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Which James Radcliffe married who in the family of George Neville (1st Lord Latimer)
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Andrew Lancaster
Feb 11, 2017, 10:55:05 AM2/11/17
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Dear List
In the family of George Neville (1st Lord Latimer) it is often said that at least one of the ladies married a James Radcliffe.
Taking Richardson's Royal Ancestry, looking under LATIMER (V.III p.538) a man of this name marries both a daughter of George and a grand daughter, her niece.
I suppose it is possible that both entries are correct, but I can not find details about this James Radcliffe (or these Jameses).
Can anyone add to the story?
Regards
Andrew
In the family of George Neville (1st Lord Latimer) it is often said that at least one of the ladies married a James Radcliffe.
Taking Richardson's Royal Ancestry, looking under LATIMER (V.III p.538) a man of this name marries both a daughter of George and a grand daughter, her niece.
I suppose it is possible that both entries are correct, but I can not find details about this James Radcliffe (or these Jameses).
Can anyone add to the story?
Regards
Andrew
Brad Verity
Feb 14, 2017, 3:30:29 AM2/14/17
to
Sir James Radcliffe was a younger son of Sir John Radcliffe of Attleborough (d. 1441) and his 2nd wife Katherine Burnell (1405-1452). He was Sheriff of Worcestershire 1480-1483, and married, as her 2nd husband, Katherine (Neville) Dudley (d. 15 Apr. 1493), widow of Oliver Dudley (slain at Edgecote Moor 25 July 1469), and only dau. of George Neville, 1st Lord Latimer and Lady Elizabeth Beauchamp. Katherine (Neville) (Dudley) Radcliffe died without issue, as did Sir James, who seems to have had only the one wife, Katherine. Her Devon and Northamptonshire IPMs are in CIPM Henry VII Vol. 1, p. 388. Neither mentions her second marriage to Sir James Radcliffe, but 'Pedigrees Showing the Relationship Between Many of the Nobility and Gentry, and the Blood Royal; Compiled About the Year 1505', Collectanea Topographica et Genealogical Vol. 1 (1834), p. 301 (Pedigree No. III), has:
"Katherine [dau of ‘George Lord Latimer = Elizabeth, dau. of the Earl of Warwick’], first wedded to Sir Oliver Dudley; after to Sir James Ratcliffe.”
There was no niece of Katherine married to Sir James Radcliffe. The error was originated by Robert Surtees in his 'Pedigree of the Lords Latimer' in 'The History and Antiquities of the County Palatine of Durham' Volume 4 (1840), p. 162. Surtees errs in giving the 1st Lord Latimer an additional daughter Jane Neville married to Oliver Dudley, and in giving Lord Latimer's son and heir Sir Henry Neville a daughter Joane married to Sir James Radcliffe. In reality it was Katharine Neville who married 1st Oliver Dudley, and 2nd Sir James Radcliffe. Surtees's error is repeated by Burke's Peerage and by Richardson's 'Royal Ancestry'.
Hope this helps.
Cheers, ----Brad
Andrew Lancaster
Feb 14, 2017, 6:47:03 AM2/14/17
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On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 9:30:29 AM UTC+1, Brad Verity wrote:
Much appreciated Brad. Taking your explanation as correct it would seem RA has the correct name and position for the first marriage, Katherine. I take it that you are saying her niece Jane did not exist at all?
Much appreciated Brad. Taking your explanation as correct it would seem RA has the correct name and position for the first marriage, Katherine. I take it that you are saying her niece Jane did not exist at all?
Brad Verity
Feb 14, 2017, 5:13:07 PM2/14/17
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On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 3:47:03 AM UTC-8, Andrew Lancaster wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 9:30:29 AM UTC+1, Brad Verity wrote:
>
> Much appreciated Brad. Taking your explanation as correct it would seem RA has the correct name and position for the first marriage, Katherine. I take it that you are saying her niece Jane did not exist at all?
Yes that's what I meant, Andrew. Sir Henry Neville and Joan Bourchier had only two children, sons Richard, 2nd Lord Latimer and Thomas Neville of Mathon, Worcestershire.
> On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 9:30:29 AM UTC+1, Brad Verity wrote:
>
> Much appreciated Brad. Taking your explanation as correct it would seem RA has the correct name and position for the first marriage, Katherine. I take it that you are saying her niece Jane did not exist at all?
The will of Lady Joan (Bourchier) Neville, written 2 Oct. 1470, proved 16 Oct. 1470, is summarized in 'Testamenta Vetusta' Vol. 1 (1825), pp. 309-310:
“Jane, widow of Sir Henry Nevil, Knight, 1470. My sons Lord Latimer and Thomas Nevill; my father Sir John Bourchier, Knight, Lord Berners; Margery my mother; my brothers Thomas and Sir Humphrey Bourchier; Elizabeth, wife of Sir Robert Welles, my sister.”
https://archive.org/stream/testamentavetust01nico#page/308/mode/2up
Had she had a daughter, Lady Joan Neville would certainly have mentioned her in her will.
Cheers, -----Brad
mk
Feb 15, 2017, 11:20:09 AM2/15/17
to Brad Verity, GenMedieval
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 5:13 PM, Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
> Had she had a daughter, Lady Joan Neville would certainly have mentioned
> her in her will.
>
> Cheers, -----Brad
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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>
Although I've seen cases where children were not mentioned because they had
pre-deceased the testator.
wrote:
>
>
> Had she had a daughter, Lady Joan Neville would certainly have mentioned
> her in her will.
>
> Cheers, -----Brad
>
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
Although I've seen cases where children were not mentioned because they had
pre-deceased the testator.
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