Matilda Musard
Joema...@aol.com
Could someone in the group tell me if there is a connection between
Matilda Musard, daughter of Hasculfus Musard and wife of Geoffrey Foljambe,
and Matilda Musard, daughter of Richard Musard, and wife of Matthew
Hathersage?
Thanks for your help.
Joan Burdyck
Robert S Baxter
You asked earlier for the relationship between two Matilda Musards. The
register below should explain.
Regards,
Bob
Modified Register for Harscoit Musard Constable of Richmond
First Generation
1. Harscoit Musard Constable of Richmond.
He had the following children:
+ 2 M i. Roald Musard Constable of Richmond.
+ 3 M ii. Robert Musard.
+ 4 F iii. Maud Musard.
5 M iv. Eudo Musard.
Second Generation
2. Roald Musard Constable of Richmond (Harscoit).
Roald married Garsiena de Pleven, daughter of Enisan de Pleven "Musard" and
Nee de Bretagne.
They had the following children:
6 M i. Alan Musard.
+ 7 F ii. Tiphaine Musard
8 M iii. Eudo Musard.
9 M iv. Harscoit Musard.
10 F v. Ismene Musard.
11 M vi. William Musard.
3. Robert Musard (Harscoit).
He had the following children:
+ 12 M i. Richard Musard. Richard Musard died 1162.
4. Maud Musard (Harscoit).
Maud married Sir Geoffrey Foljambe, son of Sir Ralph de Folechampe and
Gundred de Ferrers.
They had the following children:
+ 13 M i. Sir Henry Foljambe.
Third Generation
7. Tiphaine Musard (Roald, Harscoit).
Tiphaine married Picot II de Lascelles, son of Roger I de Lascelles. Picot
died 1178.
They had the following children:
+ 14 M i. Roger Lascelles. Roger Lascelles was born about 1160 and died
after 1217.
15 M ii. Enisand Lascelles.
12. Richard Musard (Robert, Harscoit) died 1162.
He had the following children:
+ 16 M i. Harscoit II Musard. Harscoit II Musard died 1185.
17 M ii. William Musard of the Red Sword.
18 F iii. Matilda Musard. Wife of Matthew Hathersage?
19 F iv. Constance Musard.
13. Sir Henry Foljambe (Maud Musard, Harscoit).
Henry married Eleanor fitz Herbert, daughter of Thomas fitz Herbert.
They had the following children:
+ 20 M i. Sir John Foljambe. Sir John Foljambe died 1249.
Fourth Generation
14. Roger Lascelles (Tiphaine Musard, Roald, Harscoit) was born about 1160.
He died after 1217.
Roger married Beatrice.
They had the following children:
21 M i. Picot Lascelles died after 1252.
Picot married Maude.
22 F ii. Tiphany Lascelles.
+ 23 M iii. Robert Lascelles.
24 M iv. Roger Lascelles.
25 F v. Maud Lascelles.
26 F vi. Flandria Lascelles.
16. Harscoit II Musard (Richard, Robert, Harscoit) died 1185.
Harscoit married Joan.
They had the following children:
27 M i. Ralph Musard was born about 1170. He died 1230.
28 M ii. Robert Musard.
20. Sir John Foljambe (Henry Foljambe, Maud Musard, Harscoit) died 1249.
John married Margaret Luttrell, daughter of Geoffrey Luttrell.
They had the following children:
+ 29 M i. Sir Thomas Foljambe. Sir Thomas Foljambe was born 1204 and died
1282.
Fifth Generation
23. Robert Lascelles (Roger Lascelles, Tiphaine Musard, Roald, Harscoit).
Robert married Matilda.
They had the following children:
30 M i. Roger Lascelles.
31 F ii. Avice Lascelles.
Avice married (1) Thomas de Maunby.
Avice also married (2) Ralph de Amundeville.
32 M iii. Gerard Lascelles.
29. Sir Thomas Foljambe (John Foljambe, Henry Foljambe, Maud Musard,
Harscoit) was born 1204. He died 1282.
Thomas married Margaret de Gernon.
They had the following children:
33 M i. Sir Thomas Foljambe died 1323.
Thomas married Catherine le Eyr, daughter of William le Eyr.
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Joema...@aol.com
Thanks for your help. I really appreciate it.
Joan
Jay Cary
Can you tell me from whence this information on the earliest generation comes? Thanks,
Jay
Robert S Baxter
-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Cary [mailto:Jay....@dartmouth.edu]
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 4:34 PM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Matilda Musard
Bob,
Can you tell me from whence this information on the earliest generation
comes? Thanks,
Jay
Jay,
It comes from Domesday People and Domesday Descendants.
Bob
Jay Cary
I think that in the identity of your earliest Harscoit, you have conflated two individuals into one. I
believe that Harscoit, father of Ruald the Constable of Richmond is a different person than Harscoit,
Domesday lord of Staveley in Derbeyshire. For Harscoit Musard, of Derbyshire, see DP, p. 246, DD, p.
1048, and Sanders Baronies, p. 83. Sanders seems to have dopped the first generation after Harscoit (per
Keats-Rohan). For Harscoit de Sancto Jacobo, father of Ruald of Richmond(1136-1160), see DD p. 249 and p.
689-90. I cannot find anywhere that the two considered the same individual. It looks like the Derbyshire
Harscoit preceeds the father of Ruald by one generation.
Jay
Robert S Baxter
-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Cary [mailto:j...@dartmouth.edu]
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 8:58 PM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Matilda Musard
Bob,
I think that in the identity of your earliest Harscoit, you have conflated
two individuals into one. I
believe that Harscoit, father of Ruald the Constable of Richmond is a
different person than Harscoit,
Domesday lord of Staveley in Derbeyshire. For Harscoit Musard, of
Derbyshire, see DP, p. 246, DD, p.
1048, and Sanders Baronies, p. 83. Sanders seems to have dopped the first
generation after Harscoit (per
Keats-Rohan). For Harscoit de Sancto Jacobo, father of Ruald of
Richmond(1136-1160), see DD p. 249 and p.
689-90. I cannot find anywhere that the two considered the same individual.
It looks like the Derbyshire
Harscoit preceeds the father of Ruald by one generation.
Jay
Jay,
Thank you. I will go back and check again.
Bob
Robert S Baxter
Jay,
I don't don't have access to Sanders. But here are the relevant entries
from Keats-Rohan.
DP 188
ENISAN MUSARD
An important Breton tenant of Count Alan, especially in Yorkshire. The bulk
of his holdings were known shortly after his death, before 1130, as the
Constable's fee, half of which, with the office of constable, being
thereafter held by Roald son of Harscoit, Constable of Richmond, and his
descendants, and the other half by Richard I de Rullos, the most likely
relationshing being that she was the eldest daughter of his eldest son;
Emma, wife of Richard de Rullos was perhaps her sister. Alexander Musard, a
contemporary of Roald and his son, probably descended from a younger son, or
even a daughter of Enisan. Musard is a byname meaning stupid or lazy in
Latin. The importance of Enisan's holdings of Count Alan perhaps indicate
that he should be identified with the Enisan de Pleveno (Pleven, dept.
Cote-d'Amor), husband of an illegitimate half-sister of the count, whose
tenants included three natural half-brothers and his wet-nurse (Morice,
Preuves I, 458, a note added to the foundation charter of Saint-Martin de
Lamballe given by Alan's brother Geoffrey Botere I, reads:'Brien videlicet
comes Anglice terre and Alainus Rufus eius scilicet successor, alter Alainus
qui et Niger dicatur-hic etiam tertius successit in regno-et quidem qui
sororem eius bastardam uxorem duxerat, Enisandus de Pleveno.').
DP 246
HASCOIT MUSARD
Breton, Domesady tenant-in-chief. Received a glowing commendation Liber
Eliensis (p. 277), which relates that he became a monk of Ely. They claimed
that he had brought with him the manor of Estune (probably Aston Somerville,
Gloucestershire), with the assent of his son Robert, but a writ of William
II (ibib. 207-08) shows that Harscoit had first granted it to fellow-Breton,
Bishop Hervery of Ely, ten years before the bishop was connected with the
abbey. His son Rober succeeded him in the early twelfth century (a
generation is ommitted in sand, 83).
DD 249
CONSTABULARIUS, RUALD
Roald son of Harscoit, constable of Richmond, c. 1136-60. His office was
perhaps acquired through his marriage to Garsiena, heiress of Enisand
Musard. His father Harscoit was a son or nephew of Harscoit to Sancto
Jacobo, vicecomes de Saint-Hilaire (q.v.). Father of Alan the Constable,
Harscoit, William, Eudo, Ismania, wife of Philip de Burgh, and Theophania,
wife first of Picot II de Lacelles and second of Elias fitz Wigan. Founder
of Easby abbey (EYC v. p. 89).
_______
More to follow. The entry of Harscoit de St James is very long. And there
are other entries under the de Sancto Jacobo rubric which indicated some
other members of his family. And also a long list of entries Musard.
Regards,
Bob
Robert S Baxter
To continue where I left off. The entry for Harscoit de St James is so long
I will only precis it.
DE SANCTO JACOBO, HARSCOIT
DD 689
His personal name is Breton Harcoit. By the time he first appears in
documents, c 1086-90, Saint-James and his other holding
Saint-Hilaire-du-Harscouet are part of Normandy....Son of Eudo, he was
nephew of Robert vicomte de 'Bodiaco'(Bouce'). His wife was Matilda, and
his sons were Eudo, Philip, and Peter....charter given before 1106 attested
by....his brother Peter....His son James ansered in 1129 for land the king
had given him(Harscoit). A Harscoit son of Eudo appears in charter of Henry
I...An entry in Pipe Roll 31 Henry I (p. 87) referes to Hasculf
'forestarius' of Rutland ...taken to refer to Harscoit of Saint-James, an
assumption based on the succesion to the forestry by his son Peter, the name
of son who succeeded Harscoit of Saint-James in his Norman
lordships...Harscoit...disappears from document after 1121...his son
Peter...shortly after 1157, but Peter the forester was alive in 1187. Peter
the forest and Peter of Saint-Hilaire were clearly the son of different, but
related, fathers called Harscoit....possible that Henry I's Harscoit son of
Eudo was granson of the Harscoit son of Eudo ... more probably, there were
one and the same. Harscoit I's sons James and Peter were both English
landholders by 1129 and Eudo son of Harscoit occurs in NORTHANTS
SURVEY, parts ... relate to the later part of Henry I's reign, and part to
that of Henry II. Charters...state that Peter and James de Saint-James were
born after the foundation of the priory in 1090, at a time when Harscoit had
a least two sons Eudo and Philip... details difficult to date....abudnant
evident relating to Harscoit's family shows clearly that it was relation
both to Harcoit the Forester and to Roald fits Harscoit....
Probably either Harcoit I or his brother Peter was the father of Harcoit II,
in who we can see Harscoit the Forester, father of Peter and probably also
of Roald the Constable and his brother Eudo....
------------
Listing below this entry for James de St James, son of Harcoit, brother of
Peter de St.Hilaire. His wife was Avelice and daughter Matilda wife of
Roger de Clare, earl of Hertford.
More to follow.
Regards,
Bob