1640 baptism entry for Margaret Jones in the Welshpool Register describes her as daughter of Gilbert Jones, bailiff of the town, and his wife Mary.

So the Mary Jones, daughter of the same couple, who was baptized at Welshpool on 3 March 1643/4, was the one who married Thomas Lloyd and emigrated with him to Philadelphia, where she died soon after.

That Evans and Leet didn't further identify Gilbert Jones's wife Mary in 1982 is not so surprising. No pedigree of the Jones family of Welshpool appears to have been taken by a herald in the 17th-century, and it is only from the Littleton pedigree taken in 1633 that we find out the identity of Gilbert Jones's wife Mary - a daughter of Sir Edward Littleton of Henley Hall (1551-1622) and Mary Walter (1567-1633).

Anyone studying the Lloyds and Jones families of Montgomeryshire would have to be familiar with the Littletons of Shropshire to make the leap. I've been in the process of entering into my database all of the Edward I lines from Douglas Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry 2004 edition. I'm going in order, starting from 'A', and am up to the "L's. Douglas has improved on the two earlier versions by David Faris by providing the names of all the children of a couple & the names of the husbands for the daughters. I've been slowly further identifying each of these husbands, and it is through researching Gilbert Jones and Perrot ap Rice, the husbands of Mary and Priscilla Littleton, respectively, that I came upon this online message which led me to Mary Jones, wife of Thomas Lloyd:
http://www.geni.com/discussions/137333

So coming to Mary Jones from the Littleton side was the way to identify her mother. Sir Edward Littleton's first four children (Edward, William, Anne & James) were all baptized at Munslow, Shropshire 1590-1594. Another four children (John, Martha, Priscilla & Nathaniel) were baptized at Hopton Castle, Shropshire 1600-1605. Another son Sir Timothy Littleton, was born about 1608, according to his HOP bio. That leaves three children of Sir Edward Littleton - Thomas, Mary and Joan - without baptism dates.

Some sources give Sir Edward Littleton and Mary Walter another child, Samuel Littleton, but he appears instead to have been a grandson, a son of their eldest son Sir Edward Littleton (1590-1645, later 1st Baron Littleton) and his 1st wife Anne.

John Osbaldeston of Chadlington (d. after 1668), the husband of Jane Littleton, was baptized 19 July 1604 at Chadlington, so Jane, like her brother Sir Timothy, was likely born after 1605 and the four children baptized at Hopton Castle.

Since Mary Littleton's eldest son and heir Edward Jones was born in 1621, Mary couldn't have been among the youngest of Sir Edward Littleton's children, whom, as John Higgins has pointed out, several Littleton sources have placed her amongst. Rather, Mary and her brother Thomas Littleton must've been born after 1594 and the four eldest children, but before 1600 and the four Littleton siblings born at Hopton Castle.

Since Mary Littleton Jones's final child Roger Jones was baptized at Welshpool on 28 December 1645, she cannot have been born much earlier than 1600, indeed not earlier really than 1598/99. A 25-year timespan between eldest and youngest child is not unheard of for a mother (see Philippa of Hainault, Edward III's queen), but pushing Mary's birth back into the mid-1590s wouldn't work. We know of nine children born to Mary Littleton and Gilbert Jones in that 25-year span: Edward (1621), Gilbert (by 1625), Littleton (by 1627), James (1634), unidentified (1636), Margaret (1640), Bridget (1641), Mary (1644), and Roger (1645). There of course could have been additional children born, like the three eldest sons, outside of Welshpool. Perhaps the years of childbearing weakened Mary Littleton Jones. At any rate, she died in 1649, four years after the birth of her final child.

Many thanks to all of those SGM members who helped with this topic, and to Jan Wolfe and John Higgins in particular, for their off list materials and assistance as well.

The Edward I descent for Gilbert Jones of Welshpool relies on the Cornewall of Burford family. The placement of Gilbert's ancestor Eleanor/Ellen Cornewall, wife of Roger Vaughan, within that family is problematic and requires some further research. I'll try and write up the details for a SGM post in the next few days.

Cheers, -----Brad

[Jan Wolfe]

On Monday, November 3, 2014 5:56:08 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
...

There of course could have been additional children born, like the three eldest sons, outside of Welshpool.

...

It appears that the earliest baptisms recorded in the extant Welshpool register occurred in 1634. There are some burials dated 1632 and 1633. Thus, earlier vital events in the family of Gilbert and Mary Jones may have occurred in Welshpool but may not have been recorded, or the records may have been lost.

[Brad Verity]

On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 9:39:22 AM UTC-8, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> It appears that the earliest baptisms recorded in the extant Welshpool register occurred in 1634. There are some burials dated 1632 and 1633. Thus, earlier vital events in the family of Gilbert and Mary Jones may have occurred in Welshpool but may not have been recorded, or the records may have been lost.

Thank you, Jan - great to know!

Cheers, ----Brad

[leslie...@gmail.com]

On Monday, November 3, 2014 2:56:08 PM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:

>
> I've been in the process of entering into my database all of the Edward I lines from Douglas Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry 2004 edition. I'm going in order, starting from 'A', and am up to the "L's. Douglas has improved on the two earlier versions by David Faris by providing the names of all the children of a couple & the names of the husbands for the daughters. I've been slowly further identifying each of these husbands, and it is through researching Gilbert Jones and Perrot ap Rice, the husbands of Mary and Priscilla Littleton, respectively, that I came upon this online message which led me to Mary Jones, wife of Thomas Lloyd:

> http://www.geni.com/discussions/137333

One colonist not included in Plantagenet Ancestry is
Richard Tilghman,who arrived in Maryland around 1661.
However, Tilghman is included in the Royal Descents books
by Gary Roberts.

Here are the details:

http://books.google.com/books?id=nCcUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA182&dq=william+tilghman+whetenhall&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pp5hVJXYBIypyAS35oHwBg&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=william%20tilghman%20whetenhall&f=false

Also here (with strange, incorrect references to the
Philadelphia City Cavalry):

http://books.google.com/books?id=J1tlAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA438&dq=oswald+tilghman+neville+berkeley&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VJ5hVL7uL4SOyATOm4KgCw&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=oswald%20tilghman%20neville%20berkeley&f=false

Leslie

[leslie...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 11:49:45 AM UTC-8, Douglas Richardson wrote:

> I've searched the published Probate Act Books for the Prerogative Court of Canterbury for 1633, 1634, and 1635. There is no mention of any Mary Jones being granted administration on the estate of any Edward Littleton in that source. The Probate Acts for P.C.C. for this period may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE84906

That is the wrong volume.

The correct reference is:

Index to administrations in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury : and now preserved in the Principal Probate Registry, Somerset House, London, British Record Society, v. 100. 1631-1648.

I examined this volume, and it includes the previously mentioned
administration of Edward Littleton, which mentions his daughter
Mary Jones.

Leslie

[Brad Verity]

On Friday, November 21, 2014 5:36:10 PM UTC-8, lma...@att.net wrote:
> That is the wrong volume.
> The correct reference is:
> Index to administrations in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury : and now preserved in the Principal Probate Registry, Somerset House, London, British Record Society, v. 100. 1631-1648.
> I examined this volume, and it includes the previously mentioned
> administration of Edward Littleton, which mentions his daughter
> Mary Jones.

This is great. Thank you so much for double-checking this, Leslie. And thank you also for sending me the details on the recent articles about Edward I descendant gateways. I'm going to track down those articles when I'm at the FHL in LA this Tuesday.

Cheers, -----Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Monday, November 3, 2014 at 2:56:08 PM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:
>it is through researching Gilbert Jones and Perrot ap Rice, the husbands of Mary and Priscilla Littleton, respectively, that I came upon this online message which led me to Mary Jones, wife of Thomas Lloyd:
> http://www.geni.com/discussions/137333

A few weeks ago, I was delighted to be contacted by UK-based genealogist Julie Summers, who is making a detailed case study of the Littletons of Shropshire. It was Julie's research behind the Geni.com post (linked to above) where I first discovered that Mary Littleton was the mother of Mary Jones, wife of Gov. Thomas Lloyd.

> Most important is the burial entry for Mary, wife of Gilbert Jones, which Jan has correctly read as 25 November 1649. It wasn't mis-transcribed by Mary Ross Brown in her 1993 manuscript.
> This means that "sister Jones" mentioned by William Littleton in his 1653 will cannot refer to his sister Mary Littleton Jones. As her ten pound annuity is mentioned by William immediately following an annuity of 10 pounds to Sampson Eyton, and William had married a widow Judith Eyton whose birth family has not yet been identified, my guess is that "sister Jones" was related to him through his wife, not by blood.

Julie:
Like you, I've been puzzled by the bequest to his "sister Jones" in William Littleton's will of 1653, presuming that the 1649 burial record for Mary, wife of Gilbert Jones, in Welshpool was indeed his sister. I suppose it's not impossible that this was a different Mary married to a different Gilbert (her son, Gilbert, b 1625 would have been old enough to have been married by that time) but reluctantly I have to agree this seems unlikely, so I decided to follow up your suggestion that "sister Jones" might be connected to William Littleton's wife, Judith Eaton. I've had several goes on previous occasions to work out who Judith Eaton was, without success. This time, however, I've managed to find her, or at least I think I have, and over the past week or so have got sidetracked by a whole new line of enquiry.

Judith Bellingham was the daughter of William Bellingham (b. Abt 1550 - d. abt 1620) of Manton & Bromby, Lincolnshire, and Frances Amcotts, daughter of Alexander Amcotts & Susan Disney. refs: Visitation of Cumberland & Westmorland
https://archive.org/details/pedigreesrecorde00sainrich Lincolnshire Pedigrees https://archive.org/details/lincolnshirepedi01madd

William & Frances had at least three daughters, Susan, Sarah and Judith, and two sons, Richard and William. Their precise dates of birth are uncertain and to date I haven't been able to trace any baptism records.

Richard is well known as the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony - his DOB is usually estimated as 1592.

William, probably younger, also emigrated to America and died in Rowley, Massachusetts, in 1650. Susan is often mistakenly identified as the wife of Philemon Pormont, founder of the Latin School in Boston. However, the Susanna Bellingham who married Philemon Pormont was baptised 1 Sept 1601 at Alford, Lincolnshire, the daughter of a different William Bellingham who died in 1606, and his wife, Anne:
ref: The Lincolnshire Origin of Some Exeter Settlers https://archive.org/details/lincolnshireorig00sanb

Sarah married Colonel William Goodricke of Walton Head, Yorkshire, 7 Jun 1612 at Frodingham, Lincolnshire
ref: Dugdale's Visitation of Yorkshire
https://archive.org/details/dugdalesvisitati01dugd

Sarah Goodricke is mentioned in the will of Judith Bellingham's second husband, William Littleton of the Moore, Shropshire (1591-1653), confirming that this is the right Judith Bellingham. Some sources suggest that there may have been a fourth daughter, Anne, the wife of William Hibbins, who was executed as a witch in Boston in 1656, made famous by Nathaniel Hawthorne's novel "The Scarlet Letter", although there seems to be some confusion as to whether this Anne was definitely Richard Bellingham's sister.

Judith married Thomas Eaton 1 Jan 1620/1 at St Mary le Strand. Their two younger children, Sampson and Frances, were baptised in Ludlow in 1623 and 1625 respectively, so presumably their father, Thomas, died sometime between 1625 and 1627, when Judith married William Littleton. Their son, Sampson, is listed as a fellow of University College in 1649 (Oxford alumni records), having previously spent 8 years at Harvard College, New England. Researching the history of Harvard College turns up various Eatons, including Theophilus and his brother Nathaniel, who may or may not be connected to Sampson and his father Thomas. I've tried (and so far failed) to work out exactly who Judith's first husband, Thomas Eaton, was and to that end emailed the Eaton Family Association asking if they have any suggestions, although to date I haven't heard anything back from them apart from a polite acknowledgement.

Anyhow, back to "sister Jones". Judith had at least two sisters, Susan and Sarah. The latter married William Goodricke and either she or her daughter, Sarah, is probably the "good Cosen Sarah Goodricke" mentioned in William Littleton's will, so can't be his sister Jones. I haven't managed to work out what happened to the other sister, Susan, so I suppose there's a remote possibility that she married a Mr Jones.

Me:
It's great to have William Littleton's wife Judith identified. His reference to "sister Jones" in his will remains hard to explain, but I feel if anyone can uncover the truth, it's Julie. IIRC, someone here on SocGenMed was studying Eyton/Eaton/Eton in some detail. If anyone can help Julie place Judith Bellingham's first husband Thomas Eyton within that family, I know she would be very grateful.

> We know of nine children born to Mary Littleton and Gilbert Jones in that 25-year span: Edward (1621), Gilbert (by 1625), Littleton (by 1627), James (1634), unidentified (1636), Margaret (1640), Bridget (1641), Mary (1644), and Roger (1645). There of course could have been additional children born, like the three eldest sons, outside of Welshpool.

From Julie:
I wondered whether you'd found this article "Extracts from Deeds Relating to Property in Leighton, Montgomeryshire" here:
https://archive.org/stream/collectionshisto26powyuoft#page/308/mode/2up
which includes two entries of relevance at the bottom of page 308/top of page 309.

The first, dated 12 Oct 1618 reads: Edmund Jones of Poole and Blanche his wife, Gilbert Jones of Gray's Inn, Gent., and Mary his wife, grant to Thomas Juckes of Buttington, Esq., and Rees Jones of Garthmill, Gent., 120 acres in Pool and Guilsfield, upon trust. Endorsed "About lands in Pool before Ed. Jones sold them to Ed. Waties"

The second, dated 14 Apr 1619, reads: Edmond Jones of Welsh Town, Gent., Blanche his wife, Gilbert Jones of Myvod, Gent., Mary his wife, and Jane Jones of Little Hem, widow of Gilbert Jones, Esq., deceased, for £1,000 sell to Edward Waties of Burway, Esq., a messuage in Welsh Town, with lands purchased by said Gilbert, and other lands, viz, Dol y Clivion, Ystrymdrinog.

The reference to Myvod (Meifod) in connection with Gilbert Jones led to these two baptism records on findmypast (attached):
1621/2 - (illegible - possibly Edward?) fil Gilberti Jones Febry 10
1625/6 - Gilbertus filius Gylberti Jones Bapt fuit duodecem die ffebruary
Could these be the two eldest sons of Gilbert and Mary Jones? Unfortunately the registers don't include the mother's name. However, the baptism of the eldest son in 1621/2 roughly correlates with the estimated DOB for Edward based on the Oxford Alumni entry, i.e. matric 11 Dec 1635 aged 14.

Me:
I believe that Julie has uncovered the baptism entries for Edward and Gilbert Jones, the two eldest brothers of Mary Jones, first wife of Gov. Thomas Lloyd.

Many thanks to Julie for sharing her research with me, and allowing me to share it here on SGM.

Cheers, ----Brad

[al...@mindspring.com]

Hi Brad

I am not an expert on the Eatons. Gov. Theophilus Eaton did have a younger brother Thomas born about the right time to have married Judith Bellingham. I have no proof of this.

Rev. Richard Eaton of Great Budworth will:

The Will of Rev. Richard Eaton
APPENDIX.

from will of Rev. Richard Eaton.* "In the name of God Amen.

Item whereas I have two .houses commonly called and knqwne by the names of Pow house and the Poos house situate in. Over Whettly in the County of Chester as alsoe a peeee of lande which I lately bought of John Eaton of Sandynay My will and mynde is that my lovinge wife Elizabeth Eaton shall quietly and peaceably have hold and enjoy the same duringe her naturall life togeather with all such landes rents and revenues as are thereto belonginge. or any wise appertaininge. Item whereas I have certajne other lande and Tenementes now in the oocupacion of Thomas Whittly as allsoe Brother-tons howse in Over Wheatly my Will and mynde is that my Executor hereafter named shall doe his best endevour to make sale of the aforesaid lande and Tenementes to the best advantage, And I doe freely give unto my Children hereafter named as Childrens partes and portions due from me unto them all such somme and sommes of money as those aforesaid landes and Tenementes beinge soulde shall amounte unto to witte unto Elizabeth, Hanah, John, Samuell, Thomas, ffrancis, Nathaniell, and Jonathan to be equally devided amongest them,

Item I give and bequeath unto my lovinge sonne Theophilus Eaton whome I doe make the full and sole Executor of this my last Will and Testament as his Childes parte and portion those two afore named howses called by the name of Pow howse and the Poos howse with the landes and promts thereto belonginge, onely reservinge the rents and commodities of the same unto my deare and lovinge wife duringe her life in manner and forme as is before expressed

* Weldon 8. Copied by Miss Kate Joyce, June, 1900.

Item I give and bequeath unto him after his mothers Decease, that parcell of lande which I bought of John Eaton of Sandy way with all other landes and tenements whatsoever that are myne either by fee simple or lease which have not in this present Testament beene mentioned. The residue of all my goodes Chattells Cattell money plate and all manner of moveables beinge first at the discretion of my Executor equally and justly valued my funerall charges allsoe beinge discharged I doe thus ordaine and appointe to be disposed of,

ffirst I give and bequeath unto my lovinge wife one thirde part thereof, Item I give and bequeath the two remayninge thirdes unto my afore named Children to witt Elizabeth, Hanah, John, Samuel. Thomas, ffrancis, Nathaniell and Jonathan to be equally devided amongest them. Item my will and mynde is that my sonne Theophilus shall pay unto my three Daughters (in consideration of the lande tli ill. I have given Mm) videl' Elizabeth, Hanah, and ffrancis at their severall marriages, such a somme or sommes of money as may make up those portions which I have allready bequeathed them the just somme of one hundred poundes a peece of currant English money, Item if my sonne Theophilua shall with the consent of my lovinge Wife covenant to pay unto my afore named Children when they of age* such portions as my said Wife and sonne shall in their Discretions thincke convenient and can agree upon, that then my expresse will and minde is, and I doe by these presents give and bequeath unto my said sonne Theophilus all those landes and Tenementes in the occupaoion of Thomas Whittly & Brotherton (which were above appointed to be sold) to be disposed of to his owne use and behoofe as he himselfe shall thincke fittinge which my said sonne I doe as before make and ordaine full and sole executor of this my last \Vill and Testament not doubting but he will see the same in all thinges dulie performed according to the truste I have and doe repose in him.

And I doe hereby revoke all former Willes Legaceys and Devises by me heretofore made And I will that this shall stand fore my last Will and none other or otherwise. In witnesse whereof to this my present Testament and last Will conteyning one sheete of paper and somewhat more I the said Richard Eaton have set to my hand and seale. Geouen the daye aud yere first above written.

Richard Eaton.

Sealed and published By the saied Richard Eaton as his last will and testament in the presence of us this twelveth of Julye one thousand six hundred and sixteene.
Mathewe Hilles
Joseph Denman
Thomas ffeatherstone
Probatum fuit testamentum supra scriptum apud London, &c., &c., &c.
14 January 1616-7.
Juramento Theophili Eaton. * Sic.
http://books.google.com/books?id=fYwNAQAAIAAJ&dq=eaton%20%22joseph%20denman%22&pg=PA32#v=onepage&q=eaton%20%22joseph%20denman%22&f=false


The timing, social status, etc. make sense but i have seen no evidence as yet.

Doug Smith

[al...@mindspring.com]

Hi Brad

William Littleton's reference to "sister" Jones might refer to the second wife of his brother Edward. She was named Sydney Jones.

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/littleton-edward-ii-1590-1645.

Doug Smith

[Brad Verity]

On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 11:42:01 AM UTC-8, al...@mindspring.com wrote:
> William Littleton's reference to "sister" Jones might refer to the second wife of his brother Edward. She was named Sydney Jones.
> http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/littleton-edward-ii-1590-1645.

Thank you, Doug. It's an interesting solution. Unfortunately, neither the HOP bio of Edward Littleton, nor his bio in ODNB, provide a death date for his second wife Sydney Jones, nor mention if she survived him. I'm also hesitant that a widow of a baron would be referred to by her maiden name in a brother-in-law's will - wouldn't she instead of "sister Jones" be "sister Lady Littleton"?

On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 6:24:31 AM UTC-8, al...@mindspring.com wrote:
> I am not an expert on the Eatons. Gov. Theophilus Eaton did have a younger brother Thomas born about the right time to have married Judith Bellingham. I have no proof of this.
> Rev. Richard Eaton of Great Budworth will:

[snip]

> And I doe freely give unto my Children hereafter named as Childrens partes and portions due from me unto them all such somme and sommes of money as those aforesaid landes and Tenementes beinge soulde shall amounte unto to witte unto Elizabeth, Hanah, John, Samuell, Thomas, ffrancis, Nathaniell, and Jonathan to be equally devided amongest them,

> Sealed and published By the saied Richard Eaton as his last will and testament in the presence of us this twelveth of Julye one thousand six hundred and sixteene.
> Mathewe Hilles
> Joseph Denman
> Thomas ffeatherstone
> Probatum fuit testamentum supra scriptum apud London, &c., &c., &c.
> 14 January 1616-7.

> The timing, social status, etc. make sense but i have seen no evidence as yet.

Many thanks for the transcription of Rev. Richard Eaton's 1616 will. Julie shares your thought that Thomas Eyton, first husband of Judith Bellingham, was related to Rev. Richard Eaton (d. 1616), but Judith's husband was too old to have been the Thomas Eaton younger son of the reverend.

Julie:
I haven't managed to identify which Thomas Eaton married Judith Bellingham but wonder whether
he may be related to the branch descended from the Rev. Richard Eaton of Great Budworth. He
probably wasn't Richard's son called Thomas, who was baptised in 8 Oct 1606 at Great Budworth,
as he would only have been about 14 years old at the time of Thomas Eaton & Judith Bellingham's
marriage. Richard's son Thomas is thought to have been the Thomas Eaton who married Elizabeth
Owbery in 1637. The record of this marriage is in the Clunbury, Shropshire, parish register (image
on findmypast)
The reason for thinking that there may be a connection with this branch of the Eaton family comes
from Sampson Eyton's entry in the register of Oxford Alumni (on Ancestry), which reads:
Eyton, Sampson, 8 years in HARVARD COLL., New England; fellow of UNIVERSITY COLL. By the
visitors 1649, ejected 1660, M.A. 24 July, 1652; admitted to Gray's Inn 24 Aug., 1658.
His Gray's Inn entry reads: Sampson Eyton, of the Moore, near Ludlow, Salop, gent
Alternatively, he may have gone to America with his uncle, Richard Bellingham, and be related to a
different branch of the Eaton family.
By 1660 Sampson was married to Anne (marriage record not found, possibly in Herefordshire).
Anne may have been Anne Pember, sister of the Francis Pember who married Sampson's sister.
Frances Eyton (see below)
Sampson and Anne's children were baptised in the Herefordshire parish of Almeley:
Thomas bapt. 2 Jan 1660
Sampson bapt. 4 Jan 1663
Benjamin bapt. 2 Sep 1665
Francis (b. abt 1667 - bapt. not found)
Nathaneal bapt. 16 Jul 1669
Devereux bapt. 11 May 1672
Sampson Eyton Snr. died in 1671 or 1672.
His son, Sampson (1663 - 1710), was apprenticed to London fishmonger, Edward Bellamy, in 1680
(apprenticeship record on Ancestry). The indenture describes him as "Sampson Eaton sonne of
Sampson Eaton late of the Parish of Eardisley in the County of Hereford Yeoman dec'd". The
younger Sampson was buried 7 Sep 1710 at St Mary, Whitechapel. His will, written in 1693 and
proved in London in 1711 (available from Ancestry), names three brothers, Francis, Nathaneal and
"Deverex" (Devereux), as well as his brother-in-law, Samuel Abbott and his wife, Mary (nee
Abbott).
Devereux Eyton, gent, of Nantwich(?) married Dorothy Boult of Stockport 24 Feb 1708, Church
Hulme, Cheshire, by licence
Devereux Eyton of Stockport bur 1 Jan 1711, St Mary, Stockport
No children found from this marriage
Frances, daughter of Thomas and Judith, was the Frances Eyton whose banns record for her
marriage to Francis Pember, dated 27 Nov 1653, appears in the Richard's Castle parish register.
Their eldest son, Francis Pember, was bapt at Richard's Castle, Shroopshire, 28 Jan 1654/5.
Three other children were baptised at Almeley:
Thomas bapt. 10 Feb 1656
Benjamin bapt. 5 Nov 1663
Mary bapt. 13 Jan 1667
a son, John, was buried in Almeley 5 Feb 1662
Francis Pember Snr. died in 1679
Frances Pember (nee Eyton) was buried 6 Feb 1690/91 at Almeley, Herefordshire
(Images of the Richard's Castle records are available from findmypast. Transcripts of the Almeley
baptism records from Ancestry)
Very little information has been found about Thomas and Judith Eaton's eldest son, also Thomas.
According to William Littleton's will of 1653 Thomas was married by that date although I haven't
been able to find the relevant marriage record. William's will refers to Thomas as his "sonne" and
also mentions "my daughter Eyton the wief of Thomas Eyton" although unfortunately he doesn't
give her first name. Two Pember-related documents mention a Thomas Eyton: the first, in 1659,
brought by Anne Pember, Frances Eyton's mother-in-law, regarding the marriage settlement of her
son, Francis, at the time of his marriage to Frances Eyton in 1653. The second is a feet of fines
document dated 1677/8 for the transfer of the manors of Almeley & Upcott from Francis & Frances
Pember to Thomas Eyton gent. The identity of this Thomas isn't clear - he could be Sampson's
brother or Sampson's son Thomas (b1660). No children of the elder Thomas have been found and
neither has his burial record.
ref: The Pember Family of Herefordshire by Colin Boylett (2013)

Unfortunately, for the next couple weeks, Julie is busy helping her daughter-in-law, and won't be able to research further into these families, but please, Doug, continue to share your thoughts and findings, as I know Julie is very interested in solving this if possible and will follow-up on all leads you (or anyone else here on SGM) have, once she has the time again to do so.

Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad

[al...@mindspring.com]

Hi Brad

A couple more things to peruse:

Robert Travers Herford, Memorials of Stand Chapel, Chap III, p 20. Anthony Wood, Athenae Oxonienses: an Exact History of all the Writers and Bishops who have had their Education in the University of Oxford from 1500 to 1690: 1691-2.


The family of Eaton is represented in many parts of the country, and is especially numerous in Cheshire. Most, if not all, of the Cheshire branches are derived from the Eatons of The Pole, near Great Budworth.

A curious story is told of the antecedents of the family, to the effect that their name was originally Pole (or De la Pole) that they were relatives of Cardinal Pole, that on the attainder of the Pole family in 1537 one member of it, by name Richard, who had lived in Devonshire at a place called Eaton, removed to Cheshire to escape the notice of the government, that he built the house near Great Budworth, part of which is still standing, and reversing the names called himself Eaton, and his house The Pole.*

Richard Eaton, as he called himself after his settlement in Cheshire, had two sons, George and Robert. George who was a friend and correspondent of John Bradford the Martyr, inherited the Pole estate, and became the ancestor of the Eatons of New England,-- Nathaniel, who was first master of New Cambridge; Samuel, (born 1597, died 1665), who returned to this country and was the Independent minister at Dukinfield; and Theophilus, who was governor of New Haven. These three were brothers. Robert Eaton, the younger son of Richard aforesaid, lived at Sandiway near Sevenoaks, Cheshire. He had a son Robert, (born 1577, died 1621) who was for 36 years chaplain to the Earls of Derby. His son again was Richard, who was vicar of Audlem from 1641 onwards, and his son again was the Robert Eaton with whom we are at present concerned. Robert was born in 163o, and was educated at Cambridge, where he studied for seven years. He took his degree of M.A., however, as of All Souls College,* Oxford, in 1653. Like many of his family he was intended for the church, and his first living was somewhere in Essex. Here he stayed till 1659, when he was appointed to the vicarage of Walton-on-the-Hill, a parish which included what was then the fishing village of Liverpool. The circumstances of this appointment were somewhat peculiar. In 1659 took place the unsuccessful rising of the Royalists of Cheshire and the neighbouring counties under leadership of Sir George Booth, of Dunham, a movement in which many Puritan clergy and laymen were involved. Amongst them was Henry Finch, vicar of Walton. On the failure of the enterprise, the Parliament naturally sought to lay hands on those who had taken part in it. Finch was compelled to leave his living, and his goods were seized by the Parliamentary sequestrators. By a friendly arrangement, Robert Eaton who was also a Royalist, was put in to hold the vacant living. But in the following year another change took place, owing to the restoration of the monarchy; for one result of that event was to replace in their former benefices all clergymen who, for whatever reason, had been deprived by authority of Parliament since the establishment of the Commonwealth. Consequently Finch returned to Walton, and Robert Eaton had to go elsewhere. He was presented to the perpetual curacy of Daresbury near Warrington, probably through the good offices of Sir George Booth. Here he stayed till 1662, when he took his place among the Two Thousand who went out on St. Bartholomew's Day. When this happened, he was already married, and had two children of whom one was six and the other five years old. Sir George Booth, now become Lord Delamere, befriended him once more, by appointing him to be his family chaplain at Dunham Park. How long he held this office, I do not know; but he was certainly there from 1664 till 1667. Henry Newcome in his autobiography, under date May 14th 1667, says "went to Dunham with Mr. Finch to see Mr. Eaton Mr. Eaton lived three years at Dunham and his children at Warrington."*

[* I am indebted for the above story, as well as for much help in ascertaining Robert Eaton's connection with the family, to the kindness of its present representative, Gerald Eaton, Esq., of the Pole.]

http://books.google.com/books?id=HAwaR9vcMFUC&dq=budsworth%20%22richard%20eaton%22&pg=PA20#v=onepage&q=budsworth%20%22richard%20eaton%22&f=false

For whatever they may be worth....

Doug Smith

[al...@mindspring.com]

Couple more odds and ends:

Ref No: X7381/82/426D
Date: 18th century
Description: Drawing of figure (incomplete) with halo, in stained glass. Inscription in stained glass recording gift of window by Richard Mason. Monumental inscription, and drawing of coat of arms, of Francis Jenkes (d. 1627), who married Frances Westfaling, daughter of Harbert Westfaling, bishop of Hereford; they had children Harbart Jenkes, John Jenkes, Benjamin Jenkes, , and Anne Jenkes (whom married Francis Pember). Monumental inscription of Philip Lutley (d. 1731), son of Bartholomew Lutley and his wife Margaret Lutley, and husband of Penelope Lutley, daughter of Richard Barneby; they had children Jenkes Lutley, Bartholomew Lutley, Richard Lutley, Isabella Lutley, Penelope Lutley, Margret Lutley, and Sarah Lutley. All at Eaton under Heywood.
Level: File
Related Material: Original page number 426D
Access Status: Original held elsewhere.
For more information contact: Shropshire Archives
Catalogue
X7381: ANTIQUARIAN NOTES AND DRAWINGS COLLECTED BY WILLIAM MYTTON (18th century)


and

Short title: Atherley v Perton. Plaintiffs: Philip Atherley . Defendants: Francis Perton and Joan Perton...

Court of Chancery: Six Clerks Office: Pleadings before 1714, Collins. Short title: Atherley v Perton. Plaintiffs: Philip Atherley . Defendants: Francis Perton and Joan Perton his wife. Subject: money matters, Staffordshire. Document type: bill, answer.
Held by: The National Archives - Chancery, the Wardrobe, Royal Household, Exchequer and various commissions
Date: 1660
Reference: C 6/151Pt1/5

from search snippet:

Defendants: Francis Perton and Joan Perton his wife. ..... Sampson Eyton , Thomas Eyton , Frances Eyton , Francis Pember and.

This would have to be ordered or viewed at Kew.

Not much...

Doug Smith

[topto...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 2:50:03 PM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:
>
> Judith Bellingham was the daughter of William Bellingham (b. Abt 1550 - d. abt 1620) of Manton & Bromby, Lincolnshire, and Frances Amcotts, daughter of Alexander Amcotts & Susan Disney. refs: Visitation of Cumberland & Westmorland
> https://archive.org/details/pedigreesrecorde00sainrich Lincolnshire Pedigrees https://archive.org/details/lincolnshirepedi01madd
>

> Cheers, ----Brad

Brad your initial date of "about 1550" for William Bellingham, is a touch too early. His father John was "aet 22" in 1558. William himself was "aet 60" in 1615.

http://www.archive.org/stream/lincolnshirepedi01madd#page/n268/mode/1up

http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=49030&iid=FLHG_AncestralRoots-0028
Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America Before 1700, By Frederick Lewis Weis. Baltimore, MD, USA: Genealogical Publishing Co., 2004.
Line 1 Edward Pelham, page 4
1.39 Penelope Pelham

http://books.google.com/books?id=IPcMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA851

[Brad Verity]

On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 4:02:22 PM UTC-8, al...@mindspring.com wrote:
> Couple more odds and ends:

> This would have to be ordered or viewed at Kew.
> Not much...

Doug,

'Not much'? It's a huge help! Many thanks for these leads, and for all of the information on the Eatons in your previous post. I've heard back from Julie - she thanks you too, and is looking forward to following up on these in a few weeks when she can focus again on genealogy research.

Cheers, ----Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 6:07:59 PM UTC-8, topto...@gmail.com wrote:
> Brad your initial date of "about 1550" for William Bellingham, is a touch too early. His father John was "aet 22" in 1558. William himself was "aet 60" in 1615.
>
> http://www.archive.org/stream/lincolnshirepedi01madd#page/n268/mode/1up
>
> http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=49030&iid=FLHG_AncestralRoots-0028
> Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America Before 1700, By Frederick Lewis Weis. Baltimore, MD, USA: Genealogical Publishing Co., 2004.
> Line 1 Edward Pelham, page 4
> 1.39 Penelope Pelham
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=IPcMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA851

Thank you for this - I'll make sure Julie Summers gets this information as well. Much appreciated!

Cheers, ----Brad

[al...@mindspring.com]

Thanks Brad

A little more on some Pembers from London:

There was a Devereux Pember from St. Almeley, Herefordshire with a son Robert in London (Pedigrees with index of London citizens, abt. 1600-1800, Boyd, Percival, (Manuscript, filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1954), FHL microfilms 94515-94649., vol. 554 no. 55975, FHL microfilm 94642.). Robert apprenticed in 1629.

Also a Francis who was an ironmanger and Alderman in 1626 (Pedigrees with Index of London Citizens, abt. 1600-1800 (filmed 1954), Boyd, Percival, compiler, (Microfilm copy of manuscripts at Somerset House, London. Salt Lake City, Utah: Filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1954), FHL microfilms 94,515-94,593., vol. 153 no. 15537, FHL microfilm 94562.)

Also a Devereux who married Anne Aston 20 Sep 1659 Stiffkey, Norfolk ( Pedigrees with Index of London Citizens, abt. 1600-1800 (filmed 1954), Boyd, Percival, compiler, (Microfilm copy of manuscripts at Somerset House, London. Salt Lake City, Utah: Filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1954), FHL microfilms 94,515-94,593., vol. 203 no. 20564, FHL microfilm 94572.)

There are also marriages of Walter to Anne Batty 5 Sep 1622 Stepney, Middlesex (Pedigrees with Index of London Citizens, abt. 1600-1800 (filmed 1954), Boyd, Percival, compiler, (Microfilm copy of manuscripts at Somerset House, London. Salt Lake City, Utah: Filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1954), FHL microfilms 94,515-94,593., vol. 422 no. 42253, FHL microfilm 94615.) and Richard married to Anne Tew 5 Jan 1615 St. Peter, Paul's Wharf, London (Pedigrees with Index of London Citizens, abt. 1600-1800 (filmed 1954), Boyd, Percival, compiler, (Microfilm copy of manuscripts at Somerset House, London. Salt Lake City, Utah: Filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1954), FHL microfilms 94,515-94,593., vol. 403 no. 40591, FHL microfilm 94612.)

Doug Smith

[al...@mindspring.com]

Couple more odds and ends:

Reference: PROB 11/127/432
Description: Will of Devereux Pember of Almeley, Herefordshire
Date: 29 April 1616
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record



Pedigree of Pember in Vis. Herefordshire 1683 (Coll. Arms K. 6.) Devereux Pember of Newport and Bollinghall father of John, Vicar of Bodenham and Almeley d. 1676 (Alumni Oxonienses: The Members of the University of Oxford, 1715 ..., Volume 3, University of Oxford, Joseph Foster, pp 1139) who had at least five sons: John of Tuthill b. ca. 1634, possibly Thomas a fellow of All Souls BA 1676, MA 1680.


Alumni Oxoniensis had Francis of co. Hereford, gentleman BA 1609; Francis of Newport Hereford, matric 167/3 brother of Thomas; John of Hereford (see above); John of Kingston, Hereford, BA 1688; Thomas of Newport, Hereford matric 1672/3 brother of Francis.

Doug Smith