Llywelyn AT - Part 8 of 9
Stewart Baldwin
Some of this may be unintelligible if you do not have all parts.
Stewart Baldwin
--------
Generation 21
1048576-1048831. Unknown.
1048832. Unknown. [Note: As remarked above under #524416, the
traditional pedigree of the kings of Gwynedd faces chronological
problems at this point.]
1048833-1146879. Unknown or duplicated.
1146880. Cormac mac Ailella (of Uí Dúnlainge) [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18,
CGH.14); R.124b=LL.315c=Lec.91Ra=BB.132a (Rw.338, CGH.74); LL.337f
(CGH.423); WUD] [Note: He appears as king of Laigin (Leinster) in the
official king lists, but his actual status as king is doubtful. See
#286720.]
1146881-1146885. Unknown.
1146886. Fergnae mac Fergusa (of Uí Máil) [WUD]
1146887-1146895. Unknown.
1146896. Nad Fraích mac Echach (of Uí Dúnlainge)
[R.124b=LL.316a=Lec.91Va=BB.132b (Rw.343, CGH.74), WUD]
1146897-1146911. Unknown.
1146912. Eochaid mac Muiredaig (of the Cenél Loairn branch of Dál
Riata) [SFA; GA; R.162e=LL.336b (Rw.1697, CGH.329)]
1146913-1146943. Unknown.
1146944. Senach Díbech (of Uí Máil) [R.125a=Lec.95Rc (Rw.348, 350,
355, CGH.76)] [Note: According to the official Uí Máil pedigree
(Rw.355, as cited above), Senach was son of Cáirthenn Muach, son of
Etarscél, son of Óengus Ailche, son of Fergus Forcraid, son of Tuathal
Tigech, son of Maine Mál (eponym of Uí Máil), who was in turn the
supposed brother of the mythical Cathair Már (see note to #4587520).
An alternate version (R.121a=Rw.176) makes Tuathal Tigech the son of
Mac Locc son of Cathair Már. Senach is mentioned in AU (633) as the
grandfather of king Crimthann mac Áeda of Leinster, and the
genealogies in R give the names of younger sons for both Senach and
his son Áed, both good indications that Senach was historical. On the
other hand, Senach's predecessors in the genealogy are nothing but a
string of names back to the point where the genealogy becomes clearly
mythical. Thus, even though we cannot rule out the possibility that a
couple of generations before Senach are correct, Senach is the point
at which the genealogy becomes clearly hisorical.]
1146945-1146975. Unknown.
1146976. Eochu (or Eochaid) Guinech, king of Uí Bairrche, said [AI,
CS] to have killed Crimthann mac Énnai Chennselaig, king of Laigin
(see #4587968) [CGH.117a=LL337f (Rw.6, CGH.6);
R.121a=LL.313b=Lec.87b=BB.126aa (Rw.180, CGH.46)] [Note: The names
Eochu and Eochaid have been frequently confused, even in the early
sources, and it is not clear which one is correct. The official
genealogy then proceeds to make Eochu a son of Óengus, son of Mac
Ercca, son of Breccán, son of Fiacc, son of Dáire Barrach (eponym of
the Uí Bairrche), son of Cathair Már, of whom the last two can be
regarded as certainly mythological. (See, for example, EIHM pp.
36-8). An Eochu Guinech also appears as a son of Dáire Barrach in the
Uí Bairrche genealogies [R.121a (Rw.181, CGH.46)], suggesting
confusion, and it is difficult to accept the genealogy prior to Eochu.
The Leinster king list [LL.39b] states that Eochu was the maternal
grandson of Crimthann (the king of Leinster whom he killed). However,
since CS, under the year 487, names Eochaid Guinech as one of the
victors in a battle in which Óengus mac Nad Froích (king of Munster)
and his wife Eithne (daughter of Crimthann mac Énnai) fell, it is
possible that confusion between Óengus of Uí Bairrche (father of Eochu
in the official genealogy) and Óengus of Munster has led to confusion
here. While possible, more evidence is desirable before the claimed
relationship between Eochu and Crimthann can be accepted.]
1146977-1146991. Unknown.
1146992. Cormac mac Nath Í (of Uí Chennselaig). [R.117e=Lec.93Ra
(Rw.21, CGH.15); LL.317a=Lec.93Va=BB.136a (CGH.347); LL.337a=Lec.92Vb
(CGH.429); LL.337b (CGH.431)]
1146993-1146999. Unknown.
1147000. Cobthach, of the Déisi [WUD; LL.328c (CGH.400)] [Note: See
the comments under #573500.]
1147001-1610239. Unknown or duplicated.
1610240. Arthur ap Pedr [HG.2: "Arthur map Petr"; ED] [Note: Arthur
ap Pedr, of the dynasty of the kings of Dyfed, probably lived in the
seventh century, and should not be confused with the King Arthur of
legend (whose historical existence is, at best, debatable).]
1610241-2097151. Unknown.
Generation 22
2097152-2293759. Unknown or duplicated.
2293760. Ailill mac Dúnlainge (of Uí Dúnlainge), king of Laigin
(Leinster) [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18, CGH.14);
R.124b=LL.315c=Lec.91Ra=BB.132a (Rw.335, 338, CGH.74); LL.337f
(CGH.423)]
2293761-2293771. Unknown.
2293772. Fergus (of Uí Máil) [WUD]
2293773-2293791. Unknown.
2293792. Eochaid mac Dúnlainge (of Uí Dúnlainge)
[R.124b=LL.315c=Lec.91Ra=BB.132a (Rw.335, 338, CGH.74);
R.124b=LL.316a=Lec.91Va=BB.132b (Rw.343, CGH.74)]
2293793-2293823. Unknown.
2293824. Muiredaig mac Loairn (of the Cenél Loairn branch of Dál
Riata) [SFA; GA; R.162e=LL.336b (Rw.1697, CGH.329)]
2293825-2293983. Unknown.
2293984. Nath Í mac Crimthaind (of Uí Chennselaig) [R.117e=Lec.93Ra
(Rw.21, CGH.15); LL.317a=Lec.93Va=BB.136a (CGH.347); LL.337a=Lec.92Vb
(CGH.429); LL.337b (CGH.431)]
2293985-3220479. Unknown or duplicated.
3220480. Pedr (Peter) ap Cyngar [HG.2: "Petr map Cincar"; ED]
3220481-4194303. Unknown.
Generation 23
4194304-4587519. Unknown or duplicated.
4587520. Dúnlaing (also #4587584), ancestor of the sept of Uí
Dúnlainge, which monopolized the kingship of Laigin (Leinster) from
the seventh through the early eleventh centuries. [Note: As the
ancestor from whom the Uí Dúnlainge got their name, his existence can
be regarded as reasonably certain, and he probably lived in the
mid-fifth century. The official genealogies call him the son of Énnae
Niad, son of Bressal Bélach, son of Fiachu Ba hAiccid, son of Cathair
Már, at which point we are clearly in the mythical part of the
genealogy. Although the existence of Énnae and Bressal as father and
grandfather of Dúnlainge cannot be ruled out, neither can it be
accepted as probable. The official genealogy, which makes Dúnlaing a
first cousin of Énnae Cennselach (#9175936 below), ancestor of the Uí
Chennselaig (the other main powerful sect in Leinster during the
historical period), thus causing the two main Leinster septs to branch
off from each other just prior to the historical period, looks
suspicious, and is just as likely to be the invention of the later
pseudohistorians as genuine tradition.] [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18,
CGH.14); R.124b=LL.315c=Lec.91Ra=BB.132a (Rw.335, CGH.74); LL.337f
(CGH.423)]
4587521. Unknown [Note: She was said by WUD to be Cuach ingen
Chóelbaid, but this appears to have been added to WUD at a later date
from the original composition.]
4587522-4587583. Unknown.
4587584. Dúnlaing, ancestor of the sept of Uí Dúnlainge (see
#4587520).
4587585-4587647. Unknown.
4587648. Loarn, ancestor of the Cenél Loairn branch of Dál Riata.
[SFA; GA; R.162e=LL.336b (Rw.1697, CGH.329)] [Note: Although the
later genealogies make Loarn a son of Erc, and brother of Fergus,
ancestor of the later kings of Scotland, there is no good reason to
believe that the supposed sibling relationship is historical, as
discussed in detail by Bannerman in SHD. Loarn is given in some king
lists as king of Dál Riata before Fergus (see, for example, "The Poem
A Eolcha Alban Uile", edited by Kenneth Jackson in Celtica 3 (!956),
149-67), but it is unclear whether or not this is to be regarded as
historical fact, or as a late invention of the Cenél Loairn.]
4587649-4587967. Unknown.
4587968. Crimthann mac Énnai Chennselaig (of Uí Chennselaig), king of
Laigin (Leinster), said to have d. 483 [AU], but this date is well
before contemporary annalistic recording in Ireland, and is to be
taken with a grain of salt. [R.117e=Lec.93Ra (Rw.21, CGH.15);
LL.317a=Lec.93Va=BB.136a (CGH.347); LL.337a=Lec.92Vb (CGH.429);
LL.337b (CGH.431)]
4587969-6440959. Unknown or duplicated.
6440960. Cyngar ap Gwerthefyr [HG.2: "Cincar map Guortepir"; ED]
6440961-8388607. Unknown.
Generation 24
8388608-9175935. Unknown or duplicated.
9175936. Énnae Cennselach, ancestor of the sept of Uí Chennselaig, one
of the principle dynasties of Leinster in the historical period. As
the ancestor from whom the Uí Chennselaig got their name, his
existence can be regarded as reasonably certain, and he probably lived
in the mid-fifth century. The official genealogies call him the son
of Labraid Laidech, son of Bressal Bélach, which would make him a
first cousin of Dúnlainge (#4587520 above). For the same reasons
already discussed above under #4587520, these prior generations have
not been accepted in this table. [See LL.316c6=Lec.92Rb=BB.134a
(CGH.344), plus the sources cited under #4587968 above.]
9175937-12881919. Unknown or duplicated.
12881920. Uortiporius (Voteporix, Votecorigas, Modern Welsh Gwerthefyr
ap Aergul), king of Demetia (Dyfed), was apparently old at the time
Gildas was writing (perhaps between 500 and 550) [Gildas, De Excidio
Britanniae, 31; CIIC.358=ECMW.138, a memorial stone with Irish ogam
inscription "VOTECORIGAS" and Latin inscription "MEMORIA VOTEPORIGIS
PROTICTORIS; HG.2: "Guortepir map Aircol"; ED] [Note: As the
recipient of a severe denunciation by his contemporary Gildas, and the
subject of a memorial stone, he is the best documented individual in
the earlier generations of this ancestor table. His uncertain
chronological position depends on the still debated chronology of his
contemporary Gildas. (See the notes under #524416 above.)]
12881921-16777215. Unknown.
Generation 25
16777216-25763839. Unknown.
25763840. Agricola (Aergul Lawhir), king of Demetia (Dyfed) (a good
king, according to Gildas) [HG.2: "Aircol map Triphun"; ED] [Note:
His reign as king of Dyfed is confirmed by the contemporary testimony
of Gildas, who, although he does not provide his name, calls his son
Uortiporius the bad son of a good king. His name comes from the later
sources, of which HG is the earliest. His chronology is very
uncertain, due to the uncertain timeframe of Gildas, but the late
fifth century would be a reasonable estimate. Agricola was of Irish
descent, a member of the tribe known as the Déisi, a segment of which
moved from Ireland to Wales at an uncertain date, and eventually
became rulers of Dyfed. His claimed father Tryffin (Triphun), if
accurately remembered, is nothing more than a name, and there are
significant disagreements in the genealogy prior to Tryffin. If it
can be accepted that they hide a grain of truth, it is at least
arguable that Agricola's grandfather was a man who was nicknamed
"Briscus" (Irish "Brosc", Welsh "Vreisc"). See DGD and DD for
detailed discussions. It should be noted that the larger generation
number for Agricola and his immediate descendants is due to the fact
that the dynasty of Dyfed appears to have had a somewhat smaller
average number of years per generation that the other lines followed
(but not enough smaller to cause suspicion), and that Agricola was
probably a rough contemporary of the Irish men who appear in
generations 22 or 23.]
25763841-33554431. Unknown.
End of known ancestry.
Don McArthur
>
> Note: This is Part 8 of 9 parts.
> Some of this may be unintelligible if you do not have all parts.
I have all parts and am still confused by an apparent slip in the AT Nos
??
>
snip.
>From part 7
<< 573456. Báetán mac Echdach (of the Cenél Loairn branch of Dál Riata)
[WUD; GA; R.162e=LL.336b (Rw.1697, CGH.329)]
573457-573471. Unknown.>>
>
> 1146896. Nad Fraích mac Echach (of Uí Dúnlainge)
> [R.124b=LL.316a=Lec.91Va=BB.132b (Rw.343, CGH.74), WUD]
>
I presume him to be father of No 573,456 [x 2 = 1,146,912] ?
>From there on I am completely lost.
--
Regards,
Don McArthur.
Listmoderator - MACAR...@rootsweb.com
Visit The MacArthur Family Tree Project -
http://www.web.netactive.co.za/~donmac
Luke Stevens
> I have all parts and am still confused by an apparent slip in the AT
> Nos ??
>
>
> 1146896. Nad Fraích mac Echach (of Uí Dúnlainge)
>
> From there on I am completely lost.
The tables and numbering are correct, but you are confused:
573456. Báetán mac Echdach (of the Cenél Loairn branch of Dál Riata)
was son of
1146912. Eochaid mac Muiredaig (of the Cenél Loairn branch of Dál Riata)
573448. Maine mac Nad Fraích (of Uí Dúnlainge)
was son of
1146896. Nad Fraích mac Echach (of Uí Dúnlainge)
I can only assume that you were led astray by seeing the same
patronymic ("mac Echdach") at a nearby number, and thinking as if it
were a surname, when in actuality it should be a clue to look for
someone named "Eochaid" as the father. Note also the families
("Cenél Loairn" & "Uí Dúnlainge"), which help to keep things straight.
Luke Stevens
Stewart Baldwin
>Stewart Baldwin wrote:
>>
>> Note: This is Part 8 of 9 parts.
>> Some of this may be unintelligible if you do not have all parts.
>I have all parts and am still confused by an apparent slip in the AT Nos
>??
>>
>snip.
>>From part 7
><< 573456. Báetán mac Echdach (of the Cenél Loairn branch of Dál Riata)
>[WUD; GA; R.162e=LL.336b (Rw.1697, CGH.329)]
>
>573457-573471. Unknown.>>
>>
>> 1146896. Nad Fraích mac Echach (of Uí Dúnlainge)
>> [R.124b=LL.316a=Lec.91Va=BB.132b (Rw.343, CGH.74), WUD]
>>
>I presume him to be father of No 573,456 [x 2 = 1,146,912] ?
>>From there on I am completely lost.
As Luke Stevens has already explained in his response to your posting,
the ancestor numbers were correct as given, and the misunderstanding
appears to come from confusion with regard to the patronymics used
during that period. Surnames did not come into use in Ireland until
the tenth and eleventh centuries. During the period relevant to my
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth posting, Irish names were generally given in
patronymic form, i.e., X mac Y, or X son of Y (with "ingen" [daughter]
replacing "mac" for daughters). To add to the confusion, Irish is a
declined language, which in this case means that in a name of the form
X mac Y (or X ingen Y), the first name (X) is given in the nominative
case, and the patronymic (Y) is given in the genetive case. While the
nominative and genetive forms are sometimes the same (for example, the
name Finn), they are different in the vast majority of situations.
While the connection is usually fairly straightforward (for example,
Conall, gen. Conaill, or Áed, gen. Áeda), some genetives are less
obvious. In this case, the name Eochaid has Echdach (or sometimes
Eochada) as a genetive, while the similar name Eochu has Echach as its
genetive. Thus, if you see someone called "X mac Echdach" during this
period, you should look for a man named Eochaid as the father. The
modern convention is to use a capitalized form (Mac) if a surname is
intended, and lowercase (mac) if a patronymic is intended, although
the distinction is sometimes fuzzy during the period when surnames
were just coming into use, and you cannot expect manuscript sources to
cooperate by following this convention.
By the way, there was a typo in the part you asked about: number
1146896, Nad Fraích mac Echach, should be corrected to Nad Fraích mac
Echdach, since the father of Nad Fraích was named Eochaid rather than
Eochu. The confusion between the two names (and their genetive forms)
has existed for a long time, and can be found in medieval manuscripts
as well as modern sources [thus offering me a convenient excuse for my
own typographical error :-)].
Of course, this patronymic system is not limited to Ireland alone, and
can be found in other places. Wales, for example, was still using
patronymics long after surnames had been adopted in other areas of the
British Isles.
Stewart Baldwin
Suzanne Doig
Baldwin) wrote:
>1146976. Eochu (or Eochaid) Guinech, king of Uí Bairrche
<snip>
>However, since CS, under the year 487, names Eochaid Guinech as one of the >victors in a battle in which Óengus mac Nad Froích (king of Munster) and his >wife Eithne (daughter of Crimthann mac Énnai) fell, it is possible that >confusion between Óengus of Uí Bairrche (father of Eochu in the official >genealogy) and Óengus of Munster has led to confusion here. While possible, >more evidence is desirable before the claimed relationship between Eochu and >Crimthann can be accepted.]
Stewart,
Firstly, many many thanks for all the time and effort you have put
into this and your willingness to share it with all of us.
One quick question: is the Óengus mac Nad Froích, King of Munster,
mentioned in these notes a son of Nad Fraích mac Echach of Uí
Dúnlainge, #1146896 in your chart?
Suzanne
* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * -
Suzanne Doig - remove obvious from reply-to address
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