Ancestry of Margery de Stuteville, wife of Sir Richard Foliot
Rosie Bevan
investigating the Stuteville ancestry of Margery de Stuteville.
1. ROBERT I de Stuteville of Etoutteville, Seine-Maritime, arr. Yvetot,
cant. Yerville and Cottingham, Yorks. He was amongst those granted the lands
forfeited by Hugh fitz Baldric in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire soon after 1087
but lost them owing to his support of Robert Curthose, and was captured at
the battle of Tinchebrai in 1106 after which he was condemned to be
imprisoned for life. The lands were subsequently granted to Nigel d'Aubigny
from whom they descended to Roger de Mowbray, but partially recovered by
Robert I's grandson, Robert III de Stuteville. He was a benefactor of Durham
and an entry in the Liber Vitae makes mention of himself, his wife Beatrice
(whose parentage is unknown) and sons Robert, Gradulf and William. In a
claim made by his great grandson William, he was described as Robert
Grandboeuf. He was also father of Emma, second wife of Robert fitz Hugh de
Grandmesnil whose six children are named in the Durham Liber Vitae.
Benefactor of St Mary's abbey, York, Durham priory and the church at
Lincoln.
Issue:
-Robert II. See below
-Gradulf
-William
-Emma. Married to Robert Grandmesnil.
[Sources: Keats-Rohan, 'Domesday Descendants'. p.723 ; Clay, 'Early
Yorkshire Charters' v.8, p.1-2 ; Sanders, 'English Baronies: a study of
their origin and descent 1086-1327', p.37]
2.ROBERT II de Stuteville. Not believed to have held lands in England. A
supporter of Robert Curthose with his father, he was captured at
St.Pierre-sur-Dive shortly before the battle of Tinchebrai. He was married
to Erneburga whose parentage is unknown.
Issue:
-Robert III of Cottingham. See below.
-William
-Roger (sheriff of Northumberland from Easter 1170-Easter 1185, and
castellan of Wark on Tweed)
-John of Long Lawford, Warwickshire
-Osmund of Weston Colville and Burton Agnes, Yorks. d. bef 1172. Succeeded
by son Roger.
[Sources : Keats-Rohan, 'Domesday Descendants' p.723 ; Clay, 'Early
Yorkshire Charters' v.8, p.2-5]
3.ROBERT III de Stuteville of Cottingham, Kettleby Thorpe, Yorks. and Bigby,
Lincs. In 1138 he fought at the Battle of the Standard. Instigated claims to
recover property confiscated from his grandfather in 1147 and was granted 10
knights' fees by Nigel de Mowbray which included the manor of Kirkby
Moorside and land in Warwickshire shortly after 1154. Supervisor of the
works of Bamburgh castle in 1166 and sheriff of Yorkshire from Easter 1170
to Michaelmas 1175. Benefactor to the abbeys of St Mary's York, Byland,
Rievaulx and Meaux and the priory of Durham. A charter of confirmation to
Rievaulx abbey c.1160-1183 for the health of his soul and the souls of
Robert de Stuteville his grandfather, Robert his father, Erneburga his
mother and Helewise his wife, and with the consent of his son William,
presents the Stuteville family over four generations. ["Robertus de
Stutevilla.sciatis me dedissee et confirmasse Deo et Ecclesiae S. Mariae
Rievallis, pro salute animae meae, et Roberti de Stutevilla, avi mei, et
Roberti, patris m mei, et Erneburge, matris meae, et Helewisae uxoris
meae, . in perpetuam elemosinam, concessu Willelmi filii mei, et aliorum
filiorum meorum, totam terram de Houetona." J.C.Atkinson (ed.), 'Rievaulx
Cartulary', p.80]. He married, before 1145, Helewise whose parentage is not
known and they founded Keldholm priory, a Benedictine nunnery. As 'domina
Helewis uxor Roberti de Stuteuilla' with Osmund 'filius ejus' she witnessed
a charter of William de Vescy to the brethren of Farne Island in about 1183.
Robert had an interest in Cowesby as shown by a charter of notification
dated around 1164-74, by Roger archbishop of York of the settlement of the
controversy between Hugh bishop of Durham and Robert de Stuteville relating
to the chapel of Cowesby. The dispute continued, however, after his death
under the aegis of his son Osmund. Robert died in 1183.
Issue:
-William son and heir d.1203, leaving son and heir Robert IV.
-Nicholas of Liddel, Cumberland. Succeeded his nephew, Robert IV in 1205.
-Osmund of Cowesby, Yorks. and Gressenhall, Norfolk. See below.
-Eustace of Brinklow, Warwickshire
-Robert of Great Ayton and Hemlington, Yorks.
-Burga. Married to William de Vescy and had Langton as her maritagium,
living as a widow in 1185.
-Helewise. Married (1) William II de Lancaster, lord of Kendal d.1184 by
whom she had Helewise (2) Hugh de Moreville of Burgh, Cumberland d. 1202 by
whom she had Ada and Joan (3) William son of Ranulf, lord of Greystoke
d.1209 by whom she had Thomas. In 1209 Robert de Vipont owed 500 marks for
and 5 palfreys for the custody of the land and heirs of William and the
marriage of his widow. Helewise died after 1228.
[Sources: Keats-Rohan, 'Domesday Descendants'. p.724 ; Clay, 'Early
Yorkshire Charters' v.8, p.5-15, 90, 95 ; Sanders, 'English Baronies: a
study of their origin and descent 1086-1327', p.37]
4. OSMUND de Stuteville of Cowesby, with holdings in Kepwith, East Ness and
Newsham, Brantingham, Riplingham, Newbald, Stillingfleet, Yorks. and
Gressenhall, Norfolk. Born bef 1145.
Holding two thirds of a fee of Robert de Stuteville, in Yorkshire in 1166.
As Cowesby was held by Hugh fitz Baldric at Domesday, the estate was very
likely part of that recovered by Robert III de Stuteville, father of Osmund.
In a list of benefactions to Rievaulx abbey, there is mention of a gift by
Osmund, which William de Stuteville his brother confirmed as overlord, of
facilities at Cowesby including a road which the monks made in the time of
his father. ["Donationem.quas Osmundus de Stutevilla.fecit Deo.de via de
Causeby infra villam et extra, quantum territorium ejusdem villae durat, et
nominatim de illa via quam ipsi fecerunt in tempore patris ipsius Osmundi,
ad orietalem partem ejusdem villae in ascencu montis, utendum libere sibi et
fratribus suis et serventibus et carectis et summaries et animalibus et
averiis suis, omni tempore, quantum terra de causeby durat, infra villam et
extra, tam versus Leche quam ex alia parte ejusdem villae:
Concessionem .quas Willelmus de Stutevilla .. Fecit Deo.de via de Kausebi
quam frater suus Osmundus dedit illis." J.C.Atkinson (ed.), 'Rievaulx
Cartulary', p.290]. Between 1189 and 1192 Osmund quitclaimed his rights in
Cowesby chapel after a settlement with Hugh bishop of Durham. He married
Isabel, heiress of the family descended from Wimar, tenant of Gressenhall
and Elsing, Norfolk. He died on crusade in Joppa in August 1192. Isabel
married secondly William de Huntingfield, following which there was a
protracted suit over her dower with William de Stuteville, Osmund's elder
brother. She died in 1209.
Issue:
- John. In 1191 he was on crusade in the company of king Richard, whose
god-daughter he married. John was disinherited by Osmund.
- William, who succeeded his father. See below
- Osmund (possibly). Occurs in 1216 with interests in Norfolk, Suffolk and
Essex
[Sources: Keats-Rohan, 'Domesday Descendants'. p.723 ; Clay, 'Early
Yorkshire Charters' v.8 p.34-35, 143]
5. WILLIAM de Stuteville of Cowesby, Yorks. and Gressenhall, Norfolk. As
William, son of Osmund de Stuteville he confirmed to Fountains abbey the
gift of half a carucate of land in Newsham in the parish of Kirby Wiske. In
1216 he occurs as a knight of the earl of Warenne. On 5 Nov 1219 the king
gave to him in marriage Margery (also known as Margaret), daughter and heir
of Hugh de Say, and widow of Hugh de Ferrers d.s.p. 1204 and Robert de
Mortimer d 1219, obtaining in her right the honour of Richard's Castle,
Herefordshire, which he held until his death in 1259. On 8 May 1229 he was
granted a yearly fair and a weekly market at his manor at Gressenhall. In
1232 as one of the barons of the Marches, he delivered up Osmund his son as
hostage for his fidelity. In Jan 1256-7 he confirmed to Castle Acre priory
all the gifts and confirmations of Osmund de Stuteville, his father, and
Isabel his mother and of Wimer, Roger his son and all his ancestors. The
writs for his inquisitions post mortem are dated 20 May 1259 when Sir Hugh
de Mortimer, son of Margery, was found to be heir to property in Shropshire
and Worcestershire which William held by courtesy of England.
Issue:
-Robert described as Robert de Estoteuill', lord of Cowesby, son of William
de Estoteuill' in 1270 released to Fountains abbey his right in land and
rent in Newsham. He was possibly married to Joan, da. and heir of William
Talbot of Gainesburgh, Lincs. He d.s.p shortly before 20 Aug 1275 when his
heir was found to be his nephew Jordan Foliot.
-Osmund. Named as son of William de Stuteville of Richard's Castle, was one
of the barons of the March who delivered hostages in June 1233.
-MARGERY. Married Sir Richard Foliot of Norton and Fenwick, Yorks. and
Grimston and Wellow, Notts. Their son, Jordan, was found to be heir of
Margery's brother Robert de Stuteville. PRO E42/236 Jordan son of Sir
Richard Foliot to Sir William his brother: Grant of his land in Tilney and
Islington (Ilsington), [in Tilney], late of Robert de Stotevill his uncle:
[Norf.] [Before 4 Edw I]
[Sources: Clay, 'Early Yorkshire Charters' v.8 p.35-37, 143 ; Sanders,
'English Baronies: a study of their origin and descent 1086-1327', p.75 ;
CIPM v.1 no.439 ; CIPM v.2 no.133 ; CP V :539; Blomefield, County of
Norfolk, v.8 p.201-203; v.8 p.512]
Cheers
Rosie
The...@aol.com
Dear Rosie,
That was an excellent piece of work - you are to be congratulated, as
well as thanked by myself and the other descendants of the Stutevilles who
have previously known only tenuous connections (if any) between these
individuals.
Your work will help connect not only the Foliot and Hastings descendants
of the Elsing/Gressenhall, Norfolk branch of the Stutevilles, but the
following as well:
1. Neville of Raby (descent from Joan de
Stuteville, wife of Maldred fitz Dolfin
and daughter of John de Stuteville of
Long Lawford, co. Warwick)
2. Hansard (from the same connection via
Joan de Stuteville)
3. Greystoke, de Lancaster (& de Brus) and
de Morville (de Multon) via Hawise, daughter
of Robert de Stuteville III and his wife
Hawise.
4. Wake of Liddel (from Nicholas de Stuteville
of Liddel, Cumberland)
The placement of Burga, wife of William Pantulf of Breedon-on-th-Hill,
co. Leics. (ancestress of de Tateshal and de St. Amand) awaits definitive
placement, but based on chronology and other factors she was most likely
either daughter or sister of John de Stuteville of Long Lawford.
Good luck, and good continued hunting!
John *
* John P. Ravilious
Cristopher Nash
>Dear Rosie,
>
> That was an excellent piece of work - you are to be congratulated, as
>well as thanked by myself and the other descendants of the Stutevilles who
>have previously known only tenuous connections (if any) between these
>individuals.
>
> Your work will help connect not only the Foliot and Hastings descendants
>of the Elsing/Gressenhall, Norfolk branch of the Stutevilles, but the
>following as well:
[SNIP]
> 3. Greystoke, de Lancaster (& de Brus) and
> de Morville (de Multon) via Hawise, daughter
> of Robert de Stuteville III and his wife
> Hawise.
Has anyone details as to why Helewise de LANCASTER, w. of Piers (II)
de BRUS and da. of Helewise de LANCASTER and Gilbert FITZ ROGER, is
traditionally called Helewise de LANCASTER? (Sorry for the screaming
caps - to save time I'm pasting from Richard Borthwick's account of
this line.) I'm assuming there's anecdotal evidence relating to
inheritance - or has Helewise just been historically and lamentably,
as we say over here, [Fitz] ROGERED?
Cris
--
Rosie Bevan
Presumably because Hawise' brother, William, assumed his mother's name of
Lancaster as male heir of that family. Even an illegitimate son of Gilbert
was named Roger de Lancaster [Sanders p.85 n.3].
Cheers
Rosie
Hal Bradley
Thank you for sharing your findings.
Although Erneburga's parentage is not known, Moriarty in "The Royal Descent
of a New England Settler," NEHGR 79:4 (Oct 1925), p. 374 states,
"Robert de Stuteville... appears to have married the daughter of Hugh Fitz
Baldric, the great domesday tenant in Yorkshire, as the later members of the
family are found holding many of Hugh's manors, among them Cottingham,
Cowsby and Boltby (cf. Domesday, vol. 1, folios 327b-328)."
Maybe this clue will lead to the identity of Erneburga. Does anyone have
additional information on Hugh Fitz Baldric?
Hal Bradley
2.ROBERT II de Stuteville. Not believed to have held lands in England. A
supporter of Robert Curthose with his father, he was captured at
St.Pierre-sur-Dive shortly before the battle of Tinchebrai. He was married
to Erneburga whose parentage is unknown.
snip
Rosie Bevan
Moriarty assumed Ernneburga was fitzBaldric's daughter because around 1087
some of Hugh FitzBaldric's lands found their way into Stuteville hands.
Moriarty appears unaware that they had been confiscated and there is no
evidence to support the assumption that Erneburga was Hugh's daughter. Other
major landholders such as the Brus family received portions of fitz Baldric
lands too. Hugh's known sons-in-law included Walter de Rivere and Guy de
Craon. [K-R Domesday People,267-268].
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
Cristopher Nash
Cris
"Rosie Bevan" <rbe...@paradise.net.nz> wrote --
>Presumably because Hawise' brother, William, assumed his mother's name of
>Lancaster as male heir of that family. Even an illegitimate son of Gilbert
>was named Roger de Lancaster [Sanders p.85 n.3].
>
> >
>> Has anyone details as to why Helewise de LANCASTER, w. of Piers (II)
>> de BRUS and da. of Helewise de LANCASTER and Gilbert FITZ ROGER, is
>> traditionally called Helewise de LANCASTER? (Sorry for the screaming
>> caps - to save time I'm pasting from Richard Borthwick's account of
>> this line.) I'm assuming there's anecdotal evidence relating to
>> inheritance - or has Helewise just been historically and lamentably,
> > as we say over here, [Fitz] ROGERED?
--
Rosie Bevan
Thank you for those kind words.
Clay placed Burga tentatively as daughter of Robert II de Stuteville and
Erneburga but as you say, the direct evidence does suggests that she was
daughter of John de Stuteville. In a charter of grant by William Pantulf to
her of dower, of the hamlet of 'Tunga' in Breedon-on-the-Hill, Leics., the
witnesses are led by "Robert de Stuteville, Roger de Stuteville, John de
Stuteville, his father and John de Stuteville, his brother..." [EYC i; no.
48]. Robert de Stuteville, clearly as senior member of the Stuteville family
heads the list, but the subsequent Stutevilles are all of Long Lawford.
William Pantulf, with Burga and their three sons called William, Roger and
Philip, was a benefactor of the abbey of St-Andre-en-Gouffern in 1166. Keats
Rohan identifies him as a younger son of Ivo Pantulf, lord of Wem by a
second marriage with Alice de Verdun [K-R, DD p.1059]
Clay mentions a narrative account in the Pipewell register, where it is
stated that Roger de Stuteville gave to Roger Pantulf, his nephew, his manor
of Newbold. Roger Pantulf had succeeded the Stutevilles in Newbold,
Cosford, and Long Lawford by 1214. His issue were William d.s.p. and two
daughters Burgia and Emma [EYC ix 26].
In 1214 Robert son of Maldred demanded against Roger Pantulf a moiety of 8
carucates in Long Lawford, of 5 carucates in Newbold and 3 carucates in
Cosford, as his right which ought to descend to him for his share of the
sisters of Roger de Stuteville. The source of this is given as Curia Regis
Rolls, vii 283.
In March 1281/2 an extent was made of the Stuteville inheritance after the
death of Baldwin Wake, son of Joan de Stuteville. Newbold, Cosford and Long
Lawford were stated to be held for one knight's fee by the heirs of Roger
Pantulf. This appears to be the extent of land originally held by John de
Stuteville who was referred to in a record of gift to Pipewell abbey, as
lord of Long Lawford, Newbold and Cosford. [EYC ix, 23]. What happened about
Robert fitz Maldred's claim is unclear at this point.
John de Stuteville senior held land also in Abkettleby, Holwell and Harby,
Leics. which he held of Geoffrey Ridel, and which was confirmed by the
latter around 1160. These appear to have passed via Burga to her children
and grandchildren. Clay makes the puzzling statement, "It has been noted
above that John de Stuteville held an interest in Abketleby and Holwell, co.
Leicester; and Roger Pantulf, the plaintiff in 1199, was one of his
grandsons and heirs. The deduction can therefore be made, though as a
tentative suggestion that Burga, wife of William Pantulf was sister of John
de Stuteville the elder, and that her interest in these places was given to
her on her marriage with William Pantulf, reservation being made, perhaps,
for the continuation of the interest of her brother John for his life. In
that event she can be identified as a daughter of Robert de Stuteville II"
[EYC ix, 27].
The problem with this statement is that if Roger Pantulf is a grandson of
John de Stuteville, and a nephew of Roger de Stuteville, then surely Roger's
mother as Burga must be daughter of John de Stuteville the elder. The crux
of the problem is that Clay unwilling to believe that Roger Pantulf named in
connection with his father's gift in 1166 can be the same one alive in 1220,
but there is no reason to assume that Roger had to be an adult at the time.
The following pedigree of Stuteville of Long Lawford is my interpretation.
Caveat emptor.
1. Robert II de Stuteville=Erneburga
2.Robert III de Stuteville d.1183=Hawise
2.John de Stuteville, lord of Long Lawford, Newbold and Cosford d.
poss bef 1184=Agnes
3.John Stuteville d.s.p.poss 1184
3.Roger d.s.p.1209-1214
3.Burga d.aft 1184=William Pantulf
4.William Pantulf
5 Isolda (widow in 1217)=Walter de Tateshall
5.Eustachia
4.Roger Pantulf succeeded Roger de Stuteville
5.William Pantulf d.s.p.
5.Burgia
5.Emma
4.Philip
3.Joan=Meldred fitz Dolfin
4.Robert fitz Meldred d.1253
5. Geofrey de Neville
=Gilbert le Halsart d.1196
4.Gilbert Halsart/Hansard
5.Gilbert Hansard
I hope this discussion has been useful.
Cheers
Rosie
Kevan L. Barton
You state that in 1214 Robert fitz Maldred "demanded against Roger Pantulf a
moiety of 8
carucates in Long Lawford, of 5 carucates in Newbold and 3 carucates in
Cosford, as his right which ought to descend to him for his share of the
sisters of Roger de Stuteville. The source of this is given as Curia Regis
Rolls, vii 283.
I'd be interested to find Gilbert Hansard's part, in any, in the claim on
his mother's inheritance. After all, he was half brother to the above
Robert fitz Maldred. Have you any information?
Cheers
Kevan
Rosie Bevan
As first born son, Robert fitz Maldred was Joan's son and heir. Gilbert as a
younger son would have no claim.
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
malinda
~malinda
Malinda, thank you for sending me Mr. Bevan's piece on the Stuteville's of
Long Lawford.
There are a few items, I would like to add which are of interest pertaining
to our lines. I was happy to see a name, Joan,
finally assigned to the dau. of John de Stuteville [son of Robert II and
Ernberge] lord of Long Lawford, Newbaud-on-Avon,
and Cosford, Co. Warwickshire, who d. bef 1184, m. Agnes. Perhaps we may
finally discover the name of John de Stuteville's sister who m. Michael le
Fleming als.de Furness, parents of Michael de Furness, d. 1186, m.
Christian
de Stainton. There is another Burga de Stuteville, liv 1185, who was the
dau
of Robert III de Stuteville d. 1183 and Hawise.
This Burga m. bef 1169-71 William de Vescy.
Can someone please place with the above:
William de Pandulf, 1st Baron of Wem, in Shropshire, tenant-in-chief of
Roger, Earl Montgomery
\
1. Philip de Pantulf, heir to the land in Normandy
2. Robert de Pantulf, heir in c.1112 to the English lands, d. bef. Dec.
1137-May 1138
\
Ivo de Pantulf, d. 1175 m. Alice de Verdun, [dau of Norman de
Verdun] whose heirs were her two younger sons
William and Norman.
\
Hugh de Pantulf, d. 1224 m. 1170, Christiana Fitz Alan, dau
of
William Fitz Alan and Isabel de Say
\
William de Pantulf, d. 4 Feb 1233, m. by 1226 Hawise
Fitz Warin, b. 1208, dau of Sir Fulk Fitz Warin III.
Thank you!
Rosie Bevan
The place of William and Roger Pantulf in the Pantulf of Wem family was
addressed in my post on the Stutevilles of Long Lawford. Roger was second
son of William Pantulf who was fourth son of Ivo Pantulf, lord of Wem, and
first son of Alice de Verdun.
I'm afraid I have no knowledge of a Stuteville/Fleming connection and would
be interested to know the details and source of this information.
Cheers
Rosie Bevan (Mrs)
----- Original Message -----
From: "malinda" <mthi...@swbell.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Bryant Smith
<SNIP>
>
> 3.ROBERT III de Stuteville
<SNIP>
> Issue:
> -William son and heir d.1203, leaving son and heir Robert IV.
> -Nicholas of Liddel, Cumberland. Succeeded his nephew, Robert IV in 1205.
<SNIP>
Is this the Nicholas who married Devorgilla of Galloway?
He's the only Nicholas de Stuteville I had b4 your post,
but the chronology looks a little awkward.
Thanks
Bryant Smith
Playa Palo Seco
Costa Rica
Rosie Bevan
main English line. So for those interested, here is what is known of the
Stutevilles of Cottingham, derived mainly from C.T.Clay, Early Yorkshire
Charters, v.9.
In 1276 and 1282 surveys compiled of the Cottingham estate revealed that it
consisted of a capital messuage of a manor, with a double ditch around the
court, surrounded by a wall, with a garden, dovecote, fishery, 1455 acres of
arable land, 433 acres of meadow, 364 acres of pastures, a park with a
circuit of 4 leagues, in which the game were estimated at 500 wild beasts,
four woods, three water mills and one wind mill. In addition there were 74
free tenants paying rent, 92 bondsmen and 137 cottars. Three advowsons
belonged to the manor - the church of Cottingham worth 200 marcs p.a, the
church of Roule worth 100 marcs and the church of Etton at 50 marcs p.a. The
total value per annum of the estate was estimated at L435 2s 3d.
1. ROBERT I de Stuteville of Etoutteville, Seine-Maritime, arr. Yvetot,
cant. Yerville and Cottingham, Yorks. He was amongst those granted the lands
forfeited by Hugh fitz Baldric in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire soon after 1087
but lost them owing to his support of Robert Curthose, and was captured at
the battle of Tinchebrai in 1106 after which he was condemned to be
imprisoned for life. The lands were subsequently granted to Nigel d'Aubigny
from whom they descended to Roger de Mowbray, but partially recovered by
Robert I's grandson, Robert III de Stuteville. He was a benefactor of Durham
and an entry in the Liber Vitae makes mention of himself, his wife Beatrice
(whose parentage is unknown) and sons Robert, Gradulf and William. In a
claim made by his great grandson William, he was described as Robert
Grandboeuf. He was also father of Emma, second wife of Robert fitz Hugh de
Grandmesnil whose six children are named in the Durham Liber Vitae.
Benefactor of St Mary's abbey, York, Durham priory and the church at
Lincoln.
Issue:
- Robert II. See below
- Gradulf
- William
- Emma. Married to Robert Grandmesnil.
[Sources: Keats-Rohan, 'Domesday Descendants'. p.723 ; Clay, 'Early
Yorkshire Charters' v.8, p.1-2 ; Sanders, 'English Baronies: a study of
their origin and descent 1086-1327', p.37]
2.ROBERT II de Stuteville. Not believed to have held lands in England. A
supporter of Robert Curthose with his father, he was captured at
St.Pierre-sur-Dive shortly before the battle of Tinchebrai. He was married
to Erneburga whose parentage is unknown.
Issue:
- Robert III of Cottingham. See below.
- William. Married to Emma, and held lands in West Yorkshire.
- Roger (sheriff of Northumberland from Easter 1170-Easter 1185, and
castellan of Wark on Tweed)
- John of Long Lawford, Warwickshire. Married to Agnes possibly da. of
Waleran son of Hugh and Matilda.
- Osmund of Weston Colville and Burton Agnes, Yorks. d. bef 1172. Succeeded
by son Roger.
- NN (soror Robert de Stuteville) wife of Robert de Daville
[Sources : Keats-Rohan, 'Domesday Descendants' p.722-724 ; Clay, 'Early
Yorkshire Charters' v.8, p.2-5]
3.ROBERT III de Stuteville of Cottingham, Kettleby Thorpe, Yorks. and Bigby,
Lincs. In 1138 he fought at the Battle of the Standard. Instigated claims to
recover property confiscated from his grandfather in 1147 and was granted 10
knights' fees by Nigel de Mowbray which included the manor of Kirkby
Moorside and land in Warwickshire shortly after 1154. Supervisor of the
works of Bamburgh castle in 1166 and sheriff of Yorkshire from Easter 1170
to Michaelmas 1175. Benefactor to the abbeys of St Mary's York, Byland,
Rievaulx and Meaux and the priory of Durham. A charter of confirmation to
Rievaulx abbey c.1160-1183 for the health of his soul and the souls of
Robert de Stuteville his grandfather, Robert his father, Erneburga his
mother and Helewise his wife, and with the consent of his son William,
presents the Stuteville family over four generations. ["Robertus de
Stutevilla.sciatis me dedissee et confirmasse Deo et Ecclesiae S. Mariae
Rievallis, pro salute animae meae, et Roberti de Stutevilla, avi mei, et
Roberti, patris m mei, et Erneburge, matris meae, et Helewisae uxoris meae,
in perpetuam elemosinam, concessu Willelmi filii mei, et aliorum filiorum
meorum, totam terram de Houetona." J.C.Atkinson (ed.), 'Rievaulx Cartulary',
p.80]. He married, before 1145, Helewise whose parentage is not known and
they founded Keldholm priory, a Benedictine nunnery. As 'domina Helewis uxor
Roberti de Stuteuilla' with Osmund 'filius ejus' she witnessed a charter of
William de Vescy to the brethren of Farne Island in about 1183. Robert had
an interest in Cowesby as shown by a charter of notification dated around
1164-74, by Roger archbishop of York of the settlement of the
controversy between Hugh bishop of Durham and Robert de Stuteville relating
to the chapel of Cowesby. The dispute continued, however, after his death
under the aegis of his son Osmund. Robert died in 1183.
Issue:
- William son and heir, the king's justice. Married Berta possibly
granddaughter (as she appears younger than the 4 daughters and outlived
them) of Ranulf de Glanville. [The Durham Liber Vitae lists "Rannulfus de
Glanvile et uxor ejus Berta, Matillis, Amabilis, Helewisa, Mabilia filae
eorum, et Berct"]. On the death of her son Berta's property fell to Ranulf
son of Robert of Middleham, Thomas de Arderne and Hugh de Auberville who
each had a third of her lands in Bramham and Leyburn. All three were sons
and representatives of the daughters of Ranulph de Glanville. Hugh d.1203,
leaving son and heir Robert IV who died s.p.under age in 1205. William also
had an illegitimate daughter.
- Nicholas of Liddel, Cumberland. Succeeded his nephew, Robert IV in 1205.
See below.
- Osmund of Cowesby, Yorks. and Gressenhall, Norfolk.
- Eustace of Brinklow, Warwickshire d.1218. His son and heir was Robert who
was brought up overseas.
- Robert of Great Ayton and Hemlington, Yorks.
- Burga. Married to William de Vescy and had Langton as her maritagium,
living as a widow in 1185.
- Helewise. Married (1) William II de Lancaster, lord of Kendal d.1184 by
whom she had Helewise (2) Hugh de Moreville of Burgh, Cumberland d. 1202 by
whom she had Ada and Joan (3) William son of Ranulf, lord of Greystoke
d.1209 by whom she had Thomas. In 1209 Robert de Vipont owed 500 marks for
and 5 palfreys for the custody of the land and heirs of William and the
marriage of his widow. Helewise died after 1228.
[Sources: Keats-Rohan, 'Domesday Descendants'. p.724 ; Clay, 'Early
Yorkshire Charters' v.8, p.5-15, 90, 95 ; Sanders, 'English Baronies: a
study of their origin and descent 1086-1327', p.37]
4. NICHOLAS de Stuteville of Liddel. In 1174 he was in possession of Liddel,
Cumberland when the castle was captured by William the Lion. In 1205 he made
a fine of 10,000 marks for having his inheritance of everything William, his
brother, held, except Knaresborough castle and Boroughbridge which was kept
in the king's hands until the fine was paid. It was never paid and those
properties passed from the Stuteville family. Nicholas married as his second
wife Gunnora, sister and coheir of Ralph d'Aubigny, widow of Gilbert de Gant
(d.1191). Gunnora's father was Ralph d'Aubigny, the elder, younger brother
of William d'Aubigny 'Brito' of Belvoir. In 1197 a fine was made recognising
their right to 15 knights' fees in Auborn and Binbrook, Lincs.and North
Dalton, Upper and Lower Naburn, Yorks.as Gunnor's inheritance. An unknown
first wife was mother of his sons Robert and Nicholas. Their relationship is
established in a charter of notification by four witnesses who stated they
were present when Nicholas de Stuteville and his sons, Robert and Nicholas,
bound themselves to give 100s rent to Kedholme priory. Nicholas is presumed
to be one of the confederate barons who met at Stamford at Easter 1216,
captured at Lincoln on 20 May 1217 and dead by 30 March 1218.
Issue
- Robert V. Married Sibyl, daughter of Philip Valoignes, who 1192-1205 gave
him and Sibyl and the heirs of their bodies the vill of Torpenhow,
Cumberland. In the lifetime of his father he received a knight's fee in
Middleton which he was holding early in the thirteenth century. He was
benefactor of Rosedale priory. He died v.p.before 27 Nov 1213 when Nicholas
Stuteville was ordered to deliver Eustace, son and heir of Robert, to Saer,
Earl of Winchester. Saer gave the custody of Eustace to his son Roger.
Eustace was married to Nichola but died s.p. shortly before 18 Oct 1241 on
crusade, and seisin of his lands was ordered to be given to Joan, wife of
Hugh Wake.
- Nicholas II. See below.
[EYC ix p. 13-18,124 ; Stevenson. Liber Vitae, p.15]
5.NICHOLAS II de Stuteville. Recorded in the Pipe Roll at Michaelmas 1209 as
Nicholas son of Nicholas. After the death of his father he administered the
inheritance of his nephew Eustace. Married Dervorguilla, da. of Roland of
Galloway, who brought an interest in Whissendine, Rutland to the family in
frank marriage. Nicholas died shortly before 19 October 1233 at the priory
of St Andrew, York. On 19 November 1233 the sheriff of York was ordered to
take his lands which had belonged to him, including the manor of Cottingham,
and to assign to Hugh Wake and Joan his wife, Nicholas' elder daughter and
heir her reasonable share and seisin, and similarly to William Mastac the
king's kinsman, to whom the king had given the marriage of Margaret, his
other daughter and heir.
Issue
- Joan. Eventually sole heir of her father, she was married to Hugh Wake
before 29 May 1229 when Hugh was pardoned for having married her without the
king' licence. On the death of her cousin Eustace de Stuteville in 1241, and
having outlived her sister, she was sole heir to the Stuteville inheritance
comprising Cottingham, Buttercrambe and Kirby Moorside (combined annual
value of L660 p.a. in 1282) and the honours of Liddell Strength and
Rosedale. Hugh Wake died on crusade in 1241 and on 2 Jan 1242 the king
granted to Joan his widow the custody of all the lands to hold until the
lawful age of the heirs, together with their marriage and licence to marry
at pleasure, for a fine of 10,000 marks. Before Michaelmas 1244 she married
Hugh Bigod, Chief Justiciar of England, by whom she was the mother of Roger
Bigod who succeeded as earl of Norfolk in 1270. Joan died shortly before 6
April 1276, her heir being her son Sir Baldwin Wake. By Hugh Wake, Joan also
had Nicholas, Hugh and possibly Isabel.
- Margaret. Married to William Mastac. She died s.p. shortly before 13
November 1235.
[EYC ix p. 18-23 ; Sanders, Baronies p. 129 ; William Brown, Yorkshire
Inquisitions, v.1 p.237-253 ; CP XII/2 p.299]
Hope this is of interest.
Rosie
Alex Maxwell Findlater
that when the Wake family inherited, Liddell became the caput of their
estate. Do you happen to know how Liddell came into the Stuteville
family, and why it surplanted Cottingham as the caput?
Many thanks
Alex
Rosie Bevan
There were various caputs during the time of the Stuteville family -
Cottingham, Knaresborough Castle, and Liddel Castle. Apart from the period
of confiscation 1108-1140s, Cottingham was held consistently by the family
throughout, but run down by the time Joan de Stuteville (Wake) died in 1276.
Knaresborough was held temporarily by the Stutevilles after confiscation
from the Vescy family during the time of King John.
The reason why Liddel became the caput is that it had been granted to
Robert III's second son, Nicholas, who was lord of Liddel Strength in his
own right. As he unexpectedly inherited the family estates when his nephew
died without issue, Liddel became amalgamated with those estates, and was
probably caput from that time onward.
How or why he acquired this barony is unclear. Clay EYC ix p.196 states that
his immediate predecessor was Turgis de Brundis [alias Rosedale] who was
described as "sometime lord of the manor of Liddel" in 1165. From an
unsourced account [Mike Salter, 'The Castles and Tower Houses of Cumbria',
1998], it appears that the Brundis family supported the Scots and were
allowed to remain in possession while they ruled Cumbria from 1136-1157,
after which the castle and manor were granted by Henry II to Nicholas.
On the death of Baldwin Wake in 1282 Liddel is described as a castle
"containing a wooden hall, with two solars, cellars and a chapel, also a
kitchen, a byre, a grange and a wooden granary which threatens ruin but
might now be repaired". In 1300 Edward I ordered Simon de Lindsay, who had
possession because of the minority of the heir, to "repair the Mote and the
fosses around it, strengthening and redressing the same and the pele and the
palisades, and making lodges within the mote if necessary for the safety of
the men-at-arms in the garrison".
"In 1342 Sir Walter Selby and his two sons were executed by by King David of
Scotland after the Scots besieged a garrison of two hundred men in the
wooden castle, storming and burning it after four days. Thomas Wake
reoccupied the site and is thought to have begun the stone tower in the
inner bailey, but it is unlikely that the tower saw much use after he died
in 1349."
During possession of Liddel, Cottingham does not appear to have been much
more than a moated manor house but was probably valued for the considerable
income the estate drew in.
I hope this answers your question.
Cheers
Rosie
Bryant Smith
Very interesting and useful! Thanks a million.
I have three questions, interspersed in the text below.
I have a Sibyl de Valoignes m Ralph d'Aubigny (spell it any way
you like)parents of the Gunnora (m Nicholas) in your post here.
They can't be the same -- were there two Sibyls, or have I got
the one and only in the wrong place?
> him and Sibyl and the heirs of their bodies the vill of Torpenhow,
> Cumberland. In the lifetime of his father he received a knight's fee in
> Middleton which he was holding early in the thirteenth century. He was
> benefactor of Rosedale priory. He died v.p.before 27 Nov 1213 when Nicholas
> Stuteville was ordered to deliver Eustace, son and heir of Robert, to Saer,
> Earl of Winchester. Saer gave the custody of Eustace to his son Roger.
> Eustace was married to Nichola but died s.p. shortly before 18 Oct 1241 on
> crusade, and seisin of his lands was ordered to be given to Joan, wife of
> Hugh Wake.
> - Nicholas II. See below.
> [EYC ix p. 13-18,124 ; Stevenson. Liber Vitae, p.15]
>
> 5.NICHOLAS II de Stuteville. Recorded in the Pipe Roll at Michaelmas 1209 as
> Nicholas son of Nicholas. After the death of his father he administered the
> inheritance of his nephew Eustace. Married Dervorguilla, da. of Roland of
> Galloway, who brought an interest in Whissendine, Rutland to the family in
My Devorgilla is dau of Alan & grand-dau of Roland. The chronology of
a Devorgilla sister of Alan is a bit awkward. Was there a Roland brother
of Alan who was Devorgilla's father?
> frank marriage. Nicholas died shortly before 19 October 1233 at the priory
> of St Andrew, York. On 19 November 1233 the sheriff of York was ordered to
> take his lands which had belonged to him, including the manor of Cottingham,
> and to assign to Hugh Wake and Joan his wife, Nicholas' elder daughter and
> heir her reasonable share and seisin, and similarly to William Mastac the
> king's kinsman, to whom the king had given the marriage of Margaret, his
Do we know the kinship here?
> other daughter and heir.
> Issue
> - Joan. Eventually sole heir of her father, she was married to Hugh Wake
> before 29 May 1229 when Hugh was pardoned for having married her without the
> king' licence. On the death of her cousin Eustace de Stuteville in 1241, and
> having outlived her sister, she was sole heir to the Stuteville inheritance
> comprising Cottingham, Buttercrambe and Kirby Moorside (combined annual
> value of L660 p.a. in 1282) and the honours of Liddell Strength and
> Rosedale. Hugh Wake died on crusade in 1241 and on 2 Jan 1242 the king
> granted to Joan his widow the custody of all the lands to hold until the
> lawful age of the heirs, together with their marriage and licence to marry
> at pleasure, for a fine of 10,000 marks. Before Michaelmas 1244 she married
> Hugh Bigod, Chief Justiciar of England, by whom she was the mother of Roger
> Bigod who succeeded as earl of Norfolk in 1270. Joan died shortly before 6
> April 1276, her heir being her son Sir Baldwin Wake. By Hugh Wake, Joan also
> had Nicholas, Hugh and possibly Isabel.
> - Margaret. Married to William Mastac. She died s.p. shortly before 13
> November 1235.
> [EYC ix p. 18-23 ; Sanders, Baronies p. 129 ; William Brown, Yorkshire
> Inquisitions, v.1 p.237-253 ; CP XII/2 p.299]
>
> Hope this is of interest.
>
> Rosie
Sorry to bury my questions but your post is too valuable to
snip into pieces "most relevant."
Thanks
Saludos
Rosie Bevan
For clarity's sake I'm responding to your questions at the head of the
message.
There were two Sybil de Valoignes living around the same time and very
likely to be related. Possibly aunt and niece, in that Sibyl the elder was
probably Philip de Valoigne's sister.
As you note Gunnora was daughter of Sibyl de Valoignes and Ralph d'Aubigny.
Gunnora married Nicholas de Stuteville, and Nicholas' son (Gunnora's
stepson), Robert, married Sibyl de Valoignes, daughter of Philip Valoignes.
Philip's son and heir, William, was married to Lora daughter of Saer de
Quincy, Earl of Winchester in whose wardship young Eustace de Stuteville was
placed.
To demonstrate the relationships from different angles we have it thus:
1.Sybil de Valoignes
+ Ralph d'Aubigny
2.Gunnora d'Aubigny
+ Nicholas de Stuteville
3.Eustace de Stuteville
1.Nicholas de Stuteville
+1.NN
2.Robert de Stuteville
+ Sibyl de Valoignes, dau. Philip Valoignes
3.Eustace de Valoignes whose custody was awarded to Saer de
Quincy.
+ 2.Gunnora d'Aubigny
1. Philip de Valoignes, Chamberlain of Scotland, son of Roger de Valoignes
and Agnes de Vescy
2.William de Valoignes
+ Lora de Quincy, dau. Saer de Quincy
2.Sybil de Valoignes
+ Robert de Stuteville
3.Eustace de Valoignes in custody of Saer de Quincy
Charles Clay believed the placement of Dervorguilla, wife of Nicholas de
Stuteville, as daughter of Alan of Galloway is chronologically unlikely, but
does not expound upon it in EYC. He wrote a paper on this - "Two
Dervorguillas" in Eng. Hist. Review, lxv (1950), pp. 89-91 which I have not
read.
Examining this issue, at the death of Nicholas de Stuteville in 1233, he and
Dervorguilla had a daughter, Joan, already married, who produced her first
born son around 1238 (38 in 1276). That would make Joan born before 1223 and
thus Devorguilla, her mother born before 1208. In all probability earlier
than this - before 1204. Roland de Galloway died in 1200, so if her father,
she would have to had been born before 1201. At the inquisitions taken
after death of Dervorguilla in 1290, John Baliol her youngest son and heir
is stated, to be "aged 40 at the Feast of St Michael last" and "aged 35".
[CIPM ii no. 771].(CP I 385 appears to be in error in an unsourced statement
saying he was born in 1240). The first date puts his birth in 1249, the
second in 1255. This does not take into consideration the fact that she also
had five daughters, as well as the three sons, who may have been born after
her third son. For this to be the same Dervorguilla who produced Nicholas
Stuteville's daughters in the early 1220s and John Balliol's children in the
late 1230-50s, and died in 1290, it would mean a period of childbearing
spanning over 30 years and a death in her late 80s. While not impossible, it
would be unusual for the time.
The Chronicle of Melrose has Dervorguilla married to Baliol in 1223 (Alan
was married to Margaret of Huntingdon in 1209), which would conflict with
the marriage of Dervorguilla and Nicholas de Stuteville. However such
chronicles should be judged in the context in which they were written.
If anyone has access to the above mentioned paper, I would be interested in
Clay's analysis.
I'm afraid I have no answers as to William Mastac's relationship to the
king.
Hope this has not muddied the waters excessively.
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryant Smith" <ski...@racsa.co.cr>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 4:45 AM
Subject: Re: Stuteville of Cottingham
Bryant Smith
<SNIP>
Rosie,
Your clear exposition (below)of the Valoigne/Stuteville relationships
is terrific. Although I suspected the existence of two Sibyls
I had not realized that there were two Eustaces, each son
of a Stuteville but one surnamed de Valoigne, and I had the
wrong Eustace (my only one) as the ward. Now all is clear.
Thanks a thousand times.
Saludos
Bryant Smith
Playa Palo Seco
Costa Rica
>
<SNIP>
Bryant Smith
rbe...@paradise.net.nz ("Rosie Bevan") wrote in message news:<015501c25918$bad36ae0$de00...@mshome.net>...
I join you in hoping that someone can come up with
Clay's paper, and I can't imagine how creating another
Devorgilla would solve the chronological problem which, as
I see it, is made worse not better by making Roland not Alan
the father of Devorgilla.
Before I need get to the child bearing history of Joan, I see
Clay's "unlikely" chronology in Devorgilla's own biography:
If Joan was already married when her father died in 1233,
she must have been married before 1234. If her maternal
grandfather married her maternal grandmother in 1209,
her mother Devorgilla must have been born after 1208.
Even allowing Devorgila dau of Alan to give birth at
age 15 to Joan, Joan would have to have been born
after 1223,and cannot have been older than 11 when
she married Hugh Wake. Even allowing for a posthumous
child of Hugh, his last child be Joan would have to have
been born by 1243, when Joan cannot have been older than
20.
1209
Alan of Galloway=====Margaret of Huntingdon
d 1234 |
ca 1233 |
John Baliol === Devorgilla === Nicholas de S
| d 1290 | d 1233
/ |
_______/ bef 1234 |
| Hugh Wake ===== Joan === Hugh Bigod
John d bef 1242
(youngest son)
born 1249 or 1255
But if we take John Baliol ygr's birthdate as 1249
we can compress Devorgilla's childbearing years down
to a paltry 25 (say 1224 - 1249) ending at an age of
say 40-ish, and the chronology might work.
Saludos
Bryant Smith
Playa Palo Seco
Costa Rica
<SNIP>
<SNIP>
Rosie Bevan
The exposition was even more 'clear' than intended. I'm afraid I made an
error in that there is no Eustace de Valoignes. This is a mistake and should
read Eustace de Stuteville.
I do apologise for the error.
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryant Smith" <ski...@racsa.co.cr>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 5:19 AM
Subject: Re: Stuteville of Cottingham
The...@aol.com
Dear Bryant, Rosie, et al.,
I thought it was accepted that there were two women named Dervorguilla, to-wit:
Roland of = Elena de
Galloway I Morville
d. 1200 I
_________________I___________
I I
1)_= Alan of = 2)Margaret Dervorguilla = Nicholas de
I Galloway I 'of b.bef 1200 I Stuteville
I I I
__I_____ _I________________ I
I I I I I V
a dau. Dervorguilla [sister] from whom,
b.say 1210-15 STUTEVILLE of
= 1233 John de Baliol LIDDEL &
(she d. 1290) COTTINGHAM
I
I
V
from whom, BALIOL (KINGS OF SCOTS)
COMYN of BADENOCH
& de BURGH ( -> FITZWALTER -> MARSHAL ->MORLEY)
The issue of John de Baliol and Dervorguilla of Galloway were evidently born between 1235 and 1255, which works well with a birthdate of 1210 or later; birthdate of 1200 or before seems untenable. Given Dervorguilla's death date (according to SP) of 28 Jan 1289/90, a date of 1200 or before is even less likely.
The foregoing does lose a line of royal descent (Scots) for the Stutevilles of Liddel; however, there is less to explain away - including why the Stutevilles placed no claim for the Scots throne in 1291/2. This would (under the 'one Dervorguilla' theory) have placed a Stuteville, or a Wake anyway, well ahead of the Baliol claim.
Hope this helps.
ADRIANC...@aol.com
<snip>
> Charles Clay believed the placement of Dervorguilla, wife of Nicholas de
> Stuteville, as daughter of Alan of Galloway is chronologically unlikely,
> but
> does not expound upon it in EYC. He wrote a paper on this - "Two
> Dervorguillas" in Eng. Hist. Review, lxv (1950), pp. 89-91 which I have not
> read.
>
>
<snip>
Dervorguilla seems an uncommon name to me, perhaps I have been looking in the
wrong places, however I did come across it just now. I don't know if there
is any connection:
CP Vol V pp 472-5
Sir Robert FITZ WALTER of Woodham Walter etc ... b at Henham in 1247 ... m,
1stly Dervorguille {footnote Correctly Derbhorcaill (pronounced Derforgill):
the name of the famous and faithless wife of Tighernan O'Ruairc.} 1st da. and
coh of Sir John DE BURGH, of Wakerley ... by Cecily da. and in her issue
coh., of Sir John de Balliol, of Barnard Castle, co Durham ...
Burke's states she was grand-dau of Herbert de Burgh, Earl of Kent
Perhaps this the other Dervorguilla in Clay's "Two Dervorguillas"
Adrian
The...@aol.com
Dear Adrian,
Actually, this is a third 'Dervorguilla' [although she evidently went by Dervorguille, per my notes]. However, she is outside the chronological fray now underway.
Her mother Cecily/Cecilia de Baliol was a younger daughter of Dervorguilla of Galloway by John de Baliol; Dervorguille de Burgh was b. ca. 1256, and by her husband Sir Robert FitzWalter was the ancestress of the Lords Morley and others [1]. I believe this line (due to the FitzWalter descent from William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury and illeg. son of Henry II of England) will be covered in Douglas Richardson's forthcoming Plantagenet Ancestry (3rd ed.).
Hope this helps.
John *
NOTE
[1] The later Lords FitzWalter descend from another wife of this Sir Robert.
* John P. Ravilious
Rosie Bevan
We know that Joan was "married" in 1229 but this need not necessarily mean
that she was 12, but that she was over the age of 7 and a marriage had been
contracted (remembering this was as binding as marriage itself, involving
property transactions, even though there had yet not been agreement and
consummation at the appropriate ages). The birth of Hugh Wake's son and heir
in 1238 would be consistent with the impression that she was born around
1222.
We know that Alan de Galloway and Margaret de Huntingon were married in 1209
and that would preclude the Stuteville Dervorguilla from being their
daughter, for it is highly unlikely she would give birth to Joan at the age
of 12. We also know that Dervorguilla de Stuteville held her maritagium of
Whissendene of Alan of Galloway. So the logical conclusion is that were
either two daughters of Alan called Dervorguilla, or a sister of Alan called
Dervorguilla. I don't see that there is a chronological problem with
Dervorguilla being a daughter of Roland.
I will get hold of Clay's article and report back his arguments and any
additional information.
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryant Smith" <ski...@racsa.co.cr>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: Stuteville of Cottingham
The...@aol.com
Dear Rosie,
Thanks for the additional details, and the offer for the 'book report' on Clay....;)
One question, and one statement:
1. Whence went Whissendine [Dervorguilla 'the elder' 's
maritagium] ? Assuming it went the way of the
Wakes, or of Mastac, that tends to negate other
younger offspring requiring provision by their
mother, esp. given the size of the Stuteville
inheritance.
2. As I noted before: while Dervorguilla 'the elder'
might have been one of two daughters of Alan of
Galloway by that name, aside from problems
chronological and biological, she could not have
been a full sister of the younger Dervorguilla;
there is the problem of the competition for
the Scots crown 1291/2, which would otherwise
have found the young Sir John Wake of Liddel
(then aged 23 or so) in the thick of it.
Then too, there is a question as to the Scots lands acquired by the de Quincy and other heirs of the elder daughters of Alan of Galloway (not by Margaret of Huntingdon).
I will continue to assume the 'daughter of Roland' situation still obtains. Nevertheless, the information from Clay should be interesting indeed...
Cheers,
Rosie Bevan
Whissendine, Rutland went to the Wake family. Clays says that the details of
the descent are given in William Farrer, 'Honors and Knights' Fees', ii
p.359.
Even if Dervorguilla were married to Stuteville and Baliol, I'm not sure
that the Wake's would have figured as John Balliol, being her son and heir,
albeit of her second family, would have been Dervorguilla's male
representative.
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: <The...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: Stuteville of Cottingham
Rosie Bevan
Thank you very much for taking the time to to summarise Clay's article in
detail.
I think we had just about covered the main points ourselves, but I was
hoping that there might be something additional which would preclude both
marriages. Curious how Clay says Dervorguilla married John Baliol in 1233
(Chron.Melrose, fo.41v, p82) and has the date as 1223 in EYC. I suppose it
must be a typo - it's easily done.
Another factor which is conspicuous by it's absence is any mention of
Balliol involvement in Stuteville dower lands. One would expect to see
something over such a long period of widowhood.
Thanks, again Ivor.
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ivor West" <i...@freeuk.com>
To: ""Rosie Bevan"" <rbe...@paradise.net.nz>
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: Stuteville of Cottingham
> Summarizing Clay's analysis in the article (EHR, lxv,(1950), pp89-91),
> he says that Nicholas de Stuteville died in 1233 and, according to
> Farrer, Dervorguilla remarried John Baliol. But when her father, Alan
> of Galloway, died in 1234, there was no mention of any husband other
> than Baliol. A Dervorguilla was described as widow of Nicholas de
> Stuteville in 1236 (Exc. e. Rot. Fin., i.309) and as Dervorguilla de
> Stuteville in 1238 (Reg. Gray, Surtees Soc., 81) and in 1241 ( York
> Fines, 1232 - 1266, p95-96). None of these refer to John Baliol.
>
> The Dervorguilla who married John Baliol cannot have been born before
> 1209, the date of her parents' marriage, but the daughter of the
> Dervorguilla who married Nicholas de Stuteville, Joan de Stuteville,
> was married to Hugh de Wake by 1229. Therefore, chronologically, there
> must have been two Dervorguillas.
>
> Farrer had stated that the most important evidence for Alan of
> Galloway's daughter being the mother of Nicholas de Stuteville's
> daughter is the descent of Whissendine (Hugh Morville - Richard
> Morville - Helen Morville m. Roland of Galloway - Alan). Clay thought
> that this can be explained on assumption that Alan gave Whissendine to
> his sister, the other Dervorguilla, in frank-marriage with Nicholas de
> Stuteville. He gave another sister to Walter de Biset as late as 1233
> (Chron.Melrose, fo.41v, p82).
>
> Clay says that Dervorguilla married John Baliol in 1233 (Chron.
> Melrose, fo.41v, p82).
>
> Ivor West
Cristopher Nash
>The source for the marriage between Edith D'Oyly and Gilbert de Basset is
>Bayley. Account of the House of D'Oyly, 1845.p.10. His source was Dugdale's
>Monasticon, 1723 vol. II p.126. . I don't know what Dugdale's source was,
>but think it likely to be the annals of Oseney Abbey. I haven't got the
>reference to hand at present but will get hold of it next week to confirm.
Rosie, having been as worried as you probably were about reliance on
Dugdale for this, I'm beginning (or startin agin) to wonder. Reason
- I note that while I haven't, Keats-Rohan has looked at Oseney's
Cartulary and gives Edith as m. to "nepos Brientii, known as Wigan of
Wallingford...of the Wolverton family" (DD, 620-21), without mention
of Bassett. Of course Bassetts - & evidently espec. Gilbert s. of
this Gilbert - later held much of Wallingford (per DD, 7 fees of the
honour in 1166, p 164), but being a lazy bugger I haven't even
checked VCH Wallingford*. I'm rather inclined to trust K-R on this
point (though it doesn't extinguish the possibility of the Bassett
marriage) and should get hold of her 'Devolution of the Honor of
Wallingford 1066-1154' in _Oxoniensa_, as well as the Bassett
Cartulary, if no one else here already has... But any thoughts or
more recent developments at your end?
Cris
I've a worrisome whiff of a tangle here, as Robert I d'Oilly, Edith's
gruncle (a technical term I'm hoping to establish without delay), m.
Alditha/Edgitha da. & heiress of Wigod of Wallingford. (DP, p 378)
--
Rosie Bevan
I note your concern about Wigod and Wigan de Wallingford, but would be
inclined to believe K-R's account. I'm afraid that I haven't pursued this
line of research, nor have I seen 'Devolution of the Honor of Wallingford
1066-1154'.
Cheers
Rosie
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From: "Cristopher Nash" <c...@windsong.u-net.com>
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