The le Brun family of Bothel & Torpenhow in Cumberland
Tim Cartmell
I recently came across a family settlement document regarding the le Brun family of Cumberland that gives name to a certain Patrick le Brune within this family line. See my post to SGM, "Hubert de Multon of Isell in Cumberland, and his first wife Ada le Brun," dated Sat, 21 Jul 2007 11:42:50 -0400 (EDT). The record document link is interesting in the fact that it names this Patrick le Brune, as the lord of Bothyl circa 1276, and also identifies his son as Richard.
In 1927, Mr. T.H.B. Graham wrote an article about this le Brun family of Cumberland. He stated regarding their origins that "Denton [John Denton] supposes the families surnamed de Feritate and le Brun, sometime lords of Bowness, were one and the same, and were descended from a common ancestor, Gamel son of Brun, alias le Brun. The manor of Bothel, in Torpenhow parish, originally given to Gamel son of Brun; the manor of Bowness, with its vills of Drumburgh, Glasson and Fingland; the manor of Beaumont, and the manor of Brunscaythe, all belonged to de Feritate, at the close of the thirteenth century and to le Brun, at the beginning of the fourteenth century. Denton further supposes (Accompt, pgs. 49, 78) that the le Bruns were styled de Feritate, because their mansion of Brunscaythe was seated towards the wild wastes" (another author supposed the name may have been derived from la Ferte in France). (Source: Transactions, CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1928, article,
'Bowness-on-Solway,' by author T.H.B. Graham, pgs. 167-178.)
Mr. Graham conjectured a sketch pedigree and supposed that the le Brun branch of this family were likely the issue of a third son William. (Source: Transactions, CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1928, pg. 177.) See Mr. Graham's attached pedigree for de la Feritate and le Brun family, weblink from British History online.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/image.aspx?compid=49473&filename=fig2.gif&pubid=399
In 'The Register of the Priory of St. Bees,' and the public online archives, there are references to Patric (le) Brun and the Brun family in Cumberland (see following records). From what these records suggest, Mr. Graham's conjectural pedigree appears to have omissions regarding a succession of Patric (le) Bruns (who appear to have been men with a connection to the barony of Allerdale), and possibly the misplacing of Richard le Brun, the sheriff of Carlisle within their family line.
What the records show:
1. Gamel, son of Brun
Gamel le Brun received the manor of Bothel in the parish of Torpenhow from Waldeve, baron of Allerdale, son of Gospatric, Earl of Northumberland; received Ruthwaite in the parish of Ireby from Alan, son of Waldeve; Gamel is named as a witness for Alan, son of Waldeve, baron of Allerdale. (Source: 'The Register of the Priory of St. Bees,' Surtees Society, by J. Wilson, published 1915, pgs. 492, 493, 536, 537.)
1.1 Patric, son of Gamel (possibly le Brun?)
Patricio filio Gamel is named as a witness in a property grant, specifically, "Confirmation by Adam son of Uhtred to Beatrice his niece of 5 oxgangs of land in Gilcrux given to her by his nephew William, son of Liolf de Molle." (Source: 'The Register of the Priory of St. Bees,' published 1915, pgs. 550, 551.)(the witness names suggest they are local to places near Gilcrux.)
1.1.1..? Patrick Brun
father: unknown
Patrick Brun, is mentioned in Alice de Rumeli's grant in 1209-1210 as being the father of Patric. See the attached weblink. (Source: The National Archives.)
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=6927888&j=1
1.1.1.1..? Patric Brun
father: previous Patrick Brun
Pat'cio Brun is named in the Pipe Rolls for Cumberland, 2 Richard I (1191). (Source: The Pipe Rolls of Sheriffs Annual Accounts of the Revenues of the Crown for the County of Cumberland, Westmorland and Durham during the Reigns of Henry I, Richard, I, and John, pg. 63.) See Google Books.
Patricio Brun(o) is named as witness for Alice de Rumelli (c. 1200-1210), also named is Ranulpho Bruno (relationship unknown, no reference given as to brother, son, nephew, etc.)(Source: 'The Register of the Priory of St. Bees,' published 1915, pgs. 450, 451, 482.)
1.1.1.1.1.? Richard (le) Brun, sheriff of Carlisle (see T.H.B. Graham's pedigree)
father: unknown
(note: see the attached weblinks; states Richard f. Radulph, and Richard de la Ferte as witnesses, however may have been a different person from le Brun(e).
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=49473&strquery=Radulph%20de%20la%20Ferte,%20Richard%20f.%20Radulph,
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=49475&strquery=de%20la%20Ferte,
Richard (Ricardo) Brun is named as witness in various charters; also is named with Ralf (Radulfo) de Feritate, and Gilbert de Feritate (relationship unknown, no reference given); the charters date to abt. 1212-1213. (interestingly the other witness names suggest a local connection to places near the holdings of le Brun, re: Bothel, Torpenhow, and Ireby, specific names mentioned are, Isaac, parson of Torpenhow, de Ireby, de Derham, de Plumbland, de Tallentire, etc. Ricardo le Brun is also named as "tunc ballivo de Egyrmund" (baliff of Egremont) abt. 1230, and "tunc senescaldo Couplandie" (steward of Coupland) abt. 1240-1250. (Source: 'The Register of the Priory of St. Bees,' published 1915, pgs. 289, 291, 297, 302 footnote, 321, 379, 381, 397, 398.)
Also, is named as Richard le Brune circa 1246+. See attached weblink record.
http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/records.asp?cat=023-day&cid=1-1-2
1.1.1.1.1.1.? Patrick le Brune, lord of Bothyl
father: unknown
A family agreement record specifically names Patrick le Brune as lord of Bothyl in abt. 1276, and also names his son as Richard by his first wife; Patrick is mentioned as a witness in 1262 & abt. 1277. Sources:
http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/records.asp?cat=024-wdry&cid=42-25
http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/records.asp?cat=023-dmh&cid=3-2
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=49513&strquery=Brune
1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir Richard le Brun, Knt. (d: March, 1312-1313)
father: probably the aforementioned Patrick le Brune, re: son named Richard, and the stated connection with Bothel.
Mr. Graham wrote that this Richard le Brun in 1300, inherited from Robert de la Ferte (see British History online pedigree chart) all his lands. Note: Robert de Feritate appears as a witness in the aforementioned Patrick le Brun family settlement dated circa 1276. Mr. Graham stated that in 1284 there was a settlement by feet of fine between Richard le Brun, Robert de la Ferte, and Robert's wife Ada, wherein Richard grants to Robert and his wife, the manors of Drumburgh and Bowness. The settlement apparently indicates that if Robert and Ada were to die without heirs, then the properties would revert back to "the fictitious grantor," Richard le Brun and his heirs. (Feet of Fines, Cumberland, C.P. 25, case 35, file 6, no. 27).
"There was a grant in September 1301, to Richard le Brun and his heirs, of free warren in his demesne lands of Bothel, Drumbugh, Bowness and Beaumont (Cal. Charter Rolls, pg. 22.)"; was the Knight of the Shire of Cumberland in 1307; was granted licence to crenallate at Drumburgh [Castle] in 1307 (Cal. Pat. Rolls, pg. 11.); "was the brother of Ada le Brun, divorced wife of Hugh de Multon, tenant of Isel. (Cal. Fine Rolls, 1310, pg. 57.)" At his death, Richard le Brun was found by jury as holding 1/2 of the hamlet of Brunscathye, and his son Robert with his wife Margaret, were then holding the other 1/2. Richard le Brun also held the manor of Bothel of Anthony de Lucy [baron of Allerdale]; and 1/6 of Torpenhow of the heir of John Wake [baron of Liddel]; and also held the manors of Beaumont, and Drumburgh of John de Castre, and Isabel [widow of Thomas de Multon, baron of Burgh], his wife. Robert is named as his son and heir, aged 29 years. (Cal. inq. p. m., 6 Ed. II, pg.
215.)(Source: Transactions, CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1928, pgs.172,173,174.)
Also, is named as Richard le Brune in March 1312, abt. the time of his death. See attached weblink record.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-4836170
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1. Sir Robert le Brun, Knt. (b: 1283, d: bef. 1342)
father: aforementioned Sir Richard le Brun
Recieved his father's lands the May following Lady Day in 1313 (Cal. Fine Rolls, pg. 165 & 172.); was the Knight of the Shire of Cumberland in 1316, 1320, 1326-1327; was conservator of the peace in 1320 (Cal. Pat. Rolls, pg. 461); in 1322 by feet of fine Robert le Brun settled Bowness upon himself for life, with the remainder to his son Richard and his heirs, or failing onto Robert's other right heirs (Feet of Fines, Cumberland, C.P. 25, case 35, file 8, no. 16.); was the Sheriff of Cumberland in 1325. (Cal. Fine Rolls, pg. 342.)(Source: Transactions, CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1928, pgs. 174,175.)
In closing, would anyone have other source documentation which may help confirm or reject the placement of the said unknown Patric(k) Bruns and/or Richard (le) Brun(e) within this family?
Through the last le Brun co-heiress, Margaret and Elena, this le Brun family would be, I believe, ancestors of the Curwens of Workington, and Haringtons of Farleton.
Thanks,
Timothy J. Cartmell
---------------------------------
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail
ADRIANCH...@aol.com
The witness Patrick le Brun at
http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/documentxsl.asp?com=1&i=0&nbKey=2&stylesheet=xsl\
A2A_com.xsl&keyword=Patrick%20le%20Brun&properties=0601
(PRO; A2A; Cumbria Record Office, Carlisle Headquarters: Mounsey-Heysham
Family;
Reference: DMH 10/1/2)
Is perhaps the same Patrick Brun, but I'm not sure if that is much help.
Adrian
Timothy J. Cartmell wrote;
In a message dated 18/08/2007 21:29:01 GMT Standard Time, inve...@yahoo.ca
writes:
<snip?
al...@mindspring.com
> A2A_com.xsl&keyword=Patrick%20le%20Brun&properties=0601
>
> (PRO; A2A; Cumbria Record Office, Carlisle Headquarters: Mounsey-Heysham
> Family;
> Reference: DMH 10/1/2)
>
> Is perhaps the same Patrick Brun, but I'm not sure if that is much help.
>
> Adrian
>
> Timothy J. Cartmell wrote;
>
>
> writes:
>
> <snip?
> In closing, would anyone have other source documentation which may help
> confirm or reject the placement of the said unknown Patric(k) Bruns and/or
> Richard (le) Brun(e) within this family?
>
> Through the last le Brun co-heiress, Margaret and Elena, this le Brun family
> would be, I believe, ancestors of the Curwens of Workington, and Haringtons
> of Farleton.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Timothy J. Cartmell
Also see:
'Parishes: Bewcastle - Brigham', Magna Britannia: volume 4: Cumberland
(1816), pp. 26-40. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=50680.
Date accessed: 19 August 2007.
for a Bowet heiress as well.
Doug Smith
ADRIANCH...@aol.com
Tim,
>From the last lines of your post, could you confirm that Margaret and Elena
are the coheirs of Sir Robert le Brun, Knt. (b: 1283, d: bef. 1342),
presumably Sir Robert's son, Richard dvp and sp.
>From the following the above Sir Robert had a brother Richard le Broun, but
I find no further mention of him
Reference: DMH 10/2/35
Quitclaim by Anthony de Lucy lord of Caldebeck to John bishop of Karliol of
all his right in the advowson of the church of Caldebeck; Creation dates: 6
January 1316/17
Scope and Content
Witnesses: John de Castre, sheriff of Cumberland, Richard of Kirkebride,
William of Mulecastre, Alexander of Bastenthweyt and Robert of Bampton, knights,
Robert le Broun, Richard le Broun, his brother, John of Orreton, John de
Boyvill, William of Osemundrelaw, William le Blount, At Karliol
Seal: Anthony de Lucy. Three luces, hauriant.
PRO; A2A; Cumbria Record Office, Carlisle Headquarters: Mounsey-Heysham
Family
There are a number of deeds for which Robert le Brun and John of Orreton are
co-witnesses, an in fact they were fellow MPs for Cumberland in 1326/7
I have found the following Bruns returned to Parliament for Cumberland
A Ricardus le Brun (with Alexander de Bastenthueit represented the County of
Cumberland for the Parliament at Northampton on 13 October 1307. Robertus
le Brune and Johannes de Skelton for the Parliament of 1316; Alexander de
Bastenthweyt and Robertus le Broun at Westminster, 1320. Robertus le Brun and
Johnannes de Orreton at Westminster for 1326/7; Willielmus Broun and Thomas de
Fresington for Carlise City at Northampton 26 July 1338; (Checked to 1400)
(Members of Parliament 1213-1874; Ordered by The House of Commons, to be
Printed 1 March 1878)
In secondary sources I have seen it claimed that the Browne's Viscounts
Montague descend from an MP for Cumberland and I think it is shown as such in one
or more visitations, but has been shown to be erroneous. e. g:-
In the middle of the fourteenth century Anthony Browne (the younger son of
Robert Browne or le Broun, who represented Cumberland in Parliament) settled in
London and in time became a rich merchant. He was created a Knight of the
Bath at the coronation of Richard the Second, for he had lent a large sum of
money to the King and had been generous enough to cancel the bond. This
Anthony Browne left two sons, Sir Robert and Sir Stephen.
(Cowdray The History of a Great English House by Mrs. Charles Roundell 1884.
p 11)
Regards,
Adrian
In a message dated 18/08/2007 21:29:01 GMT Standard Time, inve...@yahoo.ca
writes:
WJhonson
In secondary sources I have seen it claimed that the Browne's Viscounts
Montague descend from an MP for Cumberland and I think it is shown as such in one
or more visitations, but has been shown to be erroneous>>
Thomas Browne of Beechwood Castle was an adult by 1428 when Edward Guildford released to feoffees the Manor of Eygthorne to the use of Thomas Browne.
He was a grocer and citizen of London who slowly rose in power as a wool merchant evidently, and became MP for Kent by 1439-40. Eventually tried and beheaded for treason Jul 1460
I have yet to see any firm documentation on who his ancestors may have been. I have a Sir Richard Browne Knt with no source and so probably comes from a database I suspect, until I can find something useful.
Will Johnson
ADRIANCH...@aol.com
In a message dated 22/08/2007 22:54:27 GMT Standard Time, wjho...@aol.com
writes:
Will Johnson
=====
Will,
Thanks for your post. Nor have I found firm documentation of his father,
but must have been in good standing to obtain the Fitz-Alan spouse. I think it
is the Essex Visitation is the one which makes the connection to the
Cumberland Brun, but there are then intervening generations which are clearly
bollixed.
Although he was executed for high treason, he was in fact a victim of the
War of the Roses. Here is a summary of my researches, including a short bit
on the circumstances of his death.
Adrian
Grocer, citizen of London, but acquired properties in Kent; comptroller of
the household
1428 Edward Guildford released to Walter Hungerford, William Darel, Thomas
Browne, and John Forescue the Manor of Eygthorne, to the use of Thomas Browne
1431 [067 has 1434] Married Eleanor d&h of Sir Thomas Fitz‑Alan of
Beechworth/Betchworth Castle, (the br of John, Earl of Arundel) and had issue.
1433, July 11 Perhaps the Thomas Broun who was, with others, ordered to
sell the wine and merchandise taken of the captured Spanish ship Manequeneth
1434 June 8 With others, given a commission to muster men at arms at Dover.
1434 July 12 With others, given a commission to muster men at arms at Dover.
1434-35 Acquired Harbledowne, Tennington, and West Bere, Kent from John
Fogge
1435 March 30 Perhaps the Thomas Broune merchant to ship wool to Calais
for the king
1437, Oct 10 J ustice
1437 Nov 27 Comm to make inquisition in Kent
1438 Feb 12 Comm to make inquisition in Kent
1438 May 12 Pardon with John Broun and four others after entering 100 acres
in Parish of la Rivere by Dover bought from Thomas Thorold and entering it
without licence.
1438 May 26 Comm re inquisition into the state of Newenton by Hethe, etc
1438 Dec 12 Comm to make inquisition in Kent
1439 Mar 19 One of the commissioners for Kent to raise a loan for the king.
1439-40 MP for Kent
1440 July 24 Licence to sell wool abroad, in consideration of his recent
misfortunes and impoverishments in Kent
1440 Aug 18 Licence for life to trade over-seas
1442 Feb 5 Held 100 acres in Couperlond, Ryver by Dover
1442 Mar 30 Comm to raise loan for king in Kent
1443 Feb 16 Comm to make inquisition in Kent
1443 Mar 18 Acquired the marriage and wardship of John s&h of Thomas Torell
(Tyrell*) of Shelley/Shellow, Bowells, Ongar, Essex
1443 May 8 Comm to make inquisition in Kent
1443-44 Sheriff of Kent
1444 July 11 Acquired, with others, marriage of Robert s&h of Robert Kirkham
1445 Acquired West Bere from John Scott
1445 Oct 8 Licence to trade with aliens etc
1445-46 MP for Kent
1446 June 1 Comm to raise loan in Kent for king
1446 Dec Exchequer clerk
1447 c. Feb Under treasurer of the exchequer
1447 Feb 8 Granted stewardship of lordships of Mylton and Merden Kent after
death of Dk of Gloucester (who d 23 Feb 1446/7, whilst under arrest)
1447 July 18 Appointed under-treasurer of the exchequer
1449 July 8 Granted right to hold annual fairs at Eythorne, Kent;
Kyngesnede, Kent; Swanscombe, Kent; Wymblyngweld, Kent; Tong, Kent; Betchworth, Surrey
1449 July 12 Granted exemption from assizes etc.
1449 Sep 25 Comm to raise a loan for the king in Kent
Parl. of Nov 1449The staplers of Calais continued their campaign against the
hated licences to bypass Calais in o/seas trade, and Henry VI reluctantly
agreed to annul all but those granted to the queen, Suffolk, Thomas Walsingham,
Thomas Browne, John Pennington, (these last 3 were members of the royal
household) and the prior of Bridlington
1450 Slandered by the populace
Jul 1453 July Admitted to the council
July 1453 Joined the council of Hy VI, which also included Sir Thomas
Tyrell, Whittingham and Thorp
1458 On commission at Rochester to inquire into the quarrel between Richard
Nevill Er of Warwick and the citizens of Lubeck
1458 Ganted (Royal?) Swanscombe manor, plus grant of a fair, Kent but soon
afterwards it returned to Dk of York.
1459 June 1x 1461 July 20 Thomas’ wife Eleanor was devised, Manors of
Pluckley and Waldershare (Waldeshare) in Tenterton/Tenderden from Joan Knowght,
(-Will 1 June 1459} g-dau and heir of Richard Malmayn and dau of Henry Knowght.
Eleanor is incorrectly called a widow.
1459 c.Dec Granted Swanscombe manor
1460 Sheriff of Kent
c1460 At latter end of Hy VI Browne acquired Caldham/Coldham, and Hoptons
manor. Alkham and Morehall manor, Cheriton all of, or near Folkestone. From
Robert Brandred and Morris-court, Bapchild (which may have been acquired by the
Brownes before 1412); Tong manor (royal grant?); and Eythorne manor (050
states this was acquired 7 Hy VI, 1428-9) acquired from Sir Walter Hungerford
and Batfriston manor, Wyborne's estate acquired from John de Monyngham; manor
of Hartangre, Barson parish; Land called `Walsted' and `Huddes' at Lindfield,
Sussex. For Betchworth and land in Surrey see ipm, Dorking and for London
the inquisition both below.
Jul 1460 Temp bat of Northampton, the Lancastrians held up in the Tower of
London were Lords Scales (Thomas de Scales k 25 Jul 1460 attempting to escape
from tower), Moleyns (Robert Hungerford who m Eleanor d&h of Wm de Moleyns,
escaped from the Tower but bhd 18 May 1464), Lovel (John Lovel, released, d
1464/5), Vesci (Henry Bromflete, released from Tower; d 1468/9), and De la
Warr (Richard West, released from Tower, d. 1475/6), as well as household
figures like Sir Edmund Hampden, Sir Thomas Browne, Sir Gervase Clifton, and Sir
Thomas Tyrell. The Tower, besieged by Ld Cobham and the sheriffs, surrendered
on 19 July, and in the last week of July a Sir Thomas Browne with at least 6
others were condemned and beheaded at Tyburn
20 July 1460 Tried and convicted of high treason, beheaded and attainted
c1461 His widow m2 Thomas Vaughan of Tretower, Wales, later KB.
28 May 1476 ipm at Dorking
Tim Cartmell
I believe, Margaret, Elena and Elizabeth would have been granddaughters of Sir Robert le Brun, Knt. (d: bef 1342). The final co-heiress of the le Brun estate lands were the three sisters of the last surviving Robert Brun. John Denton stated that these co-heiress were the daughters and heirs of Richard Brun. (Source: Thomas Denton: A Perambulation of Cumberland in 1687-1688, published by The Surtees Society, 2003, pg. 212.)
The three co-heiress Margaret, Elena and Elizabeth were probably the daughters of the following Richard Brun.
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Richard Brun (d: bef. 1354)
father: Sir Robert Brun, Knt. (d: bef 1342)
Richard is mentioned as the lord of Drumburgh in 1342, in which he presented William de Kirkbythore as the new parson to the church of Bowness, replacing the previous late parson that had been presented by his father Robert Brun; was a commissioner in Carlisle in 1345 (Cal. Pat. Rolls, pg. 584). (Source: Transactions, CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1928, pgs. 175,176.)
Next Bruns in succession,
i). Robert Brun (d: 1369)
father: Richard Brun (as per John Denton)
Is mentioned as lord of Drumburgh; presented a new parson to the church of Bowness in 1354; made a will at Bothel, which was proved in 1369, requested burial at Bowness. (Test. Karl. edit Ferguson, pg. 98.) (Source: Transactions, CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1928, pgs. 175,176.)
John le Brun (d: aft. 1381, bef. 1394?)
father: unknown
Seems to have succeeded Robert Brun who d: 1369; was the sheriff and keeper of Carlisle Castle in 1376 (Cal. Fine Rolls, pg. 369.); John was a patron of Bowness church in 1381. (Source: Transactions, CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1928, pgs. 175,176.)(don't know the relationship of this John; perhaps Robert's will would shed light on who this John was.) John le Brun must have held only a life interest in Bowness, as in the end, the three co-heiress were considered the heiress of their brother Robert le Brun.
ii). Margaret le Brun (d: aft. 1369, bef. 1394?)
father: Richard Brun
Married: Sir William le Engleys, Knt. (d: 1369) of Highhead Castle in Cumberland. (Source: CWAAS, 'Cumberland Families and Heraldry,' published 1978, pgs. 44, 204.)
Children: Isabel, who was recorded as being 24 years old in 1369; married Sir Nicholas de Harington, Knt. (d: 1403) of Farleton in Lancashire. (Source: L' Engleys family, CWAAS, 'Cumberland Families and Heraldry,' published 1978, pg. 204.)
iii). Elena le Brun (d: c.1395)
father: Richard Brun
Married 1stly, Sir Thomas Whitrigg (of Branthwaite & Little Bampton in Cumberland); married 2ndly, Sir William Culwen [Curwen], Knt. of Workington in Cumberland. (Source: le Brun family, CWAAS, 'Cumberland Families and Heraldry,' published 1978, pg. 44.)
Children: Sir Christopher Curwen of Workington (d: 1453)
John Curwen of Porchester Castle (d: 1441)
iv). Elizabeth le Brun
father: Richard Brun
Married: Thomas Bowet of Warcop & Soulby. (Source: CWAAS, 'Cumberland Families and Heraldry,' published 1978, pgs. 34, 44,.)
Children: Thomas Bowet
Richard Bowet
Published support information:
"In 1394, William Culwen and Elena his wife claimed against Nicholas de Haverington two portions of one-third of the manor of Beamond [Beaumont in Cumberland]. The grounds for possession made by Nicholas were that Robert Bruyne (Brun or le Brun), brother of Elena and uncle of another claimant of part of the manor, Richard Bowet, was possessed of these two portions and of other land in fee: that he enfeoffed three interim feoffees and died; that William de Culwen, Elena and Richard Bowet supposing that Robert Brun had leased the lands for his life only, entered into possession; that the three feoffees re-entered as they had a right to do, and, of course, ejected William and Elena and Richard, and now he, Nicholas, holds these. He does not say how the interm feoffes made them over to him*. William and Elena, and Richard Bowet said that they did not recognize all this. They stated that there had been an interview at Drumbough [Drumburgh] between Robert Bruyn and the three
feofees in which the arrangement was made that if Robert should die leaving no heir of his body; and the aforesaid Elena, and Elizabeth and Margaret, formerly wife of William Inglys, Knt., the sisters and heirs of Robert, or their heirs paid within a year and a day next after his death, in the Cathedral of St. Mary of Carlisle, to the three feoffees, or to any one of them 400 marks, they could then enter into possesion of his lands and they and their heirs hold then for all time. After Robert Bruyne's death William Ingleys and Margaret then his wife, Thomas Quyterig and Elena then his wife, and Thomas Bowet and Elizabeth then his wife, frequentlly and oft offered the 400 marks within the prescribed time to the three feoffees; and William Culwen and Elena now his wife and Richard Bowet were always ready to pay their portion but the three feoffees refused and continued to refuse to take the money. Nicholas declined to recognize the arrangement, and persisted in repeating his
former statement." Assize of Thursday after the Assumption of St. Mary, 1394. (Source: Transactions, CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1914, article 'de Culwen', by Rev. Frederick W. Ragg, pgs. 375, 376.)
The aforementioned claim went to jury, and Elena must have succeeded in her case, as in August 1395, William Culwen her husband, is found granting to interim feoffees all his lands, which included the properties that Elena had inherited from her brother Robert le Brun, specifically, Bothel, Bowness-on-Solway, and "Bronsthath" [Brunscaythe].(Source: ibid. Ragg, pg. 376, & A History of the Ancient House of Curwen, by JF Curwen, published 1928, pg. 67.)
In 1398, Maud de Lucy, baroness of Copeland & Allerdale died, then wife of Henry Percy, 1st earl of Northumberland. By inquest post mortem it was found that within her barony lands, the manor of Bothel and 1/8 part of Torpenhow were then held by Nicholas Harington, William Culwen and Thomas Bowet. (Cal. Inq. p. mortem, vol. iii, pg. 244, 22 Richard II, n. 38.) (Source: A History of the Ancient House of Curwen, published 1928, pg. 68.)
*In Ian Grimble's book 'The Harington Family', it reads that Sir Nicholas Harington early on, became a powerful man in Lancaster affairs through a combination of personal ambition, the holden of various positions of trust and authority, and as a loyal supporter of John de Guant, Duke of Lancaster. The status and power of Sir Nicholas was clearly demonstrated at age 27 yrs., when he had complicity "in an incident which occured one year after he first entered Parliament (as Knight of the Shire of Lancaster) wherein on 1 March 1373 a Dacre laid complaint that Sir Nicholas had come to Beaumond in Cumberland with three hundred armed men, and destroyed houses, assaulted servants and tenants, driven away horses, cattle and sheep worth 50 pounds. Whatever the cause of this turbulence may have been, it is not without significance that a Dacre complained in vain." (Source: The Harington Family, by Ian Grimble, pgs. 26-29.)
In my mind, this incident may have been in response to an interest in the le Brun estate, wherein Sir Nicholas was asserting to claim certain rights (mother-in-law or wife's inheritance?) to the manor of Beaumont in Cumberland?
Finally, I don't have anything regarding a connection between this le Brun family of Cumberland, and the Brun family you speak of in the south of England.
Hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Tim Cartmell
ADRIANCH...@aol.com
Dear Timothy,
Thank you so much for your post. I'm quite astounded at the detail you have
found, the lines of Shelly comes to mind "Look on my works, ye mighty, and
despair!", well I guess I will plod on.
best regards,
Adrian
In a message dated 24/08/2007 02:12:28 GMT Standard Time, inve...@yahoo.ca
writes:
Dear Adrian,
WJhonson
iii). Elena le Brun (d: c.1395)
father: Richard Brun
Married 1stly, Sir Thomas Whitrigg (of Branthwaite & Little Bampton in
Cumberland); married 2ndly, Sir William Culwen [Curwen], Knt. of Workington in
Cumberland. (Source: le Brun family, CWAAS, 'Cumberland Families and Heraldry,'
published 1978, pg. 44.)
Children: Sir Christopher Curwen of Workington (d: 1453)
John Curwen of Porchester Castle (d: 1441) >>
------------------------
The mother of Sir Christopher Curwen of Workington has also been identified as "Margaret Croft". What proof is that that Elena le Brun was his mother instead?
Thanks
Will Johnson
WJhonson
-----------------------
Will the problem is evidently more complicated than that.
Leo shows here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00290118&tree=LEO
stating that Sir Christopher Curwen's mother was Margaret Croft
citing The Royal Lineage of Our Noble and Gentle Families, London, 1884, Foster, Joseph, Reference: 132
--------------------
Stirnet gives a confusing hoy-polloi here
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/cc4rz/curwen01.htm
saying this his father was Thomas... or maybe Gilbert and doesn't show a William in this area whatsoever ( red flag alert !)
So it appears we have another case of dueling secondary sources.
We know of course from the lawsuit that a William Culwen (or Curwen) existed. We just have to figure out where he goes and why he seems to have been overlooked above. And if there are any primary references to who Sir Christopher Curwen's father was.
Will you might be interested to know that Sir Christopher has a
Monument at St. Michael's Church, Workington, Cumbria
although I don't know what it says, if anything.
Will Johnson
Bob Turcott
To all: Does anyone know if the MARIE-MADELEINE BRUN mentioned below is somehow related
to Richard Brun. I have not researched this, but are very curious to see if anyone knew of any
kind of kinship? Would this be a worthwhile effort to research if not certain?
regards,
Bob Turcott
JEAN1 DOIRON was born Bet. 1647 - 1649 in Rochefort, France, and died Abt. 1735 in Pisiquid, Nouvelle Ecosse, Canada.. He married (1) MARIE-ANNE DE CANOL 1671 in l'Acadie. She was born 1651 in France, and died Unknown in Prob. Port Royale, Nouvelle Ecosse, Canada.. He married (2) MARIE TRAHAN Abt. 1693 in Pisiquit, l'Acadie., daughter of GUILLAUME TRAHAN and MARIE-MADELEINE BRUN. She was born 1672 in Port Royale, l'Acadie., and died 1710 in Pisiquit, l'Acadie..
> Cumberland. (Source: CWAAS, 'Cumberland Families and Heraldry,' published 1978,
> pgs. 44, 204.)
>
> Children: Isabel, who was recorded as being 24 years old in 1369; married Sir
> Nicholas de Harington, Knt. (d: 1403) of Farleton in Lancashire. (Source:
> L' Engleys family, CWAAS, 'Cumberland Families and Heraldry,' published 1978,
> pg. 204.)
>
>
> iii). Elena le Brun (d: c.1395)
>
> father: Richard Brun
>
> Married 1stly, Sir Thomas Whitrigg (of Branthwaite & Little Bampton in
> Cumberland); married 2ndly, Sir William Culwen [Curwen], Knt. of Workington in
> Cumberland. (Source: le Brun family, CWAAS, 'Cumberland Families and Heraldry,'
> published 1978, pg. 44.)
>
> Children: Sir Christopher Curwen of Workington (d: 1453)
> John Curwen of Porchester Castle (d: 1441)
>
>
> iv). Elizabeth le Brun
>
> father: Richard Brun
>
> Married: Thomas Bowet of Warcop & Soulby. (Source: CWAAS, 'Cumberland
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
_________________________________________________________________
Discover the new Windows Vista
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE
WJhonson
He married (2) MARIE TRAHAN Abt. 1693 in Pisiquit, l'Acadie., daughter of GUILLAUME TRAHAN and MARIE-MADELEINE BRUN. She was born 1672 in Port Royale, l'Acadie., and died 1710 in Pisiquit, l'Acadie.. >>
-------------------------
You know that the Acadians were all French. The name should probably be writen "Le Brun" instead of Brun.
They were all French, that's why the English governor deported them a few generations after your Marie died, because he didn't trust them, because they wouldn't swear allegiance to King George.
Bob Turcott
WJ,
Yes indeed true, however I am compelled to research a connection to Sir Robert le Brun, Knt. (d: bef 1342)
what do you think.
From: wjho...@aol.com
<>
-------------------------
You know that the Acadians were all French. The name should probably be writen "Le Brun" instead of Brun.
They were all French, that's why the English governor deported them a few generations after your Marie died, because he didn't trust them, because they wouldn't swear allegiance to King George.
_________________________________________________________________
Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy!
http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 8/25/2007 1:30:03 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
bobtu...@msn.com writes:
Yes indeed true, however I am compelled to research a connection to Sir
Robert le Brun, Knt. (d: bef 1342)
what do you think.
--------------------
I have grave doubts that you'll find any connection between the French le
Brun family and the English Brun family. But go ahead and try. You might turn
up some new and useful resources in your hunt.
Will
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Bob Turcott
Will,
I will take a peek, if indeed a branch of the Brun family migrated from England to France it could have happened during 1066 as migrations of this sort have been known to happen. In Terms of Brun as compared to Le Brun its like saying Malbaie in canada being la malbaie, I think but not certain Brun means Brown
and the same meaning would hold true for Le brun based on a preliminary surname study, There is a more exhaustive part of the meaning for the name Brun in which indeed refers to hair or complexion darkness.
Lets see what happens maybe the surname has two completely different origins or maybe one.
Bob
From: WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 8/25/2007 1:30:03 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, bobtu...@msn.com writes:
Yes indeed true, however I am compelled to research a connection to Sir Robert le Brun, Knt. (d: bef 1342)
what do you think.
--------------------
I have grave doubts that you'll find any connection between the French le Brun family and the English Brun family. But go ahead and try. You might turn up some new and useful resources in your hunt.
Will
Tim Cartmell
Not to dash your enthusiasm, but just keep in mind these le Bruns, lords of Drumburgh in Cumberland were extinct since the late fourteenth century.
Assuming you are looking for the original starting point of the family earlier back to possible origins in France, I have seen Gamel le Brun's name stated as Baviell le Brunn. John Denton stated his name was Gamel le Brun. Keep in mind that their family name was also de la Ferte, or de Feritate, and was suggested [by Du Cange?] that this may indicate places in France.
Their name Brun may have just originated from Brunscaythe a manor in Bowness-upon-Solway which was firstly held by the family named de Feritate at a date subsequent to 1169, and was still held by them in "1281-12 inq. p. m. Robert de Feritate held Brunscaythe of the lord of Liddell."
The very first named was Robert de la Ferted (c. 1130) "attested a very early charter respecting land situated on the river Kernshope, boundary of Liddel." (Cal. Doc. Scot., ii pg. 423). (Source: Transactions, CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1928, article 'Bowness on Solway', pg. 168, 169.)
See the attached weblink about this le Brun family extinction.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=50667&strquery=brun#p98
Good Luck.
Timothy J. Cartmell
Bob Turcott <bobtu...@msn.com> wrote:
WJ,
Yes indeed true, however I am compelled to research a connection to Sir Robert le Brun, Knt. (d: bef 1342)
what do you think.
From: wjho...@aol.com
<>
-------------------------
You know that the Acadians were all French. The name should probably be writen "Le Brun" instead of Brun.
They were all French, that's why the English governor deported them a few generations after your Marie died, because he didn't trust them, because they wouldn't swear allegiance to King George.
_________________________________________________________________
Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy!
http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now!
WJho...@aol.com
Bruns' moved to France and stayed there you will have accomplished a truly
Herculean task and your name shall shine forever in the annals of genealogical lore.
I.E. Most if not all of these alleged exchanges are spurious.
Bob Turcott
Tim,
Thanks! I will take all the advise and will look over the extinction docs.
It is understood I am looking into 2 origins one French and the other English.
The scope will be to look at the french liniage in france to see if there would be a noble
line in france that may not necissarily connect to the english root, never the less I think this
line will be interesting to reaserch anyway as it seemsit may be an unresearced frontier!!
I will research this with an open mind, as far as I am concerned my branch will be considered
of French origin until such evidance comes along that a glamorous sparking piece of paper
shows the french liniage connected to that the english branch, however I find your Le brun
extinction to be very interesting, so in searching for an english connection will be low priority, but the french root will take priority to find out if there may be an unrelated noble family in france, who knows maybe the french Le brun could be the commoners and the english the blue bloods!!! Interestingly I got this from the dreaded ancestry.com about the le brun surname.
Lebrun
French: variant of Brun (‘brown’), with the definite article le. This is a name associated with the Huguenots in the U.S.
Dictionary of American Family Names, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-508137-4
brun
French: descriptive nickname, le Brun ‘the brown one’, from Old French brun, referring to the color of the hair, complexion, or clothing (see Brown). This name is also Catalan and Swiss (in the French as well as the German speaking parts).
North German and Scandinavian: nickname Germanic bruna ‘brown’, referring to the color of the hair, complexion, or clothing or from a Germanic personal name, Bruno, with the same meaning. See also Braun.
Dictionary of American Family Names, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-508137-4
Brown
English, Scottish, and Irish: generally a nickname referring to the color of the hair or complexion, Middle English br(o)un, from Old English brun or Old French brun. This word is occasionally found in Old English and Old Norse as a personal name or byname. Brun- was also a Germanic name-forming element. Some instances of Old English Brun as a personal name may therefore be short forms of compound names such as Brungar, Brunwine, etc. As a Scottish and Irish name, it sometimes represents a translation of Gaelic Donn. As an American family name, it has absorbed numerous surnames from other languages with the same meaning.
Dictionary of American Family Names, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-508137-4
________________________________
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 12:15:48 -0400
From: inve...@yahoo.ca
Subject: RE: The le Brun family of Bothel & Torpenhow in Cumberland
To: bobtu...@msn.com; GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Dear Bob,
Not to dash your enthusiasm, but just keep in mind these le Bruns, lords of Drumburgh in Cumberland were extinct since the late fourteenth century.
Assuming you are looking for the original starting point of the family earlier back to possible origins in France, I have seen Gamel le Brun's name stated as Baviell le Brunn. John Denton stated his name was Gamel le Brun. Keep in mind that their family name was also de la Ferte, or de Feritate, and was suggested [by Du Cange?] that this may indicate places in France.
Their name Brun may have just originated from Brunscaythe a manor in Bowness-upon-Solway which was firstly held by the family named de Feritate at a date subsequent to 1169, and was still held by them in "1281-12 inq. p. m. Robert de Feritate held Brunscaythe of the lord of Liddell."
The very first named was Robert de la Ferted (c. 1130) "attested a very early charter respecting land situated on the river Kernshope, boundary of Liddel." (Cal. Doc. Scot., ii pg. 423). (Source: Transactions, CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1928, article 'Bowness on Solway', pg. 168, 169.)
See the attached weblink about this le Brun family extinction.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=50667&strquery=brun#p98
Good Luck.
Timothy J. Cartmell
Bob Turcott wrote:
WJ,
Yes indeed true, however I am compelled to research a connection to Sir Robert le Brun, Knt. (d: bef 1342)
what do you think.
From: wjho...@aol.com
<>
-------------------------
You know that the Acadians were all French. The name should probably be writen "Le Brun" instead of Brun.
They were all French, that's why the English governor deported them a few generations after your Marie died, because he didn't trust them, because they wouldn't swear allegiance to King George.
_________________________________________________________________
Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy!
http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us
_________________________________________________________________
Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger
http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline
Tim Cartmell
In response to your questions about Sir William Culwen and his family:
In the published book 'Cumberland Families and Heraldry', by C. Roy Hudleston, & R. S. Boumphrey and J Hughes, published 1978, pg. 79, Curwen family, it states "Sir William (d: 1403), High Sheriff 1397, married Elena, sister and coheir of Robert le Brun, q.v. Their son Sir Christopher (c. 1382-1453) was High Sheriff 1415, 1423, 1427, 1433, 1437 and 1444." Their sources referenced are the following three published Curwen family histories;
- Papers and Pedigrees Mainly Relating to Cumberland and Westmorland, by William Jackson, published 1892, article, 'The Curwens of Workington Hall'.
- Transactions, CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1914, article 'de Culwen', by Rev. Frederick W. Ragg.
- 'A History of the Ancient House of Curwen', by JF Curwen, published 1928.
Regarding Sir William Culwen [Curwen] of Workington, he had two wives, 1stly Elena le Brun, and 2ndly Margaret Croft. All three of the aforementioned Curwen family histories state this.
I believe where the idea originated that Margaret Croft was the mother of Sir William's sons, was from the burial monument at St. Michael's Church in Workington. On the monument are the arms for Curwen impaling Croft, and as such, I think an assumption has been made that this meant she was the mother. William Jackson also stated in his book that Margaret Croft was the mother of Sir William's two sons, and that she was the second wife.
On the other hand, Rev. Frederick W. Ragg put his mind to this problem, and argued against Margaret Croft being the mother. He stated that Margaret Croft was the second wife of Sir William, and therefore could not possibly have been the mother of Christopher Curwen. Ragg stated that Elena was a widow when she married Sir William (sometime after 1369) and that she was still living in 1394 (proven by her claim against Sir Nicholas Harington). He went on to state that even if Sir William did marry Margaret Croft in the same year 1394, it could not be possible that she was the mother of Christopher, because he is recorded as being burgess of Appleby in 21 Richard II (1397-1398). Ragg further argued, Christopher had to be of age (21 yrs.) in 1403, as he wasn't held as a minor in custody of the Percies, and he had possession of his father's lands. Ragg also stated that Christopher would have to be of considerable experience, strength and reputation to be one of the six english
champions chosen to fight six scottish knights, in tournament at Carlisle in the year 1417. Finally, JF Curwen in his book, shows that Christopher is first named as being lord Christopher Curwen, Knt. in a land settlement regarding the manor of Thornthwaite in Westmorland, dated 1404. Sir Christopher Curwen was named Knight of the Shire of Cumberland firstly in 1414, and then Sheriff of Cumberland in 1415, etc.
Maybe the Croft coat of arms on the tomb at St. Michael's church, just simply meant that she was the last wife of Sir William Culwen [Curwen]?
Interestingly, with Sir William's marriage to Elena le Brun, the Curwens continued to quarter their coat of arms as 1 and 4 Curwen, with 2 and 3 le Brun. These coat of arms are supposedly shown in Tonge's Visitation of Cumberland in 1530, in Robert Glover's Visitation of Yorkshire in 1584, and in Richard St. George's, Visitation of Cumberland in 1615. Le Brun, being azure, a lion rampart argent, charged with five lozenges gules or billetee instead (Source: A History of the Ancient House of Curwen, by JF Curwen, published 1928, pg. 70.)
Now to make a comment on your statement "a William Culwen existed" in 1394. It was not "a William Culwen", but was "the William Culwen". I had failed to include a listing of William's lands that were recorded as being granted in 1395 along with Elena's (at the time I was just focusing on her lands). William's lands granted along with Elena's were recorded as being Workington, Seaton, Thornthwaite in Derwent Fells, Thornthwaite in Westmorland, Shap, Bampton Patrick, Bampton Cundal, Holme in Kendale, Dearham, etc. So he was indeed Sir William Curwen, Knt. of Workington. Ragg gives the full charter agreement in both latin and the english translation. (Source: CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1914, article 'de Culwen', by Rev. Frederick W. Ragg, pgs. 398-400.)
Sir William Curwen, his father Sir Gilbert, and two brothers Hugh and Giles all died of the plauge in 1403, "the year of the great pestilence in the north". (Source: A History of the Ancient House of Curwen, by JF Curwen, published 1928, pgs. 66, 71.) Ragg believed that Margaret Croft likely died of the plague as well.
2). Now to your last quandary about the Stirnet website, I can say that it is incorrect. They are missing three generations of Curwens. There were four Sir Gilbert Curwens, then William, then Christopher, then Thomas, then Christopher II, etc.
Yes, there is a primary source giving all three generations together, Sir William de Curwen, his father Sir Gilbert de Curwen, and Christopher de Curwen, William's son. It is a re-enfeoff indenture agreement made at Warkworth by the earl of Northumberland, along with his son Sir Henry de Percy, dated 8 May 1401, regarding the Curwen family lands formerly held under Maud de Lucy who died in 1398, specifically, the manors of Workington, Seaton, and Thornthwaite in Derwentfells in Cumberland. This indenture is from the Lowther documents supplied by the Earl of Lonsdale to Rev. Frederick W. Ragg. The indenture names specifically, "Sir Gilbert de Curwen father of the said Sir William....etc.", and "......the said earl shall make a secure estate for Christopher de Curwen, son of the said Sir William...etc". Ragg has copied out the indenture in full, both in latin and with the english translation. (Source: CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1914, article 'de Culwen', by Rev. Frederick W.
Ragg, pgs. 402-405. Also, A History of the Ancient House of Curwen, by JF Curwen, published 1928, pgs. 68, 69.)
In closing, just a point of interest in case anyone was wondering, Sir Christopher Curwen did win his match in the tournament at Carlisle in 1417. JF Curwen stated, "Sir Christopher threw his adversary, Sir Halyburton, from his horse, severely hurt in his neck." He sourced this back to Dugdale, Baronage, vol. i, pg. 342.
Regards,
Timothy J. Cartmell
WJhonson <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:
<<iii). Elena le Brun (d: c.1395)
father: Richard Brun
Married 1stly, Sir Thomas Whitrigg (of Branthwaite & Little Bampton in
Cumberland); married 2ndly, Sir William Culwen [Curwen], Knt. of Workington in
Cumberland. (Source: le Brun family, CWAAS, 'Cumberland Families and Heraldry,'
published 1978, pg. 44.)
Children: Sir Christopher Curwen of Workington (d: 1453)
John Curwen of Porchester Castle (d: 1441) >>
------------------------
The mother of Sir Christopher Curwen of Workington has also been identified as "Margaret Croft". What proof is that that Elena le Brun was his mother instead?
Thanks
Will Johnson >>
-----------------------
Will the problem is evidently more complicated than that.
Leo shows here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00290118&tree=LEO
stating that Sir Christopher Curwen's mother was Margaret Croft
citing The Royal Lineage of Our Noble and Gentle Families, London, 1884, Foster, Joseph, Reference: 132
--------------------
Stirnet gives a confusing hoy-polloi here
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/cc4rz/curwen01.htm
saying this his father was Thomas... or maybe Gilbert and doesn't show a William in this area whatsoever ( red flag alert !)
So it appears we have another case of dueling secondary sources.
We know of course from the lawsuit that a William Culwen (or Curwen) existed. We just have to figure out where he goes and why he seems to have been overlooked above. And if there are any primary references to who Sir Christopher Curwen's father was.
Will you might be interested to know that Sir Christopher has a
Monument at St. Michael's Church, Workington, Cumbria
although I don't know what it says, if anything.
Will Johnson
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
WJhonson
Timothy thank you for your helpful post.
One point, surely we don't know that Christopher Curwen was born *in* 1382, but rather the argument that he had custody of his father's lands in 1403 and was not held as a minor should tell us he was born *by* 1382. But could have been born earlier as well.
Or is there a document we can cite that states his age ?
Will
Tim Cartmell
Yes, you are correct.
I was quoting Cumberland Families and Heraldry, they said c. 1382.
Rev. Ragg stated that Sir Christopher Curwen was born no later than 1382.
Thanks,
Timothy J. Cartmell
Will
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
---------------------------------
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers.
WJhonson
Dear Will,
Yes, you are correct.
I was quoting Cumberland Families and Heraldry, they said c. 1382.
Rev. Ragg stated that Sir Christopher Curwen was born no later than 1382.
Thanks,
Timothy J. Cartmell >>
--------------------
Thanks Tim, much appreciated.
Will