Elizabeth II to Henry IV

[Leo]

Dean mentioned:

I have been looking at discussions regarding various lines of descent for Elizabeth II from English Kings and noticed that a descent from Henry IV was one of many mentioned.


--------
In my data base I have at least four different lines from Queen Elizabeth II to Henry IV.

Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

[Matt A]

Interesting. Would you mind posting the other three? Or however many others you can rustle up?

-Matt

[Leo]

> In my data base I have at least four different lines from Queen Elizabeth II to Henry IV.
>
> Leo van de Pas
> Canberra, Australia

Interesting. Would you mind posting the other three? Or however many others you can rustle up?

-Matt

Dear Matt,

To spell them out would take hours of work for me.

In my system I can ask whether A descends from B and if there is a link it will show the steps. If there are more lines it will still only show the first line it found.

I can also ask how many times A is descended from B and in the answer the numbers in the ancestor list will be given, but only as long as the number is not more than 5 digits. However often I can make a simple ancestor list, find the first number and then ask for the number again and again and often (up to a point) I can find numbers larger than 5 digits.

>From Queen Elizabeth II it is at least 19 generations to Henry IV and so the numbers are too large. The only thing to try is to reduce the number of generations.

Is George VI a descendant of Henry IV ? No. All four go via the late Queen Mother.

Is her father a descendant? No. And so all four lines are via Nina Cecilia Cavendish-Bentinck.

Her father Rev. Charles Cavendish-Bentinck again is the one with 4 lines.

But it is his father who has three lines and his mother has one. The latter line is already shown.

Lord Charles Cavendish-Bentinck, in his ancestor list King Henry IV is 38196, 52532 and 125748

Anne Wellesley in her ancestor list Henri IV is nr 43068

Here is one line

Henry IV king of England
|
Humphrey duke of Gloucester
|
Antigone
|
Richard Grey, Baron Grey of Powis
|
Elizabeth Grey
|
Alice Ludlow
|
George Vernon
|
Sir John Vernon
|
Elizabeth Vernon
|
Lady Penelope Wriothesley
|
Henry Spencer 1st earl of Sunderland
|
Lady Dorothy Spencer
|
William Savile 2.marquess of Halifax
|
Lady Dorothy Savile
|
Charlotte Elizabeth Boyle
|
Lady Dorothy Cavendish
|
Lord Charles Cavendish-Bentinck
|
Rev Charles Cavendish-Bentinck
|
Nina Cecilia Cavendish-Bentinck
|
Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon
|
Elizabeth II

[John Higgins]

Leo mentions above that the late Queen Mother's ancestor Rev. Charles
cavendish-Bentinck has 4 lines of descent from Henry IV: three from
his father Lord Charles C-B and one from his mother Anne Wellesley. I
show an additional descent for Anne Wellesley, for a total of 5 for
Rev. Charles.

Both of the descents for Anne Wellesley come via her grandmother Anne
Hill of Dungannon. Two of the descents for Anne's husband come via
his his mother Dorothy Cavendish, while the third comes via his
paternal great-grandmother Elizabeth Noel (wife of the 1st Duke of
Portland). I'll see if I can lay out these descents more explicitly.

FWIW Prince Charles has only these 5 Henry IV descents from his
grandmother the QM, but Princess Diana has (at least) 21 descents from
Henry IV.

[James Dow Allen]

John Higgins <jhigg...@yahoo.com> might have writ, in news:c12116ee-e746-4308...@h8g2000pbt.googlegroups.com:

>
> FWIW Prince Charles has only these 5 Henry IV descents from his
> grandmother the QM, but Princess Diana has (at least) 21 descents from
> Henry IV.

My software will show all paths, compacted into either a Descendancy chart,
or into an Ancestor list. I'll present 4 descents from Henry IV to Charles
in the first format; 11 ascents from Diana to Henry IV in the second format.

Unfortunately I'm at the mercy of errors and omissions in my database.
I seem to be missing 1 descent for Charles and 10 for Diana.
(My database has the "feature" that it includes incorrect lines!
If Charles Lennox 4th Duke is son of 3rd Duke and wife Mary Bruce,
I get another line from Diana but am still a long ways from 21.)

James

============

4 paths

1. Henry IV PLANTAGENET (King) of ENGLAND (1366 - 20/3/1413)
2. Humphrey (K.G.) of LANCASTER (1390 - 1447)
3. Antigone (Bastard) of GLOUCESTER (by 1428 - ?)
4. Richard GREY (1436 - 7/12/1466)
5. Elizabeth GREY (1462? - ?)
6. Alice LUDLOW (1483 - ?)
7. George (of Hodnet) VERNON (? - 1553?)
8. John (Sir; of Hodnet) VERNON (1547? - 1592?)
9. Elizabeth VERNON (1573 - 1655+)
10. Thomas WRIOTHESLEY (4th Earl) of SOUTHAMPTON (1607 - 1667)
11. Rachel (Lady) WRIOTHESLEY (1637? - 1723)
12. Rachel (Lady) RUSSELL (1674 - 1725)
13. William (3rd Duke of Devonshire) CAVENDISH (Derby 1698 - 1755 Derbys.)
14. William (4th Duke of Devonshire) CAVENDISH (1720 - 1764 Spa, Germany)
Wife. Charlotte Elizabeth BOYLE (1731 - 1754)
15. Dorothy (Lady) CAVENDISH (Devon 1750 - 1794 London)
Husb. William Henry BENTINCK (CAVENDISH-BENTINCK) (1736 - 1809 Buckinghams.)
11. Elizabeth (Lady of Southampton) WRIOTHESLEY (? - by 1683)
12. Wriothesley Baptist (Sir) NOEL (? - 1690)
13. Elizabeth (Lady of Gainsborough) NOEL (London ? - 1737)
14. William (2nd Duke of PORTLAND) BENTINCK (Nottinghams. 1709 - 1762 Nottinghams.)
15. William Henry BENTINCK (CAVENDISH-BENTINCK) (1736 - 1809 Buckinghams.)
Wife. Dorothy (Lady) CAVENDISH (Devon 1750 - 1794 London)
16. William Charles Augustus (Lord) CAVENDISH-BENTINCK (1780 - 1826)
Wife. Anne WELLESLEY (1788 - 1875)
17. Charles William Frederick (Rev.) CAVENDISH-BENTINCK (1817 - 1865)
18. Nina Cecilia CAVENDISH-BENTINCK (1862 - 1938 London)
19. Elizabeth Angela Marguerite (Lady) BOWES-LYON (London 1900 - 2002)
20. Elizabeth II Alexandra Mary WINDSOR (Queen) of ENGLAND (London 1926)
21. Charles Philip Arthur George WINDSOR (Prince of Wales) (London 1948)
10. Penelope (Lady of Southampton) WRIOTHESLEY (1598 - 1667)
11. Henry SPENCER (Northampts. 1619? - 20/9/1643)
12. Dorothy (Lady of Sunderland) SPENCER (? - 1670)
13. William SAVILE (2nd Marquess of Halifax) (1665 - 1700)
14. Dorothy (Lady of Halifax) SAVILE (1699 - 1758)
15. Charlotte Elizabeth BOYLE (1731 - 1754)
Husb. William (4th Duke of Devonshire) CAVENDISH (1720 - 1764 Spa, Germany)
4. Elizabeth (Lady) GREY (1440? - 1501+)
5. Emma KYNASTON ()
6. Elizabeth EYTON ()
7. Edward TREVOR ()
8. John (of Brynkinhalt) TREVOR ()
9. Edward (Sir) TREVOR (Denbighs., Wales ? - 1649)
10. John (Sir; of Brynkinhalt) TREVOR ()
11. John (Sir; of Brynkinhalt) TREVOR (Denbighs., Wales 1637?? - 1717)
12. Anne (of Brynkinault) TREVOR (? - 1747)
13. Arthur (1st Viscount DUNGANNON) HILL-TREVOR (by 1699 - 1771 Dublin)
14. Anne HILL-TREVOR (1742 - 1831 London)
15. Richard Colley (K.G.) WESLEY (Meath, Ireland 1760 - 1842 Knightsbridge)
16. Anne WELLESLEY (1788 - 1875)
Husb. William Charles Augustus (Lord) CAVENDISH-BENTINCK (1780 - 1826)


=============

11 paths

1. Diana Frances (Lady) SPENCER (Norfolk 24/1/1961 - 31/8/1997 Paris)
2. Edward John (8th Earl) SPENCER (London 1924 - 1992 London)
3. Frances Ruth Burke (Hon.) ROCHE (Norfolk 1936 - 2004 Argylls.)
4. Albert Edward John (7th Earl) SPENCER (London 1892 - 1975 Northampton)
5. Cynthia Elinor Beatrix (Lady) HAMILTON (1897 - 1972)
6. Edmund Maurice Burke ROCHE (Chelsea 1885 - 1955)
8. Charles Robert (6th Earl) SPENCER (London 1857 - 1922 London)
9. Margaret (Hon.) BARING (London 1868 - 1906 London)
10. James Albert Edward HAMILTON (1869 - 1953)
11. Rosalind Cecilia Caroline (Lady) BINGHAM (1869 - 1959)
12. James Boothby Burke ROCHE (1851 - 1920)
16. Frederick (4th Earl) SPENCER (London 1798 - 1857 Northampton)
17. Adelaide Horatia Elizabeth SEYMOUR (1825 - 1877)
19. Louisa Emily Charlotte BULTEEL (1839 - 1892)
20. James HAMILTON (2nd Duke of ABERCORN) (1838 - 1913)
21. Mary Anna (Lady) CURZON-HOWE (Nottinghams. 1848 - 1929 Midx.)
22. George BINGHAM (4th Earl) of LUCAN (1830 - 1914)
25. Elizabeth (Eliza) Caroline BOOTHBY (1821 - 1897 Devons.)
32. George John (2nd Earl) SPENCER (Surrey 1758 - 1834 Northampton)
35. Elizabeth Malet PALK (? - 1827)
38. John Crocker BULTEEL (1793? - 1843 London)
39. Elizabeth (Lady) GREY (Northumberland 1798 - 1880 Westminster)
41. Louisa Jane (Duchess of Abercorn) RUSSELL (1812 - 1905 Sussex)
42. Richard William Penn CURZON (CURZON-HOWE) (1796 - 1870)
43. Anne Frances GORE (Bath 1817? - 1877)
45. Anne (Lady) BRUDENELL (Berks. 1809 - 1877)
50. James Brownell BOOTHBY (1791 - 1850 Midx.)
64. John (1st Earl) SPENCER (Northampton 1734 - 1784 Bath, Somerset)
70. Lawrence (2nd Baronet of Haldon) PALK (1766 - 1818)
76. John BULTEEL (1763 - 1837)
79. Mary Elizabeth PONSONBY (1776 - 1861 London)
82. John (K.G.) RUSSELL (London 1766 - 1839 Perth)
84. Penn Assheton (Hon.) CURZON (? - 1797)
86. John (Sir; Vice Admiral) GORE (Kilkenny, Eire 1772 - ?)
91. Penelope Anne COOKE (1760? - 1816)
100. William BOOTHBY (Leicesters. 1763 - 1845 Nottingham)
128. John (Viscount; of ALTHORP) SPENCER (Althorpe, Northampts. 1708 - 1746 Wimbledon, Surrey)
141. Anne VANSITTART (1743 - ?)
153. Diana BELLENDEN (Hertfords. 1731 - 1799 Bath)
158. William Barbazon (Brabazon) PONSONBY (Dublin 1744 - 1806 London)
164. Francis (Sir) RUSSELL (1739 - 1767)
168. Assheton (1st Viscount) CURZON (1730 - 1820)
169. Esther HANMER (? - 1764)
172. John (Colonel) GORE (1724? - 1794 Tower of London)
183. Penelope BOWYER (? - 1820)
200. William BOOTHBY (1732 - 1814 (or 1775))
256. Charles SPENCER, Prime Minister of England (1674 - 1722)
283. Martha STONHOUSE ()
306. John (3rd Lord) BELLENDEN (Dalhousie Castle 1686 - 1740 Hertfords.)
317. Elizabeth (Lady) CAVENDISH (1723 - 1760 (or '96))
328. John RUSSELL (4th Duke) of BEDFORD (1710 - 1771)
336. Nathaniel (Sir) CURZON (1675? - 1758)
338. William (of Fenns) HANMER (? - 1754)
344. William GORE (? - 1748)
367. Anne STONHOUSE (? - 1785)
400. Benjamin BOOTHBY (1712 - ?)
512. Robert (K.G.) SPENCER (Paris 1640 - 1702)
566. John (3rd Baronet) STONHOUSE (1673? - 1733)
613. Mary (Lady of DROGHEDA) MOORE (? - 1726)
634. William (3rd Duke of Devonshire) CAVENDISH (Derby 1698 - 1755 Derbys.)
656. Wriothesley RUSSELL (2nd Duke) of BEDFORD (1680 - 1711)
672. Nathaniel (Sir) CURZON (1635 - 1719)
676. William (of The Fenns) HANMER (? - 1724)
689. Hannah GORE ()
734. [same as 566] John (3rd Baronet) STONHOUSE (1673? - 1733)
800. Thomas BOOTHBY (1649? - 1714)
1024. Henry SPENCER (Northampts. 1619? - 20/9/1643)
1133. Martha BRIGGES (? - 1663?)
1227. Alice SPENCER (Northants. 1625? - 1696+)
1269. Rachel (Lady) RUSSELL (1674 - 1725)
1313. Rachel (Lady) WRIOTHESLEY (1637? - 1723)
1344. John (1st Baronet of KEDLESTON) CURZON (1599? - 1686)
1352. Thomas (of Fenns) HANMER (? - 1682+)
1379. Hannah HAMILTON ()
1600. Thomas BOOTHBY (1624?? - ?)
2049. Penelope (Lady of Southampton) WRIOTHESLEY (1598 - 1667)
2266. Robert BRIGGES ()
2455. [same as 2049] Penelope (Lady of Southampton) WRIOTHESLEY (1598 - 1667)
2539. [same as 1313] Rachel (Lady) WRIOTHESLEY (1637? - 1723)
2626. Thomas WRIOTHESLEY (4th Earl) of SOUTHAMPTON (1607 - 1667)
2688. John (of Kedleston) CURZON (? - 1632?)
2704. William (of Fenns) HANMER (? - 1669)
2758. James (Sir; of Manor Hamilton) HAMILTON ()
3200. Richard BOOTHBY ()
4099. Elizabeth VERNON (1573 - 1655+)
4533. Chrisogena GREY ()
5253. [same as 4099] Elizabeth VERNON (1573 - 1655+)
5377. Eleanor VERNON ()
5408. Thomas (Sir; of The FENNS) HANMER (1589? - 1625)
5409. Catherine PULESTON (? - 1621+)
5517. Sidney VAUGHAN ()
6401. Eleanor CURZON ()
8198. John (Sir; of Hodnet) VERNON (1547? - 1592?)
9066. Edward (of Buildwas) GREY ()
10755. Anne LUDLOW (1482? - ?)
10816. William (Sir; of The Fenns) HANMER (1569? - 1620)
10818. Thomas (of Emral \& Lightwood) PULESTON ()
11034. John Owen (Sir) VAUGHAN (? - 1599)
12802. [same as 2688] John (of Kedleston) CURZON (? - 1632?)
16396. George (of Hodnet) VERNON (? - 1553?)
18132. Edward (4th \& last Lord POWIS) GREY (1503 - 1551)
21511. Elizabeth GREY (1462? - ?)
21632. poss. William HANMER (? - 1589?)
21636. Roger Vychan PULESTON (? - 1571?)
22068. Owen VAUGHAN ()
32793. Alice LUDLOW (1483 - ?)
36264. John (3rd Lord) GREY (? - 1504)
43022. Richard GREY (1436 - 7/12/1466)
43265. Eleanor HANMER ()
43273. Ermine HANMER ()
44137. Elizabeth GREY ()
65587. [same as 21511] Elizabeth GREY (1462? - ?)
72528. John (2nd Lord) GREY (? - 1494)
86045. Antigone (Bastard) of GLOUCESTER (by 1428 - ?)
86530. Thomas HANMER (? - 1545)
86547. Margaret KYNASTON ()
88274. John GREY ()
145056. [same as 43022] Richard GREY (1436 - 7/12/1466)
172090. Humphrey (K.G.) of LANCASTER (1390 - 1447)
173061. [same as 86547] Margaret KYNASTON ()
173095. Elizabeth (Lady) GREY (1440? - 1501+)
176548. Humphrey GREY ()
344180. Henry IV PLANTAGENET (King) of ENGLAND (1366 - 20/3/1413)
346191. [same as 86045] Antigone (Bastard) of GLOUCESTER (by 1428 - ?)
353097. [same as 86045] Antigone (Bastard) of GLOUCESTER (by 1428 - ?)

[John Higgins]

On Aug 3, 9:26 am, James Dow Allen <gm...@fabulous.pedigree.nospam>
wrote:
> John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> might have writ, innews:c12116ee-e746-4308...@h8g2000pbt.googlegroups.com:

Here is the 5th line from Henry IV to Elizabeth II (and thus to prince
Charles):
5. Margaret Kynaston (sister of Emma, #5 above), m. Richard Hanmer
6. Sir Thomas Hanmer, m. Joan Brereton of Malpas
7. Ermine Hanmer, m. William Lloyd of Halton [or Halghton]
8. William Lloyd of Halghton, m. Jan Broughton
9. Margaret Lloyd, m. (1 of 3) John Jeffreys
10. Margaret Jeffreys, m. Sir John Trevor (# 10 above)

Margaret Jeffreys is shown in Paget's ancestry of Prince Charles (and
in your database as well as Leo's) as being one generation later in
the Jeffreys family, daughter of the Sir John who married Margaret
Ireland. Gary Boyd Roberts pointed out in in a review of Paget's work
in vol. 2 of TG that this is incorrect. This correction is confirmed
by a listing of the children of Sir John Jeffreys and Margaret Ireland
in Archaeologia Cambrensis, 3rd ser., 15:114-5, which indicates that
their daughter Margaret married someone else.

I see now that I mis-typed when I said there are 21 lines from Henry
IV to Diana Spencer. The count of 21 actually applies to her sons,
who have 5 lines from Charles and 16 from Diana. I'll work separately
on the Diana lines to see if I can close the gap between our counts.

[John Higgins]

On Aug 3, 9:26 am, James Dow Allen <gm...@fabulous.pedigree.nospam>
wrote:

> John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> might have writ, innews:c12116ee-e746-4308...@h8g2000pbt.googlegroups.com:

>
>
>
> > FWIW Prince Charles has only these 5 Henry IV descents from his
> > grandmother the QM, but Princess Diana has (at least) 21 descents from
> > Henry IV.
>
> My software will show all paths, compacted into either a Descendancy chart,
> or into an Ancestor list.  I'll present 4 descents from Henry IV to Charles
> in the first format; 11 ascents from Diana to Henry IV in the second format.
>
> Unfortunately I'm at the mercy of errors and omissions in my database.
> I seem to be missing 1 descent for Charles and 10 for Diana.
> (My database has the "feature" that it includes incorrect lines!
> If Charles Lennox 4th Duke is son of 3rd Duke and wife Mary Bruce,
> I get another line from Diana but am still a long ways from 21.)
>
> James
>
> ============

> =============
>
> 11 paths [to Diana]

I'm working on the Henry IV descents to Diana Spencer and have found 6
lines that are not included in the ancestor list above. I'll
separately post on these.

OTOH I cannot confirm one of the lines listed above, specifically the
one involving #5517, Sidney Vaughan, whose supposed ancestry is shown
in your database here:
http://fabpedigree.com/s093/f756780.htm

According to standard compilations of Welsh pedigrees (including, for
example, Lloyd's Sheriffs of Montgomeryshire), the John Vaughan here
identified as father of Sidney (and having the parents indicated) was
of Llwydiarth and did not have a daughter named Sidney, and his wife
was not Dorothy Herbert but rather Dorothy ferch Hywel Fychan ap
Dafydd Llwyd of Glanllyn. In addition, I cannot place Dorothy
Herbert, even if she were the mother of Sidney Vaughan, as a child of
Richard Herbert and Magdalen Newport.

My information on Sidney Vaughan says she was daughter of Sir John
Vaughan, Governor of Londonderry, who was knighted in 1617 and d. in
1643. This Sir John was son of another Sir John who was knighted
1599. I have no information on either of their wives not further
ancestry for this particular Vaughan family. Do you have sources for
the ancestry you show in your database?

[John Higgins]

On Aug 3, 9:26 am, James Dow Allen <gm...@fabulous.pedigree.nospam>
wrote:

> John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> might have writ, innews:c12116ee-e746-4308...@h8g2000pbt.googlegroups.com:

>
>
>
> > FWIW Prince Charles has only these 5 Henry IV descents from his
> > grandmother the QM, but Princess Diana has (at least) 21 descents from
> > Henry IV.
>
> My software will show all paths, compacted into either a Descendancy chart,
> or into an Ancestor list.  I'll present 4 descents from Henry IV to Charles
> in the first format; 11 ascents from Diana to Henry IV in the second format.
>
> Unfortunately I'm at the mercy of errors and omissions in my database.
> I seem to be missing 1 descent for Charles and 10 for Diana.
> (My database has the "feature" that it includes incorrect lines!
> If Charles Lennox 4th Duke is son of 3rd Duke and wife Mary Bruce,
> I get another line from Diana but am still a long ways from 21.)
>
> James
>

Charles Lennox, 4th Duke of Lennox [and Richmond] was not the son of
the 3rd Duke (who d. without legitimate issue) but instead the son of
his younger brother George Henry Lennox. so, no line to Henry IV
here....

[James Dow Allen]

On Aug 4, 11:23 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> My information on Sidney Vaughan says she was daughter of Sir John
> Vaughan, Governor of Londonderry, who was knighted in 1617 and d. in

> 1643.  ... Do you have sources for

> the ancestry you show in your database?

The source is Kirk Lawson's database which cites a LDS CD-Rom.
He shows siblings for Sidney including Elizabeth, wife of
David Lloyd, ancestor of American immigrants.

I accumulated a lot of bad data before realizing the unreliability
of Internet genealogies. I'm gradually pruning some of the
bad data with the help of people like you, John. Thanks!

I'll mark this doubtful pedigree with "Not!"

On Aug 4, 11:33 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > (My database has the "feature" that it includes incorrect lines!
> > If Charles Lennox 4th Duke is son of 3rd Duke and wife Mary Bruce,
> > I get another line from Diana but am still a long ways from 21.)
>

> Charles Lennox, 4th Duke of Lennox [and Richmond] was not the son of
> the 3rd Duke (who d. without legitimate issue) but instead the son of
> his younger brother George Henry Lennox. so, no line to Henry IV
> here....

As implied, this fallacious link was already marked "Not!"
in my database. I like to think of this as a "feature",
showing incorrect pedigrees as well as correct ones! :-)

James

[Olivier]

Roglo database give 3 links
http://roglo.eu/roglo?lang=en;m=RL;i=3114086;i1=1725434;i2=3114086;l1=19,20;l2=0;dag=on

[Wjhonson]

These LDS's databases on CDRoms are generally just the PRF or the patron submissions to the IGI. Both sources are almost utterly worthless. But we'll be finding the garbage for the next three centuries.

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[Matt A]

As cited by Dean, an item in the Vernon Papers explains that the Vernon/Grey connection is probably some sort of forgery:

"SP/46/175: The Vernon Papers: In 1551 Edward Grey, fourth Baron Grey of Powis died. In 1584 Henry Vernon of Stokesay, co. Salop, claimed the barony in right of his descent through Elizabeth, daughter of Richard, first Baron Grey of Powis. A rival claimant, Edward Kynaston, challenged Vernon's evidences (some of which are in SP46/59 Part I) and they were condemned in the Court of Wards in 1585, it being found that Elizabeth was the step-daughter and not the daughter of Richard Grey. (Looking through Vernon papers after 1585, it seems like Henry Vernon continued to style himself Lord Powis.)"

This reduces the number of lines significantly.

-Matt Ahlgren

[John Higgins]

On Aug 4, 9:30 am, Matt A <starwarsge...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, August 4, 2012 10:02:47 AM UTC-4, Olivier wrote:
> > Le vendredi 27 juillet 2012 11:07:15 UTC+2, Leo a écrit :
>
> > > Dean mentioned:
>
> > > I have been looking at discussions regarding various lines of descent for Elizabeth II from English Kings and noticed that a descent from Henry IV was one of many mentioned.
>
> > > --------
>
> > > In my data base I have at least four different lines from Queen Elizabeth II to Henry IV.
>
> > > Leo van de Pas
>
> > > Canberra, Australia
>
> > Roglo database give 3 links
>

> >http://roglo.eu/roglo?lang=en;m=RL;i=3114086;i1=1725434;i2=3114086;l1...

>
> As cited by Dean, an item in the Vernon Papers explains that the Vernon/Grey connection is probably some sort of forgery:
>
> "SP/46/175: The Vernon Papers: In 1551 Edward Grey, fourth Baron Grey of Powis died. In 1584 Henry Vernon of Stokesay, co. Salop, claimed the barony in right of his descent through Elizabeth, daughter of Richard, first Baron Grey of Powis. A rival claimant, Edward Kynaston, challenged Vernon's evidences (some of which are in SP46/59 Part I) and they were condemned in the Court of Wards in 1585, it being found that Elizabeth was the step-daughter and not the daughter of Richard Grey. (Looking through Vernon papers after 1585, it seems like Henry Vernon continued to style himself Lord Powis.)"
>
> This reduces the number of lines significantly.
>
> -Matt Ahlgren

There is a good discussion of the conflicting claims of the Vernon and
Kynaston families to the supposed barony of Grey of Powis in appendix
C of vol. 6 of CP. Apparently the matter of the paternity of
Elizabeth, supposed daughter of Richard Grey, was not fully settled by
the action of 1585 mentioned above. In fact CP mentions that "it is a
curious fact that .... the paternity of Elizabeth was not determined
even by the time that the last claim [for the peerage] was made in
1800".

[David Topping]

The full paragraph in Appendix C (Claims to the Baronies of Grey (of Powis) and Cherleton), P 697 of “The Complete Peerage” Vol 6:

“The claims of the Vernons and their descendants both as to the estates and peerage were founded on their descent from Elizabeth, daughter of Margaret Tuchet, which Elizabeth they alleged to be daughter of the said Margaret by her 2nd husband, Richard Grey. If, as their opponents declared, Elizabeth was the daughter, not of Sir Richard Grey, but Sir Roger Vaughan, Margaret Tuchet’s first husband, the Vernon claims fell to the ground. It is a curious fact that although everything hinged on this point …., the paternity of Elizabeth was not determined even by the time that the last claim was made in 1800.”

As so frequently happens, information and misinformation mingle throughout the various stages of the claims made to this barony (1554, 1584, 1731, 1800) and continue into later interpretations of what appear to be facts, but which are often unsubstantiated opinions. This case has supplied a mass of genealogical information which has too often been accepted without question. The paragraph above, for example, repeats a fundamental error which can still be found in numerous sources, namely the order of Margaret Tuchet’s marriages. Witnesses in Chancery in 1554, two of whom were supposedly over 100 years old, claimed that both Margaret Tuchet’s daughters were by her ‘first’ husband, Roger Vaughan. We now know (as has been pointed out by other members of the group) that Richard Grey died in 1466, whilst Roger Vaughan was executed in 1471 and that the established order must be reversed. It is interesting that the National Library of Wales Welsh Biography Online gives the corrected order under the entry for the Vaughan family of Tretower (http://yba.llgc.org.uk/en/s-VAUG-TRE-1450.html), where it is specifically stated that Margaret Tuchet was Lady Powis before her marriage to Roger Vaughan, but the wrong order is still given under the Grey of Powis entry (http://yba.llgc.org.uk/en/s-POWY-GRE-1400.html). This would at least suggest that the witnesses produced during the court proceedings were not quite as clear in their recollections as was suggested. Indeed, Margaret Tuchet’s second daughter, the future wife of Humphrey Ludlow, is the only recorded child of her second marriage.

There is more evidence that Elizabeth was the daughter of Richard Grey in Welsh sources. Gutun Owain, or Gruffudd ap Huw ab Owain (fl. c. 1450 – 1503) was a poet, copyist and genealogist from the parish of Dudleston in the lordship of Oswestry (now in Shropshire). He was responsible for a large number of works, including the earliest surviving copy of Llyfr Arfau (a heraldic treatise) and a collection of genealogies. He was one of the bards called upon to join the commission appointed by Henry VII to establish his Welsh pedigree and is still considered to be amongst the more reliable sources today.

Amongst his recorded pedigrees, later transcribed by Huw LLyn (fl. c. 1552 – 1594) is a record (folio 170a supra, British Museum) of the family of Richard Grey, lord Powis:

“a Ric’ a beiriodes Margred verch Arglwydd Awdle, ac vddynt i bu vab a merch, John ac Elsabeth”.

This is a contemporary record made years before the controversy which was later to surround the existence of Elizabeth, who Gutun clearly identifies as Elizabeth Grey, not Vaughan.

The date of this entry can only be estimated. John was born in 1461/62 and was married soon after 14 Feb 1470/71. It would appear that Gutun wrote this whilst the father was still alive (he died 17 Dec 1466) and before the son married.

The same information is given in ‘Rhandiroedd Powys’, a tract describing the division of Powys amongst the descendants of Bleddyn ap Cynfyn. The two earliest versions, dated to c1493 and 1495 are probably both the work of Gutun Owain. The last descendants given in the tract for Powys Wenwynwyn are John and Elizabeth (my italics) the children of Sir Richard Gray (sic) who according to Bartrum, who edited the text, were born around 1460:

“Jan y verch hynaf i Edward o Jarltwn a briodes Syr John Gray, ac vddvnt y bv vab a elwid Hari iarll Tangkrvil, ac arglwydd Powys. Yr Hari hwnn a briodes Ant[i]goni merch o ordderch i Wmffray, dvc o Klowsedr, acc vddvnt y bv ddav vab a merch, nid amgen, Richiart arglwydd Powys, ac Wmffray I vrawd, ac Elsabeth yr honn a briodes Syr Roecher o Kinaston. Richiart a briodes Margred merch arglwydd Awdle, ac vddvnt y bv vab a merch, John ac Elsabeth”.

Llyfr Baglan, or the Book of Baglan was compiled between the years 1600 and 1607 by John Williams. The information it contains was taken from several sources, many quite ancient. It is not always accurate in places, but does contain information which did not appear in the visitations.

Llyfr Baglan, in the edition by Joseph Bradney (1910) contains the following:

“Richard Graye, lord Powis, married margaret, the da. of James, lord Audley, and bye her had issue John and Elizabeth the wief of John Ludlow, who had issue two da., Anne an Alice. The said Anne ma. Tho. Vernon, seconde son of Sr henrye Vernon, knight, of haddon in the peke, of whom henrye Vernon of Stocksaye now lyving is descended.”

The above would strongly suggest that Elizabeth was definitely the daughter of Richard Grey and also that her subsequent marriage was an accepted fact in Welsh annals.

This alone would probably raise questions about the Kynastons’ version of events, but there is more. In the later submissions it was argued that the Vernons had enjoyed parts of the Powis estates. The Kynastons rejected this. The Vernons’ inheritance of the manor of Andover, for example, was rejected because of the nature of the inheritance. They were wrong. We know, which they apparently did not, that in fact, Henry Vernon’s father predeceased his grandfather making the type of inheritance possible (see HOP online). This is very clearly assumed in the account of this manor in Victoria County History: A History of the County of Hampshire: Volume 4 William Page (editor) 1911 Pages 345-358:

“This leaves only the parts held by the two daughters of Lord Cherleton and the elder Eleanor de Holand. That held by John Grey Earl of Tankerville and his wife Joan was carried by Anne Ludlow, their greatgreat-granddaughter, to Thomas Vernon of Stokesay. Henry Vernon, grandson of this match, died in 1606 seised of £12 10s rent issuing from Andover, which passed to his cousin and heir, John Curzon of Kedleston, son and heir of Francis Curzon and Eleanor Vernon daughter of Thomas Vernon and Anne Ludlow. This John Curzon was the ancestor of the present Lord Scarsdale, who still receives the rent.”

There is other evidence that the Vernons’ claim was taken seriously by the illegitimate son of the last Lord Powis. An account of the Ruckley Estate, for example, shows that half of it was designated to Henry Vernon, which was not questioned until 1657 (Some Account of the Ruckley Grange Estate, Salop,and the Families Connected Therewith, H. F. J. Vaughan in Transactions of the Shropshire Archaeological and Natural History Society Vol. 2 1879). The family had been consulted in the sale of Cherleton Hall before it could be sold in 1600 (same source). Henry Vernon held the manor court at Pontesbury over several years (various National Archive documents). There are other examples.

In other words, if we put aside the arguments of the participants in the early Chancery hearings as unreliable and of little forensic value (which the National Archives summary does not), and approach this through the available documents as a genealogist/historian would normally do, we get a different picture to that painted in some secondary sources. We also, I believe, get a valid descent from Henry IV.

So why was the College of Heralds so dismissive when Henry Vernon first made his claim? The visitation pedigrees for the Ludlows are a mess, and I have seen them quoted in at least one legal treatise as a good example of the unreliability of the heralds, not of the informants. I don’t doubt that Henry Vernon’s agents tried to ‘correct’ them, but there is more to it than that. Pages 170/1 of “A History of the College of Arms” (Rev. Mark Noble, London 1804 – available on Google) – gives an intriguing possible explanation!

[Wjhonson]

They repeat there the claim (nonsense) that Richard died ON 17 Dec 1466

-----Original Message-----
From: David Topping <davi...@gmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Aug 4, 2012 11:55 am
Subject: Re: Elizabeth II to Henry IV

[John Higgins]

On Aug 4, 12:10 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> They repeat there the claim (nonsense) that Richard died ON 17 Dec 1466
>

I assume this refers to Richard Grey, 1st Lord Grey of Powis. What is
the basis (and your source) for the statement that "the
claim" (whoever "they" is) that he died "on" 17 Dec 1466 is
"nonsense"?

[Wjhonson]

The basis as with all negative assertions is that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, that we know *on what day* he died. No evidence.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Higgins <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Aug 4, 2012 5:40 pm
Subject: Re: Elizabeth II to Henry IV

[John Higgins]

On Aug 4, 5:56 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> The basis as with all negative assertions is that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, that we know *on what day* he died.  No evidence.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com>
> To: gen-medieval <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Sat, Aug 4, 2012 5:40 pm
> Subject: Re: Elizabeth II to Henry IV
>
> On Aug 4, 12:10 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> > They repeat there the claim (nonsense) that Richard died ON 17 Dec 1466
>
> I assume this refers to Richard Grey, 1st Lord Grey of Powis.  What is
> the basis (and your source) for the statement that "the
> claim" (whoever "they" is) that he died "on" 17 Dec 1466 is
> "nonsense"?
>

See CP 6:140 and the source that it cites in note f for the death date
of Richard Grey.

[Wjhonson]

No dice John.
That gives a terminus date. Not THE date.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Higgins <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Aug 4, 2012 8:05 pm
Subject: Re: Elizabeth II to Henry IV


On Aug 4, 5:56 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> The basis as with all negative assertions is that there is absolutely no
evidence whatsoever, that we know *on what day* he died. No evidence.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com>
> To: gen-medieval <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Sat, Aug 4, 2012 5:40 pm
> Subject: Re: Elizabeth II to Henry IV
>
> On Aug 4, 12:10 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> > They repeat there the claim (nonsense) that Richard died ON 17 Dec 1466
>
> I assume this refers to Richard Grey, 1st Lord Grey of Powis. What is
> the basis (and your source) for the statement that "the
> claim" (whoever "they" is) that he died "on" 17 Dec 1466 is
> "nonsense"?
>


See CP 6:140 and the source that it cites in note f for the death date
of Richard Grey.

[John Higgins]

On Aug 4, 8:32 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> No dice John.
> That gives a terminus date.  Not THE date.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com>
> To: gen-medieval <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Sat, Aug 4, 2012 8:05 pm
> Subject: Re: Elizabeth II to Henry IV
>
> On Aug 4, 5:56 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> > The basis as with all negative assertions is that there is absolutely no
> evidence whatsoever, that we know *on what day* he died.  No evidence.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com>
> > To: gen-medieval <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Sat, Aug 4, 2012 5:40 pm
> > Subject: Re: Elizabeth II to Henry IV
>
> > On Aug 4, 12:10 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > They repeat there the claim (nonsense) that Richard died ON 17 Dec 1466
>
> > I assume this refers to Richard Grey, 1st Lord Grey of Powis.  What is
> > the basis (and your source) for the statement that "the
> > claim" (whoever "they" is) that he died "on" 17 Dec 1466 is
> > "nonsense"?
>
> See CP 6:140 and the source that it cites in note f for the death date
> of Richard Grey.
>
>

No, you're wrong - read the Latin.

[Matthew Connolly]

On Saturday, August 4, 2012 9:53:07 PM UTC+3, David Topping wrote:
>
>[snipped]

>
> So why was the College of Heralds so dismissive when Henry Vernon first made his claim? The visitation pedigrees for the Ludlows are a mess, and I have seen them quoted in at least one legal treatise as a good example of the unreliability of the heralds, not of the informants. I don’t doubt that Henry Vernon’s agents tried to ‘correct’ them, but there is more to it than that. Pages 170/1 of “A History of the College of Arms” (Rev. Mark Noble, London 1804 – available on Google) – gives an intriguing possible explanation!

Excellent post, David - all I can add is the following elaboration of your last observation.

Henry Vernon's pedigree and arms were recorded by Robert Glover, Somerset Herald, in a volume that is now Harl. 807 in the British Library, at folios 60-61. Folio 61 contains the marriage of John Ludlow and Elizabeth, daughter of Richard Grey, Baron Powys, which Elizabeth and her parentage have afterwards been crossed out in a different ink. There is also the following inscription:

[quote] This Descent of Vernon and Ludlowe was sett Downe by Glouer Som'set who was a man of good Judgment and Consience
"This Elizabeth Gray was crossed out by Clarencieux Lee: at the Request of Mr Tho: Powell: [which (crossed out)] Clar'. had for the same so doinge and for the settinge upe of ye Hatchment of Sr Edw: Herbert at Welshe poole xx:£ in gould:
"The said Clarencieulx hath blotted owte the mariage of Verno' w+ Ludlowe in the white booke of Petigres of Clar' Cookes wryting wch I lyke not of
J. Brooke yorke Herauld /1598/ [end quote]

-Matthew

[John Higgins]

The 6 additional lines of descent from Henry IV to Diana Spencer are
shown below. This is a quick and bare-bones transcription of basic
information from my data files - hopefully I haven't introduced any
errors. The numbers in brackets refer to people in the ancestor list
posted above.

The first two lines in this group may be of particular interest,
because the lines run from Henry IV through Lucy Walter, one of the
mistresses of Charles II (although not via Charles II, who was not
himself descended from Henry IV).

Elizabeth Grey [#173095], m. Sir Roger Kynaston
Mary Kynaston, (unm.) Sir Rhys ap Thomas (d. 1525)
Margred "Ieuaf" ferch Sir Rhys ap Thomas, m. Harry Wiriot of Orielton
Katherine Wiriot, m. Owain Lacharn of St. Bride's
Francis Laugharne [or Lacharn] of St. Bride's, m. Jonet Philipps of
Picton
Jane Laugharne [or Lacharn], m. William Walter of Haverfordwest
Rowland Walter of Haverfordwest, m. m. Frances [ferch Gruffydd ap
Thomas ap Rhys] Griffith
William Walter of Haverfordwest, m. Elizabeth Protheroe
Lucy Walter [mistress of Charles II; paternity of dau. Mary is
uncertain]
Mary Crofts, m. William Sarsfield [br. of Patrick, 1st E. of Lucan]
Charlotte Sarsfield, m. Agmondesham Vesey
Anne Vesey, m. Sir John Bingham, 5th Baronet
Sir Charles Bingham, 1st Earl of Lucan, m. Margaret Smith of Cannons
Leigh
Lavinia Bingham, m. George John, 2nd Earl Spencer [#32]


Sir Charles Bingham, 1st Earl of Lucan [see above]
Richard Bingham, 2nd Earl of Lucan, m. Elizabeth Belasyse [see below]
George Charles Bingham, 3rd Earl of Lucan, m. Anne Brudenell [#45]


Margaret Kynaston [#86547], m. Richard Hanmer
David Hanmer of Evenall
Richard Hanmer of Evenall, m. Anne Beaulin
Edward Hanmer of Evenall, m. (2) Jane Corbet of Stanwardine
Mary Hanmer, m. Richard Pope of Woolstaston
Mary Pope, m. Thomas Coke of Melbourne
John Coke of Melbourne, m. Mary Leventhorpe
Thomas Coke of Melbourne, m. (2) Mary Hale
Charlotte Coke, m. Sir Matthew Lamb, 1st Baronet
Charlotte Lamb, m. Henry Belasyse, 2nd [and last] Earl Fauconberg
Elizabeth Belasyse, m. Richard Bingham, 2nd Earl of Lucan [see above]


Margaret Kynaston [#86547], m. Richard Hanmer
Dorothy Hanmer, m. Edward Brereton of Borasham
Elizabeth Brereton, m. James Eyton of Eyton
Cynwrig [or Kendrick] Eyton of Eyton, m. Elizabeth Brooke
Christian Eyton, m. Philip Jennings of Duddleston
Edward Jennings of Duddleston, m. Elizabeth Horne
Anne Jennings, m. Sir George Cooke of Harefield
George Cooke, m. Catherine Twysden
George John Cooke, m. Penelope Bowyer [#183]


Elizabeth Grey [#44137], m. John ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ap Gruffudd
of Caer Gai
Owain [ap John ap Hywel Fychan] Vaughan of Llwydiarth, m. Margred
ferch Owain ap Gruffudd ap Meredydd Fychan of Gorddwr
John ab Owen Vaughan of Llwydiarth, m. Dorothy ferch Hywel Fychan ap
Dafydd Llwyd of Glanllyn
Owen ap John ab Owen Vaughan, m. Catherine/Catrin ferch Morus ap
Robert ap Morus of Llangedwyn
Sir Robert Vaughan of Llwydiarth, m. Katharine Herbert
Eleanor Vaughan of Llwydiarth, m. John Purcell of Nantcribba
Katherine Purcell, m. Sir Godfrey Copley, 2nd Baronet
Catherine Copley, m. Joseph Moyle
Sir Joseph [Moyle, later] Copley, 1st Baronet, m. Mary Buller
Catherine Copley, m. John James Hamilton, 9th Earl and 1st Marquess of
Abercorn
James Hamilton, Viscount Hamilton, m. Harriet Douglas
James Hamilton, 2nd Marquess and 1st Duke of Abercorn. m. Louisa Jane
Russell [#41]


Anne [or Amy] Ludlow [#10755], m. Thomas Vernon of Stokesay
Thomas Vernon [junior] of Stokesay, m. Dorothy Lovell
Dorothy Vernon, m. Humphrey Ludlow of Stokesay
Elizabeth Ludlow, m. Humphrey Hill [or Hull] of Court of Hill
Mary [or Dorothy] Hill, m. Richard Chambers of Petton
George Chambers [or Chambré] of Petton, m. Judith Calcott
Calcott Chambré, m. Mary Villiers
Mary Chambré, m. Edward Brabazon, 2nd Earl of Meath
Jane Brabazon, m. Randall Moore of Ardee
Mary Moore, m. William Ponsonby, 1st Viscount Duncannon
Brabazon Ponsonby, 1st Earl of Bessborough, m. Sarah Margetson
John Ponsonby, m. Elizabeth Cavendish [#317]

[David Topping]

Thanks Matthew


My interest in this line comes from my ancestor, George Barker of Coulshurst and his wife Ann, who I believe to be a granddaughter of the Thomas Vernon of Stokesay who married Anne, the daughter of John Ludlow and Elizabeth Grey (daughter of Richard Grey and Margaret Touchet/Audley). I posted on this a while back. You can find it here: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/Topping/soc.genealogy.medieval/2yOAhazbROs/bWGYrH4Y5ikJ
Since making this post, I have found no further direct evidence to strengthen my theory, but also nothing to contradict it. I still believe it to be true, especially as some of the intervening generations seem to have been aware of the link:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tSsPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=%22mayne+of+elmdon%22+%22edward+III%22&source=bl&ots=DuALhlqL_R&sig=ws8GRLk_KaNjkO7ckgRFvtkxnNQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dSIhUM_2Gum70QWv7oGgBA&ved=0CFkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22mayne%20of%20elmdon%22%20%22edward%20III%22&f=false
This then opens up descents from Henry IV to the Barkers of Coulshurst, the Griffiths of Bloxham and the Maynes of Elmdon (and on to the descendants of Thomas Willing of Bristol and Anne Harrison, such as the Willings of Philadelphia).

My general point that this whole topic of the Vernon / Kynaston disputes over the Barony of Powis has been only summarily treated in the past is important. The more you go into the direct evidence available, the more emerges. Henry Vernon’s heir was not his aunt, Eleanor Curzon, for example. His sister Dorothy had issue as has been mentioned here. In fact, in his will (PROB 11/110), given verbally, he left everything to a Peter Brambile, gentleman, “and saide that if they were a kingdome they were to little for him, or used words tending to the like effect…..”. Francis Curzon then intervened and got it all back, although I imagine that there were more debts than chattels!

Richard Grey’s brother, Humphrey, did not die dsp as often reported, but probably married a sister of Margaret Tuchet and had a son, John, who had issue (see Bartrum). As well as a sister Elizabeth, wife of Roger Kynaston, Bartrum identifies a sister called Jonet who married Ieuan ap John and had issue.

And on it goes. This whole question has fascinated me for the last two years and I am afraid that I have collected far more resources on the matter than I have the time to arrange and post, but if anyone is interested in a particular aspect of this question, I may well be able to forward them copies of something to help if I’m sent an email address.

David

[Matthew Connolly]

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 6:04:00 PM UTC+3, David Topping wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Matthew
>
>
>
>
>
> My interest in this line comes from my ancestor, George Barker of Coulshurst and his wife Ann, who I believe to be a granddaughter of the Thomas Vernon of Stokesay who married Anne, the daughter of John Ludlow and Elizabeth Grey (daughter of Richard Grey and Margaret Touchet/Audley). I posted on this a while back. You can find it here: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/Topping/soc.genealogy.medieval/2yOAhazbROs/bWGYrH4Y5ikJ
>
> Since making this post, I have found no further direct evidence to strengthen my theory, but also nothing to contradict it. I still believe it to be true, especially as some of the intervening generations seem to have been aware of the link:
>
> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tSsPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=%22mayne+of+elmdon%22+%22edward+III%22&source=bl&ots=DuALhlqL_R&sig=ws8GRLk_KaNjkO7ckgRFvtkxnNQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dSIhUM_2Gum70QWv7oGgBA&ved=0CFkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22mayne%20of%20elmdon%22%20%22edward%20III%22&f=false
>
> This then opens up descents from Henry IV to the Barkers of Coulshurst, the Griffiths of Bloxham and the Maynes of Elmdon (and on to the descendants of Thomas Willing of Bristol and Anne Harrison, such as the Willings of Philadelphia).
>
>
>
> My general point that this whole topic of the Vernon / Kynaston disputes over the Barony of Powis has been only summarily treated in the past is important. The more you go into the direct evidence available, the more emerges. Henry Vernon’s heir was not his aunt, Eleanor Curzon, for example. His sister Dorothy had issue as has been mentioned here. In fact, in his will (PROB 11/110), given verbally, he left everything to a Peter Brambile, gentleman, “and saide that if they were a kingdome they were to little for him, or used words tending to the like effect…..”. Francis Curzon then intervened and got it all back, although I imagine that there were more debts than chattels!
>
>
>
> Richard Grey’s brother, Humphrey, did not die dsp as often reported, but probably married a sister of Margaret Tuchet and had a son, John, who had issue (see Bartrum). As well as a sister Elizabeth, wife of Roger Kynaston, Bartrum identifies a sister called Jonet who married Ieuan ap John and had issue.
>
>
>
> And on it goes. This whole question has fascinated me for the last two years and I am afraid that I have collected far more resources on the matter than I have the time to arrange and post, but if anyone is interested in a particular aspect of this question, I may well be able to forward them copies of something to help if I’m sent an email address.
>
>
>
> David

I missed that post originally, fascinating stuff and definitely something there, I hope you will find the proof you need. I haven't researched Thomas Vernon I of Stokesay at all, but descend from three of his brothers so have quite a lot of Vernon material. I don't think there's anything of use to this question, and unfortunately there's no mention of Elizabeth that I can see. But in case it's of interest and you haven't already seen it, here's the Stokesay line as it appears in Harl. 807, folio 61:

1. Thoms Vernon de Stokeshay 2. filius=Anna filia et haeres Johis Ludlow militis
2a. Henricus Vernon
2b. Thoms Vernon=Dorothea filia fraunis Lovel milit.
3. Henricus Vernon armiger precipuus masculus huius familia
2c. Alienore uxor Francisci Curson de kedleston in Com. Derb. armig.

And from Add. MS 34668, folio 167, pedigree of Grey and Vernon:

"This was in the same book with Henry Vernons claim"

[I'll start from Richard Grey]
1. Sr Richard Gray Lord Powes =
2. Elizabeth was married to Sir John Ludlow kt:
3. Ann the Elder Dau: was married to Thomas Vernon of Stokesay Esqr
4. Thi. Vernon Esqr of Stokesay =
5. Henry Vernon of Stokesay Esqr. Cosen & Next Heir to Ed. Ld. Powys

-Matthew

[Wjhonson]

David perhaps you can expand on some of this descent.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Topping <davi...@gmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>

Sent: Tue, Aug 7, 2012 8:06 am
Subject: Re: Elizabeth II to Henry IV

[David Topping]

The descent which I’m hypothesising runs as follows:
Richard Grey, Lord Powis (1436 – 1466) great grandson of Henry IV
= (by 12 Jan 1458/9) Margaret Touchet/Audley (d.bef. Feb. 1481) daughter of James Touchet, Lord Audley by Eleanor Holland (Edward III descent)

Elizabeth Grey (c. 1462/3 - ?)
= John Ludlow (d.c.1495) son of Sir Richard Ludlow of Stokesay and Hodnet

Anne Ludlow (c.1482 - ?)
= (1497) Thomas Vernon I of Stokesay (d. 1561/2) son of Sir Henry Vernon of Haddon by Anne Talbot, daughter of John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury

ELIZABETH VERNON (d. 1582/3) [SEE NOTE 1.]
= John Steventon of Rowton (d.1580)

Ann Steventon (? – 1588)
= George Barker of Coulshurst (c.1550 – 1619) son of John Barker and Elizabeth Sandford (Edward I descent)

Margaret Barker (c. 1575 – aft.1665)
= Richard Griffith (c.1555 – 1636) son of Sir William Griffith, Rector of Llanfaethlu by Elizabeth ferch Gruffudd ap Robert (several Welsh Royal descents for both)

Dorothy Griffith (1615 - ?)
= (1637) John Mayne (1608 – 1677) son of John Mayne of Elmdon by Blanche Colles

Blanche Mayne (1641 – aft. 1703)
= Charles Harrison (c.1645 – 1688) son of Richard Harrison, Chancellor of Lichfield Cathedral

Anne Harrison (1684 – 1747)
= (1704) Thomas Willing of Bristol (1679/80 – 1760) son of Joseph Willing of Portbury by Ara Lowle

Dorothy Willing (1707 – 1790)
= (1738) George Hand (1696 – 1780) son of George Hand, Proctor of Lichfield Cathedral by Margaret Lowe

Charlotte Hand (1746 – 1841)
= (1776) Benjamin Bond (1745 – 1818) son of Revd. Benjamin Bond of Lichfield

NOTES:
1. This complete line depends on the identity of Elizabeth, the wife of John Steventon of Rowton. To summarise her will (Will of Elizabeth Stiventon (sic) Widow, Rowton Pycard, Shropshire
1583 PROB 11/65), she was the aunt of Henry Vernon, Esq. and Francis Vernon, grandchildren of Thomas Vernon of Stokesay by his son, Thomas II and his wife Dorothy Lovell. Dorothy Lovell had a sister, Elizabeth but her marriages are well documented, excluding her from being the Elizabeth in question. She was also a kinswoman of Edmund Newport of Sibden. Edmund Newport’s parents were Thomas Newport and Anna Corbet. Anna Corbet’s mother was Elizabeth Vernon, sister to Thomas Vernon I of Stokesay, the husband of Anne Ludlow. This would have made Edmund Newport first cousin once removed to Elizabeth Steventon thus establishing their kinship. The will names her son-in-law and each of her grandchildren. I HAVE THUS PLACED HER HERE IN THE ONLY POSITION WHICH SATISFIES ALL OF THESE CONDITIONS.
2. Some excellent earlier postings on the Steventon/Barker/Griffith/Mayne/Harrison/Willing sources can be found here:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2008-11/1226262699
3. The Willing/Hand/Bond links are all confirmed by various Willing and Hand wills and other sources.
4. A pedigree of Charles Willing, brother of Dorothy above, not updated for a while but from an impeccable source:
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=wjhonson&id=I28674&style=TEXT

[Brad Dubbs]

In regards to some of the above Kynaston names, according to the author the will of Humphrey Kynaston, mentions both Kynaston/Hanmer and Kynaston/Corbet of Legh marriages.

See below Bartrum pedigree for those and some of the other relations noted:

[ Elsbeth and Ysabella seem to be one and the same.]

http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5590/BLEDDYN%20AP%20CYNFYN%2038%28A3%29_131.png?sequence=4

Transactions of the Shropshire Archaeological and Natural History Society

By Shropshire Archaeological and Natural History Society, 2nd Series, volume 10,
p 273-80 covers pardon and will.


Will

Testament of Humfrey Kynaston.

In the name of God, Amen, on the first day of May in the year of our Lord one thousand live hundred and thirty four I Humfrey Kynaston Esquire being of sound mind and memory, but sick in body, do frame my testament after this manner First of all I bequeath my soul to God Almighty to the blessed Virgin Mary and all the Saints and my body to be buried in the high chancel of the church of Pool on the right side; Also I bequeath to the high altar of the aforesaid church four shillings for my tithes forgotten; I also bequeath for finding one fit chaplain to say mass for my soul and the souls of my parents eight marks; Also I bequeath for certain waxcandles and all other things necessary at my burying to the discretion of my executors ; Also I bequeath all my lands and tenements wherever they lie whether in England or in Wales to my son Edward Kynaston and his heirs with the exception of my lands and tenements lying in the demesne of Knokyn which I have enfeoffed by a certain enfeoffment to the use of Ysabella my wife and Roger Kynaston my younger son as appears in a certain deed made for that purpose; Also I will that all instruments and documents made by me concerning the aforesaid lands and tenements to my aforesaid sons shall stand firm, established and unmoveable for ever for the use and profit of the aforesaid (persons) according to the tenor of them; Also I will that John Corbet of Le my nephew do manage all my lands and tenements until and up to the time when all my debts be fully discharged by him : provided always that the said John Corbett provide all necessaries for Ysabella my wife and my said sons for their sustenance out of the revenues of all my lands and tenements as long as they remain in his hand for the payment of my debts: and afterward, that all my lands and tenements should remain as above for my said sons; Also I declare in my last will at the peril of my soul before the witnesses underwritten that I have not executed nor sealed any estate of any of my lands and tenements to my first wife by name Marian daughter of William ap Griffin ap Robyn esquire nor have I caused this to be done by any attorney and this (I declare) as I shall answer before God Almighty in the day of judgment: And the aforesaid William will be owing in the matter of dower thereupon thirty pounds sterling which I have not been paid Also I declare that Richard ap Rece of the town of Oswestry has made in general acquittance respecting all documents and bonds made by me and my bondsmen to the said Richard to Master Richard Kyffin John Kyffin clerks and to Ieuan Lloit gentleman concerning the death of master Thomas Kyffin rector of ffelton aber: Also I bequeath to John Trevor and Ysabella his wife forty marks sterling on condition that if the said John Trevor (and) Edward his father shall make an estate of certain of their lands in Maesbroc and (pay) eleven shillings and eightpence upon the co-partnership of Howel ap Dackyn concerning the mill called Melin Vaisbroc; Also I ordain and appoint as my executors John Corbett of Le esquire Edward Kynaston and Roger Kynaston junior my sons, that they have God before their eyes and dispose for the welfare of my soul as it shall seem best to them and most profitable for my soul; Also I appoint as my supervisors to see that this my testament and last will be carried out faithfully with due effect that is to say Sir Thomas Hanmer my nephew, Richard ap Meredith, John Tanad, John ap Richard Lloit and Robert Tanad. These witnesses being present Master John Kyffin clerk, John Kynaston clerk, Sir Richard ap David, chaplain of ffelton aber, Roger Kynaston, John Gruffin, Richard ap Dio Bache, John Wynne ap Geffrey, John ap David, Thomas ap Eignon, Thomas ap Henry and many others.

This present testament was proved according to valuation and approved in the parish church of St. Oswald of Oswestry on the I6th day of the month of January in the year of our Lord one thousand five hundred and thirty-four before Master Richard Kyffin, bachelor in decrees, Commissary principal of the archbishop of Canterbury as also of the Bishop of St. Asaph within the Marches and Powisland and by that testamen t then lawfully had declared and proclaimed, &c, &c.

In testimony whereof the seal of our office is to these presents affixed on the day and place underwritten before these witnesses Richard Walker, Sir Robert ap Meredith and Ralph Ireland.

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA282&lpg=PA278&dq=%22testament+of+Humfrey+Kynaston%22&id=rSEOAQAAMAAJ&ots=17JBRkYquC#v=onepage&q=%22testament%20of%20Humfrey%20Kynaston%22&f=false