Merovingian ancestors after all ?
Leo
Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Eight Edition
with additions and corrections by William R Beall and Kaleen E. Beall
The sad part is that this correction starts with "suggested" by David H. Kelley, 2003.
This lineage starts with Clovis and six generations later we find
Thierry III b.654, d.691; married Clotilde
their daughter
Berthe (Bertree), living 720 married NN
her son
Charibert (Herbert) liv.720-747, Count of Laon, m. Gisele (Bretrade sic, should this be Bertrade?)
their daughter
Berthe of Laon d.783, married Pepin III the Short
ES volume 1 Tafel 1 (Freytag von Loringhoven)
Theoderich III died 691, married Clotilde
three children Chlodovech III, Childebert III and ? Chlotar IV
ES 1,1 Tafel 1 (Schwennicke)
Theuderich III born (653), d.690/691, married Chrodechild
two sons Chlodwig III and Childebert III
Is this link from the Merovingians to the Carolingians accepted?
Many thanks,
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
taf
In a word, no. This is the speculation (presented as such with a
dotted line in the table) of Maurice Chaume.
taf
HSJ
Dear newsgroup,
Regarding the descent from early Merovingian kings, newsgroup members
will doubtless be interested in the recent correspondence I had with
the renowned genealogist Christian Settipani about this matter. I've
copied below my original email to Mr. Settipani and his cordial reply
to me.
Sincerely,
Hardwick Smith Johnson, Jr., EdD
****************************
Merovingian Ancestry
Monday, February 23, 2009 7:11 PM
From: "Hardwick Johnson" <hsjohnson30...@yahoo.com>
To:ina...@club-internet.fr
Cc:hsjohnson30...@yahoo.com
Dear Mr. Settipani,
I am writing because of my interest in Merovingian Ancesty. I have
read some of your writings and am hoping that you may clarify some of
my questions.
I read a posting of yours on the medieval genealogy website, from 20
November 1999, where you made a strong case for the Merovingian
Ancestry of Berta. I am not a professional genealogist but was
impressed with your reasoning.
I'm wondering if you still hold this position? Do you believe that
Berta was of Merovingian ancestry as indicated in your Les Ancestre de
Charlemagne?
I know you must have much work to keep you busy. I greatly appreciate
your work and hope for a response to my inquiry.
Respectfully,
Hardwick Smith Johnson, Jr., EdD
--- On Tue, 2/24/09, ina...@club-internet.fr <ina...@club-internet.fr>
wrote:
From: ina...@club-internet.fr <ina...@club-internet.fr>
Subject: Re: Merovingian Ancestry
To: hsjohnson30...@yahoo.com
Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 1:03 PM
Yes I'm always confident with that. Moreover the merovingian
ancestry of Beta is the only one wich find credit with mosts medieval
historians and not only with genealogists. Of course, this doesn't
prove that the assumption is correct. Just that this is a probable
conjecture (I know that hypercritics don't share this conclusion, but
thy are really in minority).
Christian Settipani
WJho...@aol.com
673-91
was not born in 654
We don't know the year in which he was born
We know, he was his father's third son and he was "not more than 15" in 670
He was consigned to the Convent of St Denis, he was later taken from the
convent and made king.
I have him born 655/658
Don Stone
Here is Marshall K. Kirk's rough translation of the most relevant part
of Settipani's /Les ancêtres de Charlemagne/ (1989), namely his
treatment of Bertha of Prum (pp. 29-31):
13 Bertha of Prum, foundress of the abbey of Prum 721.
[list of sources and a bibliography including M. Chaume, E. Hlawitschka,
S. de Vajay, N. Gauthier, M. Werner, and C. Bouchard]
Bertrade or Bertha made in 721 an important donation of lands inherited
from her ancestors for the foundation of the monastery of Prum. This
donation intervenes for the repose of deceased sons, and it is
countersigned by her surviving son, Caribert, as well as by three viri
magnifici: Bernier, Rolande, and Thierry.
In order to retrieve the ancestors of Bertha, we dispose of two
elements: onomastics, and the identification of her properties.
On the level of nomenclature, the names of Bertha, Caribert her son,
Thierry her relative, are all characteristic of the Merovingian dynasty.
This is the reason for which the majority of historians, especially in
France, don't doubt that Bertha belonged to this dynasty. It remains,
however, difficult to specify in what fashion to state this. That
Thierry and the two other subscribers of the charter, Bernier and
Rolande, made part of the close kin of Bertha and of her son Caribert,
is what emerges fully from analysis of the testament of Fulrad of
Sain-Denis and of the family of Saint William of Gellone. Fulrad names,
as co-proprietors of numerous goods which he'd bought from them,
Caribert and Thierry, without any doubt the two individuals of the
charter of Prum. If they were co-proprietors, then they had, in quite a
close degree, a common ancestor. Saint William (d. 804), for his part,
had as children a Thierry, a Garnier, a Rolande, and a Caribert, while
one of his sisters was called Bertha.
Above all, one notes the fact that in 751, Pepin the Short and his
spouse Bertha, granddaughter of our subject, had in common two
properties, Rommersheim and Rheinbach, of which they each held a moiety
from their respective fathers, Charles Martel and Caribert of Laon. That
signifies that Charles Martel and Caribert were directly related and
that they had therefore inherited from the same personage a moiety of
these two villas. For Caribert, it is known, thanks to the act of
foundation of Prum, that Rommersheim came to him from his mother, and
thus that it is by way of her that the sought-for alliance passes. E.
HLAWITSCHKA has, moreover, excluded -- with reason -- the possibility
that Bertha obtained this land from her spouse, since she expressly
declares that she is giving goods which came to her from her ancestors.
There remain only three options: Bertha was the sister (or cousin) of
Pepin, father of Charles; or of Alpaide, his mother; or perhaps of
Plectrude, first spouse of Pepin, from whom Charles had inherited the
property at the deaths of the last descendants of this last. E.
HLAWITSCHKA, who has weighed the various solutions at length, concludes
that one can throw out the idea that Bertha was Pepin's sister. In this
case, in fact, Bertha would have been a Pepinid, which is ruled out by
the silence of the sources, and above all by the fact that the degree of
consanguinity between Pepin the Short and his spouse would thus have
been prohibited. The two other possibilities are equiprobable, the first
having, nevertheless, the advantage of simplicity, unless another
argument comes along to reinforce the second. Now, this is precisely
what happens. The second subscriber of the donation of Prum is the noble
Rolande, namesake of a sister of Plectrude. Whether we're talking about
a single person or two related homonyms is of small import. In either
case, Bertha was surely related to Plectrude. In order to justify her
having divided with the latter a moiety of Rommersheim and Rheinbach, it
is necessary that they were cousins german or more probably sisters.
This is the demonstration generally followed by the most recent authors,
notably N. GAUTHIER.
The trouble is, that this solution makes no use at all of the onomastic
element which strongly suggests, all the same, the relationship of
Bertha with the Merovingians. Besides the names even of Bertha and of
Caribert, her son, it is necessary, in fact, to add the name of Thierry,
borne by a grandson of Bertha, and those of Louis (= Clovis) and Lothar
(= Clotaire), borne by two sons of Charlemagne. It has indeed been
claimed, most recently by J. JARNUT, that in the latter case, only
political motives guided the choice of these names, but that's opposed
to all the onomastic habits of the Franks, according to which only a
direct blood tie could authorize the re-use of a name. S. de VAJAY thus
suggested in 1975 that Bertha of Prum was the daughter of Thierry III,
thus sister of Clovis III and Clotaire IV. This is indeed the better
solution on the onomastic level, but it doesn't seem, on the other hand,
to take stock of the elements imposed by the inheritances. That is to
forget that, as M. CHAUME noted, the spouse of Thierry III was Dode,
probably sister of Pepin of Heristal. Thus, Bertha of Prum, daughter of
Thierry III, would find herself at the same time the cousin german of
Charles Martel, which indeed explains, if she held her parts of
Rommersheim and Rheinbach from her maternal ancestors, the consanguinity
-- in a licit degree this time -- between her granddaughter Bertha of
Laon and the latter's spouse, Pepin the Short, son of Charles Martel:
[chart]
Chuck Owens
November 16, 1999, where he mentioned that King Clothar IV, possibly
the son of King Thierry III, was called the cousin of Charles Martel
in Ademar of Chabannes’ chronicle.
David Topping
Further additional information can be found here:
http://livearchive.org/2011/pdf/addcharleng-dmix/
David