Judith of Friuli
wprokasy
early 900s?
A Judith of Friuli married Adalbert of Thurgovie
A Judith of Friuli married Arnulf the Bad
A Judith of Friuli was the daughter of Everhard of Friuli and Gisela of
France.
What information I have been able to find so far suggests that the same
Judith could not have been the mother of the children of both Adalbert
and Arnulf for chronological reasons. However, I have also not found
the parents of what would otherwise be the younger Judith, though one
suggestion is that she is the daughter of Berengard I, King of Italy,
and, therefore, niece of the older one.
I would appreciate any information that would help me resolve this.
Bill
--
William F. (Bill) Prokasy
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Stewart, Peter
> From: wprokasy [mailto:wpro...@arches.uga.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, 4 July 2001 5:23
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Judith of Friuli
>
>
> My question is this: were there two Judiths of Friuli circa
> mid-800s to early 900s?
>
> A Judith of Friuli married Adalbert of Thurgovie
> A Judith of Friuli married Arnulf the Bad
>
> A Judith of Friuli was the daughter of Everhard of Friuli and
> Gisela of France.
>
> What information I have been able to find so far suggests that the
> same Judith could not have been the mother of the children of
> both Adalbert and Arnulf for chronological reasons. However, I
> have also not found the parents of what would otherwise be the
> younger Judith, though one suggestion is that she is the daughter
> of Berengard I, King of Italy, and, therefore, niece of the older one.
>
> I would appreciate any information that would help me resolve this.
The usually accepted daughters of King Berengar I were Gisela (born ca
880/5, died 13 June 910, married ca 900 Adalbert I, margrave of Ivrea) and
Bertha (died 952), abbess of San Salvatore at Brescia.
The Judith who was a daughter of Margrave Eberhard of Friuli and Gisela of
Francia was born ca 838 & died 863. She married in 852 as his first wife the
East Frankish Count Heinrich, margrave in Frisia (born 830, killed in battle
near Paris 20 August 886).
The other Judith who in ca 910 married Arnulf der Böse, duke of Bavaria
(born ca 885/90, died 14 July 937) was a daughter of Eberhard, count in the
Sülichgau & Gisela, whose exact parentage is not established. Arnulf tried
unsuccessfully to assert this Judith's rights to the Lombard throne.
Adalbert II, count in the Thurgau died before ca 905, I think - I don't have
a good reference at hand to see who he is supposed to have married, but if
your source says Judith of Friuli was his wife then I'm not sure why she
couldn't have later also married Arnulf of Bavaria. Or are you thinking of a
different Adalbert?
Peter Stewart
Todd A. Farmerie
> The usually accepted daughters of King Berengar I were Gisela (born ca
> 880/5, died 13 June 910, married ca 900 Adalbert I, margrave of Ivrea) and
> Bertha (died 952), abbess of San Salvatore at Brescia.
> (born ca 885/90, died 14 July 937) was a daughter of Eberhard, count in the
> Sülichgau & Gisela, whose exact parentage is not established. Arnulf tried
> unsuccessfully to assert this Judith's rights to the Lombard throne.
It should be pointed out that in his recent article on "Cousins
of the German Carolingians" Donald Jackman proposes exactly this
- that Arnulf of Bavaria married an otherwise overlooked daughter
of Berenger I. In so doing, he relies on the names Eberhard,
Louis and Judith appearing in the next generation, and states
that the arguments are too detailed to provide in the current
article.
taf
Stewart, Peter
Does Jackman give a brief summary of reasons why the onomastics are not just
as persuasive if Arnulf's wife was (as others suppose) the daughter of King
Berengar's nephew Eberhard, count in the Sülichgau? This man wasn't
connected to the family by KF Werner as I remember, but has been given more
recently as a son of Berengar I's brother Adalhard, lay abbot of
Sainte-Calixte, Cysoing & his wife Swanaburg. This would have given his
daughters' husbands some interest in the Lombard crown following Berengar
I's murder in 924, at least until the elevation of his known grandson
Berengar II of Ivrea in 950. I think Arnulf made his play for the throne in
934 or thereabouts, in the lifetime of Berengar I's second wife & widow Anna
- was she the mother of the mysterious daughter proposed by Jackman? I
suppose he would also need to explain the absence of a Berengar amongst
Arnulf's numerous sons.
Of course, there may have been an agnatic candidate in Berengar I's family
anyway, if Berengar, count in the Lommaschgau (stammvater of the margraves
of Namur) did indeed belong to this line. Does Jackman opine on this?
Peter Stewart
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Does Jackman give a brief summary of reasons why the onomastics are not just
> as persuasive if Arnulf's wife was (as others suppose) the daughter of King
> Berengar's nephew Eberhard, count in the Sülichgau?
Not at all. All of his arguments would equally apply to such a
connection.
> I think Arnulf made his play for the throne in
> 934 or thereabouts, in the lifetime of Berengar I's second wife & widow Anna
> - was she the mother of the mysterious daughter proposed by Jackman?
No. He shows her as daughter of Bertilla.
> I
> suppose he would also need to explain the absence of a Berengar amongst
> Arnulf's numerous sons.
The convenience of onomastic reconstructions is that you can pick
and choose the names on which you wish to place emphasis - after
all, there may have been a Berenger who died young without
record. (On the other hand, even were he a great uncle, one
might expect an someone of Berenger's status to be recognized in
the naming patern.
> Of course, there may have been an agnatic candidate in Berengar I's family
> anyway, if Berengar, count in the Lommaschgau (stammvater of the margraves
> of Namur) did indeed belong to this line. Does Jackman opine on this?
His intent in the article is to identify how it is that Konrad
the Elder came to be called nepos of King Arnulf. In so doing,
he explores the maternal ancestry of Arnulf, following several
diversions but never reaching his goal. In the process of
elaborating on King Arnulf's mother Liutswint, who he places as
great-aunt of Arnulf of Bavaria, he gets into speculation
regarding a Carolingian strain in the latter's family, and in the
context of this presents the link to Berenger, but concludes
there was an earlier link as well. It has every appearance of
being a throw-away comment peripheral to the interest of the
paper.
taf