A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
~Ford~
Leagues website,
http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=Tang%2BDynasty%2BQueen%2BE
lizabeth&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26amp%3BrequestI
d%3Deba97b29f17175f1%26amp%3BclickedItemRank%3D3%26amp%3BuserQuery%3DTang%25
2BDynasty%252BQueen%252BElizabeth%26amp%3BclickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%25
2Fwww.monarchist.ca%252Farchives%252Fethnic.htm%26amp%3BinvocationType%3D-%2
6amp%3BfromPage%3DNSCPResults&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.monarchist.ca%2Far
chives%2Fethnic.htm. The members were unable to give specifics; but did
indicate that it was HM's visit to Shanghai that brought out this
extraordinary claim. Again, there was no citaion of the article in the
newspaper(s), or other media. There was some feed back on the message
board; bit only suggestions that I try what I already had.
During the visit of HM Queen Elizabeth II to China in 1986, articles
published in the Chinese media traced Her Majesty's lineage to the Tang
Dynasty of China.
Can anyone here build a bridge to the 10th century on this? Turks maybe?
Or Mongols? Probably one or t'other. I reälize that nothing here is
certain, (or, in the parlance, 'for sure')l but hoping that some suggestions
might eventually lead to a more expository product.
Also, could anyone here produce, or does anyone here have a table for the
Khazars? How about Cumans, Petchenegs, Bihars, Polovtsy, etc.?
Chris Bennett
THe guess -- its through the Turks. AFAIK its the Eastern Turks who have
CHinese affiliations and the western Turks who can be traced further west
(though not to Europe to my knowledge) -- but an East-WEst connection
doesn't sound unlikely.
THe observation -- the T'ang were descended from an ephemeral Liang dynasty.
Maybe this is the starting point of the ancestry rather than the main T'ang
line.
It would certainbly be interesting to know the details of this claim.
CHris.
PS -- could you repost that URL as a TinyURL -- see http://tinyurl.com/
THanks!
""~Ford~"" <smomm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:002a01c3d65f$f9c9e060$0f0d0043@hppav...
norenxaq
>
> During the visit of HM Queen Elizabeth II to China in 1986, articles
> published in the Chinese media traced Her Majesty's lineage to the Tang
> Dynasty of China.
>
> Can anyone here build a bridge to the 10th century on this? Turks maybe?
> Or Mongols? Probably one or t'other. I reälize that nothing here is
> certain, (or, in the parlance, 'for sure')l but hoping that some suggestions
> might eventually lead to a more expository product.
> Also, could anyone here produce, or does anyone here have a table for the
> Khazars? How about Cumans, Petchenegs, Bihars, Polovtsy, etc.?
Hello:
following is what I came up with as a possibility:
Emperor Su Tsung (Tang)
Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)
Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan)
Sharwin I
Karim
Shahriyar I
Qarin
Abul Melik
Surkhab
Abul-Hamza
Michke m. Katchik-Gagik (Vaspurakin)
Abu sahl Hamazasp III
Derenik
Katchik I
Hasan
Abul Gharib
daughter m. Auschin I (Lampron)
Hetum II
Auschin II
Hetum III
Constantine I
Hetum IV
Alix m. Balian d'Ibelin
Guy d'Ibelin
Alix d'Ibelin m. Hugh de Lusignan
James I de Lusignan m. Charlotte Bourbon
Anne de Lusignan m. Louis (Savoy)
Margaret m. Peter (Luxemburg) 1390-1433
Louis
Peter
Marie m. Francis Bourbon
Antoinette m. Claude, Duke of Guise
Mary m. James V of Scotland
James VI
Elizabeth m. Frederick V of Bavaria
Sophia m. Ernst Augustus, Elector of Hanover
George I
George II
Frederick
George III
Edward
Victoria
Edward VII
George V
George VI
Elizabeth II
there might be other lines as well
Leo van de Pas
sources.
I would like to add a few details from Rüdt-Collenberg's "The Rupenides,
Hethumides and Lusignans"
See below.
----- Original Message -----
From: "norenxaq" <nore...@san.rr.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 5:05 AM
Subject: Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
> During the visit of HM Queen Elizabeth II to China in 1986, articles
> published in the Chinese media traced Her Majesty's lineage to the Tang
> Dynasty of China.
>
<snip>
Hello:
following is what I came up with as a possibility:
Emperor Su Tsung (Tang)
Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)
Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan)
Sharwin I
Karim
Shahriyar I
Qarin
Abul Melik
Surkhab
Abul-Hamza
Michke m. Katchik-Gagik (Vaspurakin)
Abu sahl Hamazasp III
Derenik
Katchik I
Hasan
Abul Gharib (Governor of Tarsus)
daughter m. Auschin I (Lampron) (also Oshin I, Lord of Lampron born circa
1040/1050, died 1110)
Hetum II (Lord of Lampron 1110-1143, died 1143, married NN)
Auschin II (Lord of Lampron 1143-1170, born circa 1125, died 1170, married
after 1143
Schahantukhd Savén Pahlavouni)
Hetum III (Lord of Lampron 1170-1200, born 1151, died 1218, became a monk,
married NN daughter of Thoros II, and secondly NN)
Constantine I (Lord of Lampron 1220-1249, born circa 1180, executed29 June
1250,
married Stephanie, daughter of Constantine of Barba'ron)
Hetum IV (Lord of Lampron, corn circa 1220, executed 29 June 1250)
Alix (died after 1312) m.(1279) Balian d'Ibelin (Senechal of Cyprus, died
February 1302)
From here on details are in ES
Leo van de Pas
See below
Jacques I m. Helvis of Brunswick
Leo van de Pas
to quite a lot of people. Not only Queen Elizabeth II is then a descendant,
but probably all todays European monarchs, a large number of European
aristocracy, especially French, but also individuals
like the Aga Khan, Lady Diana Spencer, Sarah Ferguson, Rachel Ward, Gianni
Agnelli, Winston Churchill, Brooke Shields, Valery Giscard d'Estaing and
amongst gen-med I could find only one, Peter de Loriol.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "norenxaq" <nore...@san.rr.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 5:05 AM
Subject: Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
>
>
norenxaq
Leo van de Pas wrote:
> I hope this line can be substantiated as it would give interesting ancestors
> to quite a lot of people. Not only Queen Elizabeth II is then a descendant,
> but probably all todays European monarchs, a large number of European
> aristocracy, especially French, but also individuals
> like the Aga Khan, Lady Diana Spencer, Sarah Ferguson, Rachel Ward, Gianni
> Agnelli, Winston Churchill, Brooke Shields, Valery Giscard d'Estaing and
> amongst gen-med I could find only one, Peter de Loriol.
>
> Best wishes
> Leo van de Pas
as well as related to them via marriage
norenxaq
Leo van de Pas wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "norenxaq" <nore...@san.rr.com>
> To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> If the line stands they are, more importantly, descendants, not just
> relations, of this Chinese Emperor. I think "Norenxaq" is on the tracks of
> something interesting as well as important.
thank-you
>
> I only wish the Chinese people who made this claim had provided us with a
> line on which they base their claim.
> Leo van de Pas
as do I...
Leo van de Pas
If the line stands they are, more importantly, descendants, not just
relations, of this Chinese Emperor. I think "Norenxaq" is on the tracks of
something interesting as well as important.
~Ford~
From: Leo van de Pas
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
Li Hu
Li Bing, m. Lady Tuku
Emperor T'ang Kao Tsu 618-626 (Li Yuan), m. Tu
Emperor T'ang T'ai Tsung 626-649 (Li Shih-min), m. Wen-te
Emperor T'ang Kao Tsung 649-683, m. Empress Wu 690-705, dt. Wu Shihou by
Lady Yang
Emperor T'ang Jui Tsung 684-690, 710-712, m. 2ndary Consort Tu
Emperor T'ang Hsuan Tsung 712-756, m. Yang Guifei
Emperor Su Tsung (T'ang) 756-762
Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)
Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan) 755-772
Sharwin I 772-797
Karim <-- (omitted in some sources) -->
Shahriyar I 797-825
Qarin I 837-867
Abul Melik
Surkhab
Abul-Hamza
Michke m. Katchik-Gagik (Vaspurakin) 908-943/4
Abu as-Sahl Hamazasp III 958-972
Derenik
Katchik I, Pr. T'ornavan 1042
Hasan
Abul Gharib, Gov. Tarsus
daughter m. Auschin I (Lampron), ob. ca. 1110
Hetum II, ob. ca. 1143
Auschin II, 1125-70
Hetum III, 1151-1218
Constantine I, 1220-49
Hetum IV, ob. 1250
Alix m. Balian d'Ibelin
Guy d'Ibelin
Alix d'Ibelin m. (1279) Hugh de Lusignan
~Ford~
From: norenxaq
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: Emperor Su-tsung 756-762 Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
Leo van de Pas wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "norenxaq" <nore...@san.rr.com>
> To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 3:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Emperor Su-tsung 756-762 Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
>
> >
> >
> > Leo van de Pas wrote:
> >
> > > I hope this line can be substantiated as it would give interesting
> ancestors
> > > to quite a lot of people. Not only Queen Elizabeth II is then a
> descendant,
> > > but probably all todays European monarchs, a large number of European
> > > aristocracy, especially French, but also individuals
> > > like the Aga Khan, Lady Diana Spencer, Sarah Ferguson, Rachel Ward,
> Gianni
> > > Agnelli,
Fashion designer Prince Egon von Furstenberg
> > > Winston Churchill, Brooke Shields, Valery Giscard d'Estaing and
> > > amongst gen-med I could find only one, Peter de Loriol.
> > >
> > > Best wishes
> > > Leo van de Pas
> >
> > as well as related to them via marriage
> >
> If the line stands they are, more importantly, descendants, not just
> relations, of this Chinese Emperor. I think "Norenxaq" is on the tracks of
> something interesting as well as important.
thank-you
>
> I only wish the Chinese people who made this claim had provided us with a
> line on which they base their claim.
> Leo van de Pas
as do I...
________________________________________________________________
Perhaps if someone knows someone who knows Chinese, who could search the
Shanghai newspaper archives?
Respectfully,
~Ford~
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Overture! Curtains! Lights!
This is it, the night o' nights!
No more rehearsing, and cursing our parts;
We know every part by heart!
Overture! Curtains! Lights!
This is it, we'll hit the heights!
And, oh what heights we'll hit -
On with the show, this is it!
The Williams Family
I have some concerns with part of this line, see below. It may help to read this post backwards (from Queen Elizabeth
to Li Hu) as that is the order in which I wrote my comments.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Leo van de Pas
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:42 PM
> Subject: Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
>
> Li Hu
> Li Bing, m. Lady Tuku
> Emperor T'ang Kao Tsu 618-626 (Li Yuan), m. Tu
> Emperor T'ang T'ai Tsung 626-649 (Li Shih-min), m. Wen-te
> Emperor T'ang Kao Tsung 649-683, m. Empress Wu 690-705, dt. Wu Shihou by
> Lady Yang
> Emperor T'ang Jui Tsung 684-690, 710-712, m. 2ndary Consort Tu
> Emperor T'ang Hsuan Tsung 712-756, m. Yang Guifei
> Emperor Su Tsung (T'ang) 756-762
> Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)
> Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan) 755-772
> Sharwin I 772-797
> Karim <-- (omitted in some sources) -->
> Shahriyar I 797-825
> Qarin I 837-867
> Abul Melik
> Surkhab
> Abul-Hamza
At this point Toumanoff diverges from the descent given in this chart. He states that Mlke, wife of Gagik II, was the
daughter of a certain Abu Hamza or Gregory Artsrouni, son of a certain Vasak Artsrouni who he supposes to be a brother of
Abu Beldj Artsrouni (d. ca. 850) (Toumanoff, pp. 90-91). He provides very little information on any of these people and
it is conceivable that he may have made a mistake but it would require a further examination of the primary evidence to
confirm or deny this.
I would consider the genealogy above Abu Hamza to unproven until further evidence comes to light.
>
> Michke m. Katchik-Gagik (Vaspurakin) 908-943/4
Khatchik (note that this is the same name as his probable descendant below) or Gagik II Artsrouni, King of Vaspurakan (908
- 943/44). He was born in 879 and d. 943/44. His wife was Mlke, see commentary above (Toumanoff, p. 91).
The _Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium_ (III: 2154) transliterates his name as Xac'ic and says that he was crowned king of
Vaspurakan by the Muslims in opposition to the Bagratid king Smbat I.
>
> Abu as-Sahl Hamazasp III 958-972
Abu Sahl or Hamazasp III, Prince Artsrouni (958/59 - 969). He married Gaday, of uncertain parentage (Toumanoff, p. 91).
>
> Derenik
Nothing is known of this Derenik but Toumanoff considers him to definitely be a son of Hamazasp (Toumanoff, p. 91).
>
> Katchik I, Pr. T'ornavan 1042
Khatchik I "le Sourd", Prince of Tornavan from an unknown date until his death in battle, 1042 (Toumanoff, p. 92).
Toumanoff gives only a dotted line from him back to Derenik which usually means he is guessing or going on very vague
evidence. Since Khatchik is known to be an Artsrouni I imagine he grafted him on to the place that fit best in the main
Artsrouni family tree.
>
> Hasan
> Abul Gharib, Gov. Tarsus
Byzantine Governor of Tarsus, ca. 1075 to aft. 1080. (Toumanoff, p. 92). There seems to be no evidence for the forename
Hasan.
>
> daughter m. Auschin I (Lampron), ob. ca. 1110
Given as "N. Ardzouni, d. of Abul'gharib, Governor of Tarsus" by Rudt-Collenberg (_R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]). Toumanoff
gives the same filiation (Toumanoff, _Manuel de Genealogie_, pp. 92-93).
From Oshin I, Lord of Lampron, to Elizabeth II of Great Britain is rather well-trodden ground so I have not bothered to
give any specific details on the people in this chart other than in places where there are errors. For the generations
before Oshin I have included more details as the line seems more uncertain.
>
> Hetum II, ob. ca. 1143
> Auschin II, 1125-70
> Hetum III, 1151-1218
> Constantine I, 1220-49
> Hetum IV, ob. 1250
> Alix m. Balian d'Ibelin
The 1279 marriage date given below actually applies to this marriage (Rudt-Collenberg, _R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]).
The generations from Alix of Lampron back to Oshin (or Auschin as in this chart) I, Lord of Lampron, are sound
(Rudt-Collenberg, _R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]).
>
> Guy d'Ibelin
> Alix d'Ibelin m. (1279) Hugh de Lusignan
Hugh & Alix are nos. 1592-1593 of "A Medieval Heritage" and ought to be listed in the next issue of _The Genealogist_ (the
last issue ended on 1591). They did not marry in 1279 but instead on 18 Jun 1318 (see Rudt-Collenberg, _The Rupenides,
Hethumides & Lusignans_, Chart XI [I]).
>
> Jacques I m. Helvis of Brunswick
> James I de Lusignan m. Charlotte Bourbon
His name was Janus, not James, see Sturdza, _Dictionnaire_, pp. 616-617 & "A Medieval Heritage", No. 398.
>
> Anne de Lusignan m. Louis (Savoy)
Pierre I de Luxembourg, Comte de St. Pol (1390-1433) married Margherita del Balzo (1394-1469), daughter of Francesco del
Balzo, Duca di Andria, & Sueva Orsini (Thompson & Hansen, "A Medieval Heritage", Nos. 392, 393, 786 & 787).
The incorrect connection between Pierre I and Marguerite is due to a confusion of Pierre I with his grandson & namesake
Pierre II (c.1439-1482) who DID marry Marguerite di Savoia (1439-1483), daughter of Ludovico and Anne above. Note that
this daughter is not given in my old series edition of ES Band II although a daughter Maria who married Pierre II's father
Louis as his second wife is given. Some explanation and confirmation from primary sources would be nice to unravel this
tangle.
See: ES (old series) II: 112; Sturdza, _Dictionnaire_, pp. 616-617; "A Medieval Heritage", Nos. 196-197.
>
> Margaret m. Peter (Luxemburg) 1390-1433
> Louis
These two generations should be eliminated. See above.
>
> Peter
> Marie m. Francis Bourbon
> Antoinette m. Claude, Duke of Guise
> Mary m. James V of Scotland
> James VI
The generations from Comte Pierre II to James VI & I can be traced in Thompson & Hansen's "A Medieval Heritage: The
Ancestry of Charles II, King of England" and present no problems.
>
> Elizabeth m. Frederick V of Bavaria
> Sophia m. Ernst Augustus, Elector of Hanover
> George I
> George II
> Frederick
> George III
> Edward
> Victoria
> Edward VII
> George V
> George VI
> Elizabeth II
The generations from James VI & I to Queen Elizabeth are obviously correct.
>
>
> there might be other lines as well
>
> _
There might be, certainly there are other descents from the Artsrouni and the Lords of Lampron.
~Ford~
of 1279 in the wrong slot. Not double-checking, and I apologize!
I have, (more carefully), added a little information to the T'angs. Have
not been able to determine which one invented powdered orange juice, though.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: The Williams Family
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 3:16 PM
> Subject: Re: Emperor Su-tsung 756-762 Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I have some concerns with part of this line, see below. It may help
to read this post backwards (from Queen Elizabeth
> to Li Hu) as that is the order in which I wrote my comments.
>
> Sincerely,
> Kelsey J. Williams
>
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Leo van de Pas
> > To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
> >
Li Min Hui
Li
Li On Ching
Li Liang
> > Li Hu
> > Li Bing, Duke of T'ang, ob. 572, m. Lady Tuku Yüan Chên (of interesting
ancestry)
> > Emperor T'ang Kao Tsu, (High Progenitor) 618-626, (Li Yuan, v. 566-635),
m. Tu T'ai Mu
> > Emperor T'ang T'ai Tsung, (Supreme Ancestor) 626-649, (Li Shih-min, n.
599), m. Wen-te, ob. 636
> > Emperor T'ang Kao Tsung, (High Ancestor) 649-683, (Li Zhi, n. 628), m.
Empress Wu 690-705, (n. ca. 625), dt. Wu Shihou by
> > Lady Yang, (related to Sui dyn.)
> > Emperor T'ang Jui Tsung, (Far-sighted Ancestor) 684-690, 710-712, (Li
Dan, v. 662-716), m. 2ndary Consort Tu
> > Emperor T'ang Hsuan Tsung, (Profound Ancestor) 712-756, (Li Lomg-ji, n.
685), m. Yang Guifei, (related to the Sui dynasty)
> > Emperor T'ang Su Tsung, (Respectful Ancestor) 756-762, (Li Yu, n. 711)
> > Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)
> > Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan) 755-772
> > Sharwin I 772-797
> > Karim <-- (omitted in some sources) -->
> > Shahriyar I 797-825
> > Qarin I 837-867
> > Abul Melik
> > Surkhab
> > Abul-Hamza
>
> At this point Toumanoff diverges from the descent given in this chart. He
states that Mlke, wife of Gagik II, was the
> daughter of a certain Abu Hamza or Gregory Artsrouni, son of a certain
Vasak Artsrouni whom he supposes to be a brother of
> Abu Beldj Artsrouni (d. ca. 850) (Toumanoff, pp. 90-91). He provides very
little information on any of these people and
> it is conceivable that he may have made a mistake but it would require a
further examination of the primary evidence to
> confirm or deny this.
>
> I would consider the genealogy above Abu Hamza to be unproven until
further evidence comes to light.
>
> >
> > Michke m. Katchik-Gagik (Vaspurakin) 908-943/4
>
> He was born in 879 and d. 943/44.
>
> >
> > Abu as-Sahl Hamazasp III 958-972
>
> Abu Sahl or Hamazasp III, Prince Artsrouni (958/59 - 969). He married
Gaday, of uncertain parentage (Toumanoff, p. 91).
Any speculation, here? I ask this, realizing that it is ONLY speculation.
But maybe someone has something more concrete?
> [C]ertainly there are other descents from the Artsrouni and the Lords of
Lampron.
It beseemeth me that the genealogies of Central Asia hold the key to this
conundrum. I reïterate my earlier question, does anyone have tables of the
rulers of the Khazars, Cumans, Polovetsy, Turks, or others that might bring
enlightenment?
Respectfully,
-Ford-
'Blessings on thee, little man,
Barefoot boy, with cheek of tan!
With thy turned-up pantaloons,
And thy merry whistled tunes;
With thy red lip, redder still
Kissed by strawberries on the hill;
With the sunshine on thy face,
Through thy torn brim's jaunty grace;
From my heart I give thee joy, --
I was once a barefoot boy!'
John Greenleaf Whittier, 'The Barefoot Boy'
Chris Bennett
"norenxaq" <nore...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:40194B71...@san.rr.com...
>
> Hello:
>
> following is what I came up with as a possibility:
>
> Emperor Su Tsung (Tang)
> Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)
> Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan)
> Sharwin I
> Karim
Joseph --
What is the documentation for these first few generations? Particularly the
link from the Uighurs to Tabaristan.
Chris