Genghis Khan----again!
Leo van de Pas
How many people know the book "HRH" by Sir Iain Moncreiffe of That Ilk?
On page 100 he mentions Basarab, Voivoide of Valachia (probably son of
Toktemir, great-grandson of Juchi, son of Genghis Khan. I have been
looking amongst Juchi's descendants but cannot find a name like
Toktemir. I know there are a variety of spellings of these Mongol names
and there was one quite close but he was the wrong generation and
married to a Byzantine Princess who was not mentioned by Sir Iain
Moncreiffe.
"HRH" I regard as a beautifully illustrated book but infuriating
as it gives so little of so much. I wished he had dealt with the
same material but all a bit more detailed.
Leo van de Pas
Reedpcgen
>
>"HRH" I regard as a beautifully illustrated book but infuriating as it gives
so little of so much. I wished he had dealt with the same material but all a
bit more detailed.
>Leo van de Pas
>
The great thing about Sir Ian Moncreiffe was that he had a great love of
genealogy, and all those around him loved him.
He did a great service, because even though his book "HRH" is somewhat
fanciful, he brought a lot of money and attention to British genealogy. His
book does not cite sources, like a critical work, but does indeed have good
pictures.
A number of years ago, I actually studied Mongolian with a professor via
telephone. There are numerous varied texts and spellings. So I am certain
that Sir Ian had a source for what he published, but like many of the lines in
the book, it was probably more to show what might be, and intrigue others. Any
modern spelling of names from any original text is VERY problematic, there not
really being any standardized spelling of the script in Romanized text.
Cheers.
pcr
Leo van de Pas
question: How or where does Toktemir fit in amongst Genghis Khan's
descendants. At the moment I am reading a book with Sir Iain's
writings "Lord of the Dance", very informative and entertaining
but that doesn't answer my question.
Leo van de Pas
Kennwalrus
Steven Runciman published a review of Moncreiffe's book -- I believe it's the
same book, but he calls it just "Royal Highness" --
in the early '80s. (I have the review, but never jotted down the paper or the
exact date. _New York Times Book Review_? _[London] Times Literary
Supplement_?) For what it's worth, and without any claim that this will
satisfactorily answer your question, I quote:
"Finally, there is grave doubt about the descent from Genghis Khan, through
Bassarab, first Prince of Wallachia, and ultimately through Queen Mary. It
comes, Sir Iain claims, through one of two Tartar princes called Toktemir,
great-grandsons of Jochi, Genghis's eldest son, princes whose actual existence
has not been proved. Bassarab is described as the son of 'Thocomerius'; but
there was a not-uncommon Balkan name, Tikomir or Tokomir, of which that was the
Latinized form."
I will add only that it would help to know the era in which this name, Tokomir,
became "not uncommon" in the Balkans, and what its own linguistic origin might
be -- in other words, if "Tokomir" could itself derive from a name like
"Toktemir" (which I certainly don't assert), Runciman's stricture would lose
its force.