Robert de Courtenay, kinsman of Queen Isabel of Angouleme
Douglas Richardson
Sometime ago, I came across a reference to Robert de Courtenay who was
called "queen's kinsman." I found this reference in the book,
Calendar of Documents Relating to Scotland, which title was published
in 4 volumes from 1881 to 1888. If anyone has access to these
volumes, I'd be grateful if they could find and post the reference in
question to Robert de Courtenay being the "queen's kinsman."
The Robert de Courtenay in question was Sheriff of Cumberland in
1203-4, and died shortly before Michaelmas 1210. He married Alice,
widow of Gilbert Pipard, and daughter of William Fitz Duncan of
Scotland, by Alice, daughter and co-heiress of William le Meschin
[Reference: Complete Peerage, 10 (1946): 527-528 (sub Pipard)]. He
left no issue.
I don't believe this Robert de Courtenay was a member of the Courtenay
family of Devonshire. Rather, I believe he was a native of France.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Stewart, Peter
Why? Most sources have him as the son of Renard de Courtenay, lord of
Sutton, Berkshire (died October/December 1190) by his second wife Maud, dame
of Le Sap (died 1224), daughter of Robert fitz Edith & Maud d'Avranches,
dame of Le Sap.
This Robert de Courtenay was married first to Maud, daughter of Robert fitz
Urse, of Bulwick, by whom he had a son William, of Bulwick (died before 18
January 1215), who was the first husband of Ada, daughter of Patrick, earl
of Dunbar & Ada de Louvain. According to the same sources, the marriage you
mentioned for Robert, to Alice, was his second.
Can you post your rationale for doubting this filiation?
Peter Stewart
The...@aol.com
Dear Douglas,
I believe the Robert de Courtenay you have identified is
otherwise known as Robert de Courtenay, husband (possibly
1stly) of Maud FitzUrse, daughter and heiress of the
infamous Renaud FitzUrse of Bulwick, co. Northants [one of
the murderers of Thomas Becket, Archbp. of Canterbury] [1].
I am not aware of further details of the career of this
Robert de Courtenay, or of other marriages, but this
identification (if correct) would yield the relationship to
Isabel of Angouleme outlined below.
[NOTE: the relationship of various branches of the
Courtenay family are still subject to debate]
Miles de Courtenay = Ermengarde de Nevers
I
I
Renaud de Courtenay
seigneur de Courtenay
I
_____________I_______________________
I I
Elizabeth = Pierre of France Renaud de Courtenay
I son of Louis VI seigneur de Courtenay
I (received the (dispossessed); of
I seigneurie of Sutton, Berks. and
I Courtenay) Waddesdon, Bucks. [2]
I I
_________I_________________ I_____
I I I
Pierre Aymer = Alice ROBERT DE
- Latin count of I COURTENAY
Emperor of Angouleme I
Constantinople I
d. 1219 I
I I
I ISABEL OF ANGOULEME
I
V
from whom,
Kings of Aragon (from 1276),
Kings of France (from 1285),
Kings of England (from 1327)
Hope this is helpful.
John *
NOTES
[1] See CP, under Engaine, Lord Engaine.
[2] M. Middleton, SGM, <de Courtenay> Oct 8, 2001, citation
from Herbert Seversmith, re: Renaud de Courtenay, The
Berks., Bucks. and Oxon. Archeological Jour., Vol. 25,
pp.99 et seq.
* John P. Ravilious
Don Stone
Robert de Courtenay as "queen's kinsman") provide some evidence in favor of
the traditional French origin of the Devon Courtenays, which origin Herbert
Seversmith tried to debunk?
-- Don Stone
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post.
Peter and John withstanding, I believe this particular Robert de
Courtenay was French, not English. I believe the citation in Calendar
of Documents Relating to Scotland will bear this out. Hopefully
someone can find the item in question for us and post it.
The early Courtenays are a mess. As I recall, the Courtenay table in
Europaische Stammtafelm is poorly done. I don't trust anything
written on the early Courtenays, unless I have the documentation in my
own hands.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
don....@verizon.net (Don Stone) wrote in message news:<3E06BA3A...@verizon.net>...
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 3:07 AM
Subject: Re: Robert de Courtenay, kinsman of Queen Isabel of Angouleme
> Dear Don ~
>
> Thank you for your good post.
>
> Peter and John withstanding, I believe this particular Robert de
> Courtenay was French, not English. I believe the citation in Calendar
> of Documents Relating to Scotland will bear this out. Hopefully
> someone can find the item in question for us and post it.
Dear Douglas,
I have this Robert de Courtenay also as an Englishman, but, especially in
those days, he probably was more French, after all when his father's parents
are the French Milo/Miles, Seigneur de Courtenay, and Ermengarde de Nevers,
and his half-sister, Elisabeth, is married to Pierre de France, Seigneur de
Courtenay, son of Louis VI, King of France?
He was possibly, probably, born in France and came to England where he
married a woman of Scottish origin which was probably another reason to stay
in England. The only thing I wonder is why did the title of Seigneur de
Courtenay go to the husband of his half-sister? Was it because she was of
their father's first marriage and he from the second?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Stewart, Peter
The usual story goes that Renard de Courtenay, who at his death was lord of
Sutton in Berkshire, had been seigneur of Courtenay until ca 1150 when he
was deprived of his possessions in France and fled to England. This is not
well-founded and has been questioned, notably by Seversmith whose reasons
have been summarised here by Kay Allen.
According to some proponents of this dubious history, Renard's first wife
was Helvis, sister of Guy du Donjon, and she was supposedly the mother of
his daughter Elisabeth who was given the Courtenay lands instead of her
brothers after her father's departure and married Louis VI's son Pierre
(they were the maternal grandparents of Queen Isabel of Angoulême). Renard
is said to have married as his second wife Maud, dame of Le Sap, daughter of
Robert fitz Edith (King Henry I's bastard son by Edith de Greystoke) & Maud
d'Avranches, dame of Le Sap. This is the version given by CP.
However, Patrick van Kerrebrouck [in _Les Capétiens 987-1328_, Nouvelle
histoire généalogique de l'auguste maison de France II (Villeneuve d'Ascq,
2000)] gives a different genealogy & chronology for Elisabeth de Courtenay's
mother which would preclude this. He bases the statement on G Estournet's
article 'Les seigneurs du Donjon', part 3 (famille de Corbeil) in _Annales
de la Société historique et archéologique du Gâtinais_ 38 (1926).
Kerrebrouck didn't provide details: I am gradually turning to stone &
eroding at the edges while waiting for a copy of the article he cited, from
the Bibliothèque nationale's reliable but glacially slow copy service. If
Estournet had proved the point, this wouldn't necessarily exclude another
link of kinship between Robert de Courtenay and Queen Isablelle.
Meanwhile, I am still interested to hear from Douglas Richardson on what
grounds he believes "this particular Robert de Courtenay was French, not
English" and that "the citation in Calendar of Documents Relating to
Scotland will bear this out". I trust this is something more than a mere
hunch on his part. Of course, ES has nothing of value to contribute in the
matter of evidence - and as for accuracy, it is not much good for any French
lineages, even less English ones.
Peter Stewart
Cristopher Nash
Before we go too far, I've the strong sense that Douglas and others
here may be writing of different Robert de Courtenays. Douglas' is
>Robert de Courtenay who was called "queen's kinsman." . . . Sheriff
>of Cumberland in 1203-4, and died shortly before Michaelmas 1210.
>He married Alice, widow of Gilbert Pipard, and daughter of William
>Fitz Duncan of Scotland, by Alice, daughter and co-heiress of
>William le Meschin...He
>left no issue.
I'm not convinced - though I may be wrong - that John is writing of
the same Robert throughout his posting, and that a conceivable
confusion may infect other messages on this thread as well.
Might the Robert to whom John refers - in his chart though
conceivably not the one described in his first paragraph? - possibly
be Robert who d. 26 Jul 1246 and m. Mary de Reviers, and had by her
John de Courtenay who m. Isabel de Vere? The ancestry of this Robert
remains problematical. Some of the suggested names - and problems -
are outlined by Peter Stewart, though his taking Douglas' Robert to
be the one whose possible parents he names suggests to me that
there's a muddle here. But on chronological grounds if nothing else
I think some sorting needs to be done before we conflate Douglas' and
John's (and Peter's). Or at the very least, how they are the same
needs to be shown....
Cris
--
messager
Robert de Courtenay
Fils de Empereur Pierre de Courtenay II de Constantinople (1172 - 1218)
et de Impératrice Yolande de Hainaut de Constantinople (1176 - 1219).
Il fut grand bouteiller.
1. Empereur Robert de Courtenay de Constantinople (de Robert de Courtenay).
==================================================
Robert De Courtenay
b 1285, Of, Okehampton, Devonshire, England Renaud 'Reginald' Seigneur
Courtenay >
Robert De Courtenay, [Sir Knight] Hawise De Curcy >
John De Courtenay b 1170 William Reviers, [Earl of Devon] >
| b 1218 Mary De Reviers Mabel De Beaumont, [Countess] >
Hugh De Courtenay, [Sir Knight] d 03 May 1274 b 1196 Robert De Vere >
|b 25 Mar 1248 | Hugh De Vere, [Earl of Oxford] Isabel Bolebec >
|d 28 Feb 1291 Isabel De Vere b 1184 Saher IV De Quincy, Earl >
| b 1222 Hawise De Quincy, Countess Margaret De Beaumont >
Robert De Courtenay d AFT FEB 1298 1299 b 1178 Thurston Le Despencer
>
| Thomas Despencer Mrs-Thurston Le Despencer
| Hugh Le Despencer b 1169
| |b 1197 Mrs-Thomas Despencer
Eleanor Le Despencer d 23 Feb 1238 b 1172
b 1240 |
d 30 Sep 1328 Mrs-Hugh Le Despencer
==============================================================
Robert de COURTENAY
Baron of Oakhampton
Born: 1183? Died: 1242
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Wife: Mary de VERNON (REDVERS; de REVIERS)
Possible Children: John de COURTENAY , Hawise de COURTENAY
( Alternative Father of Possible Children: Robert de COURTENAY )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
______ ______ ______ ______ ______ ______ ______ ___ ___ ___
/ -- Jocelin de COURTENAY + ====> [2]
/ -- Milo (Sire) de COURTENAY (1064? - 1127+)
/ \ -- Elizabeth de MONTLHERY + ==&&=> [129 ,,,q]
/ -- Renaud (Reinald Reginald) de COURTENAY
/ \ -- Ermengarde de NEVERS + ==&&=> [145 ,H]
/ -- Renaud (Reginald; II) de COURTENAY
| \ / -- Frederick (Sire) du DONJON + ==&&=> [130 ,,,q]
| \ -- Hedwig du DONJON (1113? - 1158)
| \ | or: Maud FitzEDITH
/ \ -- (Miss) CORBEIL + ==&&=> [130 ,,,q]
-- Robert de COURTENAY
\ / -- William de COURCY (CURCY) (1090? - 1162?)
\ -- Hawise (Avis) de COURCY (Devons. 1140? - 1219)
\ / -- Rualon d' AVRANCHES + ==&&=> [144 ,GC,,t]
\ -- Maud d' AVRANCHES (? - 1173)
\ -- Maud de MONVILLE + ==&&=> [146 ,h]
| OR: (NN) de DOL + ====> [3]
=====================================================
Guillaume le Meschin DE BRIQUESSART [Parents] "le Meschin" est né environ
1085 à Skipton-in-Craven Yorkshire UK. Il est décédé en 1138. le Meschin a
épousé Cécile DE ROMILLY.
Cécile DE ROMILLY [Parents] est née environ 1100. Elle a épousé Guillaume le
Meschin DE BRIQUESSART.
Ils ont eu les enfants suivants:
F i Maud ou Mathilde DE BRIQUESSART est née environ 1126, et est décédée
après 1190.
F ii Avicie DE BRIQUESSART est née environ 1120.
=============================================
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> a écrit dans le message de
news: 5cf47a19.02122...@posting.google.com...
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Sometime ago, I came across a reference to
Robert de Courtenay who was called "queen's kinsman."
>
> The Robert de Courtenay in question was Sheriff of Cumberland in
> 1203-4, and died shortly before Michaelmas 1210. He married Alice,
> widow of Gilbert Pipard, and daughter of William Fitz Duncan of
> Scotland, by Alice, daughter and co-heiress of William le Meschin
>
> E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Don Stone
> Dear Don ~
>
> Thank you for your good post.
>
> Peter and John withstanding, I believe this particular Robert de
> Courtenay was French, not English. I believe the citation in Calendar
> of Documents Relating to Scotland will bear this out. Hopefully
> someone can find the item in question for us and post it.
I have access to these volumes at the University of Pennsylvania library, but
I couldn't find Robert de Courtenay or de Cortenay in the index to any of the
four volumes.
Can you supply a volume and page reference?
-- Don Stone
Don Stone
> I have access to these volumes at the University of Pennsylvania
> library, but
> I couldn't find Robert de Courtenay or de Cortenay in the index to any
> of the four volumes.
Then Doug Richardson wrote (in private email):
> The reference may be hiding under the name Curtenay.
And indeed it was.
The relevant item is number 64, dated circa 1275, beginning on p. 15 of vol. 2
(1884) of _Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland preserved in Her
Majesty's Public Record Office, London_, edited by Josepth Bain. This is a
memorandum regarding the descendants of Waldeve lord of Allirdale, younger
brother of Gospatrick (II.) and Dolfin, and of his nephew William fitz-Duncan
earl of Murray.
[p. 16] "And William fitz Duncan, formerly earl of Murreve [Moray] nephew of
said Alan, begotten of Etheldreda sister of his father Waldeve, succeeded to
Alan.
The said William held the whole barony of Allerdale, except Palmcastr'... and
the said William... espoused Alicia de Rumeley daughter of Robert de Rumeley
lord of Scyptona...
The said William begot of his said wife William 'the Boy of Egermund' who
died in minority; and three daughters, the first of whom, Cecilia, was
married, with the honour of Scyptona to William the Gross earl of Albemarle...
the second, Amabillis, was married to Reginald de Lucy with the honour of
Egermund... the third, viz., Alicia de Rumeley, was married to Gilbert Pypard
of the K.'s household, with the Honour of Cokermu, by the K. in her minority.
William fitz Duncan's son thus dying in minority, the three
[p. 17] daughters were in ward of K. Henry, grandfather of K. Henry [III.] who
now lately was. The eldest.... The second.... The third was married by the
K. to Gilbert Pypard, who died without an heir; and the K. H[enry II.] died,
and Richard his son was afterwards created King and went to the Holy Land.
And Queen Elyanora his mother married the said Alicia to Robert de Curtenay,
knight, her 'cognatus,' who held the whole Barony of Allerdale all K.
Richard's life, and in K. J[ohn's] time, until he died without an heir.
[Tower Miscellaneous Rolls, No. 459/3.]"
Note that this summary doesn't say that Robert de Curtenay came from France,
just that he was related to Queen Elyanora (who came from France). Is there
reason to believe that there is more information about his origin in the
original document?
Interestingly, in vol. 1 (1881), p. 80, item 473 (dated circa May 9, 1210) is
as follows.
"Essoins of illness (malo lecti) in three weeks after Easter. Cumberland:--
Alicia, wife of Robert de Curtenai, at Sutton in Berkshire, _versus_ Richard
de Lusci, in a plea of land, by John de Abbendon and Williot de Montibus. It
remains _sine die_ on account of Robert de Curtenay's transfretation. [Coram
Rege, 11 John, No. 41, m. 3, dorso.]"
Sutton, Berkshire, is identified with the Courtenays who were later settled in
Devon.
-- Don Stone
Stewart, Peter
> From: Don Stone [mailto:don....@verizon.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2003 13:38
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Robert de Courtenay, kinsman of Queen Isabel of Angouleme
>
>
> And Queen Elyanora his mother married the said Alicia to
> Robert de Curtenay, knight, her 'cognatus,' who held the
> whole Barony of Allerdale all K. Richard's life, and in
> K. J[ohn's] time, until he died without an heir.
> [Tower Miscellaneous Rolls, No. 459/3.]"
>
> Note that this summary doesn't say that Robert de Curtenay
> came from France, just that he was related to Queen
> Elyanora (who came from France). Is there reason to
> believe that there is more information about his
> origin in the original document?
And is there reason to believe without seeing the original text that he was
actually childless, rather than just that he died without an heir to
Allerdale, by Alicia? Failing that, I can see nothing here to overturn the
usually accepted realtionships of this Robert de Courtenay which I posted
earlier.
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
Thanks for posting this citation for the newsgroup. Much
appreciated. Question now is: How was Robert de Courtenay related to
Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine? Anyone want to venture a guess?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Don Stone <don....@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<3E1B8F10...@verizon.net>...
David Paul Meyer
AR7 shows Alice de Rumilly, d. 1187, wife of William fitz Duncan, was the daughter of William le Meschine, d. 1120 and Cecily, d. 1151/5, daughter of Robert de Rumilly, d. abt.1096 citing CP VIII 247-248; SPI 2-3; Dunbar 282; NEHGR 96:93, Sanders, 142.
This document (below) seems to say that Alice was the sister of Cecily rather than her daughter.
I'm a bit leery to make a correction to AR7 as the chronology seems to be problematic; it would seem a little unlikely that a daughter would die 91 years after her father.
I would appreciate the opinions of others.
Thank you!
Yours truly,
David
At 02:37 AM 01/08/2003 +0000, Don Stone wrote:
>Don Stone wrote:
>>I have access to these volumes at the University of Pennsylvania library, but
>>I couldn't find Robert de Courtenay or de Cortenay in the index to any of the four volumes.
>
Chris Phillips
David Paul Meyer wrote:
> AR7 shows Alice de Rumilly, d. 1187, wife of William fitz Duncan, was the
daughter of William le Meschine, d. 1120 and Cecily, d. 1151/5, daughter of
Robert de Rumilly, d. abt.1096 citing CP VIII 247-248; SPI 2-3; Dunbar 282;
NEHGR 96:93, Sanders, 142.
> This document (below) seems to say that Alice was the sister of Cecily
rather than her daughter.
> I'm a bit leery to make a correction to AR7 as the chronology seems to be
problematic; it would seem a little unlikely that a daughter would die 91
years after her father.
There was some discussion of this in April 2002 by Leo van de Pas, J. C. B.
Sharp and Tim Powys-Lybbe. Tim quoted Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, as
follows:
<<
From Clay's (superb) Early Yorkshire Charters Alice de Rumilly, d. bef
March 1187, is the grand-daughter of Robert de Rumilly who was living
1094-96. Alice's father was William Meschin, lord of Copeland, living
1130, d. bef. 1135; her mother was Cecily de Rumilly, lady of Skipton,
d. c. 1151-55; Cecily was the dau. of Robert.
>>
(The Complete Peerage just calls William FitzDuncan's wife "Alice DE
RUMILLY", which sounds as though she should be the daughter of Robert de
Rumilly, unless she took her mother's surname.)
K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, pp. 674, 675, 880 (2002), also
makes Alice the granddaughter of Robert. As well as Clay, she cites (in the
article on Robert) Farrer, Honors and Knights' Fees i 129 and Sanders,
English Barones, 142.
Chris Phillips
Don Stone
> Dear Don ~
>
> Thanks for posting this citation for the newsgroup. Much
> appreciated. Question now is: How was Robert de Courtenay related to
> Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine? Anyone want to venture a guess?
The citation I transcribed below states that Robert de Courtenay was
"cognatus" of Queen Eleanor. I have cast around for possible common ancestors
of these two, assuming (for the sake of argument) that Robert is the son of
Renaud de Courtenay and his second wife Maud, daughter of Robert Fitz Edith
(illegitimate son of King Henry I). The nearest common ancestor I found was
Arlette/Herleve of Falaise (through whom Robert and Eleanor are half fourth
cousins, being descended from sons of Arlette/Herleve who had different
fathers). Leo van de Pas or Ian Fettes may be able to check their databases
and find a closer relationship. Incidentally, I don't think that a closer
relation can be found even if one assumes (for the sake of argument) that
Robert de Courtenay is descended from Milo de Courtenay.
I wonder whether "cognatus" could mean relative by marriage in the cited
document. If the parentage assumed above for Robert de Courtenay is correct,
then he would be a half second cousin of the reigning monarch at the time,
King Richard, based on their common descent from King Henry I.
-- Don Stone
Don Stone <don....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:<3E1B8F10...@verizon.net>...
[snip]
>The relevant item is number 64, dated circa 1275, beginning on p. 15 of vol. 2
>(1884) of _Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland preserved in Her
>Majesty's Public Record Office, London_, edited by Josepth Bain. This is a
>memorandum regarding the descendants of Waldeve lord of Allirdale, younger
>brother of Gospatrick (II.) and Dolfin, and of his nephew William fitz-Duncan
>earl of Murray.
[snip]
Leo van de Pas
ancestor.
Leo
Betty Owen
attention until I was doing some reading.
Did King John bed his niece and murder his nephew?
the Niece's name was it Eleanor? Was there any offspring?
Betty
-----
.:Nichol:.
I'm assuming that King John's nephew and niece you are speaking of
were Arthur of Brittany and his sister Eleanor "The Pearl" of
Brittany, the children of Geoffrey Plantagenet, John's elder brother,
and his wife Constance, Duchess of Brittany. Arthur, who was born
posthumously in 1187, was the heir by primogeniture of his uncle King
Richard I the Lionhearted, but on his deathbed King Richard chose John
to be his successor. Arthur conveniently disappeared in 1203 after
rebelling against his uncle John, and Eleanor was held captive in
Corfe Castle until her death in 1241. As far as I know, there was no
hanky-panky going on between King John and his niece Eleanor, though
goodness knows he's been accused of worse.
.:Nichol:.