Hawise Paynel's marriage and children.
Tim Powys-Lybbe
conundrum to do with a Roger Berkeley who m. Hawise Paynel.
Keats-Rohan's Domesday Descendants has, p. 321:
"De Berchelai, Roger IV
"Son of Roger III de Berkeley of Dursley. He died in 1190, leaving by
his wife Hawise Paynel of Dudley (Mon. Ang. v, 204) a son Roger V (d.
1220). Sanders, 114"
Elsewhere in DD, p. 905, Roger IV has another wife:
"Filius Harding, Robert
"... His heir was his son Maurice, whose wife Helen was sister of Roger
IV of the first house of Berkeley whose wife Helen was Maurice's
sister. ..."
CP II p. 124, note (c) confirms that Roger IV married Helen dau of
Robert Fitz Harding and says that he was the ancestor of the Berkeleys
of Dursley. But CP does not say explicitly that the ancestress was
Helen FitzHarding.
So who was Hawise Paynel?
Sanders, "English baronies", p. 113 has
"Beatrice [dau of Wm fitz Ansculf] m. Fulk Paynel d. 1130-8. Ralph, s.
and h. d. ante 1153 leaving Gervase dsp 1194 when his heir was the son
of his sister Hawise.
"Hawise m. firstly John I de Somery d. ante 1194. She m., secondly,
Roger IV de Berkeley d. 1190 [note this date] of Dursley. ..."
Roger IV's death in 1190 is a little difficult to reconcile with the
latest death year of 1194 for his predecessor as husband, John de
Somery.
CP in the Somery article, Vol XII/1, p. 110, agrees that Roger de
Berkeley married Hawise and includes a snippet, note (c) that Roger de
Berkeley offered 60 mks to marry her in 1996-7 - in spite of being dead
for the previous six years. CP refers to the Pipe Roll, 9 Ric. I, p.
142. CP also refers to the same page of Dugdale's Mon Aug as does
Keats-Rohan (above).
Enter Smyth with his "Lives of the Berkeleys", Vol I, page 46:
"The said Roger sonne and heire of this Nicholaus by the name of
Rogerus filius Nicholaij, filij Robti, filij Harding, payd five hundred
markes pro habendis terris patris fui, to enter upon the lands that
were his Fathers | And this was for the releese after his fathers
death. And in the viijth yeare of King Richard the first, pay'd
threescore markes for the Kings licence to marry Hawisia mother of
Raph de Somery then a widowe and endowed of lands holden of that
Kinge in Capite.
"The said Roger dyed in the fifteenth of King Henry the third Anno
1230."
This Roger was the grandson of Robert FitzHarding who had been given
the barony of Berkeley. Certainly Robert FitzHarding's eldest son used
the surname of Berkeley and possibly his younger sons may have too and
it may just be that Smyth is right and that Hawise in fact married this
other Roger. This particular branch of the Berkeleys later became the
FitzNichols of Hill (aka Hull) and Nympsfield, Glos and Katherine, one
of the heirs, married a Poyntz.
If Smyth is right:
Domesday Descendants has it wrong that Roger IV Berkeley of Dursley m.
Hawise not to mention also that Roger V was Hawise's son.
Sanders, probably being Keats-Rohan's source, is also in error.
Curiously, CP made no mistake, as they did not identify the Roger de
Berkeley in the Somery article.
Anyone know any better?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org