Averia Mortimer, wife of William Wroth of Enfield, Middlesex

[pd...@peterdale.com]

The National Archives website has the following entries of interest
for a John Mordemore in Enfield and Edmonton, Middlesex. I propose
that this individual may be the father of Averia Mortimer, wife of
William Wroth of Enfield, Middlesex, (b. 1389 and d. 1450). John
Mordemore lived in Enfield and Edmonton, Middlesex contemporaneously
with William Wroth. In fact William was a witness to one of the land
record transactions involving John Mordemore. I welcome any/all
thoughts with respect to same. In particular, I am interested in
knowing how I may go about obtaining a copy of the will of John
Mordemore, the elder, apparently set forth in the following record -
(C 1/26/537) dated 29 Sept. 21 Henry VI.:

“ACC/903
Covering dates 1364 - 1898
Held by London Metropolitan Archives

Extent 186 FILES
Most of the deeds are in excellent condition, apart from a few noted
as having been affected by damp. Many of the early ones have
interesting seals very little damaged. The title deeds and trust deeds
have at some time, probably in the late eighteenth or early nineteenth
century, been numbered in brownish ink. These "original" numbers have
been noted in brackets on the list.
Deed of Gift from John Mordemor and John Cook of Enfield to John
Westbury of Enfield of ½ acre of land with appurtenances in Folowell
field. ACC/903/129 23 August 1411
These documents are held at London Metropolitan Archives

Parchment. Seals: 2 pendant, damaged.
Language: Latin

Contents:
Property between the land of Hawkyn Rolf on the north and land
formerly Richard Burton's on the south, one head abutting on the land
of Walter at Hylle on the west and the other head abutting on
westfield on the east, which ½ acre John Mordemor and John Cook had
received from Robert Rolf, tanner.
Witnesses: Thomas Elsyng, Richard Mordemor, John Mayhew, William
Cordell, John Smyth.” (source:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=074-acc903&cid=8-3#8-3)

“Deed of Gift from William Westbury of Enfield to Richard Payne of
Enfield of a cottage with garden adjacent and appurtenances ACC/
903/133 18 November 1433
These documents are held at London Metropolitan Archives

Parchment, decorated initial S. Seal: pendant, fragment.
Language: Latin

Contents:
Formerly belonging to Nicholas Smyth, fowler, bounded by William
Bodesyle's land on the west and north, the King's highway on the east
and the lane leading to Perkyns field on the south; also a piece of
land 66 feet in length between John Westbury's land east and west and
18 feet wide between John Westbury's land on the north and the lane
leading to Perkyn's field on the south.
Witnesses: John Bourne, John Preston, William Mayhewe senior, John
Shapp, John Mordemore.” (source:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=074-acc903&cid=8-7#8-7)

“Deed of Gift, transferring trust, from William Mayhew senior and John
Carter of Enfield of Radyngton Brigg (bridge) and two pieces of land
ACC/903/116 4 December 1437
These documents are held at London Metropolitan Archives

Parchment. Seals: 2 pendant:
Language: Latin

Contents:
Trust transferred to John Mordemore, John Bristow, tailor, John
Swetyng, John White Webbe, Thomas Hundesdon, John Preston, John
Bowscell, John Hundesdon, Walter Forde, John Forde senior, John Forde
junior, John White, John Ayleward, John Bone, John Sharp, William
Dyne, William Wete, John Hodge, John Westbury, Walter Clatton, William
Mayhewe junior, William Godard, Robert Mayhewe, Hugh Doe, Thomas Doe,
John Bole, Richard White, William Turnow and John Mayhew (son of
William Mayhew, the donor) of:- A bridge called Radyngton Brigg over
the water running from the North Well to Leeshelpe in Enfield, and
also two pieces of land at each end of the bridge, one on the west
side 3¾ perches long and 1 perch wide, and the other piece extending 6
perches 4 feet from the bridge on the east by the meadow called
Mellemarshe (Mill marsh), all of which the donors, with others named,
received from Baldewin Radyngton, knt., formerly of Enfield, to be
held for customary services.
Witness: William Wrothe, Walter Hille, Thomas Morsted, Thomas Frowyk
esq., John Danyell.

Note: Note: Webbe was a term for a weaver, but it is not clear in this
case whether the term is used to describe a trade, or whether by this
date it had already become a personal name, which may have given the
name to White Webb's Park.” (source:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=074-acc903&cid=5-1#5-1)

“Item reference C 1/26/537 ...

Record Summary
Scope and content John Basyn alias Hobbys and Julian his wife, late
the wife of John, son of John Mordemore v. John Hunsdon, feoffee of
the said John Mordemore the elder.: Messuages, lands, &c. in Enfield
(Enefeld) and Edmonton (Edelmeton): the answer contains copy of the
will of the said John the elder, dated 29 Sept. 21 Hen. VI. [1442-43]:
Middlesex.
Covering dates 1456-1460
Held by The National Archives, Kew

Legal status Public Record(s)” (source:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-2408941)


The website, ‘http://www.girders.net/’ by Ian Rogers states the
following with respect to a John Mordemore:

“John MORDEMORE (fl.1424-40)

= Cecily. (www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=78825)

1424-5 Settlement of the action taken against them by John
Langeford(q.v.) and others over a messuage in Edmonton. (ibid.)

1439-40 Settlement of their action against John Leche(q.v.) and his
wife, Joan, deforciants of a messuage in Enfield. (ibid.)

9 July 2009” (source:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&as_q=%22girders%22&as_epq=john+mordemore&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&tbs=&as_filetype=&as_rights=)

The website, ‘http://www.girders.net/’ by Ian Rogers states the
following with respect to a Cecily Mordemore:

“Cecily MORDEMORE (fl.1424-5)

= John(q.v.). (www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=78825)

1424-5 Settlement of the action taken against them by John
Langeford(q.v.) and others over a messuage in Edmonton. (ibid.)

24 September 2008” (source:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&as_q=%22girders%22&as_epq=john+mordemore&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&tbs=&as_filetype=&as_rights=#hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=%22girders%22+%22cecily+mordemore%22&oq=%22girders%22+%22cecily+mordemore%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=serp.3...387372.388324.0.388523.7.7.0.0.0.1.183.831.2j5.7.0...0.0.wVZIJaVop24&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=79b8f7b2e43516a0&biw=1366&bih=542)

“Cecilia MORDEMORE (fl.1438-9)

= John(q.v.). (www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=78825)

1438-9 Settlement of their action taken against John Appulby(q.v.) and
his wife, Margaret(q.v.), deforciants of premises in Edmonton.
(ibid.)

1439-40 Settlement of their action against John Leche(q.v.) and his
wife, Joan, deforciants of a messuage in Enfield. (ibid.)

9 July 2009” (source:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&as_q=%22girders%22&as_epq=john+mordemore&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&tbs=&as_filetype=&as_rights=#hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=%22girders%22+%22mordemore%22&oq=%22girders%22+%22mordemore%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=serp.3...194834.194834.0.195139.1.1.0.0.0.0.161.161.0j1.1.0...0.0.q0Lz4BxS3Oc&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=488a6ca170b38307&biw=1366&bih=542)

The website, ‘http://www.girders.net/’ by Ian Rogers states the
following with respect to a Richard de Mordemore:

“Richard de MORDEMORE (fl.1407-8)
of Enfield.

1407-8 Settlement of his action against Robert Crokesle(q.v.) and his
wife, Sibyl, deforciants of premises in Enfield. (www.british-
history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=78823)

25 July 2008” (source:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&as_q=%22girders%22&as_epq=john+mordemore&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&tbs=&as_filetype=&as_rights=#hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=%22girders%22+%22richard+de+mordemore%22&oq=%22girders%22+%22richard+de+mordemore%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=serp.3...235446.236669.2.236877.11.10.0.0.0.6.177.1322.2j8.10.0...0.0.N4bVaOuL4Vk&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=488a6ca170b38307&biw=1366&bih=542)

Cheers,

Pete Dale

(pd...@peterdale.com)

[Dave D.]

This is a very nice clue, seems well worth further investigation to
me. The only information I know of pertaining to the shadowy John
Mortimer is this, which I posted in 2009:

The following is from Collinson, Hist. of Somerset (III p 67)
This William (Wroth) died in Somerfetfhire 28 Henry VI. and was buried
on the north fide of the chancel of die parifh church.of
Bridgwater,where was a stone, with an inscription in brass, setting
forth the time of his death, and that he married a daughter of John
Mortimer, efq; whofe arrhs were fixf leurS-de-lis. This rnonument was
in being in 1631, but is now entirely defaced.

Not much to go on! Only salient points are title Esquire and six
fleurs de lis. Next question of course, is what else, if anything is
known about this John Mordemer of Enfield? Indeed the Will might be
the smoking gun, and we can learn why John named his little girl after
cattle, or what her name really was....

Cheers, Dave Drabold

> Cordell, John Smyth.” (source:http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=074-acc903&ci...)

>
> “Deed of Gift from William Westbury of Enfield to Richard Payne of
> Enfield of a cottage with garden adjacent and appurtenances ACC/
> 903/133 18 November 1433
> These documents are held at London Metropolitan Archives
>
> Parchment, decorated initial S. Seal: pendant, fragment.
> Language: Latin
>
> Contents:
> Formerly belonging to Nicholas Smyth, fowler, bounded by William
> Bodesyle's land on the west and north, the King's highway on the east
> and the lane leading to Perkyns field on the south; also a piece of
> land 66 feet in length between John Westbury's land east and west and
> 18 feet wide between John Westbury's land on the north and the lane
> leading to Perkyn's field on the south.
> Witnesses: John Bourne, John Preston, William Mayhewe senior, John

> Shapp, John Mordemore.” (source:http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=074-acc903&ci...)

> name to White Webb's Park.” (source:http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=074-acc903&ci...)

>
> “Item reference C 1/26/537 ...
>
> Record Summary
> Scope and content       John Basyn alias Hobbys and Julian his wife, late
> the wife of John, son of John Mordemore v. John Hunsdon, feoffee of
> the said John Mordemore the elder.: Messuages, lands, &c. in Enfield
> (Enefeld) and Edmonton (Edelmeton): the answer contains copy of the
> will of the said John the elder, dated 29 Sept. 21 Hen. VI. [1442-43]:
> Middlesex.
> Covering dates  1456-1460
> Held by The National Archives, Kew
>

> Legal status    Public Record(s)” (source:http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails....)

>
> The website, ‘http://www.girders.net/’by Ian Rogers states the
> following with respect to a John Mordemore:
>
> “John MORDEMORE   (fl.1424-40)
>
> = Cecily.  (www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=78825)
>
> 1424-5  Settlement of the action taken against them by John
> Langeford(q.v.) and others over a messuage in Edmonton.  (ibid.)
>
> 1439-40 Settlement of their action against John Leche(q.v.) and his
> wife, Joan, deforciants of a messuage in Enfield.  (ibid.)
>

> 9 July 2009” (source:http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&as_q=%22girders%22&as_epq=john+mord...)

>
> The website, ‘http://www.girders.net/’by Ian Rogers states the
> following with respect to a Cecily Mordemore:
>
> “Cecily MORDEMORE   (fl.1424-5)
>
> = John(q.v.).  (www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=78825)
>
> 1424-5  Settlement of the action taken against them by John
> Langeford(q.v.) and others over a messuage in Edmonton.  (ibid.)
>

> 24 September 2008” (source:http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&as_q=%22girders%22&as_epq=john+mord...)

>
> “Cecilia MORDEMORE   (fl.1438-9)
>
> = John(q.v.).  (www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=78825)
>
> 1438-9  Settlement of their action taken against John Appulby(q.v.) and
> his wife, Margaret(q.v.), deforciants of premises in Edmonton.
> (ibid.)
>
> 1439-40 Settlement of their action against John Leche(q.v.) and his
> wife, Joan, deforciants of a messuage in Enfield.  (ibid.)
>

> 9 July 2009” (source:http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&as_q=%22girders%22&as_epq=john+mord...)

>
> The website, ‘http://www.girders.net/’by Ian Rogers states the
> following with respect to a Richard de Mordemore:
>
> “Richard de MORDEMORE   (fl.1407-8)
> of Enfield.
>
> 1407-8  Settlement of his action against Robert Crokesle(q.v.) and his
> wife, Sibyl, deforciants of premises in Enfield.  (www.british-
> history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=78823)
>

> 25 July 2008” (source:http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&as_q=%22girders%22&as_epq=john+mord...)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Pete Dale
>
> (pd...@peterdale.com)

[Matt Tompkins]

On May 12, 9:03 am, "pd...@peterdale.com" <pd...@peterdale.com> wrote:
> The National Archives website has the following entries of interest
> for a John Mordemore in Enfield and Edmonton, Middlesex.  I propose
> that this individual may be the father of Averia Mortimer, wife of
> William Wroth of Enfield, Middlesex, (b. 1389 and d. 1450).  John
> Mordemore lived in Enfield and Edmonton, Middlesex contemporaneously
> with William Wroth.  In fact William was a witness to one of the land
> record transactions involving John Mordemore.  I welcome any/all
> thoughts with respect to same.  In particular, I am interested in
> knowing how I may go about obtaining a copy of the will of John
> Mordemore, the elder, apparently set forth in the following record -
> (C 1/26/537) dated 29 Sept. 21 Henry VI.:

<snip>

> “Item reference C 1/26/537 ...
>
> Record Summary
> Scope and content       John Basyn alias Hobbys and Julian his wife, late
> the wife of John, son of John Mordemore v. John Hunsdon, feoffee of
> the said John Mordemore the elder.: Messuages, lands, &c. in Enfield
> (Enefeld) and Edmonton (Edelmeton): the answer contains copy of the
> will of the said John the elder, dated 29 Sept. 21 Hen. VI. [1442-43]:
> Middlesex.
> Covering dates  1456-1460
> Held by The National Archives, Kew
>

> Legal status    Public Record(s)” (source:http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails....)

<snip>


Photos of John Basyn als Hobbys' plaint and John Hunsdon's answer can
be seen on the A-ALT website, here:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no26/C1no26nos401-550/IMG_0721.htm

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no26/C1no26nos401-550/IMG_0722.htm

The latter document (Hunsdon's answer) is a large one and was
photographed again in three parts, which can be seen in the three
following images (0723-5).

Both documents are in English, though most of Hunsdon's answer is a
verbatim copy of John Moredemore's will, which is in Latin.

Matt Tompkins

[pd...@peterdale.com]

Greetings,

Thank you very much Matt for the links. That is very helpful.
Unfortunately I am unable to translate Latin (and would likely
struggle with the transcription as well!). I will, however, work to
identify someone who can transcribe/translate the will. In the
interim, if anyone is able to even briefly peruse the will to see if
there are any Averia (and variants), Wroth or other similar references
(or alternatively a lack thereof) that would be of great assistance to
all of us. Thank you.

Cheers,

Pete

[Matt Tompkins]

I'm afraid the will does not mention an Averia.

The testator describes himself as 'John Mordmore, citizen and brewer
of London, son and heir of Richard Mordmore formerly of Enfield in
Middlesex, deceased' and mentions his wife Cecily, his sons John,
William and Richard (all under 21) and his daughters Margaret, Isabel
and Joan (all under 21 and unmarried). The will was made on 29
September 1442 in London.

It also mentions Mordmore's feoffees 'John Bristow, Thomas ?Honsdon
---- and John ?Swetyngwer' and is entirely concerned with directing
that they should hold his lands in Enfield and Edmonton for Cecily
during her life and then divide them between his children.

Matt Tompkins

[pd...@peterdale.com]

Many thanks Matt – that was very helpful.

It would appear that: (i) a John Mordemore, husband of a Cecily, was
referred to as ‘the younger’ in 1421, (ii) a John Mordemore of
Enfield, ‘the younger’ was referred to in Fine Rolls in 1432, and
(iii) a John Moidemour ‘the younger’ of Middlesex was referred to in
Fine Rolls in 1436 (please see below for details).

In a record dated between 1456-60, reference is made to John Mordemore
‘the elder’. In the will of John Mordemore the elder (d. approx.
1442) there is reference to him (I’m making the assumption he is the
same individual as the John and Cecily above at this time) as 'John

Mordmore, citizen and brewer of London, son and heir of Richard

Mordmore formerly of Enfield in Middlesex, deceased' and husband of
Cecily.

It would appear from the above that there was an older John
Mordemore(s) who, from at least 1421-1436, was ‘the elder’. I’m going
to hazard to guess that he was the brother of Richard Mordemore
(father of John Mordemore, husband of Cecily) and the John Mordemor
referenced together with Richard Mordemor in a land record dated 1411
(set forth above).

Perhaps this elder John Mordemore was the father of Averia, wife of
William Wroth. If that was the case (and the above assumptions are
accurate), the younger John Mordemore, husband of Cecily, would be
Averia’s 1st cousin. There certainly would have been contemporaneous
proximity between the Wroth and Mordemore families in both Enfield/
Edmonton, Middlesex and London.

********

The book, 'London and Middlesex Fines: Henry IV', A Calendar to the
Feet of Fines for London & Middlesex: volume 1: Richard I - Richard
III (1892), pp. 169-177, sets forth the following information with

respect to a Richard de Mordemore:

“Henry IV

60. Richard de Mordemore, of Enfeld, and Robert Crokesle, and Sibyl,
his wife. Premises in Enfeld. Anno 9. [1407-08]” (source:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=78823)

The book, 'London and Middlesex Fines: Henry V', A Calendar to the
Feet of Fines for London & Middlesex: volume 1: Richard I - Richard
III (1892), pp. 177-181, sets forth the following information with

respect to a John Mordemore:

“Henry V

40. John Pyke, John Draytone, and Thomas Saberne, and John Mordemore,
the younger, and Cecily, his wife. Premises in Edelmeton and
Tottenham. Anno 9. [1421-22]” (source: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=78824)

The book, 'London and Middlesex Fines: Henry VI', A Calendar to the
Feet of Fines for London & Middlesex: volume 1: Richard I - Richard
III (1892), pp. 182-202, sets forth the following information with

respect to a John Mordemore:

“Henry VI

18. John Langeford, Peter Rowe, and John Snell, of Edelmeton, and John
Mordmore, and Cecily, his wife. A messuage in Edelmeton. Anno 3.
[1424-25] ...
89. John Mordemore, and Cecilia, his wife, and John Appulby, and
Margaret, his wife. Premises in Edelmeton. Anno 17. [1438-39] ...

94. John Mordemore, and Cecilia, his wife, and John Leche, and Joan,
his wife. A messuage in Enefeld. Anno 18. [1439-40]” (source:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=78825)

The book, ‘Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public Record
Office (1911)’, Public Record Office, published by His Majesty’s
Stationery Office, sets forth the following information with respect
to a John Mordemore:

p. 107

“11 HENRY VI.
1432. Membrane 27 cont.

Thomas Aubrey of Redeclyff, John Mordemore of Enfeld the younger,
Robert Somersett of Colbroke, John Roger; Middlesex.”

p. 284

“14 HENRY VI.
1436 Membrane 10 cont.

John Benet of Stanes, John Moidemour the younger, Hugh Smyth, Richard
Broune; in the county of Middlesex; excepting 36l. 14s. 3 3/4d. to be
distributed by the abbot of Westminster, and by Thomas Frowyk and
Walter Grene, knights coming to Parliament.” (source:
http://archive.org/stream/calendaroffinero16greauoft#page/n3/mode/2up)

********

I welcome any thoughts or suggestions for further research or
commentary on the above.

Cheers & thanks,

Pete Dale

[Matt Tompkins]

On May 14, 2:51 am, "pd...@peterdale.com" <pd...@peterdale.com> wrote:
> Many thanks Matt – that was very helpful.
>
> It would appear that:  (i) a John Mordemore, husband of a Cecily, was
> referred to as ‘the younger’ in 1421, (ii) a John Mordemore of
> Enfield, ‘the younger’ was referred to in Fine Rolls in 1432, and
> (iii) a John Moidemour ‘the younger’ of Middlesex was referred to in
> Fine Rolls in 1436 (please see below for details).
>
> In a record dated between 1456-60, reference is made to John Mordemore
> ‘the elder’.  In the will of John Mordemore the elder (d. approx.
> 1442) there is reference to him (I’m making the assumption he is the
> same individual as the John and Cecily above at this time) as 'John
> Mordmore, citizen and brewer of London, son and heir of Richard
> Mordmore formerly of Enfield in Middlesex, deceased' and husband of
> Cecily.
>
> It would appear from the above that there was an older John
> Mordemore(s) who, from at least 1421-1436, was ‘the elder’.  I’m going
> to hazard to guess that he was the brother of Richard Mordemore
> (father of John Mordemore, husband of Cecily) and the John Mordemor
> referenced together with Richard Mordemor in a land record dated 1411
> (set forth above).

Another possibility - admittedly a less probable one than a nephew-
uncle relationship - is that John Mordemore the elder was the older
brother of John Mordemore the younger. Siblings with the same name
were not unknown at this time (think of the Pastons).

> Perhaps this elder John Mordemore was the father of Averia, wife of
> William Wroth.  If that was the case (and the above assumptions are
> accurate), the younger John Mordemore, husband of Cecily, would be
> Averia’s 1st cousin.  There certainly would have been contemporaneous
> proximity between the Wroth and Mordemore families in both Enfield/
> Edmonton, Middlesex and London.
>
> ********

<snip>

> ********
>
> I welcome any thoughts or suggestions for further research or
> commentary on the above.
>
> Cheers & thanks,
>
> Pete Dale

One possibility would be to follow up the references in the
Archaeologia Cantiana article which is the only source for Averia's
forename. The article does not provide a specific documentary
reference for Averia - she is just a name in a pedigree - but it does
describe in a general way the genesis of the pedigree which mentions
her.

It says that in the early 19th century a Canon Lane, rector of
Wrotham, ‘found among his papers a record of certain legal
proceedings, from which he has transcribed the following particulars
[meaning the pedigree which follows]. The pedigree has been verified,
and amended, by his son, Mr Henry Murray Lane, who holds the position
of Chester Herald in the College of Arms.” In the year 1786 a suit in
chancery was commenced by William Henry Nassau, earl of Rochford, and
John Lane esq. against several individuals, presumably trustees,
claiming the Wroth estate in Enfield, and the pedigree was submitted
to the court (they won their case).

So it seems that more information about Averia might possibly be found
in (i) the records of the Chancery lawsuit, (ii) the College of Arms,
(iii) Lane family papers, if any can be located, (iv) the records of
the ‘certain legal proceedings’, once these have been identified, and
(v) just possibly, the Wrotham parochial records.

Matt Tompkins

[Matt Tompkins]

On May 14, 10:44 am, Matt Tompkins <ml...@le.ac.uk> wrote:
> One possibility would be to follow up the references in the
> Archaeologia Cantiana article which is the only source for Averia's
> forename.  The article does not provide a specific documentary
> reference for Averia - she is just a name in a pedigree - but it does
> describe in a general way the genesis of the pedigree which mentions
> her.
>
> It says that in the early 19th century a Canon Lane, rector of
> Wrotham, ‘found among his papers a record of certain legal
> proceedings, from which he has transcribed the following particulars
> [meaning the pedigree which follows].  The pedigree has been verified,
> and amended, by his son, Mr Henry Murray Lane, who holds the position
> of Chester Herald in the College of Arms.”  In the year 1786 a suit in
> chancery was commenced by William Henry Nassau, earl of Rochford, and
> John Lane esq. against several individuals, presumably trustees,
> claiming the Wroth estate in Enfield, and the pedigree was submitted
> to the court (they won their case).
>
> So it seems that more information about Averia might possibly be found
> in (i) the records of the Chancery lawsuit, (ii) the College of Arms,
> (iii) Lane family papers, if any can be located, (iv) the records of
> the ‘certain legal proceedings’, once these have been identified, and
> (v) just possibly, the Wrotham parochial records.
>
> Matt Tompkins

It has dawned on me that the 1786 Chancery lawsuit and the 'certain
legal proceedings' must be one and the same.

Matt Tompkins

[pd...@peterdale.com]

Hi Matt,

Your suggestions for further inquiry seem very sensible. I think you
are correct with respect to Averia’s name – i.e. appearing as such
only in the AC pedigree. She appears in other places (assuming it is
the same individual) as, among other names, Almerica and Amery. I
have no idea how one would identify and source the 1786 Chancery
lawsuit? Any suggestions from any other members of this forum?

I received an e-mail from Peter Hammond, President of the Richard III
Society, on May 11, 2012, in response to my inquiry of him regarding
William Wrothe and Averia Mortimer. He provided me with the following
information:

“The Richard III Society disk of published non PCC wills for the 15th
century does not include a will for William or Averia Wroth. Given
their position the absence from local sources and the PCC is slightly
odd but wills do go missing of course. Secondly William's IPM was
published in very abbreviated form in the Record Society edition in
1828 (Calendarium Inquisitionem Post Mortem, vol. 4, p.240, 28 Henry
VI [1449-50]) and I attach a copy of the entry which may be of use to
you. There is no entry for Averia or versions.”

**Note - the summary of the IPM was indeed very brief and simply
listed property in Honey Lane, London and Newton Pleysey [sic], Exton
and Hawkerygge [sic], Somerset. I believe the full IPM can be found
here - "William Wroth esquire" of London and Somerset, 28 Henry VI
(1449-50) at C 139/137/6. However, none appears for his wife.**

-and-

I received an e-mail from Lynda Pidgeon, Research Officer Richard III
Society, on May 9, 2012, in response to my inquiry of her regarding
William Wrothe and Averia Mortimer. She provided me with the
following information:

“The TNA catalogue had four hits for William Wroth one of which was
William Wrothe esq of Somerset C137/171/18, however the ref is to an
inquisition.

A search on access to archives (A2A) which can also be found via the
TNA listed a number of Wroth's in the south west.

A number of Inquisitions have been published, though I'm not sure if
the 1450s is covered yet or not, often county record societies have
published some, also wills and the medieval genealogy web site will be
useful for this as it has a county index.

I know there is a volume of Somerset wills, but I can't remember the
extent of the coverage. I have checked the societies index of
testators and cannot find either Wroth or Mortimer.”

The National Archives website provides the following information on
the Inquest Post Mortem of William Wrothe, esq. [Sr.] referenced by
Ms. Pidgeon above:

“Item reference C 137/71/18
William Wrothe, esquire: Somerset ...

Scope and content William Wrothe, esquire: Somerset

Covering dates 10 Hen IV [1408-09]

Held by The National Archives, Kew

Legal status Public Record(s)

Language Latin” (source:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-5156212)

Query? Has anyone had an opportunity to review the above 2 referenced
IPMs (if so I’d love to see a copy of same!) and have any wills for
William Wroth Sr., Jr. or Averia every been identified in any
documents or literature or, obviously, reviewed if they exist?
Perhaps the aforementioned may shed some light on matters.

Cheers,

Pete

[Matt Tompkins]

On May 14, 6:40 pm, "pd...@peterdale.com" <pd...@peterdale.com> wrote:
> Hi Matt,
>
> Your suggestions for further inquiry seem very sensible.  I think you
> are correct with respect to Averia’s name – i.e. appearing as such
> only in the AC pedigree.  She appears in other places (assuming it is
> the same individual) as, among other names, Almerica and Amery.  I
> have no idea how one would identify and source the 1786 Chancery
> lawsuit?  Any suggestions from any other members of this forum?

I think you would have to go to the National Archives in Kew
(southwest London) and find the original records of the case. So far
as I am aware there is no on-line means of identifying even the
relevant reference numbers in the Catalogue (which for this period
does not identify individual cases), let alone getting a look at the
records themselves. Nor is there even a printed index or list for
Chancery records of the late 18th century.

I've never worked in them myself, but I gather the records of the
court of Chancery in this period are voluminous and complicated. TNA's
on-line guide to researching in them is here:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/chancery-equity-from-1558.htm

And by coincidence the TNA website is currently promoting a recently
published guide to genealogical research in the Chancery records -
see:

https://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/browse_frm/thread/3b3b7a809005b4d8/875ebf6ddbc561a1?hl=en#875ebf6ddbc561a1

> Language                                Latin” (source:http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails....)

>
> Query?  Has anyone had an opportunity to review the above 2 referenced
> IPMs (if so I’d love to see a copy of same!) and have any wills for
> William Wroth Sr., Jr. or Averia every been identified in any
> documents or literature or, obviously, reviewed if they exist?
> Perhaps the aforementioned may shed some light on matters.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Pete

I think the 1408-9 IpM, of William Wrothe, esq., of Somerset (C
137/71/18) is probably calendared in:

JL Kirby, Calendar of inquisitions post mortem and other analogous
documents preserved in the Public Record Office. Vol.19, Henry IV,
1405-1413 (1992).

I'm not aware of any printed calendar covering IpMs from 1449-50.

Matt

[Matt Tompkins]

On May 15, 12:03 pm, Matt Tompkins <ml...@le.ac.uk> wrote:

> And by coincidence the TNA website is currently promoting a recently
> published guide to genealogical research in the Chancery records -
> see:
>

> https://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/browse_frm/thr...
>

Oops. I meant:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/bookshop/details.aspx?titleId=146

[MILLARD A.R.]

> From: Matt Tompkins [mailto:ml...@le.ac.uk]
> Sent: 15 May 2012 12:03

>
> I think you would have to go to the National Archives in Kew
> (southwest London) and find the original records of the case. So
> far
> as I am aware there is no on-line means of identifying even the
> relevant reference numbers in the Catalogue (which for this period
> does not identify individual cases), let alone getting a look at
> the
> records themselves. Nor is there even a printed index or list for
> Chancery records of the late 18th century.

The one place where you might find indexed information to speed the search is in the Great Card Index or the Bernau Index of the Society of Genealogists in London. These have been filmed so may be available elsewhere. The Great Card Index includes "references to Chancery Proceedings, and "The Bernau Index includes "every litigant in Chancery between 1714 and 1758", but also much more.
http://www.sog.org.uk/library/lower.shtml#gci

Best wishes

Andrew
--
Andrew Millard - A.R.M...@durham.ac.uk
Bodimeade genealogy:   http://www.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/Bodimeade/
My family history:     http://www.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/
GenUKI Middx + London: http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/ + ../LND/

[Matt Tompkins]

Peter, I just noticed a notice on our departmental notice board
announcing that the Mortimer History Society (website:
www.mortimerhistorysociety.org.uk) are holding their Spring Conference
in Leominster on 12 May (last Saturday!). If you haven't already made
contact with them, they might be as useful as the Richard III Society.

Matt

[pd...@peterdale.com]

Hi Matt/ Andrew,

Many thanks for both your comments and suggestions. I may arrange for
someone to attend Kew to conduct a little research for me regarding
the Chancery records. I will also attempt to located the 1408/9
William Wrothe (Sr.) IPM at the Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval
Studies in Toronto in the next few days (it is less than 15 minutes
from my home). Lastly, I will certainly contact the Mortimer
Historical Society and will report back the results thereof. Thank
you both again!

Cheers,

Pete

[Wjhonson]

I had mentioned some time back that it's highly likely that the reading of "Averia" as a name for a daughter is a misreading by a person who didn't know how to read the document they were holding.

Perhaps you can find a will where the donor gives "Averia" and the word is in the relation of an object, not a subject, which is always problematic in a language you don't really understand.

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To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
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[pd...@peterdale.com]

> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com

> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of

> the message- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi Will,

Thank you for your contribution to this discussion – your suggestion
is a good one. I would be interested in your further thoughts post my
prior correspondence to you re the Wroth family of Enfield, Middlesex.

Cheers,

Pete

[Matt Tompkins]

On May 17, 5:15 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
>  I had mentioned some time back that it's highly likely that the reading of "Averia" as a name for a daughter is a misreading by a person who didn't know how to read the document they were holding.
>
> Perhaps you can find a will where the donor gives "Averia" and the word is in the relation of an object, not a subject, which is always problematic in a language you don't really understand.

I think it's rather unlikely that Averia Mortimer's forename is a
misreading by someone who didn't know how to read a document, given
that the source for her name is a pedigree put together by a late 18th-
century Chancery lawyer and checked by a 19th-century clergyman and a
herald at the College of Arms (Charles Lane, rector of
Wrotham,educated at Harrow School and Cambridge and Oxford
universities, and his son, Henry Murray Lane, Chester Herald). They
would all have been fully competent in Latin and familiar with late
medieval records, especially the herald.

Matt

[pd...@peterdale.com]

On May 17, 8:22 am, Matt Tompkins <ml...@le.ac.uk> wrote:
> On May 17, 5:15 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >  I had mentioned some time back that it's highly likely that the reading of "Averia" as a name for a daughter is a misreading by a person who didn't know how to read the document they were holding.
>
> > Perhaps you can find a will where the donor gives "Averia" and the word is in the relation of an object, not a subject, which is always problematic in a language you don't really understand.
>

> I think it's rather unlikely thatAveriaMortimer's forename is a

> misreading by someone who didn't know how to read a document, given
> that the source for her name is a pedigree put together by a late 18th-
> century Chancery lawyer and checked by a 19th-century clergyman and a
> herald at the College of Arms (Charles Lane, rector of
> Wrotham,educated at Harrow School and Cambridge and Oxford
> universities, and his son, Henry Murray Lane, Chester Herald).  They
> would all have been fully competent in Latin and familiar with late
> medieval records, especially the herald.
>
> Matt

Greetings,

Just a FYI re the IPM of William Wroth, Sr.

The book, ‘Calendar of the Inquisitions Post Mortem, and other
Analogous Documents preserved in the Public Record Office’, Vol. 19,
7-14 Henry IV (1405-1413), edited by J. L. Kirby, HMSO, London, p.
189, states the following with respect to William Wrothe, Esquire:

“William Wrothe, Esquire
517. Writ 17 Nov. 1408.
Somerset. Inquisition. Bridgewater. 1 April 1409.
He held in his demesne as a fee of the king in chief by knight service
a third part of the manor of North Newton with the advowson of the
chapel at the third presentation, annual value 16 marks; and two
tenements in Exton and Hawkridge with the advowsons of those places at
the third presentations, annually value 2 marks.

He died on 17 Sept. 1408. William his son and next heir is aged 18
years and more.

C 137/71, no. 18
E 149/94, no. 7
E 152/427, no. 5”

[Wjhonson]

Thanks for you've put a nasty crimp in the family by stating that
William Wroth of Durants Newton and Enfield, co Mdx was born 1389/91 ish
Since that now puts his *grandmother* Matilda Durant in a wifely context to directly conflict with John Wrothe's *first* wife (so said) was was LIVING yet in 1377 when she appears in her uncle Thomas' IPM that year living.

Rotten Nasty Trick !

-----Original Message-----
From: pdale <pd...@peterdale.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 5, 2012 7:40 pm
Subject: Re: Averia Mortimer, wife of William Wroth of Enfield, Middlesex

[rgf...@outlook.com]

Pete,
What was the reply of the Mortimer Historical Society?
Bob

[Alan DeCarlo]

On Thursday, April 6, 2023 at 9:28:57 AM UTC-4, Alan DeCarlo wrote:
> On Thursday, April 6, 2023 at 9:27:45 AM UTC-4, Alan DeCarlo wrote: