Lady Godiva
Leo van de Pas
Alfgar (died about 1059/1062) married Elfgifu and they had four children
1. Ealdgyth married (I) Gruffydd ap Llewelyn (2) King Harold II-----by her 1st husband ancestress of many
2. Edwin
3. Morcar
4. an unnamed son
------------------------------------
I found a reference indicating that there is a reputed line of descend from Lady Godiva. Somehow the link has to be entered somewhere amongst the following line:
Harold de Vaux, born about 1065
/
Hubert de Vaux, born about 1091, married Grace/Grecia
/
Robert de Vaux, married Ada d'Engaine
/
Sir Herbert de Vaux, married Grace
/
Beatrice de Valle/de Vaux, married Sir William de Briwere
/
Grace de Briwere, married Reginald de Braose.
The indication I found was that Grace de Briwere descended via her mother from Lady Godiva.
Would anyone know how that link clould go?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Dana S. Leslie
copied this. HTH.
--
Blessed Be,
Dana
D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLe...@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
"Leo van de Pas" <leov...@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.354.11869106...@rootsweb.com...
Dana S. Leslie
know if Ulf Godwinsson is the son of Ealdgyth, or of Eadgyth Swan-neck,
Harold's other partner? The source I had was confused on this point. Thank
you.
Dana
>"Leo van de Pas" <leov...@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
>news:mailman.354.11869106...@rootsweb.com...
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsle...@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:uMFvi.204483$LE1.1...@newsfe13.lga...
CE Wood
Lady GODIVA & LEOFRIC III
|
|
AELFGAR & AELFGIFU
|
|
AELDGYTH AElfgarsdottir & GRUFFYDD ap Llywelyn
|
|
NESTA ferch Gruffydd & OSBERN FitzRichard
|
|
NESTA ferch Osbern & BERNARD de Neufmarché
|
|
SYBIL de Neufmarché & MILES FitzWalter
|
|
BERTA FitzMiles of Gloucester & WILLIAM II de Braose
|
|
WILLIAM III de Braose & MATILDA de St. Valéry Lady of la Haie
|
|
REGINALD de Braose Lord of Abergavenny & GRACIA de Briwere
CE Wood
WJhonson
Very little is known about the immediate family of Lady Godiva.Godgifu of Backnall died in 1080, I don't know her parents, but about 1030 she married Leofric, Ealdorman of Mercia. It appears there was at least one son, Alfgar, the Saxon, Ealdorman of Mercia.
Alfgar (died about 1059/1062) married Elfgifu and they had four children
1. Ealdgyth married (I) Gruffydd ap Llewelyn (2) King Harold II-----by her 1st husband ancestress of many
2. Edwin
3. Morcar
4. an unnamed son >>
---------------------------
A chronologic problem may be present if we can believe
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2,
Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
"Landrum", pg 503-508
Which states that this Nesta died in 1058. They state she was wife to Trahaern, Prince of North Wales (d 1081) and secondly Osbern, son of Richard FitzScrub. They also state that she was daughter of Griffith ap Llewellyn, Prince of North Wales who d 5 Aug 1063 and Editha, dau of Elgar, d 1059, Earl of Mercia.
They cite DNB. 2, 376
I do not know what article that is, my only viewable copy of DNB (1922) refuses to state the volume number :( (This time you can blame Ancestry not Google Books.)
At any rate, if true that Nest died in 1058 then she, in order to be mother to at least two children, must have been born *by* 1043 at the latest. Her mother Ealdgyth (Edith) must have then been born by 1029 and Edith's father Elgar (or Alfgar) by 1011 at the latest.
So this line shows us that either
A) the marriage date of "about 1030" for Lady Godiva is horribly wrong by at least two decades OR
B) Lady Godiva is *not* the ancestor of this line at all.
Will Johnson
Doug McDonald
> <<In a message dated 08/12/07 02:24:41 Pacific Standard Time, leov...@netspeed.com.au writes:
> Very little is known about the immediate family of Lady Godiva.Godgifu of Backnall died in 1080, I don't know her parents, but about 1030 she married Leofric, Ealdorman of Mercia. It appears there was at least one son, Alfgar, the Saxon, Ealdorman of Mercia.
>
> Alfgar (died about 1059/1062) married Elfgifu and they had four children
> 1. Ealdgyth married (I) Gruffydd ap Llewelyn (2) King Harold II-----by her 1st husband ancestress of many
> 2. Edwin
> 3. Morcar
> 4. an unnamed son >>
>
> ---------------------------
> A chronologic problem may be present if we can believe
> Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2,
> Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
> "Landrum", pg 503-508
>
> Which states that this Nesta died in 1058.
Every source I have states that she was BORN about 1058, not DIED. This fits fine.
Doug McDonald
TJ Booth
The 'Living Descents' information is indeed wrong, since Nesta didn't d. in
1058, she was b. abt then. Her mother Ealdgyth/Editha (still living at the
time of the 1086 Domesday census) was m. just a year or 2 before then.
You are nevertheless right that there is a chronology squeeze - all due to
Godgifu's traditional "b. 1010, m. 1030" dates. Perhaps Leo (who shows an
even later "b. 1020" on his website) is hoping some discussion/consensus can
move her dates back.
Wikipedia shows her "b. 990? - d. 10 Sep 1067", which almost makes sense. AR
notes her husband was thegn in 1005 (i.e. b. bef 985) and that he d. 31 Aug
1057, so he would have been at least 45 if he m. in 1030 and at least 82
when he d. The 1030 marriage date is probably calculated back from her son
Aelfgar being of age in 1051 - a dubious calculation if the other chronology
doesn't fit.
If one instead assumes Godgifu was b. say 1000, the chronology makes far
better sense and still fits the facts. Godgifu would still be 15 years
younger than her husband, but a more reasonable difference than 25 years. A
marriage date abt 1020 is then reasonable, allowing Aelfgar to be b. say
1022 (still of age in 1051). Ealdgyth/Editha could then be b. say 1040, so
her "abt 1057" Fitz Richard wedding becomes reasonable. The
Ealdgyth/Trahearn marriage you noted is unproven and doubtful so should be
excluded.
Leo has two descents on his website via Ealdgyth and Fitz Richard's
children. The traditional one he shows can be found well documented in AR
8th edition, lines 176A and 177 (there is also a line 176B which starts with
Trahearn, but no wife is shown nor is Ealfgyth mentioned). Leo also shows a
different line through Ealdgyth and Fitz Richard developed by John Ravilious
& Rosie Bevan in 2002.
Hopefully you and others can improve on these dates or document other lines.
Some have suggested a descent from daughter Erminhild, but apparently there
is little evidence.
Terry Booth
Chicago
----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
> <<In a message dated 08/12/07 02:24:41 Pacific Standard Time,
> leov...@netspeed.com.au writes:
> Very little is known about the immediate family of Lady Godiva.Godgifu of
> Backnall died in 1080, I don't know her parents, but about 1030 she
> married Leofric, Ealdorman of Mercia. It appears there was at least one
> son, Alfgar, the Saxon, Ealdorman of Mercia.
>
> Alfgar (died about 1059/1062) married Elfgifu and they had four children
> 1. Ealdgyth married (I) Gruffydd ap Llewelyn (2) King Harold II-----by her
> 1st husband ancestress of many
> 2. Edwin
> 3. Morcar
> 4. an unnamed son >>
>
> ---------------------------
> A chronologic problem may be present if we can believe
> Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2,
> Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
> "Landrum", pg 503-508
>
> Which states that this Nesta died in 1058. They state she was wife to
> Trahaern, Prince of North Wales (d 1081) and secondly Osbern, son of
> Richard FitzScrub. They also state that she was daughter of Griffith ap
> Llewellyn, Prince of North Wales who d 5 Aug 1063 and Editha, dau of
> Elgar, d 1059, Earl of Mercia.
>
> They cite DNB. 2, 376
> I do not know what article that is, my only viewable copy of DNB (1922)
> refuses to state the volume number :( (This time you can blame Ancestry
> not Google Books.)
>
> At any rate, if true that Nest died in 1058 then she, in order to be
> mother to at least two children, must have been born *by* 1043 at the
> latest. Her mother Ealdgyth (Edith) must have then been born by 1029 and
> Edith's father Elgar (or Alfgar) by 1011 at the latest.
>
> So this line shows us that either
> A) the marriage date of "about 1030" for Lady Godiva is horribly wrong by
> at least two decades OR
> B) Lady Godiva is *not* the ancestor of this line at all.
>
> Will Johnson
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 8/14/2007 7:26:49 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu writes:
Every source I have states that she was BORN about 1058, not DIED. This fits
fine.
Doug McDonald
--------------
Can you name one of these sources?
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 8/14/2007 10:06:53 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
terry...@sbcglobal.net writes:
Her mother Ealdgyth/Editha (still living at the
time of the 1086 Domesday census) was m. just a year or 2 before then
How is this known? There was only one woman mentioned as a landowner in
Domesday wasn't there?
WJho...@aol.com
Wikipedia shows her "b. 990? - d. 10 Sep 1067", which almost makes sense.
--------------
This is suspicious. Others claim that her exact death date is unknown.
WJho...@aol.com
Wikipedia shows her "b. 990? - d. 10 Sep 1067",
-------
Thanks Terry. Neither of these dates has standing.
EB1985 is tenuous merely stating fl c 1040-80
If they have a problem with the firm dating, I'm not sure that we can do
better than that without quoting primary sources. Leofric appears in the ASC so
I'll pull that out and have a look later today.
Will
taf
>
> Which states that this Nesta died in 1058. They state she was wife to Trahaern, Prince of North Wales (d 1081) and secondly Osbern, son of Richard FitzScrub. They also state that she was daughter of Griffith ap Llewellyn, Prince of North Wales who d 5 Aug 1063 and Editha, dau of Elgar, d 1059, Earl of Mercia.
>
Setting aside the chronological issue, is there direct attestation
that Nesta was daughter of Griffith ap Llewellyn by Eadgyth? What is
the earliest source that contains this linkage. Given the unique
Welsh culture of marriage and concubinage, these things cannot be
assumed.
taf
Hovite
wrote:
> Very little is known about the immediate family of Lady Godiva.Godgifu of Backnall died in 1080, I don't know her parents, but about 1030 she married Leofric, Ealdorman of Mercia. It appears there was at least one son, Alfgar, the Saxon, Ealdorman of Mercia.
>
> Alfgar (died about 1059/1062) married Elfgifu and they had four children
> 1. Ealdgyth married (I) Gruffydd ap Llewelyn (2) King Harold II-----by her 1st husband ancestress of many
> 2. Edwin
> 3. Morcar
> 4. an unnamed son
I recommend that you obtain a copy of "Anglo-Saxon Bishops, Kings and
Nobles" by W G Searle (1899). He summarized the information known
about Anglo-Saxon genealogies up to that time and carefully cited his
sources, which can therefore be checked. Unfortunately, most Anglo-
Saxon documents are blatant forgeries or subtle falsifications,
concocted to advance dubious or bogus claims to land, so the whole
area is a minefield for the unwary.
For what it is worth, Godgifu is said to have been the sister of
Thorold of Bukenhale.
Aelfgar is her only known child.
His children are listed as:
1. Eadwine, Earl of Mercia.
2. Morkere, Earl of Nothumbria.
3. Burhheard.
4. Eadgyth, twice married, with descendants.
5. ? Lucia, married Ivo Taillebois.
The surviving Anglo-Saxon charters are online at
http://www.anglo-saxons.net/hwaet/?do=show&page=Charters but watch out
for the "Comments" section which warns of the frequent spuriousness of
the documents.
Also worth a look is http://www.pase.ac.uk/content/search/search.html
but that site seems somewhat incomplete.
Doug McDonald
>
> In a message dated 8/14/2007 7:26:49 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu writes:
>
> Every source I have states that she was BORN about 1058, not DIED. This fits
> fine.
>
> Doug McDonald
>
>
>
> --------------
> Can you name one of these sources?
>
>
The sources I list are Ancestral Roots 7th edition, which I don't have
current access to, and the following post to this newsgroup,
which does not give that date, but does support the date:
******************
See Walter Lee Sheppard, "Are you a descendant of Lady Godiva", *National Genealogical Society
Quarterly*, vol. 50, no. 2 [June 1962], pp. 74-78, for details on the following:
1. Godgifu (Godiva) d. mid 1080s m. Leofric Earl of Mercia, d. 1057. Their son:
2. AElfgar Earl of Mercia m. AElfgifu. They had three sons and a daughter:
3. Aldgyth m1. Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, King of the Welsh, d. 1063. Their daughter:
4. Nest m. 1081 Osbern fitz Richard, of Richard's Castle. Their son Hugh was ancestor of the Says,
later Mortimers, later Talbots, of Richards Castle [CP IX:256-266, etc]. Nest and Osbern had a daughter:
5. Nest m. Bernard de Neufmarche.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
***************************************
Doug McDonald
D. Spencer Hines
Here is the entire exchange.
DSH
----------------------------------------------------
From: "William Addams Reitwiesner" <reitw...@stop.mail-abuse.org>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva dissected
| JKent...@aol.com wrote:
| >There seems to be a lot of folks going around in circles on this Godiva
| >bit.
| >Who are the children and grandchildren of Godiva that make all these
| >wonderful connections to Margaret de Braose and Hymphrey de Bohan?
| See Walter Lee Sheppard, "Are you a descendant of Lady Godiva", *National
| Genealogical Society Quarterly*, vol. 50, no. 2 [June 1962], pp. 74-78,
| for details on the following:
| 1. Godgifu (Godiva) d. mid 1080s m. Leofric Earl of Mercia, d. 1057. Their
| son:
| 2. AElfgar Earl of Mercia m. AElfgifu. They had three sons and a daughter:
| 3. Aldgyth m1. Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, King of the Welsh, d. 1063. Their
| daughter:
| 4. Nest m. 1081 Osbern fitz Richard, of Richard's Castle. Their son Hugh
| was ancestor of the Says, later Mortimers, later Talbots, of Richards
| Castle [CP IX:256-266, etc]. Nest and Osbern had a daughter:
| 5. Nest m. Bernard de Neufmarche. Their daughter:
| 6. Sibyl m. Miles fitz Richard, Constable of Gloucester, Earl of Hereford,
| d. 1143. Their daughter:
| 7. Bertha m. William de Braose.
| From there the lines are easy to trace.
| William Addams Reitwiesner
"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:f9ssmm$87o$1...@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
WJho...@aol.com
Meanwhile I've downgraded a few of the glaring statement on the Lady Godiva
page at Wikipedia.
The source for her exact death date, is just a single webpage which does not
adequately quote and cite it's own underlying source. Regardless of whether
that webpage may be viewed as a reliable source for some bits of data, it's
not a reliable source for something so specific without a source.
Perhaps another editor will come by and firm it up. I've also stated a page
to see if maybe I can detail the actual sources for her life. It seems like
they're a bit sparse.
I'm also a little unsure about the aleged Domesday reference. Some
commentators say it proves she was alive, and some say it proves she was dead. So
evidently its worded in some odd way.
Will Johnson
TJ Booth
Source is AR 8th Edtn Line 176A-4. References shown are Natl Gen Soc Quartly Vol 50 pp 74-78 + citations, Schwennicke ES Vol II,78. The line reads "Edith (or Aldgyth), seen at 'Doomsday' 1086, death date unknown; m (1) abt 1057, Gruffydd I Ap LLywelyn (176-2), slain 5 Aug 1063; m (2) prob 1064 Harold II (1B-23). By Gruffydd she had a dau NESTA (176-3), 177-2). By Harold she had a son Harold, seen at Doomsday 1086, later life unknown, and possibly King Harold's son Ulf.
Line 176-2 is Gruffydd I Ap Llywelyn which contains additional references including Dict of Welsh Biog, cit., p.312. CP VI, pp 451-453 are also noted.
I'm not up to disputing AR at present, but it is clearly a secondary not primary source.
Terry Booth
Chicago
----- Original Message -----
From: WJho...@aol.com
To: terry...@sbcglobal.net ; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
In a message dated 8/14/2007 10:06:53 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, terry...@sbcglobal.net writes:
Her mother Ealdgyth/Editha (still living at the
time of the 1086 Domesday census) was m. just a year or 2 before then
How is this known? There was only one woman mentioned as a landowner in Domesday wasn't there?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
D. Spencer Hines
for this one.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--------------------------------------------------------------
"TJ Booth" <terry...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.507.11871269...@rootsweb.com...
WJhonson
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Lady_Godiva#Primary_sources
I've just found why they were not married "about 1030"
It's in ASC (E) 1051 when Harold was outlawed and Aelfgar, son of Leofric is given the Earldom of East Anglia.
I hope we can all agree that a 20 year old boy would not be given an earldom of this size. So Godgifu, if she is his mother, had to be married prior to 1030.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
> Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2,
> Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
> "Landrum", pg 503-508
>
> Which states that this Nesta died in 1058. They state she was wife to Trahaern, Prince of North Wales (d 1081) and secondly Osbern, son of Richard FitzScrub. They also state that she was daughter of Griffith ap Llewellyn, Prince of North Wales who d 5 Aug 1063 and Editha, dau of Elgar, d 1059, Earl of Mercia.
>
> They cite DNB. 2, 376
> I do not know what article that is, my only viewable copy of DNB (1922) refuses to state the volume number :( (This time you can blame Ancestry not Google Books.)
>
>
--------------------------
Correcting my above to read
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2,
Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
"Koehler", pg 500
Will Johnson
WJhonson
Now that we've begun to lay out the actual primaries, look at what AR8 is claiming for the statement that Gruffydd (slain 5 Aug 1063) married Edith dau of Aelfgar...
They cite ASC no less than six times. But as you can plainly see for yourself
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Lady_Godiva
ASC in no way supports that anyone named Edith married Gruffydd.
All it shows is that Aelfgar and Gruffydd had an alliance.
I wasn't expecting that at all. There's certainly no need in line 176 to prove that someone named Aelfgar *existed*, the whole point is to prove that Edith was his daughter and this, so far, they fail to do in such an odd way, while citing authorities for that very fact, that it makes me very suspicious about what we'll find next !
Will Johnson
WJhonson
By going to the main page for this work on ancestry, if you scroll down, you will see the odd statement to "click on the volume" and then proceed to list a bunch of *names* not volumes. Each of these is actually one of the volumes, if you could them, there are 20.
So you can click on the second entry and then slowly find your way to page 376, on which page we find an article for "Bernard (fl 1093) of Neufmarche" which I'll go ahead and add to my Godiva page so we can all see what it says and more importantly what it doesn't.
Will Johnson
WJhonson
Setting aside the chronological issue, is there direct attestation
that Nesta was daughter of Griffith ap Llewellyn by Eadgyth? What is
the earliest source that contains this linkage. Given the unique
Welsh culture of marriage and concubinage, these things cannot be
assumed. >>
---------------------------------------------
To answer you Todd, I repost a posting by Clive West from 2005
Subj: Re: Nest wife of Osbert of Richard's Castle
Date: 6/10/05 10:41:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: cliv...@ukonline.co.uk (Clive West)
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Shinjinee wrote:
> The databases in www.stirnet.com have this lady, daughter of Gruffyd ap Llywelyn (d 1063) by his wife, later queen of Harold II, married to Osbert of Richard's Castle (b ca 1066), whose father Richard a Norman settler in Hertfordshire is said to be the founder of the Scrope family. Is this correct? [I understand based on reading sgm archive that her other marriage is probably fictional, although it would be through that marriage that Llywelyn Fawr would be able to very conveniently claim a descent from the only man to (briefly) rule all of Wales].
>
> If so, descendants of Leofric, earl of Mercia and his wife Godgifu and of Gruffyd ap Llywelyn can be traced among the many descendants of the Scrope baronial family.
>
Osbert fitzRichard of Richard's Castle certainly had a wife named Nest. Evidence for this is in charters 148 and 165 of the Worcester Cartulary (Pipe Roll Soc) where Osbert's son Hugo refers to his mother as Nest. The claim that Osbert's wife was the daughter of Gruffydd is based on a statement by Florence of Worcester that Bernard de Neufmarche was the son-in-law of Osbert and a statement by Gerald Cambriensis that Neufmarche married a granddaughter (also called Nest) of Gruffydd. The claim that Gruffydd married Aldgyth, the daughter of Aelfgar, son of Leofric and that she later married King Harold is reported (I think) only by Orderic Vitalis.
C N West
Osbern fitz Richard (fl. c.1066–1088), landowner, Richard's son, owned an estate abutting his father's during the latter's lifetime, including a large tract on the border probably reconquered from the Welsh by Earl Harold in 1063–4. Osbern added greatly to it under Norman rule: by inheritance from his father; by gift from King William, especially in Worcestershire and Warwickshire; by marriage to Nest, daughter of Gruffudd ap Llywelyn and Ealdgyth, Earl Ælfgar of Mercia's daughter, which seems to have brought him five valuable Mercian manors; and by taking manors as a tenant of the bishop of Worcester, the sheriff of Gloucester, and the earl of Shrewsbury. The last connection, with Roger de Montgomery, was perhaps the key to his success: it is striking that an apparently independent and wealthy baron was in 1085 in the earl's household.
By 1086 Osbern's manors straggled from the Welsh border as far as Worcester and Warwick, with outliers in Nottinghamshire and Bedfordshire; they were worth over £100 a year, more than three times his and his father's combined value in 1066. He was especially important in Worcestershire, where in the 1080s he was a judge alongside the sheriff and Geoffrey, bishop of Coutances, in a case between the bishop of Worcester and Evesham Abbey. He was also a benefactor of Worcester.
Osbern joined the Welsh marcher rebellion of 1088, but was not one of those whose calculations were complicated by property in Normandy and he was later loyal to William II, his honour of Richard's Castle passing on his death at an unknown date intact to his descendants.
C. P. Lewis
Sources
A. Farley, ed., Domesday Book, 2 vols. (1783) · John of Worcester, Chron. · F. E. Harmer, ed., Anglo-Saxon writs (1952), nos. 50, 116–17 · Reg. RAN, 1.10, 221, 230, 282 · C. P. Lewis, ‘The French in England before the Norman conquest’, Anglo-Norman Studies, 17 (1994), 123–44 · K. L. Maund, ‘The Welsh alliances of Earl Ælfgar of Mercia and his family in the mid-eleventh century’, Anglo-Norman Studies, 11 (1988), 181–90 · V. H. Galbraith, ‘An episcopal land-grant of 1085’, EngHR, 44 (1929), 353–72 · F. Barlow, William Rufus (1983) · F. Barlow, St Wulfstan of Worcester, c.1008–1095 (1990)
© Oxford University Press 2004–6
All rights reserved: see legal notice Oxford University Press
C. P. Lewis, ‘Richard Scrob (fl. 1052–1066)’, Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004 [http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/23505, accessed 14 March 2006]
Richard Scrob (fl. 1052–1066): doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/23505
Osbern fitz Richard (fl. c.1066–1088): doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/45588
WJhonson
At any rate, they relate a very interesting and scandalous story. Nest, wife or widow of Bernard de Neufmarche, Lord of Brecon, disinherited her son Mahel in this way:
It turns out that Mahel caught her lover coming from her, and beat and mutilated him. In revenge Nest went to King Henry declaring that Mahel was *not* the son of her husband Bernard, thus causing King Henry to make her other child Sybil the heiress of all Bernard's wealth.
He then married Sybil to Miles FitzWalter, Constable of Gloucester who was afterward made Earl of Hereford (cr 1141).
I have at least 6 lines from myself back to this firebrand.
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
in Aelfgar's DNB (1922) entry as well. They have scant authorities, but one
I've not read is Florence of Worcester's Chronicle.
It turns out there is a Google Books entry here
_http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz5GjYgC&dq=florence+of+worcester+chroni
cle&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=w8oeIPDK6X&sig=neyQXj1xQtaUj5pY_q8TIjoU
SAs#PPP9,M1_
(http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz5GjYgC&dq=florence+of+worcester+chronicle&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=w8oeIPDK6X&sig=neyQXj1xQta
Uj5pY_q8TIjoUSAs#PPP9,M1)
a translation by Thomas Forester
So either the statements of the marriage are in *there* or one more source
bites the dust.
Will Johnson
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
taf
> I'm slowly transcribing the ASC entries for Leofric here
>
>
> I've just found why they were not married "about 1030"
> It's in ASC (E) 1051 when Harold was outlawed and Aelfgar, son of Leofric is given the Earldom of East Anglia.
>
> I hope we can all agree that a 20 year old boy would not be given an earldom of this size. So Godgifu, if she is his mother, had to be married prior to 1030.
We cannot. AElfgar's sons were both given large earldoms at younger
ages. In naming AElfgar, he would have been appeasing the entire
family and their allies, and so the age of the earl himself is less
important that the political influence.
taf
taf
> <<In a message dated 08/14/07 11:11:53 Pacific Standard Time, farme...@interfold.com writes:
> Setting aside the chronological issue, is there direct attestation
> that Nesta was daughter of Griffith ap Llewellyn by Eadgyth? What is
> the earliest source that contains this linkage. Given the unique
> Welsh culture of marriage and concubinage, these things cannot be
> assumed. >>
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> To answer you Todd, I repost a posting by Clive West from 2005
>
> Subj: Re: Nest wife of Osbert of Richard's Castle
> Date: 6/10/05 10:41:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> To: GEN-MEDIEVA...@rootsweb.comShinjinee wrote:
> > The databases inwww.stirnet.comhave this lady, daughter of Gruffyd ap Llywelyn (d 1063) by his wife, later queen of Harold II, married to Osbert of Richard's Castle (b ca 1066), whose father Richard a Norman settler in Hertfordshire is said to be the founder of the Scrope family. Is this correct? [I understand based on reading sgm archive that her other marriage is probably fictional, although it would be through that marriage that Llywelyn Fawr would be able to very conveniently claim a descent from the only man to (briefly) rule all of Wales].
>
> > If so, descendants of Leofric, earl of Mercia and his wife Godgifu and of Gruffyd ap Llywelyn can be traced among the many descendants of the Scrope baronial family.
>
> Osbert fitzRichard of Richard's Castle certainly had a wife named Nest. Evidence for this is in charters 148 and 165 of the Worcester Cartulary (Pipe Roll Soc) where Osbert's son Hugo refers to his mother as Nest. The claim that Osbert's wife was the daughter of Gruffydd is based on a statement by Florence of Worcester that Bernard de Neufmarche was the son-in-law of Osbert and a statement by Gerald Cambriensis that Neufmarche married a granddaughter (also called Nest) of Gruffydd. The claim that Gruffydd married Aldgyth, the daughter of Aelfgar, son of Leofric and that she later married King Harold is reported (I think) only by Orderic Vitalis.
>
This is the crux - in Wales at this time, it cannot be automatically
assumed that the wife of a king is necessarily mother of the children
of that king. The Welsh were, effectively, polygamous.
As to the various secondary sources, I have no doubt that they show
this relationship without qualification, but we all know how this kind
of material gets propagated. Again, I would like to know the earliest
source that suggests this was the case - so far, we have the DNB,
which is a bit far removed from the time period in question.
taf
WJhonson
Also worth a look is http://www.pase.ac.uk/content/search/search.html
but that site seems somewhat incomplete. >>
--------------------
I've added the page Paul suggested on the Early Anglo-Saxon charters to my jump page, and actually found three charters that were helpful on this topic.
The above link however, on searches for Godiva, Godgifu, Aelfgar and Leofric turned up nothing on the family. Perhaps there's another way to search it?
Will
WJhonson
1. Godgifu (Godiva) d. mid 1080s m. Leofric Earl of Mercia, d. 1057.>>
---------------------
On this late death date for Godiva, is Domesday online somewhere?
I suspect very much that this last date is based on that, and ALSO is being used to pigeon hole her daughter in some odd way. I want to see exactly how the entry is worded to see why different sources are using it differently.
Thanks
Will
WJhonson
Again, I would like to know the earliest
source that suggests this was the case - so far, we have the DNB,
which is a bit far removed from the time period in question. >>
-----------------------
I've completed now, extracting the DNB(1922) for Leofric which you can read here
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Leofric%2C_Earl_of_Mercia
I've included exactly as they have it, some embedded, some at the end, all the authorities they cite.
Now I'm going to work on the DNB for Aelfgar his son (as stated as ASC) and her alleged son (so far finding no primary on that), which when done will appear here
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php?title=Aelfgar%2C_Earl_of_Mercia
Hopefully some others will be interested enough in the puzzle to look up some of the references to see what they actually say.
Will Johnson
WJhonson
---------------------------
Will I'm afraid you haven't yet gotten the hang of Google Books.
Here is the SHORT version of the link to "FLorence" of Worcester's Chronicle
http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz5GjYgC
However it doesn't look promising for the statement that Aelfgar was the son of Godiva at all, let alone whether he had a daughter who married Gruffydd.
Will
WJhonson
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Aelfgar%2C_Earl_of_Mercia
that Florence (or John of Worchester)'s Chronicle does NOT contain any statement that Aelfgar was the son of Godiva, nor that Aelfgar had a daughter or was even married.
It contains no statement that Aelfgar and Gruffydd were linked by any family ties.
It repeats that Aelfgar was the son of Leofric. A careful reading of the DNB for Godiva implies that Leofric was her second husband and that she was quite possibly a widow *at the time* that Aelfgar may have been living.
Still looking for any primary document that clearly states that Aelfgar was the son of Godiva, or that he had a daughter, or that Gruffydd was his son-in-law.
Will
WJhonson
Might I point out, that one of your missing sources for the DNB which simply calls it Vita Edwardi Regis by Luard can be viewed in snippet form here
http://books.google.com/books?id=QZQGAAAAQAAJ&dq=vita+edwardi+regis+luard&q=godiva&pgis=1
This search on "godiva" proves that the name is only mentioned *one single time* in that source, and then in no context as to her children or grandchildren for that matter.
So, one more source bites the dust. Anything left?
Will Johnson
Doug McDonald
Have you searched that Sheppard article for references to primary sources?
Doug McDonald
Bob Turcott
also the chocolate maker named his company after her!> From: mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> Subject: Re: Lady Godiva> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 14:56:35 -0500> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com> > WJhonson wrote:> > Will, excellent post aimed at the utter destruction of all life, etc.> > > > Might I point out, that one of your missing sources for the DNB which simply calls it Vita Edwardi Regis by Luard can be viewed in snippet form here> > http://books.google.com/books?id=QZQGAAAAQAAJ&dq=vita+edwardi+regis+luard&q=godiva&pgis=1> > > > This search on "godiva" proves that the name is only mentioned *one single time* in that source, and then in no context as to her children or grandchildren for that matter.> > > > So, one more source bites the dust. Anything left?> > > > Will Johnson> > Have you searched that Sheppard article for references to primary sources?> > Doug McDonald> > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
_________________________________________________________________
See what you’re getting into…before you go there
http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507
Hovite
It isn't finished yet, but Godgifu and Leofric are present. You need
this index page:
http://www.pase.ac.uk/pase/apps/persons/index.html
Then (for example) click on G, then select Godgifu, then "Godgifu 2 -
e/m xi (Wife of Leofric 49, fl. 1033x1038)"
One can only hope that the site will improve
Another source:
http://www.asnc.cam.ac.uk/old/pase/Level1/Level2/Level3/G.html#Godgifu
WJhonson
http://www.pase.ac.uk/pase/apps/persons/index.html >>
------------
Thanks Paul, now it makes perfect sense.
On this particular case, I note that the Pase site says that Charter S1223 states "Leofric comes and Godgifu his wife" (dating to 1033x1038) or at least they say this in the index. But then in the description they merely say "Leofric comes to Evesham..."
Frustrating!
Maybe there is some place where this charter is actually laid out in full?
Will
Hovite
> <<In a message dated 08/15/07 16:05:17 Pacific Standard Time, paulvhe...@gmail.com writes:http://www.pase.ac.uk/pase/apps/persons/index.html>>
>
> ------------
> Thanks Paul, now it makes perfect sense.
> On this particular case, I note that the Pase site says that Charter S1223 states "Leofric comes and Godgifu his wife" (dating to 1033x1038) or at least they say this in the index. But then in the description they merely say "Leofric comes to Evesham..."
>
> Frustrating!
> Maybe there is some place where this charter is actually laid out in full?
The original is in the British Library and it has been printed four
times, once by Kemble. Notice that it is regarded as of "authentic
basis" or "possibly authentic basis", which suggests that although it
may been altered somewhat, at least it isn't a blatant forgery. The
charters are being republished in "approximately 30 volumes", but
progress is slow, more details here:
http://www.trin.cam.ac.uk/chartwww/
WJhonson
You will be enlightened to know that this source is *also* online here
http://books.google.com/books?id=gWUNAAAAIAAJ
"The History of the Norman Conquest of England: Its Causes and its Results", by Edward Augustus Freeman
The likelihood that any significant information on the children of Godiva or the marriage of Leofric's son Aelfgar is in that work, is vanishingly small. But we have to satisfy those who wish to plumb every mentioned source (and will then still object anyway), in your mission which apparently is showing that there *is* no source for the connections.
Will Johnson
WJhonson
You will be enlightened to know that this source is *also* online here
http://books.google.com/books?id=gWUNAAAAIAAJ
"The History of the Norman Conquest of England: Its Causes and its Results", by Edward Augustus Freeman >>
---------------------
Will excellent find, but may I slightly correct you, the above link is only *one* of the volumes.
Freeman, an "exceedingly boring individual at cocktail parties", wrote his History over many volumes. Many.... Many.
At any rate see here
http://books.google.com/books?q=editions:0sT52LcaIY_XYHZJ64TWlXJ&id=5WQNAAAAIAAJ
Will Johnson
TJ Booth
There was an extended discussion of this general topic in 2002.
Especially relevant is the following post by taf, which states ' AElfgar was
already witnessing charters in 1044, setting a limit
on his birthdate, and hence on his mother's age.'
See http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2002-08/1030517870
No primary source is noted, but I don't doubt the post, which would seem to
set Aelfgar's birthdate bef 1024 and thus Godiva's marriage bef 1023.
Terry Booth
Chicago
----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
> I'm slowly transcribing the ASC entries for Leofric here
>
> http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Lady_Godiva#Primary_sources
>
> I've just found why they were not married "about 1030"
> It's in ASC (E) 1051 when Harold was outlawed and Aelfgar, son of Leofric
> is given the Earldom of East Anglia.
>
> I hope we can all agree that a 20 year old boy would not be given an
> earldom of this size. So Godgifu, if she is his mother, had to be married
> prior to 1030.
>
> Will Johnson
John P. Ravilious
Dear Will, Leo, Todd, Terry, et al.,
In the listing provided in Domesday Book (1086) of the lands
of the Church of Coventry, in Stanley Hundred, there is a
description of the land of Binley. The text states in part,
"Aldgid, the wife of Grifin, held this land. The Abbey bought it
of Osbern the son of Richard " [1].
As I recall, it has been reasonably established that Osbern
was the husband of Nest, daughter of 'Grifin' (or rather, Gruffydd
ap Llywelyn). Unless the land of Ealdgyth in Binley were taken by
the (Norman) crown after 1066 and subsequently given to Osbern
fitz Richard, it would have presumably gone to Ealdgyth's heir.
She had no known issue by Harold II: the logical inference here
would be, Nest (wife of Osbern) was the daughter of Gruffydd ap
Llywelyn, by Ealdgyth, his known wife.
Chronologically, these generations appear to provide no
problem. Assuming Nest, daughter of Gruffydd (evidently by
Ealdgyth) was born say 1060, and married to Osbern fitz Richard
say 1075-1080, the gift of part of her lands in or before 1086
(possibly after her death - ?) by Osbern to the Abbey would
surely work. Nest, daughter of Osbern fitz Richard by his wife
Nest, born say 1075-1085 (as well as her siblings Hugh and
Cecilia), could well have then been married to Bernard de
Neufmarche and producing issue (at least a daughter Sibyl) say
1095-1105.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] William Reades, trans. Domesday Book, for the County of
Warwick (Coventry: W. Reader, 1835), p. 14:
' Ipsa eccl'a ten' BILVEIE. Ibi sunt iii hidae
T'ra e' viii car'. In d'nio e' una car' et iiii serui et x uill'i et
vi
bord' eu' v car'. Ibi viii ac' p'ti. Silua dimid' leu'u l'g' et una
q'rent' lat'. T. R. E. et modo ual' LX solid'.
Hanc tra' tenuit. Aldgid uxor Grifin. Hanc abb' emit ab 0' filio
Ricardi.
Ipsa eccl'a ten' in CONDONE iii virg' t'rae. T'ra e' ii car'.
Ibi sunt iiii uill'i et vi bord' eu' ii car' et i fiemo. Silua iii
q'r'
et xxx p'tic' l'g' et iii q'rent' lat'. Valuit et ual' xx solid'.'
This can be found online courtesy of Googlebooks:
* John P. Ravilious
On Aug 15, 8:11?pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> <<In a message dated 08/15/07 17:04:19 Pacific Standard Time, WJhonson writes:
> You will be enlightened to know that this source is *also* online herehttp://books.google.com/books?id=gWUNAAAAIAAJ
>
> "The History of the Norman Conquest of England: Its Causes and its Results", by Edward Augustus Freeman >>
> ---------------------
> Will excellent find, but may I slightly correct you, the above link is only *one* of the volumes.
>
> Freeman, an "exceedingly boring individual at cocktail parties", wrote his History over many volumes. Many.... Many.
> At any rate see herehttp://books.google.com/books?q=editions:0sT52LcaIY_XYHZJ64TWlXJ&id=5...
>
> Will Johnson
WJhonson
As I recall, it has been reasonably established that Osbern
was the husband of Nest, daughter of 'Grifin' (or rather, Gruffydd
ap Llywelyn). Unless the land of Ealdgyth in Binley were taken by
the (Norman) crown after 1066 and subsequently given to Osbern
fitz Richard, it would have presumably gone to Ealdgyth's heir.
She had no known issue by Harold II: the logical inference here
would be, Nest (wife of Osbern) was the daughter of Gruffydd ap
Llywelyn, by Ealdgyth, his known wife. >>
----------------------------------------
Actually John I hadn't even gotten as far as that generation.
My main issues are:
1) What source tells us that Aelfgar was son of Godiva, and
2) What source tells us that Aelfgar was married at all, let alone to a woman named Elfgifu, and
3) What source tells us that Aelfgar had a daughter who married Griffin.
So you see I'm a generation or two behind what you say above.
As I've detailed, so far, there *is* no primary source that says this.
I haven't read all the sources yet, but I really thought by now I'd find the primary one instead of finding silence.
Will Johnson
Hovite
> 5. ? Lucia, married Ivo Taillebois.
This daughter was obviously regarded as doubtful even by Searle, and
the sources he cited do not inspire confidence: "Ingulf", which
apparently means "Croylandensis historia Ingulphus", and "EAF ij 682",
which seems to mean "E A Freeman: The history of the Norman Conquest,
volume 2, 3rd edition, 1877, page 682". Neither of those are of any
value.
John P. Ravilious
In addition to Orderic Vitalis, we also have a statement by
William of Jumièges concerning the parentage and marriages of
Ealdyth. E. A. Freeman quoted William of Jumièges (vii. 31) in
stating that Harold Godwinsson married Aldith, daughter of Earl
Al[f]gar, after the death of her 1st husband Gruffydd:
" Grithfridi quoque conjugem Aldith, praeclari Comitis Algari
filiam, sibi uxorem junxit. " [1]
As I previously mentioned, the account of Orderic has noticeable
errors mixed in with facts. I'm not sure whether he drew part of his
version of the career of Ealdgyth from William of Jumièges, but
perhaps Todd and/or others would care to weigh in on the matter of his
reliability.
Cheers,
John
[1] E. A. Freeman, The History of the Norman Conquest of England
(Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1870), II:659
TJ Booth
Great job! Once you grab on you don't let go.
Does anyone know if all Domesday records been reviewed? The UK National
Archives has them online BUT you only see names and places on a search -
costs 3 1/2 pounds for a translation & photocopy (too small to read). Here
is what I found with different search keys:
Godgifu - 877 Domesday pages
Countess Godgifu (exact phrase) - 423 pages
Earl Leofric (exact phrase) - 226 pages
Leofric+Godgifu - 305 pages
Aelfgar+Godgifu - 205 pages
Earl Aelfgar (exact phrase) - 1178 pages
Osbern FitzRichard (exact phrase) - 432 pages
Osbern FitzRichard+Godgifu - 84 pages
Ealdgyth - 293 pages (Most pages look unrelated)
Ealdgyth+Gruffydd+Osbern - 25 (all have same list of names, so ..)
Ealdgyth+Gruffydd+Osbern+Leofric - 25 (did Osbern got all properties?)
Eadgifu the Fair (exact) - 382 pages
The search results are misleading. I bought the Warwick, Warwickshire page w
Binley in Stoneleigh hundred (owned by Church of Coventry). The translation
shows "Ealdgyth wife of Gruffydd held this land. The abbot bought this from
Osbern fitzRichard."). But the Earl Leofric shown in the search was for a
different property (owned by Bishop of Worcester) on the same page. Here's
the search record
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7609500
Some interesting Domesday records mentioned in Freeman 'History of Norman
Conquest' :
http://books.google.com/books?id=-IkJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA804 :
"In Warwickshire is a heading of "elemosinee regis" among which is Leofgifu
a nun ("Leveve monialis"), holds 3 hides which had belonged to Godgifu the
wife of Leofric, and five hides are held of the King in alms by one Eadgyth,
who had herself held them T.R.E." [so an Ealdgyth and a Leofgifu of
Warwickshire were living 1086, and the Ealdgyth had owned her land since
1066 - T(empore) R(egis) E(duuardi). Onomastically and the land association
suggests Leofgifu the nun might be another dau. given Leofric & Godgifu's
very religious family. The description of Eadgyth is consistent with her
having inherited property from Aelfgar (who d. "prob 1062" per the DNB on
your Aelfgar page) before 1066. UK Archives note it was highly unusual for a
person to own the same property under both Edward and after Domesday].
On page 803 another Eadgyth is identified, apparently m. to a Wulfram/Wuffa
with a son Aelfsige :
"One Wulfward (perhaps Wulfward the White, see above, page 745) held lands
of the Lady Ealdgyth both in Somerset and in Buckinghamshire. So did his
wife Ealdgyth or Eadgifu, 'Hoc manerium tenuit Eddeda de Regina Eddeva", and
directly after, "Hoc manerium tenuit Eddeva uxor Uluuardi" which shows how
the names Eadgyth and Eadgifu were confounded. Wulfward died after the
coming of William, and the Lady gave to his son-in-law Aelfsige the estate
which he had held of her, and two other estates of her own. In the Survey
Aelfsige holds all three, with these notes attached to each "Hac manerium
tenuit Eddid regina, et ipsa dedit eidem Alsi post adventum Regis W." "Hoc
manerium tenuit Wluulard reginae Eddid T.R.E. et ipsa dedit huic Alsi cum
filia Wluuardi." "Hanc terram sumpsit cum uxore sua." Aelfsige and his wife
were exceptionally lucky, perhaps out of respect to the memory of their
benefactress. But the widow of Wulfward did not fare so well. She still kept
one hide in Somerset, but her Buckinghamshire estate had passed to Walter
Giffard."
I presume a conflation of Ealdgyth and Ealdgifu the Fair has previously been
ruled out. A book review for the revised DNB on the DNB website(
http://www.oup.com/oxforddnb/info/dictionary/localhist/ ) notes "Domesday
Book, too, has been thoroughly exploited [by the new DNB] to shed light on
the great landowners of pre-Conquest England, some of them women. *Eadgifu
the Fair may have been King Harold's mistress; more certainly, she can be
shown to have been 'one of the richest English magnates at that time'.").
Since King Harold was renamed Earl Harold in Domesday (this from UK
archives), could his wife/mistress have been conveniently renamed as well?
Why would a mistress end up with so much land, if there was a second wife
that doesn't seem to have gotten much land?
Terry Booth
Chicago
----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
> <<In a message dated 08/15/07 18:00:15 Pacific Standard Time, therav3
> writes:
> As I recall, it has been reasonably established that Osbern
> was the husband of Nest, daughter of 'Grifin' (or rather, Gruffydd
> ap Llywelyn). Unless the land of Ealdgyth in Binley were taken by
> the (Norman) crown after 1066 and subsequently given to Osbern
> fitz Richard, it would have presumably gone to Ealdgyth's heir.
> She had no known issue by Harold II: the logical inference here
> would be, Nest (wife of Osbern) was the daughter of Gruffydd ap
> Llywelyn, by Ealdgyth, his known wife. >>
>
> ----------------------------------------
>
> Actually John I hadn't even gotten as far as that generation.
>
> My main issues are:
> 1) What source tells us that Aelfgar was son of Godiva, and
> 2) What source tells us that Aelfgar was married at all, let alone to a
> woman named Elfgifu, and
> 3) What source tells us that Aelfgar had a daughter who married Griffin.
>
> So you see I'm a generation or two behind what you say above.
> As I've detailed, so far, there *is* no primary source that says this.
>
> I haven't read all the sources yet, but I really thought by now I'd find
> the primary one instead of finding silence.
>
> Will Johnson
>
TJ Booth
I purchased another Domesday record, for Cambridgeshire, hoping it might
have more insight. The primary source summarized, per UK archives, would be
Great Domesday Book; Folio 194R.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7578344
The record was in pdf format which I printed but didn't save (dumb!), so I
will summarize and retype what seems most important. I cannot vouch for the
quality of the transcription or translation from Latin.
Essentially everything on the page had once been owned by Eadgifu (name
mentioned 18 times, including once as "Eadgifu the Fair"). Some of her
ownership is noted as TRE (from Edward's time), but one suspects it all
might have been. But at Domesday time, almost all the land was held by
"Count Alan" (noted to have 10 burgesses in Cambridgeshire). The properties
are identified as in Linton, Little Linton, Whittlesford Hundred, Thriplow
Hundred, Arringford Hundred and Bassingbourn. When Eadgifu owned it, she
held it by various means including providing 8 watchmen for the sheriff and
5 cartage-dues. A total of 32 sokemen are listed (UK Archives defines them
as "Freeman who nevertheless had to attend their lord's court." - presumably
they're like sharecroppers). Some of the Sokemen were noted as responsible
for providing the watchmen and cartage-dues.
The most interesting property is Bassingbourn where Earl Aelfgar is named,
it also has a high property value:
"Count Alan himself holds 7 hides and 1 1/2 virgates in Bassignbourn. There
is land for 18 ploughs. In demesne are 4 hides, and there are 5 ploughs, and
there can be two more. There are 8 villans and 11 bordars and 10 cottars
with 11 ploughs. There are 3 slaves, and 2 mills rendering 20s, and meadow
for 5 ploughs. In all it is worth 301; when received 261, and as much TRE
[i.e. same value in King Edward's time]. Eadgifu held this manor, and there
were 10 sokemen, and 8 of them, men of Eadgifu, could sell their land, but
the soke remained with her; and the other 2, the men of Earl Aelfgar,
provided 4 watchmen for the sheriff, and they themselves could sell their
land."
A preceding property in Arringford Hundred, is also of potential interest
because of the names :
"In Croydon Almaer holds 2 1/2 virgates under the count. There is land for 6
oxen, and there are 6 oxen, with 1 border and 1 cottar. It is and was worth
10s; TRE 15s. Godgifu [this is prob not Countess Godgifu, who seems usually
identified as such] held this land under Eadgifu, and could depart. In the
same vill Fulchei holds 1 virgate of land from the count. It is and was
worth 5s. Leofgifu [the nun?] held this land under Eadgifu, and could
depart."
Can anyone identify Count Alan or a possible relationship?
Terry Booth
Chicago Illinois
----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
> <<In a message dated 08/15/07 18:00:15 Pacific Standard Time, therav3
> writes:
> As I recall, it has been reasonably established that Osbern
> was the husband of Nest, daughter of 'Grifin' (or rather, Gruffydd
> ap Llywelyn). Unless the land of Ealdgyth in Binley were taken by
> the (Norman) crown after 1066 and subsequently given to Osbern
> fitz Richard, it would have presumably gone to Ealdgyth's heir.
> She had no known issue by Harold II: the logical inference here
> would be, Nest (wife of Osbern) was the daughter of Gruffydd ap
> Llywelyn, by Ealdgyth, his known wife. >>
>
John P. Ravilious
Re: the identification of Count Alan, he was one of the more
important tenants in chief of King William at the time of Domesday
Book (1086). He was a younger son of Eudo, count of Penthievre (also
designated 'count of Brittany'). He has been identified as one of the
few certain participants in the Battle of Hastings (or Senlac Hill as
your prefer). See Complete Peerage XII, Appendix L, p. 48.
Count Alan, also called 'Alan the Red', has no known
descendants. However, his younger brother and heir Stephen, lord of
the honour of Richmond (d. 21 Apr 1135) has myriad descendants,
including Ela of Salisbury (countess of Salisbury, wife of William
Longespee)), the Dukes of Brittany (from 1356 on), the Mowbray and
Howard Dukes of Norfolk, and far too many others to contemplate.
Cheers,
John
On Aug 16, 5:41 pm, "TJ Booth" <terryjbo...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Will,
>
> I purchased another Domesday record, for Cambridgeshire, hoping it might
> have more insight. The primary source summarized, per UK archives, would be
> Great Domesday Book; Folio 194R.http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp...
> > GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
TJ Booth
Thanks for your note - it helped steer me the right way. Here's some further
information and thoughts.
"Florence of Worcester" notes that in 1071, Aelfgar's sons Earl Edwin and
Earl Morcar revolted against King William, with Earl Edwin being killed by
his own people. http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz5GjYgC&pg=177
Subsequent to that event, about 1072 the King began 'dismantling' Earl
Edwin's properties - which were extensive and largely in Richmond - and
granted them to Count Alan 'the Red', who is believed to have accompanied
William in the invasion. See a discussion of this in Paul Dalton's
'Conquest, Anarchy, and Lordship: Yorkshire, 1066-1154' at
http://books.google.com/books?id=Nog9_GJqFZQC&pg=PA73&ots=fdzKEVxydc&sig=yc0-tpd8uxDf-1vdiBOcqnmMMRQ#PPA67,M1.
As you note, count Alan 'the Red' was the son of Eudo, count of Penthievre.
He apparently had a brother also named Alan ('the Black') who was granted
some of his brother's properties. A reasonable (but not perfect) facsimile
of Count Alan's dates and titles can be found in Doyle's "Official Baronage
of England" at http://books.google.com/books?id=DO8IAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA105. He
also appears in a chart in CP X, page 781, which shows him as 'Lord of
Richmond'. CP apparently states (not seen) he dsp. 4 Aug 1089, a late enough
date for his extensive land grants from King William to be shown in the
Domesday book .
I'd like to suggest that this identity of Count Alan 'the Red' establishes a
reasonable case that the property owned by Eadgifu/Ealdgyth in the time of
King Edward - which would have to be in the name of Earl Aelfgar's widow in
1066 since the Earl was by then dead (abt 1062 per DNB) - passed to their
son, Earl Edwin, sometime before 1071. The Domesday property record would
thus not only confirm the name of Edwin's father - Earl Aelfgar - but
confirm that the name of his mother (and Aelfgar's wife) was
Eadgifu/Ealdgyth. The Domesday record - if the translation can be verified -
would also seem to establish a prima facia case that the names Ealdgyth and
Eadigifu (perhaps 'the Fair') may be synonymous. This in turn would lend
increased support to the later secondary sources which claim that Aelfgar's
wife m. (or at least 'had a relationship with') (2), King Harold II who d.
in the Battle of Hastings.
I apologize for not having access to the primary source to confirm all the
details and spellings in the Domesday record as provided by UK Archives.
Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
TJ Booth
The paragraph below should read :
I'd like to suggest that this identity of Count Alan 'the Red' establishes a
reasonable case that the property owned by Eadgifu/Ealdgyth in the time of
King Edward - which would have to be in the name of Earl Aelfgar's
[daughter] in 1066 since both the Earl (abt 1062 per DNB) and Ealdgyth's
husband were dead. They then passed to [her] son, Earl Edwin, sometime
before 1071. The Domesday property record would thus not only confirm the
name of Edwin's [grand]father - Earl Aelfgar - but confirm that the name of
his mother was Eadgifu/Ealdgyth. The Domesday record - if the translation
can be verified - would also seem to establish a prima facia case that the
names Ealdgyth and Eadigifu (perhaps 'the Fair') may be synonymous. This in
turn would lend increased support to the later secondary sources which claim
that Gruffydd ap Llywelyn's widow m. (or at least 'had a relationship with')
(2), King Harold II who d. in the Battle of Hastings.
Terry Booth
Chicago Illinois
----- Original Message -----
From: "TJ Booth" <terry...@sbcglobal.net>
To: "GenMedieval" <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
> Chicago, Illinois
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John P. Ravilious" <the...@aol.com>
> Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
> To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
>> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
TJ Booth
an additional question :
One of the properties owned by Count Alan 'the Red' is described as : "Count
Alan holds another Linton (Little Linton). There are 2 1/2 hides. There is
land for 5 ploughs. In demesne (are) 1 1/2 hides, and there are 2 ploughs.
There (partly in margin) are 8 villans and 2 bordars with 3 ploughs. There
are 4 slaves, and 1 mill rendering 8s, meadow for 1 plough, (and) woodland
for 20 pigs. All together is worth 71; when received and TRE, 100s. Eadgifu
the Fair held this manor."
As previously noted, the name Eadgifu appears 18 times on this page from
Domesday. But this is the only entry on the page in which she is called 'the
Fair'.
Perhaps there are 2 Eadgifus - mother and (possibly) dau - with Domesday
intentionally distinguishing between them. Earl Aeflgar was d. abt 1062 (per
DNB), and Ealdgyth's husband(s) were d. by/in 1066, in which case both would
have been widows and recorded as property owners in Domesday.
So who is/are Eadgifu? Does the new DNB identify the origins of 'Eadgifu the
Fair' who owned so much property in Domesday?
Terry Booth
Chicago Illinois
----- Original Message -----
From: "TJ Booth" <terry...@sbcglobal.net>
To: "TJ Booth" <terry...@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
> Or perhaps Eadgifu was indeed Aelfgar's widow (called 'Aegifu' in AR), in
> which case this may have nothing to do with Ealdgyth.
>
> Is there any value to be found in this Domesday record?
>
> Terry Booth
> Chicago, Illnois
TJ Booth
Your initiative to document what is certain and what is improbable
aboutGodgifu and her alleged descendants is of great value to all of us -
thank
you.
Here are 2 items to add to the 'Chronicles of Florence' list of primary
source citations on your 'Aelfgar' page. These citations prove that Aelfgar
had a dau named Aldgitha/Eldgitha/Ealdgyth, and that
Aldgitha/Eldgitha/Ealdgyth m. King Harold.
p. 170 "Harold reigned nine months and as many days. The earls Edwin and
Morcar, who had withdrawn with their troops from the battle on hearing that
he was dead, went off to London, and sent off their sister, queen Elgitha,
to Chester . .
http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz5GjYgC&printsec=frontcover&ots=w8oeIPDK6X&sig=neyQXj1xQta#PRA1-PA170,M1
p. 456 "By his choice and gift, he [Edward King of England] was succeeded by
earl Harold, son of Godwin earl of Wessex, by Gytha, sister of Sweyn, king
of Denmark, father of St. Canute, the martyr. He [king Harold] had a son
named Harold by his queen Aldgitha, daughter of earl Algar: the same year he
fell in battle with William earl of Normandy, who succeeded him in the
kingdom."
http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz5GjYgC&printsec=frontcover&ots=w8oeIPDK6X&sig=neyQXj1xQta#PRA1-PA456,M1
Ealdgyth's marriage to Gruffydd ap Llywelyn is proven by Ravilious's 'aldgid
uxor grifin' Domesday record - a primary source. John Ravilious' below post
would seem to prove that Aldgyth and Ealdgyth were the same person. See also
the Freeman 'Conquest' link below where he translates Domesday's Latin as
stating that Ealdgyth the widow had d. bef 1086. This is consistent w
Osbern's inheriting her property bef 1086. Here also is her 1885 DNB entry:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ECsJAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:0_I3GqsM_cDsXU-fIuUbF_G#PPA245,M1.
Your great www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Sources#England
website let me search the index of Freeman's 'History of the Norman
Conquest' and find his 4 page genealogy from Leofric through the Nesta who
m. Bernard Neufmarche (albeit missing the Osbern/Nesta generation). Leo
might find Freeman's discussion interesting:
http://books.google.com/books?id=-4kJAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:0sT52LcaIY_XYHZJ64TWlXJ#PPA658,M1.
Freeman made much use of Domesday records, and provides answers to my 17 Aug
post questions about a Cambridgeshire record. He identifies 'Eadgifu' as
Aelfgar's widow (dying bef the 1086 census). He favors 'Eadgifu the fair' as
Eadgyth 'swan neck' Swannesha, but notes others have her as Aelfgar's widow.
Since Freeman, AR and others have apparently discovered no primary records
which show Godgifu's date of birth or date of marriage to Leofric, it seems
unlikely we will. But I also have not found any primary records which prove
Leofric had a first wife, or that support the view (myth?) that Godgifu was
previously married. Absent those, we are left with 2 primary source
statements - earl Leofric had a wife named Godgifu, and earl Leofric had
earl Aelfgar as a son. While these alone do not prove Godgifu was Aelfgar's
mother, the probabilities would seem to greatly favor Godgifu over any
unproven first wife or first husband theories. Consistent with this view,
and presuming a more reasonable birthdate for Ealdgyth of abt 1040, I would
like to suggest for group consideration that Godgifu's birthdate was "prob
abt 1000", rather than the AR Line 176A-3 est. of "prob abt 1010".
Perhaps you or others would conclude differently or have additional records
to contradict this.
Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois
----- Original Message -----
From: "John P. Ravilious" <the...@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
Dear Will,
Cheers,
John
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WJhonson
I note an Alan "The Black" as *son* of Stephen (d 1135), himself son of Eudo.
Will Johnson
Hovite
> Are you certain of this placement?
> I note an Alan "The Black" as *son* of Stephen (d 1135), himself son of Eudo.
>
> Will Johnson
The is a pedigree in the Complete Peerage, 2nd ed., vol. 10, page 780.
The family contained an abundance of Alans.
TJ Booth
brothers named Alan 'the Red' and Alan 'the Black'. The identification of
Alan 'the Red' - from Ravilious - is therefore correct. Ravilious cited CP
XII, Appendix L, p. 48 that Alan 'the Red' was one of the few certain
participants in the Battle of Hastings.
See the record for Alan 'the Red' and his 2 brothers at Doyle's 'Official
Baronage',
http://books.google.com/books?id=DO8IAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA105.#PPA105,M1. The
entries on this and the next page show 3 brothers - Alan (or Alain) 'the
Red', another brother Alan (Alain) nicknamed 'the Black', and Stephen. The
next page shows Stephen with a son Alan (or Alain) also nicknamed 'the
Black'.
The spellings, dates and titles seem questionable for some Doyle entries,
and Doyle doesn't identify Eudo as the brother's father. There is a chart at
CP X, p. 781 (not seen) that shows this family with more accuracy.
Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois
----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
> Are you certain of this placement?
> I note an Alan "The Black" as *son* of Stephen (d 1135), himself son of
> Eudo.
>
> Will Johnson
>
>
>
> In a message dated 08/16/07 18:26:05 Pacific Standard Time,
> terry...@sbcglobal.net writes:
> As you note, count Alan 'the Red' was the son of Eudo, count of
> Penthievre.
> He apparently had a brother also named Alan ('the Black') who was granted
> some of his brother's properties.
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
WJhonson
I'd like to suggest Ealdgyth, Aeldgifu and Edith are all the same name.
Then we have Eadgifu, the Queen of Edward I, who was King 901-924
And Aelfgifu (Elgiva) the Queen of Aethelred, King from 978 to 1013
And Ealdgyth (Aeglithia) the wife of Maldred and mother of Gospatric, Earl of Northumerland.
And don't forget St Aelfgifu the Queen of King Edmund, King from 941 to 946
All these women appear to be variations on the same underlying spoken form.
Will Johnson
WJhonson
Earl Aelfgar is outlawed, joins up with Gruffyd and they make war. They are then reconciled, then Aelfgar is outlawed again and disappears.
Meanwhile, back on the farm as we say, Gruffyd, supposedly Ealdgyth's husband, is "slain by his own men" 5 Aug 1063
And then Ealdgyth ends up a huge heiress married to Harold the King who himself dies 14 Oct 1066 at the Battle of Hastings.
If all of this is correct, then Ealdgyth had what we'd call a "rather tumultuous life" and someone should write a long romance novel about her, and make their fortune.
But wait! That's not all! as we say on Ronco television.
Aledgedly her *other* grandfather Sigeferth "a Danish nobleman" was murdered in 1015 and his widow also conveniently called Ealdgyth turns around and marries King Edmund "Ironside" who then dies a year later on 30 Nov 1016.
It all sounds a little too too much.
Will
taf
These names are not all the same, but unfortunately are sometimes
confused by Latin scribes.
Ead- and AElf- are distinct, and are likely to be the forms used here.
Eald-, although it appears in Ealdorman, is extremely rare in name
forms, and can be assumed to be an error for Ead-. Al- or El- were
late forms, actually derived from AEthel- but sometimes appearing for
AElf-. As to the second part, -gyth and -gifu are distinct. Edith is
thought to derive from Eadgyth.
We also have to bear in mind that the Anglo-Saxon naming patterns are
not what we are familiar with in other areas (although it has been
argued it is not what has been assumed in the other areas either). If
you look at the entire Wessex clan, there is very little duplication
of names until you get to the generation of Eadweard and AEthelred II,
named for distant predecessors (then AEthelred named children for
every one of the former kings of the family, in no particular order).
None are known to have been named for their maternal grandfather, and
rare are cases where a daughter is named for mother or grandmother. In
fact, we don't understand the patterns very well - in many cases, the
families seem to share one of the two name units with their prior
sibling (AEthel-stan, AEthel-bold, AEthel-red, then AElf-red), or with
a parent, and it seems more likely someone would generate a novel name
than use one from a kinsman. Thus stringing together pedigrees based
on the kind of patterns used to reconstruct a group of French counts
could miss the boat.
taf
TJ Booth
The story is found in the 1890 DNB entry for Godgifu (yes 1890 - because its
free online - don't know if it is repeated in the current DNB) at
http://books.google.com/books?id=qSYJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA36. It relies on Thomas
of Ely's 12th century 'Liber Eliensis' which identifies 'the widow of an
earl' named Godiva/Godgifu, who made large donations 'in prospect of death'
to Ely and Elmham churches. They were apparently recorded in letters to
Bishop Aelfric of Elmham and Abbot Leofric of Ely. DNB dates the letters to
1028-1029 based on a determination of the churchmen's overlapping years. DNB
then observes, "If this is our Godiva, it would follow that she recovered
from her illness of 1028-29, and that her union with earl Leofric was a
second marriage."
This snippet view of Blake's translation of 'Liber Eliensis'
http://books.google.com/books?id=R9gZAAAAIAAJ&dq=%22Liber+Eliensis%22+%22thomas+of+ely%22&q=godgifu&pgis=1#search
suggests a wider '1022-1029' range of dates and seems to exclude both earl
Leofric and earl Siward from involvement.
Does anyone have 'Liber Eliensis' to confirm the above? Are there good dates
for the 2 churchmen? Is there anything else linking the 2 Godgifus? Can the
marriage be rejected because the gifts were 'in prospect of death', and
there is no proof the woman ever recovered?
Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois
----- Original Message -----
From: "TJ Booth" <terry...@sbcglobal.net>
To: "GenMedieval" <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
> You are right, Stephen did have a son Alan 'the Black'. But he also had
> brothers named Alan 'the Red' and Alan 'the Black'. The identification of
> Alan 'the Red' - from Ravilious - is therefore correct. Ravilious cited CP
> XII, Appendix L, p. 48 that Alan 'the Red' was one of the few certain
> participants in the Battle of Hastings.
>
> See the record for Alan 'the Red' and his 2 brothers at Doyle's 'Official
> Baronage',
> http://books.google.com/books?id=DO8IAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA105.#PPA105,M1. The
> entries on this and the next page show 3 brothers - Alan (or Alain) 'the
> Red', another brother Alan (Alain) nicknamed 'the Black', and Stephen. The
> next page shows Stephen with a son Alan (or Alain) also nicknamed 'the
> Black'.
>
> The spellings, dates and titles seem questionable for some Doyle entries,
> and Doyle doesn't identify Eudo as the brother's father. There is a chart
> at
> CP X, p. 781 (not seen) that shows this family with more accuracy.
>
> Terry Booth
> Chicago, Illinois
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "WJhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
> To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 10:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
>
>
>> Are you certain of this placement?
>> I note an Alan "The Black" as *son* of Stephen (d 1135), himself son of
>> Eudo.
>>
>> Will Johnson
>>
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 08/16/07 18:26:05 Pacific Standard Time,
>> terry...@sbcglobal.net writes:
>> As you note, count Alan 'the Red' was the son of Eudo, count of
>> Penthievre.
>> He apparently had a brother also named Alan ('the Black') who was granted
>> some of his brother's properties.
>>
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
WJhonson
Is there anything else linking the 2 Godgifus? Can the
marriage be rejected because the gifts were 'in prospect of death', and
there is no proof the woman ever recovered? >>
---------------
Not commenting on the rest, but I think the above is slippery. Silence is not a great source to use for a proof.
Will
WJhonson
Aelfgar was outlawed the first time in 1055 see my extract of the A.C. in A.S.C. on
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Lady_Godiva
This is the time when he went to Ireland, got 18 more ships, and then went to Gruffydd in Wales and joined forces to counter-attack. Shortly after they all kissed and made-up and he was restored. Then a bit later his father dies and he succeeds to that Earldom as well or in exchange I'm not sure. Then he's outlawed again a bit futher on yet and drops off the earth.
Will
In a message dated 08/21/07 14:02:14 Pacific Standard Time, terry...@sbcglobal.net writes:
When Aelfgar relinquished his earldom in 1052, he wasn't really 'outlawed'.
TJ Booth
earlier 1051 'interim' earlship. But please note that Florence does not
identity Godwine's replacement as earl. The 'interim earl' is only
identified in Malmsbury (the eminent 12th century historian) :
Florence's statements on Godwine's banishment abt Sep 1051 are here and on
the preceding page :
http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz5GjYgC&pg=RA1-PA486&vq=godiva#PRA1-PA152,M1
Florence's statements on Godwine's restoration 'to his former honors' abt 15
Sep 1052 are :
http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz5GjYgC&pg=RA1-PA486&vq=godiva#PRA1-PA154,M1 .
Malmesbury's statement is "Godwin and Sweyn retired to Flanders, and Harold
to Ireland. His [Godwin's] earldom was given to Elgar, the son of Leofric, a
man of active habits; who, receiving, governed it with ability, and readily
restored it to him [Godwin] upon his return; and afterwards, on the death of
Godwin, when Harold had obtained the dukedom of his father, he reclaimed it,
though, by the accusation of his enemies, he was banished for a time." See
http://books.google.com/books?id=W2ANAAAAIAAJ&pg=coverpage#PPA220,M1
Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois
----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
WJhonson
"The Laud Chronicle (E) — 1048 [1051] "And then Odda was appointed earl over Devon, and over Somerset, and over Dorset, and over Cornwall; and Aelfgar, earl Leofric's son, was given the earldom which Harold had had."
Alan Grey
> I'd like to suggest Ealdgyth, Aeldgifu and Edith are all the same name.
>
Further to this name issue. These names have quite different roots, so
it could not be said that they were the same name. Also, I do not think
that "eald" is an error for "ead" as suggested in another post. It
appears instead that "Aeld" [=ield/o] and "eald" [=ield] are effectively
the same [eld/ild], and mean old/age, while "eald" as the additional
meaning of honoured/great/exhalted, which is why the latter appears in
the word ealdorman. The two roots were probably treated as varieties of
the same word. On the other hand, "gifu" [giefu] means gift, whereas
"gyth" [gehthu/githu] means care/anxiety/sorrow (and I've also seen
[gyth] given the meaning of strife, perhaps as an extension of [githu]).
Thus, I would say that Aeldgifu means "great gift" whereas Ealdgyth
means "great sorrow".
On the other hand, as [taf] said, Edith derives from the name Eadgyth.
The root "ead" means riches/happiness. Thus, the name is a
juxtaposition of two concepts: happiness and sorrow.
In summary, all three are different names.
Alan R Grey
Note that I have transliterated "š" as "th" in the above.
Sources: Clark Hall's, A Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary, Second Edition,
(1916) and Bosworth and Toller's An Anglo-Saxon Dictionary (1898) and
supplement (1921).
WJhonson
Thus, I would say that Aeldgifu means "great gift" whereas Ealdgyth
means "great sorrow". >>
This then would tend toward the argument that the ladies have been merged inappropriately. *Or* it would tend toward the argument that some contemporary and slightly-later writers, screwed up the name.
Of course that argument might wander into discussions of what original languages were being writen in, and whether they had such a distinction, and whether in the transmission some sloppy copyist had misplaced a letter.
Will
TJ Booth
The Laud Chronicle (E) event shown as 1048(1051) appears to be the same as
Florence's aft 15 Apr 1053 event "His [Godwins's] son Harold succeeded to
his earldom, and Harold's earldom was given to Algar, son of earl Leofric."
This appears much the same as the Florence page 155 citation on your
'Aelfgar' page,
http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz5GjYgC&pg=RA1-PA486&vq=godiva#PRA1-PA155,M1.
If Florence is correct in his dating, the date of the Laud Chronicle (E)
event would appear too early (or vice versa, Florence may be too late). But
both deal with Aelfgar's assuming Harold's earldom.
The Florence/Malmesbury 'temporary earldom' from Sep 1051 to Sept 1052
precedes the above. It also clearly deals with Godwine 's earldom while he
was still alive - the period when Godwine was banished to Flanders and
Harold went to Ireland. In Godwine's absence (NOT death), Aelfgar became
temporary earl of Godwine's (NOT Harold's) earldom. Citations for this are
in my prior post.
There may very well be no Laud Chronicle (E) record matching the
Florence/Malmesbury event of Sep 1051 to Sep 1052.
Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois
----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
taf
> WJhonson wrote:
> > I'd like to suggest Ealdgyth, Aeldgifu and Edith are all the same name.
>
> Further to this name issue. These names have quite different roots, so
> it could not be said that they were the same name. Also, I do not think
> that "eald" is an error for "ead" as suggested in another post. It
> appears instead that "Aeld" [=ield/o] and "eald" [=ield] are effectively
> the same [eld/ild], and mean old/age, while "eald" as the additional
> meaning of honoured/great/exhalted, which is why the latter appears in
> the word ealdorman. The two roots were probably treated as varieties of
> the same word.
Yes, but I don't recall ever having seen Eald-/AEld- used in an
authentic name, while Ead- is one of the most common roots. That is
why I suggested error. Do you know of an example? (I guess I should
check PASE)
taf
Alan Grey
Yes, PASE has AEldred, Ealdred, Ealdgyth, Ealdberht and a number of
others (sp. Ea- rather than AE-).
Alan
TJ Booth
event using different sources and different dates. The common threads are
that Godwin is alive in all sources, and all discuss the time when Godwine
fled to Flanders and Harold went to Ireland.
ASC dates the flight to Flanders to 1048, and states that Odda received
Godwine's earldom and Aelfgar received Harold's earldom. ASC dates the
return of Godwine and Harold to 1052, when "they gave his [Godwine's]
earldom clean to Godwine, and as full and free as he before possessed it,
and to his sons also all that they before possessed. . .
http://books.google.com/books?id=4jEIAAAAQAAJ&pg=page#PPA427,M1. Though
unstated, Aelfgar had to surrender his earlship in 1052.
Florence provides more specific dating of the event (the flight to Flanders
is Sep 1051, the return is Sep 1052 - the citations are in the post below)
but does not identify any interim earls.
Malmesbury gives no dating but contradicts ASC by stating that Aelfgar
assumed Godwine's (not Harold's) earlship and makes no mention of Odda (i.e.
earl Aethelwine, who d. a monk in 1056 according to Florence).
So Malmesbury was NOT the source of the ASC.
----- Original Message -----
From: "TJ Booth" <terry...@sbcglobal.net>
taf
> Yes, PASE has AEldred, Ealdred, Ealdgyth, Ealdberht and a number of
> others (sp. Ea- rather than AE-).
I forgot about Eldred, which was common. The others I don't recall
having come across, although there are even a couple of kings.
taf
Clive West
1. According to the chronicler Orderic Vitalis (c. 1075-11420):
"The Earls Edwin and Morcar, sons of the great Earl Aelfgar, were close friends and adherents of Harold (Godwin) and gave him help in their power; for he had taken to wife their sister Aldgyth. She had formerly been the wife of Gruffydd, a great Welsh prince and had born him Bleddyn and a daughter called Nest." (Historia Ecclesiastica Book III)
2. This is supported by the Domesday Book which shows the estate of Bilvaie (modern Binley, near Coventry) as belonging some time before the Conquest to "Algid uxor Griffin" (Aldgyth wife of Gruffydd). This estate later belonged to Osbert fitz Richard.
3. That Osbert fitz Richard had a wife called Nest is proved by two of his son's charters (148 & 165) where he refers to "patris mei Osberti et matris mee Nest" (Worcester Cartulary)
4. J.E. Lloyd in his "History of Wales" discovered that this Nest was the daughter of Gruffydd by comparing two sources: i) Florence of Worcester, (d. 1118) reported that Bernard of Neufmarche was the son in law of Osbert fitz Richard, while ii) the 12th century chronicler Giraldus Cambrensis reported that Neufmarche married Nest, the daughter of another Nest, who was the daughter of Gruffydd ap Llewellyn. (Itinerarium Cambriae. Chapter II).
Clive West
taf
> 2. This is supported by the Domesday Book which shows the estate of Bilvaie (modern Binley, near Coventry) as belonging some time before the Conquest to "Algid uxor Griffin" (Aldgyth wife of Gruffydd). This estate later belonged to Osbert fitz Richard.
>
I would be interested in opinion on this. Given the amount of
confiscation and regranting, I am not sure how safe it is to assume
that this serves as evidence that Nest was daughter of Gruffydd _by_
Aldgyth.
Of course, Osbert's father, Richard fitz Scrob, occupied an unusual
position, being a Norman in pre-Conquest England who appears to have
managed to maintain cordial relations with the English faction. This
may be one of those cases where the heiress was confiscated and
granted to Richard for his son, rather than the land.
taf
WJhonson
"Algid uxor Griffin" (Aldgyth wife of Gruffydd>>
I'd like the opinion of the prosopographers (or however you spell it) that the names Algid and Aldgyth are the same.
Will Johnson
WJhonson
If the heir truly only got one piece of land, it would seem poor results from such an apparently immensely wealthy heiress. In fact, if it can be shown that the land dwindled down to almost naught it would seem to argue *against* the connection rather then for it.
Although with all the tumult going on, not even that logic is secure. In addition, we must keep in mind, that even chroniclers can create relationships by working backward. So if I say so-and-so is my brother-in-law, and you know my wife's name, you might assume that my wife is his sister, when in reality, my sister is his wife; OR you heard me wrong.
Let's not forget that Orderic called Godiva Aelfgar's *wife* not his mother.
Will
taf
> <<In a message dated 08/22/07 11:51:10 Pacific Standard Time, clivew...@ukonline.co.uk writes:
> "Algid uxor Griffin" (Aldgyth wife of Gruffydd>>
> -------------------
> I'd like the opinion of the prosopographers (or however you spell it) that the names Algid and Aldgyth are the same.
Well, -gid and -gyth are the same. Al- in late Old English derived
from a contraction of AEthel-, (as in Almer or Elmer from AEthelmaer)
but it frequently appears in non-native script as a representation of
AElf- or even Ead-, so Eald- would not surprise me. As you can
probably guess, this makes it virtually impossible to figure out what
the true A-S name of someone who only appears in Continental sources,
such as the daughter of Eadweard who was sent to marry "a prince near
the Jupiter Mountains", hard, sometimes, to figure out what the
original form might have been (Agive in the surviving record).
taf
TJ Booth
'Godiva of Ely' in the Liber Eliensis record(s) noted in the below posting?
Godgifu's alleged 2nd marriage relies solely on the interpretation of this
record.
DNB 2004 (Vol 22 page 574) completely reverses its interpretation of the
1890 DNB Godgifu entry I had posted (which had suggested the Coventry and
Ely Godgifu's were identical). "She [Leofric's wife] must be distinguished
from three contemporaries of the same name : Godgifu, benefactress of Ely
Abbey in the 1020s; Godgifu, or Gode (d. c.1049), sister of Edward the
Confessor; and Godgifu, or Godgyth (d. bef 1055), wife of Earl Siward and
benefactress of Peterborough Abbey. The name is very common; critics of the
marriage of Henry I with the English princess Edith nicknamed the royal
couple 'Godric and Godgify'."
The reversal allowed DNB 2004 to move Godgifu's dates back by 30 years
("They were probably married before 1010, so that Godgifu was perhaps born
c. 990.") from that stated in 1890.
The Liber Eliensis record is important enough that this group should reach
its own consensus.
Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois
----- Original Message -----
From: "TJ Booth" <terry...@sbcglobal.net>
To: "GenMedieval" <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
> The story that Godgifu was married twice may be another myth.
>
> The story is found in the 1890 DNB entry for Godgifu (yes 1890 - because
> its
> free online - don't know if it is repeated in the current DNB) at
> http://books.google.com/books?id=qSYJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA36. It relies on Thomas
> of Ely's 12th century 'Liber Eliensis' which identifies 'the widow of an
> earl' named Godiva/Godgifu, who made large donations 'in prospect of
> death'
> to Ely and Elmham churches. They were apparently recorded in letters to
> Bishop Aelfric of Elmham and Abbot Leofric of Ely. DNB dates the letters
> to
> 1028-1029 based on a determination of the churchmen's overlapping years.
> DNB
> then observes, "If this is our Godiva, it would follow that she recovered
> from her illness of 1028-29, and that her union with earl Leofric was a
> second marriage."
>
> This snippet view of Blake's translation of 'Liber Eliensis'
> http://books.google.com/books?id=R9gZAAAAIAAJ&dq=%22Liber+Eliensis%22+%22thomas+of+ely%22&q=godgifu&pgis=1#search
> suggests a wider '1022-1029' range of dates and seems to exclude both earl
> Leofric and earl Siward from involvement.
>
> Does anyone have 'Liber Eliensis' to confirm the above? Are there good
> dates
> for the 2 churchmen? Is there anything else linking the 2 Godgifus? Can
> the
> marriage be rejected because the gifts were 'in prospect of death', and
> there is no proof the woman ever recovered?
>
> Terry Booth
> Chicago, Illinois
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "TJ Booth" <terry...@sbcglobal.net>
> To: "GenMedieval" <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:29 AM
> Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
>
>
>> You are right, Stephen did have a son Alan 'the Black'. But he also had
>> brothers named Alan 'the Red' and Alan 'the Black'. The identification of
>> Alan 'the Red' - from Ravilious - is therefore correct. Ravilious cited
>> CP
>> XII, Appendix L, p. 48 that Alan 'the Red' was one of the few certain
>> participants in the Battle of Hastings.
>>
>> See the record for Alan 'the Red' and his 2 brothers at Doyle's 'Official
>> Baronage',
>> http://books.google.com/books?id=DO8IAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA105.#PPA105,M1. The
>> entries on this and the next page show 3 brothers - Alan (or Alain) 'the
>> Red', another brother Alan (Alain) nicknamed 'the Black', and Stephen.
>> The
>> next page shows Stephen with a son Alan (or Alain) also nicknamed 'the
>> Black'.
>>
>> The spellings, dates and titles seem questionable for some Doyle entries,
>> and Doyle doesn't identify Eudo as the brother's father. There is a chart
>> at
>> CP X, p. 781 (not seen) that shows this family with more accuracy.
>>
>> Terry Booth
>> Chicago, Illinois
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "WJhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
>> To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
>> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 10:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
>>
>>
>>> Are you certain of this placement?
>>> I note an Alan "The Black" as *son* of Stephen (d 1135), himself son of
>>> Eudo.
>>>
>>> Will Johnson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 08/16/07 18:26:05 Pacific Standard Time,
>>> terry...@sbcglobal.net writes:
>>> As you note, count Alan 'the Red' was the son of Eudo, count of
>>> Penthievre.
>>> He apparently had a brother also named Alan ('the Black') who was
>>> granted
>>> some of his brother's properties.
>>>
WJhonson
The reversal allowed DNB 2004 to move Godgifu's dates back by 30 years
("They were probably married before 1010, so that Godgifu was perhaps born
c. 990.") from that stated in 1890. >>
-------------------
Patent silliness of course. They appear to be trying desperately to prove that Godiva was the mother of all Leofric's children, and thus the *grand*mother of men who were active as adults commanding military units while she was evidently *yet* living.
Perhaps I shouldn't rush to judgement but what the heck, if DNB can do it....
"We only know of one wife to Leofric" is a false argument, as there are many many Earls for whom we don't know of *any* wife for them and yet they had children. Leofric may have been married many times for all we know.
At any rate, we know of at least a few charters which are apparently not spurious and which name her. They however aren't early enough to satisfactorily show that she was Leofric sole wife. And he apparently does not appear with a wife in any earlier charters to show that he did or didn't have any other one.
The Liber E would be a nice addition to my Godiva page should anyone find a copy online or elsewhere.
Will
taf
> <<In a message dated 08/23/07 09:52:05 Pacific Standard Time, terryjbo...@sbcglobal.net writes:
> The reversal allowed DNB 2004 to move Godgifu's dates back by 30 years
> ("They were probably married before 1010, so that Godgifu was perhaps born
> c. 990.") from that stated in 1890. >>
>
> -------------------
> Patent silliness of course. They appear to be trying desperately to prove that Godiva was the mother of all Leofric's children, and thus the *grand*mother of men who were active as adults commanding military units while she was evidently *yet* living.
>
They were commanding troops, but this should not be compared to
earlier or later times when such a command had to be earned and the
commanders older. Their appointments as Ealdormen were political - the
elder probably to appease a large political bloc that had been loyal
to his father and grandfather, the younger arising out of a sticky
political crisis, where an easily manipulated teen was just what the
local power-broakers wanted, it has been argued. The military command
just went along with the titles. They are thought to have been in the
range of 18 and 16. Certainly it is not unusual for the *grand*mother
of an 18-year-old to be *yet* living.
We discussed the situation of the Ealdormen in soc.hist.med a few
years ago. Due to political more than tactical concerns, Harold had
appointed teenagers to three of the Ealdordoms, and the other three
went to his immediate family members. With two of the three teenagers
being his brothers-in-law (the other reputed to be a kinsman), it was
an unprecedented centralization of political power, but at the expense
of military efficiency - he basically made the national power
structure as well as the military leadership an entirely personal
affair, and in so doing made conquest by decapitation the almost
inevitable consequence of a single military defeat.
taf
WJhonson
We discussed the situation of the Ealdormen in soc.hist.med a few
years ago. Due to political more than tactical concerns, Harold had
appointed teenagers to three of the Ealdordoms, and the other three
went to his immediate family members.>>
Todd what is the proof that they were teenagers?
Thanks
Will
TJ Booth
document S1531 (Will of Thurstan, son of Wine) dated (1043 x 1045) - noted
as probably authentic. Unless it can be shown this is not earl Leofric's
son, it would be the earliest record for him
http://www.anglo-saxons.net/hwaet/?do=seek&query=S+1531. He is also a
witness as 'Aelfgar nobilis' in the 'probably authentic' S1019 (dated to
1049) which his father 'Leofric dux' as well as 'Godwine dux' and 'Harold
dux' also witnessed http://www.anglo-saxons.net/hwaet/?do=seek&query=S+1019.
The 1049 date suggests that assigning him an earldom before then is probably
incorrect, and that Florence is probably right in dating the start of
Aelfgar's 'temporary' earlship to Sep 1051 (after Godwine had fled to
Flanders).
ASC document S1042 (20/24 May 1065) - noted as probably authentic - may be
the earliest mention of son Eadwine as earl - 'Eadwine dux'. This record
would also prove that Morcar had not yet been named to replace earl
Tostig/Tosti. http://www.anglo-saxons.net/hwaet/?do=seek&query=S+1042. This
is consistent with ASC's statement that Morcar/Morkar was named earl 'the
eve of St. Simon's and St. Jude's mass' in 1965
http://books.google.com/books?id=4jEIAAAAQAAJ&pg=coverpage#PPA438,M1, which
Florence dates to 28 Oct 1065
http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz5GjYgC&pg=RA1-PA486&vq=godiva#PRA1-PA167,M1.
If one presumes that Aelfgar's sons Eadwine and Morcar were both of age when
acting as earls in 1065 (one being of course older), and that dau
Aeldgyth/Ealdgyth was a mother abt 1057, Aelfgar was prob a father and m. by
1040 if not earlier. If Aelfgar was the witness to the 1045 will (which
presumably required him to be of age), that suggests he was b. at least by
1025. He was d. bef 20/24 May 1065, when his son Eadwine had succeeded him
as earl.
If one instead accepts the suggestion that Eadwine and Morcar were mere 16
and 18 year-old teenagers when named earls (proof not seen), they would have
been b. as late as 1046 and 1048. This could move Aelfgar's marriage date
closer to 1045 dependant on the birthdate presumed for Ealdgyth. The
brothers would then be 17 and 19 when Florence writes that on the eve of 20
Sep 1066, "before the king's arrival, the two brothers, Edwin and Morcar, at
the head of a large army, fought a battle with the Norwegians on the
northern bank of the river Ouse, near York.". If they were indeed brash
young teenagers who wouldn't take advice from anyone, that could explain why
they lost that battle. 5 days later, Harold defeated the same enemy at
Stanford Bridge. Killing, among others, 'earl Tosti', the man whose earldom
of Northumbria had been granted Morcar les than a year earlier.
Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois
taf
> <<In a message dated 08/23/07 13:10:38 Pacific Standard Time, farme...@interfold.com writes:
> We discussed the situation of the Ealdormen in soc.hist.med a few
> years ago. Due to political more than tactical concerns, Harold had
> appointed teenagers to three of the Ealdordoms, and the other three
> went to his immediate family members.>>
> --------------------
> Todd what is the proof that they were teenagers?
It came from a secondary source, and I now have to report abject
failure in trying to find anything primary - not just nothing primary
referring to the age of these Ealdormen, but practically nothing
primary at all - it was the first I looked at the local collection,
and I was certainly not impressed.
taf
taf
> On Aug 22, 11:50 am, "Clive West" <clivew...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > 2. This is supported by the Domesday Book which shows the estate of Bilvaie (modern Binley, near Coventry) as belonging some time before the Conquest to "Algid uxor Griffin" (Aldgyth wife of Gruffydd). This estate later belonged to Osbert fitz Richard.
>
> I would be interested in opinion on this. Given the amount of
> confiscation and regranting, I am not sure how safe it is to assume
> that this serves as evidence that Nest was daughter of Gruffydd _by_
> Aldgyth.
To answer my own question, I see that Freeman cites Orderic as
explicitly giving Ealdgyth a daughter Nest. However, he is not very
strong on this family. He also gives her a son Bleddyn who was
instead a more distant kinsman of her husband, and he names her mother
as Godgifu.
taf
WJho...@aol.com
dealing with this family.
A source if it's going to make a statement like that based on oblique clues
should make those clues apparent so we can see that the source is using
*reasoning* to arrive at their conclusion, instead of actually citing some primary
source.
It's quite likely that your secondary, uses the same logic that Godiva must
be the mother, and then works backward to calculate what the ages of the
children must be if she lived through the Conquest.
All we have to do is suppose that possibly she wasn't the mother, and all
that has to be redrawn again.
Will
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
TJ Booth
seems a bit strong. Until 'Liber Eliensis' and its primary sources can be
reviewed, we instead seem in the odd position of accepting DNB's 1890
statement that Godgifu was married before, while rejecting DNB's more recent
2004 statements out of hand.
Suggesting that Leofric's case is the same as Earls with no known wives is
comparing apples and oranges. If none of an earl's wife(s) and/or mistresses
are known, then the odds are 100% the mother of any of his children is
unknown. But Leofric did have a wife whose first name is known from many
primary sources, so his is a different case - unless of course it can be
proved that Godgifu married Leofric too late to have born his son.
Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois
----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
> <<In a message dated 08/23/07 09:52:05 Pacific Standard Time,
> terry...@sbcglobal.net writes:
> The reversal allowed DNB 2004 to move Godgifu's dates back by 30 years
> ("They were probably married before 1010, so that Godgifu was perhaps born
> c. 990.") from that stated in 1890. >>
>
> -------------------
> Patent silliness of course. They appear to be trying desperately to prove
> that Godiva was the mother of all Leofric's children, and thus the
> *grand*mother of men who were active as adults commanding military units
> while she was evidently *yet* living.
>
> Perhaps I shouldn't rush to judgement but what the heck, if DNB can do
> it....
>
> "We only know of one wife to Leofric" is a false argument, as there are
> many many Earls for whom we don't know of *any* wife for them and yet they
> had children. Leofric may have been married many times for all we know.
>
> At any rate, we know of at least a few charters which are apparently not
> spurious and which name her. They however aren't early enough to
> satisfactorily show that she was Leofric sole wife. And he apparently
> does not appear with a wife in any earlier charters to show that he did or
> didn't have any other one.
>
> The Liber E would be a nice addition to my Godiva page should anyone find
> a copy online or elsewhere.
>
> Will
>
John P. Ravilious
I agree that Orderic is not the highest on the accuracy scale,
and like any source requires close reading (and comparison to other
sources). However, I would not lay aside the claim of a daughter Nest
as a daughter of Aldgid/Aldgyth too readily. Bleddyn ap Cynfyn, king
of Gwynedd and Powys (d. 1075) doesn't rate as a 'more distant
kinsman' of Gruffydd: Bleddyn was his uterine half-brother [1].
William of Jumi?ges (fl. ca. 1000-1070) was a contemporary
witness to the events of the mid 11th century, and appears to have
fewer accuracy issues as I find it compared to Orderic. As I
previously mentioned, it was William (vii. 31) who stated that Harold
Godwinsson married Aldith, daughter of Earl Al[f]gar, after the death
of her 1st husband Gruffydd:
" Grithfridi quoque conjugem Aldith, praeclari Comitis Algari
filiam, sibi uxorem junxit. " [2]
The subsequent history and claimed descent from the daughter Nest
is based on Giraldus Cambrensis and others, as Clive West kindly drew
together previously in this thread [3].
In fact, all of the evidence (including Orderic) points to there
having been a daughter Nest; there appears to be no evidence to the
contrary.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] Reference from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle:
'A.D. 1063.
.... in the harvest of the same year was King Griffin slain,
on the nones of August, by his own men, through the war
that he waged with Earl Harold. He was king over all the
Welsh nation. And his head was brought to Earl Harold;
who sent it to King Edward, with his ship's head, and
the rigging therewith. King Edward committed the land
to his two brothers, Blethgent [Bleddyn] and Rigwatle
[Rhiwallon]; who swore oaths, and gave hostages to the
king and to the earl, that they would be faithful to him
in all things, ready to aid him everywhere by water and
land, and would pay him such tribute from the land as
was paid long before to other kings. ' [ASC 143 ]
[2] E. A. Freeman, The History of the Norman Conquest of England
(Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1870), II:659.
[3] On 22 Aug 2007, Clive West wrote:
" In a message of 15th August under this topic Will Johnson raised
doubts as to whether Gruffydd ap Llewellyn was the son-in-law of
Alfgar and whether Osbert fitz Richard married Nest, the daughter of
Gruffydd. The main evidence for these relationships is as follows:
1. According to the chronicler Orderic Vitalis (c. 1075-11420):
"The Earls Edwin and Morcar, sons of the great Earl Aelfgar, were
close friends and adherents of Harold (Godwin) and gave him help in
their power; for he had taken to wife their sister Aldgyth. She had
formerly been the wife of Gruffydd, a great Welsh prince and had born
him Bleddyn and a daughter called Nest." (Historia Ecclesiastica Book
III)
2. This is supported by the Domesday Book which shows the estate of
Bilvaie (modern Binley, near Coventry) as belonging some time before
the Conquest to "Algid uxor Griffin" (Aldgyth wife of Gruffydd). This
estate later belonged to Osbert fitz Richard.
3. That Osbert fitz Richard had a wife called Nest is proved by two of
his son's charters (148 & 165) where he refers to "patris mei Osberti
et matris mee Nest" (Worcester Cartulary)
4. J.E. Lloyd in his "History of Wales" discovered that this Nest was
the daughter of Gruffydd by comparing two sources: i) Florence of
Worcester, (d. 1118) reported that Bernard of Neufmarche was the son
in law of Osbert fitz Richard, while ii) the 12th century chronicler
Giraldus Cambrensis reported that Neufmarche married Nest, the
daughter of another Nest, who was the daughter of Gruffydd ap
Llewellyn. (Itinerarium Cambriae. Chapter II).
Clive West "
* John P. Ravilious
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 8/24/2007 2:31:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
terry...@sbcglobal.net writes:
But Leofric did have a wife whose first name is known from many
primary sources, so his is a different case - unless of course it can be
proved that Godgifu married Leofric too late to have born his son.
-------------
Silence isn't a good argument. However the fact that she evidently lived
through the Conquest might be one. Which seems more probable? That Leofric
had a wife who wasn't recorded, or that Godgifu lived to be in her 70s if not
80s ?
taf
> Dear Todd,
>
> I agree that Orderic is not the highest on the accuracy scale,
> and like any source requires close reading (and comparison to other
> sources). However, I would not lay aside the claim of a daughter Nest
> as a daughter of Aldgid/Aldgyth too readily. Bleddyn ap Cynfyn, king
> of Gwynedd and Powys (d. 1075) doesn't rate as a 'more distant
> kinsman' of Gruffydd: Bleddyn was his uterine half-brother [1].
Thanks for the precise relationship (which by the way does, in my
view, rate as more distant than being his child), but if Orderic
confused a half-brother-in-law with a son, I have a reduced faith that
he has correctly distinguished a daughter from a step-daughter.
> William of Jumi?ges (fl. ca. 1000-1070) was a contemporary
> witness to the events of the mid 11th century, and appears to have
> fewer accuracy issues as I find it compared to Orderic. As I
> previously mentioned, it was William (vii. 31) who stated that Harold
> Godwinsson married Aldith, daughter of Earl Al[f]gar, after the death
> of her 1st husband Gruffydd:
>
> " Grithfridi quoque conjugem Aldith, praeclari Comitis Algari
> filiam, sibi uxorem junxit. " [2]
>
> The subsequent history and claimed descent from the daughter Nest
> is based on Giraldus Cambrensis and others, as Clive West kindly drew
> together previously in this thread [3].
>
> In fact, all of the evidence (including Orderic) points to there
> having been a daughter Nest; there appears to be no evidence to the
> contrary.
All the evidence points to a daughter of Griffith named Nest. Only
Orderic (so far) indicates she was daughter of Ealdgyth. If only the
Welsh had the same concept of monogamy as everyone else, then finding
that Griffith married Ealdgyth and that Griffith had Nest would
provide decent evidence that Ealdgyth had Nest, but it doesn't work
that way in Wales. If you assume that the official wife is mother of
the child, you do so at your own peril.
What does Barton have to say (and more importantly, what does he
cite)?
taf
taf
> I think the problem we'll face is the circularity of the secondaries in
> dealing with this family.
>
> A source if it's going to make a statement like that based on oblique clues
> should make those clues apparent so we can see that the source is using
> *reasoning* to arrive at their conclusion, instead of actually citing some primary
> source.
If only. As frustrating as it is to genealogists and scholars, a
historical book which spelled out the logic for each obscure comment
would be virtually unreadable and certainly unmarketable at a level
beyond the smallest circle of scholarly specialists. Publishers _hate_
footnotes particularly detailed ones. (I had to fight to get a couple
of explanatory footnotes into a publication for a historical society.)
With internet publishing this becomes more practical, but the only
book on the subject that I recall to make any attempt to explain the
peripheral issues as you suggest is: it took him 5 volumes, each with
dozens of appendices, and for every issue he clarifies, he raises
several more that could/should be explained. Given publication costs
going up, and library budgets going down, I doubt anyone could get
such a work published today (and if the did it through the subsidy
route, they would end up with an attack full of unsold treasures).
> It's quite likely that your secondary, uses the same logic that Godiva must
> be the mother, and then works backward to calculate what the ages of the
> children must be if she lived through the Conquest.
Maybe, maybe not. It is stated like it is common knowledge.
> All we have to do is suppose that possibly she wasn't the mother, and all
> that has to be redrawn again.
Maybe, maybe not.
taf
taf
> In a message dated 8/24/2007 2:31:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>
>
> But Leofric did have a wife whose first name is known from many
> primary sources, so his is a different case - unless of course it can be
> proved that Godgifu married Leofric too late to have born his son.
>
> -------------
> Silence isn't a good argument. However the fact that she evidently lived
> through the Conquest might be one. Which seems more probable? That Leofric
> had a wife who wasn't recorded, or that Godgifu lived to be in her 70s if not
> 80s ?
I don't see a pampered Anglo-Saxon woman living to her 70s being so
ridiculous as to require an earlier wife. Sure, it didn't happen to
to everyone, but it is hardly such an anomaly as to necessitate such a
revision.
If you give 20 year generations, which is not out of the question
going from an heiress (I don't think anyone knows when Anglo-Saxon
daughters consumated their marriages, but I don't think 16 or 17 is
that extreme, so that gives her the chance for an heir and a spare by
20) to an eldest son and heir to another eldest son and heir, then you
only need to add 40 years to her grandson's age. If Edwin was 25, that
makes her 65. Given shorter generations and a younger Edwin, she could
even be <50. If Griffith did have a daughter by Ealdgyth, then this
would prevent the number going too low, but the chronology doesn't
need to be nearly as extreme as you are casting it.
taf
D. Spencer Hines
The mountain gives birth to a mouse.
This is what I mean by Thumb-Sucking Genealogical Trivia.
Indeed it's a Sterling Exemplar of same.
DSH
"taf" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:1187981365.7...@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
WJhonson
But you neatly sidestep my point, which isn't "Is it possible that Godiva lived into her 60s, 70s, or 80s"
but my point is rather, which is more probable?
A) That she had a longer life than the average or
B) That Leofric had a wife or partner whose name isn't recorded?
It's a two-part question. And the standard interpretation is less than a hundred-years old as can be seen by DNB's insinuation that Godiva *might* have been a widow at the time she married Leofric, and then retracting it later, based on no authority, that this was someone else.
Digging down to the root sources, we can't really determine which case is correct today it seems. Only that the question shouldn't be swept under the table in this fashion, but rather laid out in full view for scrutiny.
Does Keats-Rohan address these holdings in Domesday that Godiva *had* held ?
Will
taf
> But you neatly sidestep my point, which isn't "Is it possible that Godiva lived into her 60s, 70s, or 80s"
>
> but my point is rather, which is more probable?
> A) That she had a longer life than the average or
> B) That Leofric had a wife or partner whose name isn't recorded?
I didn't sidestep it. I just didn't give you the answer in the form
you wanted. You seem to think that it is more likely that she was a
second wife than that she lived a long life. I don't find the question
all that useful because it appears to me to be a false duality - I
think there is nothing in the historical record that would stop her
from having been the only wife _and_ not having lived a life that was
exceptionally long. This third possibility renders a comparison of the
other two moot, there being then no reason to look for alternative
explanations for her presence in the record at a date perceived to be
late.
As we all know, medieval genealogy is full of reconstructions based on
scant evidence. In many cases we have only one or two references to a
wife, during the entire duration of the marriage, and if there is no
evidence to the contrary and no good reason to think otherwise, we
assume that this one documented wife is the mother of the children.
In many of these cases, we could posit an additional wife prior to the
documented one who was really mother of the children, but there is no
reason to do this unless there is some anomaly that necessitates it.
You have set up the chronology so as to suggest such an anomaly, but I
have tried to show that by another reasonable reconstruction, there is
no such anomaly, and hence no justification for introducing additional
entities into the equation. It is Occam at work - we shouldn't make
it more complex than it needs to be. Could there have been an earlier
wife? sure, but there need not have been, so you need some good reason
to introduce one, and I don't think the chronology is sufficiently out
of order to demand this.
>
> It's a two-part question. And the standard interpretation is less than a hundred-years old as can be seen by DNB's insinuation that Godiva *might* have been a widow at the time she married Leofric, and then retracting it later, based on no authority, that this was someone else.
>
Based on no _given_ authority, but it does leave us guessing. On the
other hand, there doesn't seem to be any good authority for giving
Godiva an earlier husband either, or they wouldn't have taken it out.
> Digging down to the root sources, we can't really determine which case is correct today it seems. Only that the question shouldn't be swept under the table in this fashion, but rather laid out in full view for scrutiny.
>
I am not trying to sweep it under the carpet, just pointing out that
with the information currently on the table, I see no need for a more
complex arrangement. (tables, carpets . . . time for an interior
decorator)
> Does Keats-Rohan address these holdings in Domesday that Godiva *had* held ?
>
If you mean in DD and DP, its hard to tell. Her format doesn't really
make such a search by holder at the time of the Confessor all that
easy.
taf
Peter Stewart
deserves to be carved in stone for SGM newcomers.
It sent me back some way into the thread, but there are too many messages
for my limited time to catch up. Although I'm not sure what the questions
are about Godiva, I can provide the text from _Liber Eliensis_ that Will was
asking for. The only mention of a lady of this name is as follows (book II,
chapter 81):
"In diebus Leofrici abbatis, regnante Canuto, quedam femina, Godiva nomine,
cuiusdam comitis derelicta fuit, que post ipsius obitum bona sua ecclesiis
divisit, ut ad meritorum suorum participes forent apud Deum. Ad sponsam
domini Iesu Æðeldreðam orationum excubias actitans, loci amenitate et
fratrum devotione in maximum erga eos ascenditur amorem, unde de suo iure
aliqua rura, sed precipua, beate virgini et Deo illic ministrantibus donavit
et in testamento Anglice confirmavit, quorum hic nomina memorantur: Æstre,
Fanbrege, Terlinges" [edited by E.O. Blake (London, 1962) p. 150].
(In the time of Abbot Leofric, in the reign of Canute, there was a certain
woman named Godiva, widow of an earl, who after his death divided her
possessions amongst churches so that they might partake in her merits before
God. She often attended the prayer vigils for Ætheldreth, and from the
amenity of the place and the devotion of the monks increased in her very
great love for them, out of which she gave some lands that she held in her
own right, special properties, to those serving the blessed Virgin and God
in that house, and confirmed this in her testament, written in English; the
names of these estates are recorded here: (High) Easter, (South) Fambridge,
Terling [all in Essex].)
Blake noted that "If the references to Abbot Leofric and Cnut are correct
the bequest must have been made between c.1022 and c.1029 and this cannot be
the famous Godgifu, the wife of Earl Leofric of Mercia, as he did not die
before 1057, nor the Godgifu, wife of Earl Siward". However, _Liber
Eliensis_ was composed late in the 12th century, so that accuracy of
chronological detail long before is hardly to be expected.
There is no other reference to this lady in the text, and none at all to
Earl Leofric.
Peter Stewart
"taf" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:1188000554....@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
Peter Stewart
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:dAOzi.25836$4A1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>I haven't been following this discussion - however, the post below from
>Todd deserves to be carved in stone for SGM newcomers.
>
> It sent me back some way into the thread, but there are too many messages
> for my limited time to catch up. Although I'm not sure what the questions
> are about Godiva, I can provide the text from _Liber Eliensis_ that Will
> was asking for. The only mention of a lady of this name is as follows
> (book II, chapter 81):
>
> "In diebus Leofrici abbatis, regnante Canuto, quedam femina, Godiva
> nomine, cuiusdam comitis derelicta fuit, que post ipsius obitum bona sua
> ecclesiis divisit, ut ad meritorum suorum participes forent apud Deum. Ad
> sponsam domini Iesu Æðeldreðam orationum excubias actitans, loci amenitate
> et fratrum devotione in maximum erga eos ascenditur amorem, unde de suo
> iure aliqua rura, sed precipua, beate virgini et Deo illic ministrantibus
> donavit et in testamento Anglice confirmavit, quorum hic nomina
> memorantur: Æstre, Fanbrege, Terlinges" [edited by E.O. Blake (London,
> 1962) p. 150].
I missed a few words in my translation, that for literal completeness should
read:
(In the time of Abbot Leofric, in the reign of Canute, there was a certain
woman named Godiva, widow of an earl, who after his death divided her
possessions amongst churches so that they might partake in her merits before
God. She often attended the prayer vigils for Ætheldreth, bride of the lord
Jesus, and from the amenity of the place and the devotion of the monks
increased in her very great love for them, out of which she gave some lands
that she held in her own right, special properties, to those serving the
blessed Virgin and God in that house, and confirmed this in her testament,
written in English; the names of these estates are recorded here: (High)
Easter, (South) Fambridge, Terling [all in Essex].)
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
"TJ Booth" <terry...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.949.11877294...@rootsweb.com...
> The story that Godgifu was married twice may be another myth.
>
> The story is found in the 1890 DNB entry for Godgifu (yes 1890 - because
> its free online - don't know if it is repeated in the current DNB) at
> http://books.google.com/books?id=qSYJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA36. It relies on Thomas
> of Ely's 12th century 'Liber Eliensis' which identifies 'the widow of an
> earl' named Godiva/Godgifu, who made large donations 'in prospect of
> death' to Ely and Elmham churches. They were apparently recorded in
> letters to Bishop Aelfric of Elmham and Abbot Leofric of Ely. DNB dates
> the letters to 1028-1029 based on a determination of the churchmen's
> overlapping years. DNB then observes, "If this is our Godiva, it would
> follow that she recovered from her illness of 1028-29, and that her union
> with earl Leofric was a second marriage."
>
> This snippet view of Blake's translation of 'Liber Eliensis'
> http://books.google.com/books?id=R9gZAAAAIAAJ&dq=%22Liber+Eliensis%22+%22thomas+of+ely%22&q=godgifu&pgis=1#search
> suggests a wider '1022-1029' range of dates and seems to exclude both earl
> Leofric and earl Siward from involvement.
>
> Does anyone have 'Liber Eliensis' to confirm the above? Are there good
> dates for the 2 churchmen? Is there anything else linking the 2 Godgifus?
> Can the marriage be rejected because the gifts were 'in prospect of
> death', and there is no proof the woman ever recovered?
Having some free time to go into this thread further, Terry's post prompted
me to return to Ernest Blake's edition of _Liber Eliensis_ and check for the
details above, that are different from those in the passage given before as
the only mention of an earl's widow named Godiva.
However, the same woman with a devotion to the nun Ætheldreth is clearly the
subject of a second chapter, no. 83 in book 2 (page 151), as follows:
"Tunc restat edicere, qualiter fidelis Domini Godiva Ælfricum episcopum et
Leofricum abbatem de Ely per scripta salutavit et quod de salute sua eis
ostendere voluit. Sic quoque ait: O domini mei, ego infelix mulier, quamvis
circa salutem anime mee minus provide intenderim et tempus exitus mei
instat, cum adhuc licet operari, beatitudini vestre insinuo, quid ad dominam
meam sacratissimam virginem Æðeldreðam in Ely constituo fieri de bonis meis
atque concedo. Hoc est, terram de Berchinges, que mihi iuris est parentum
hereditate, illic perpetualiter impertior, ut apud eos mei iugiter memoria
sit."
(Then it remains to establish how the Lord's faithful Godiva greeted Bishop
Ælfric and Abbot Leofric of Ely in writing, and what she determined to lay
before them with regard to her salvation. She expressed herself thus: O my
lords, I, an unhappy woman, with however little prescience I have exerted
myself to save my soul, now that the time of my death is near, since making
amends is allowed me, I put to your reverences what I am arranging to be
done with my possessions and what I am bequeathing to my lady the most holy
virgin Ætheldreth in Ely. This is, the estate of Barking, which is mine by
right of parental inheritance, is granted in perpetuity, in order that my
memory may be held amongst them always).
Blake noted to this passage, "Perhaps the same as the Godgifu of ch. 81" -
this seems more than likely to me - "The bishop is probably Ælfric II of
Elmham who succeeded sometime after 1022 and died in 1038...and the outer
limits for the date of this bequest are no more closely defined than by the
probable dates of Leofric's tenure of the abbacy 1022 x 1029".
Given the specific indications twice over that this Godiva lived in the time
of Abbot Leofric, and the account that she wrote to him and to a named
bishop who was dead in 1038, it appears that Godiva the countess of Earl
Leofric of Mercia cannot be the woman in question. The late 12th-century
monk was probably taking his information from records, copies or originals,
held in the abbey, including this lady's will that he mentioned as written
in English and perhaps her letter that if quoted directly was a separate
document, or maybe a translation prepared for her in Latin because it was
intended for important churchmen and not for her family.
It's also possible that this Godiva was childless, since "infelix" used by
women can mean "barren" as well as "unhappy", and that might make sense in
the context of her testament, although describing oneself as miserable over
not being better prepared spiritually for the afterlife was conventional.
Peter Stewart
Bob Turcott
Hey I still think the man that has the chocolate factory named his factory and rand name after the lady godiva , hey its godiva chocolates man!!!
_________________________________________________________________
Discover the new Windows Vista
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE
TJ Booth
Many thanks for your assistance on this.
Great scholarship, great translation - couldn't ask for more.
Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TJ Booth
Leofric had an uncited first wife. there is also a simple answer to whether
Godgifu lived to be 70 - she didn't have to, per items cited below.
While we can't prove her b. and m. dates, Domesday Book provides proof she
d. aft 14 Oct 1066 Battle of Hastings. "[Nottingham Domesday], i, 249r
(11-37) Robert of Stafford; Madeley (in Checkley). TRW Robert of Stafford
holds a half hide in Madeley, and Wulfheah holds from him. Godgifu held it
TRE. She even held it after the coming of King William into England, but she
could not withdraw from her land." If the translation can be trusted, this
proves she d. after Harold's death at Hastings. The statement also proves
her ownership status was sharply reduced after the conquest (suggesting her
lands had been confiscated). See
http://books.google.com/books?id=YpI9-3hPiYkC&pg=PA454&dq=godgifu+1066+domesday&sig=6xVYj7YZMsv1rzxKfyggzMQjFtg#PPA240,M1
The Lincolnshire Domesday Book starts with a notable statement of the king's
special laws (and 1086 real estate tax rate) applicable to all properties in
Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire. It also has this very important statement
"Here is noted who had [i.e. TRE] soke and sake and toll and team and the
king's custom of two pennies [i.e. full property rights]; the Archbishop of
York over his manors; the Countess Godgifu over Newark Wapentake; Ulf Fenisc
over his land; the Abbot of Perborough over Collingham; the Abbot of Burton;
Earl Hugh over Markheaton (Derbysh.); the Bishop of Chester; Toki; Swein son
of Svavic; Siward Barn; Wulfric Cild; Alsige of Illing; Leofwine son of
ASlwine; Azur son of Svala; Countess Aelfgifu; Countess Gode; Alsige son of
Karski over Worksop; Henry de Ferrers over Ednaston [Derbysh],Doveridge
[Derbysh]and Brailsford [Derbysh]; Walter d'Aincourt over Branby, Morton
[Derbysh] and Pilsley (in North Wingfield) [Derbysh]; [total of 19 owners
with some interesting associations]. Of these, none could have the earl's
[presumably earl Harold, who was never identified as king in Domesday] third
penny TRE, unless by his consent, and that for as long as he should live,
except for the Archbishop of York, Ulf Fenisc and Countess Godgifu." This
proves Godgifu survived her son Aelfgar, and that
she held superior rights to every other property owner except two - the
Archbishop of York and Ulf Fenisc. [Related question - who was Ulf Fenisc to
be so highly ranked?] To hold the earl's third pennie would seem to date the
record to the short-lived reign of 'earl' Harold. Aelfgar's widow, Countess
Aelfgifu, is also proven to be alive on the date of this record. See
http://books.google.com/books?id=YpI9-3hPiYkC&pg=PA454&dq=godgifu+1066+domesday&sig=6xVYj7YZMsv1rzxKfyggzMQjFtg#PPA217,M1.
Godgifu held a Newark on Trent Nottingham property TRE that was owned by the
Bishop of Lincoln TRW (i.e. Domesday 1086). See
http://books.google.com/books?id=YpI9-3hPiYkC&pg=PA454&dq=godgifu+1066+domesday&sig=6xVYj7YZMsv1rzxKfyggzMQjFtg#PPA218,M1.
We are left to guess how the Bishop acquired the property - does anyone know
of other evidence for the Bishop's date and manner of acquisition?
There appear to be no Domesday or other records that Countess Godgifu was
alive 20 years later in 1086. The Domesday record for Madeley (above) does
prove she d. aft 14 Oct 1066. This is consistent with the DNB 2004,
Vol 22, page 575 statement - clearly not contemporary but based on early
records - that "In the thirteenth century her death was commemorated on 10
Sep and was believed to have occurred in 1067, which seems plausible. "
While I don't have the original source for this, at least the year is
apparently stated on page 32 of Lancaster's 1967 book on Godiva (not seen),
and Lancaster's original source may be a list of obituaries on 'Plate I,
Oxford,
Bodleian Library, Douce 139, folio 1v' (also not seen).
In a different thread 'Dates for Earl Aelgar', 23 Aug, is proof that
Aelfgar's was b. bef 1025. Dependent on the birthdates assigned to his sons
Eadwine and Morcar, that date might reasonably moved to be closer to 1020.
Given these dates for Aelfgar, it would seem reasonable to require that
Godgifu be b. by 1005 or even 1000. This would in turn suggest she was at
least age 61 or 66 at the time of the conquest. As there is no proof - or
even tradition - she was alive much after that date, there would seem no
reason to require that Godgifu have lived to age 70, much less to age 80.
Since Godgifu's husband would seem to have lived to age 60 and beyond, it is
also not unreasonable that Godgifu could have been upwards of 60 - even 66
or 67 - when she d.
No doubt others will have different interpretations and translations of
these records.
Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois
----- Original Message -----
From: "taf" <farm...@interfold.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva