C.P. Addition: Parentage of Sir Robert Peverel (living 1312) and his brother Bishop Walter de Langton (died 1321)

[celticp...@gmail.com]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Many members of the newsgroup descend from Sir Robert Peverel (living 1312, possibly murdered in 1317), of Ashby David (in Castle Ashby), Brington, Chadstone, and Church Brampton, Northamptonshire, and his wife, Alice. Included among Sir Robert's numerous descendants is Anne Boleyn, Queen of England, mother of Queen Elizabeth I.

Over the years there has been a lack of information in print regarding Sir Robert Peverel's extended ancestry. Complete Peerage 5 (1926): 76 (sub Engaine) identifies him as the brother of Walter de Langeton, Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, Treasurer of the Exchequer under King Edward I. The source cited for this relationship is Cal. Inq. p.m., Edw. II, file 70, no. 7, which a citation to the inquisition post mortem taken in 1321 and 1322 following the death of Bishop Walter de Langton. It can be viewed at the following weblink:

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol6/pp188-198

There are several inquests involved in this record. In one of them Sir Robert Peverel is specifically called the "brother" of Bishop Walter. In other inquests, Sir Robert Peverel's son, Edmund Peverel, is styled "kinsman" and also "nephew" of the bishop. No explanation is provided by the inquisition as to why Sir Robert Peverel should have a different surname from that of his "brother," Bishop Walter de Langton.

There is an interesting article by K.A. Patmore entitled "Bishop Walter de Langeton and the Bishop's Dam," which was published some years ago in Antiquary, 42 (1906): 255260, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=YNMCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA255

This author takes the position that Sir Robert Peverel was the brother-in-law, not brother, of Bishop Walter de Langeton. The author says:

"Alice de Langeton, the Bishop's sister, had been married some time before 1290 to Robert Peverel, and is known to have had four sons, Edmund being the eldest and his father's heir. Other sons were Walter and Robert ...." END OF QUOTE.

Regardless, besides the 1321 inquisition post mortem of Bishop Walter de Langeton, there are in fact several other contemporary records in which Sir Robert Peverel is specifically styled the Bishop's brother:

1. Hart, Cartularium Monasterii de Rameseia 3 (Rolls Ser. 79) (1893): 122–123, 153 (instances of Robert Peverel styled “brother and heir” [fratris et heredis] of Walter [de Langton], late Bishop of Coventry & Lichfield)].

See the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=QGpEAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA122

2. Miscellany 11 (Scottish Hist. Soc. 5th Ser. 3) (1990): 69 ( Sir Robert Peverel styled “brother of the treasurer” [i.e., Walter de Langton] in plea dated 1296).

3. Hughes, Episcopate of Walter Langton, Bishop of Coventry & Lichfield, 1296–1321 2 (Ph.D. thesis 1992): 357–358 (Robert Peverel, Knt., styled “brother” [germanus] of Bishop Walter de Langton in an obligation dated 1299).

This is available at the following weblink:

http://eprints.nottingham.ac.uk/11108/2/315105_VOL2.pdf

4. Beardwood, Records of the Trial of Walter Langeton, Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, 1307-1312 (Camden, 4th Ser. 6) (1969): 283-284 cites a record in which Robert Peverel is called brother of the bishop ["frer le dit Evesque"].

There have been two in-depth studies of Bishop Walter de Langton and his career in recent decades. The first one is an article by Alice Beardwood entitled “Trial of Walter Langton, Bishop of Lichfield 1307–1312.” This article was published in Transactions of the American Philosophical Soc. n.s. 54 (1964): 1–45, and was subsequently published in expanded book form as Records of the Trial of Walter Langeton, Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, 1307-1312 (Camden, 4th Ser. 6) (1969). The 1964 article can be viewed online for free on the JSTOR website.

On page 38 of the 1964 article, Beardwood discusses the history of Sir Robert Peverel:

"[Bishop] Langton's family connections are far from clear. His brother was called Robert Peverel. He was closely associated with the treasurer, acting as his attorney and frequently called his "familiar" or "abrocour." He held land in Brampton, Northamptonshire, and Langton transferred to him Castle Ashby and Brington in the same county by 1316. He was summoned for military service in 1297 and 1301. In 1307 he was arraigned for murder, and was protected by Langton until the latter's fall, when it was said that he fled the country taking with him some of the bishop's treasurer. He was, however, in Northampton castle jail in 1310, when he was brought to testify in a case. His lands were then in the king's hand. By 1312 he seems to have been pardoned as he was then acting as Langton's attorney. The chancery warrant, dated 23 September 1311 'to view the enclosed petition of Alice, the wife of Robert Peverel, and to do right and reason according to the law and usage of the realm' may be a preliminary to a pardon. He was murdered at Castle Ashby by 1317. In older accounts and geneolgies [sic] Alice is said to have been Langton's sister. However, she was living when Langton died but Edmund, her son and Robert's, was his heir." END OF QUOTE.

Beardwood realized that Sir Robert Peverel must have been the Bishop's brother alright, not brother-in-law. However, like Complete Peerage, she provided no explanation as to why they had different surnames.

In recent years the historian Jill Hughes has explored the life history and immediate family of Bishop Walter de Langeton in her doctoral dissertation, Episcopate of Walter Langton, Bishop of Coventry & Lichfield, 1296–1321 (Ph.D. thesis 1992). This dissertation is now available online in two volumes:

Vol. 1: http://eprints.nottingham.ac.uk/11108/1/315105_vol1.pdf

Vol. 2: http://eprints.nottingham.ac.uk/11108/2/315105_VOL2.pdf

In Vol. 1, pp. 198–212, Hughes includes a good discussion of Bishop Walter de Langeton's family based on original research in contemporary records. Based on that research, Hughes has identified Bishop Walter de Langton as the son and heir of Simon Peverel and also as the full brother of Sir Robert Peverel. Here are her comments:

"Langton's paternity had, until the present study of his register was undertaken, remained obscure; his historians have reiterated that he began his life as a poor clerk, that from his youth he was in Edward I's service, and that, although his brother was Sir Robert Peverel, knight, and his heir was Robert's son, Edmund Peverel, his connections with this knightly family were far from clear. Langton's register clarifies the bishop's connections with the Peverel family of Leicestershire and Northamptonshire and shows that he was a Peverel by birth. Copies of charters preserved in his register, by which Langton granted land and the advowson of the church of Adlingfleet, Yorks., to Selby abbey, clearly state his paternity; Langton names himself as the son and heir of Simon Peverel [Reference: Bishop Langton's Register, nos. 1291, 1292, 1293). Verification of this is found in the fourteenth-century abbatial register of Selby abbey recording the subsequent dispute over the patronage of the church. This very interesting account records Langton's acquisition of the advowson of Adlingfleet and also illustrates the fluidity of names in this period: Sir John Lovetot, knight, enfeoffed Simon Peverel of Langton with the advowson of Adlingfleet; he, as Simon Peverel of Ashley, enfeoffed the advowson on bishop Langton. After Peverel's death, Langton, his son and heir, transferred the advowson in mortmain to Selby abbey ... Robert Peverel is referred to in Langton's register as the bishop's brother, his 'frater' and his 'germanus,' suggesting that they were full brothers, having the same mother and father."). END OF QUOTE.

Hughes relates further information record Bishop Langton's parentage:

"[Bishop] Langton's mother, Amicia Peverel, was buried at Langton [Leicestershire] which suggests that the bishop may indeed have been born in one of the Langton villages, and Langton's bequest in his will of his breviary or service book to the church of Langton supports this theory ... The date of Simon Peverel's death is uncertain, and, as the copies of Langton's charters in his register are undated, the only indication of a date for his death is that it occurred prior to November 1304 when Selby abbey undertook to buy the advowson of Adlingfleet [Yorkshire]. Langton's mother, Amicia Peverel, died before 26 June 1297 [Reference: Reg. Sutton, vi, p. 8]." END OF QUOTE.

In support of Hughes' conclusions, I recently found a Common Pleas lawsuit dated Easter term 1371 in which Bishop Walter de Langton is again specifically styled "son and heir of Simon Peverel." This lawsuit may be viewed at the following weblink:

Court of Common Pleas, CP40/442, image 228f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no442/aCP40no442fronts/IMG_0228.htm).

As to the death date of Simon Peverel, Hughes indicates that Simon acquired the advowson of Adlingfleet, Yorkshire from Sir John de Lovetot, a prominent justice. As such, it appears that Simon Peverel must have died after 1292, when I find that Sir John de Lovetot presented Walter de Langeton [the future Bishop of Coventry & Lichfield] to this church.

Insofar as to when the Bishop's brother, Sir Robert Peverel, died, Hughes adds the following comment:

"[Robert] Peverel was probably murdered at Castle Ashby, Northants., by 1317 but another Robert Peverel was alive in August 1320. Langton's brother was dead, however, by the time of the bishop's own death in November 1321, as Edmund, Robert Peverel's son, was his heir." END OF QUOTE.

On this point, Hughes is possibly in error, as I note that Sir Robert Peverel is called "brother and heir" [fratris et heredis] of the Bishop in the published Cartulary of Ramsey Abbey cited further above. If correct, this suggests that Sir Robert Peverel was living at the date of the Bishop's own death in November 1321. Whatever the case, Sir Robert Peverel was clearly deceased before 2 December 1321, when the first inquest following the Bishop's death declared Sir Robert's eldest son, Edmund, as the bishop's heir.

Having said that, one must be careful, however, not to read too much into the stock phraseology "brother and heir." While it usually refers to the surviving brother of a deceased individual, it can also refer to a person's heir apparent. If the latter situation is applied here, then Sir Robert Peverel did not necessarily outlive his brother the Bishop.

Regarding the Peverel family coat of arms, Journal of the British Archaelogical Association 7 (1852): 227 reports the following:

"In one of Edward II's time, sir Robert Peverel bears, "de goules a les crussules patees d'or, a une fesse de argent." END OF QUOTE.

Foster, Some Feudal Coats of Arms and Others (1902): 161 gives the same arms:

"Peverell, Sir Robert, of co. Leic. — E. II. Roll) bore, gules, a fess argent between six crosses patonce or; Parliamentary Roll." END OF QUOTE

The same arms are found on the seal of Sir Robert Peverel's granddaughter and heiress, Margaret Peverel, wife of Sir William de la Pole:

Coll. Top. et Gen. 6 (1840): 228 (seal of Margaret, wife of William de la Pole, dated 1356 displays a shield charged with two bars wavy [DE LA POLE], impaling a fess between six crosslets [PEVEREL]).

Bedford, Blazon of Episcopacy (1858): 57 gives the arms of Bishop Walter de Langton as Or, a fess compony azure and gules.

Lastly, I should note that Bishop Walter de Langton is sometimes confused in print with another contemporary Walter de Langton. This second Walter de Langton is known to be the nephew and one of the executors of William de Langton (alias William de Rotherfield), Dean of York (died 1279), which William de Langton was in turn a known nephew of Walter de Grey, Archbishop of York. The two Walter de Langton's were actually separate and distinct persons. For further information on the other Langton family, please see Dixon, Lives of the Archbishops of York (Fasti Eboracenses) 1 (1863): 331; Gray, Reg., or Rolls, of Walter Gray, Lord Archbishop of York (Surtees Soc. 56) (1872): 122–123; Clay, York Minster Fasti 2 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 124) (1959): 33; Greenway, Fasti Ecclesiae Anglicanae 1066–1300 6 (1999): 7–13, 73–76.

For interest's sake, below is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Robert Peverel, brother of Bishop Walter de Langton:

Audrey Barlow, Essex Beville, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Charles Calvert, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Thomas Ligon, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Anne Mauleverer, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, Henry & William Randolph, William Rodney, Richard Saltonstall, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stratton, Samuel & William Torrey, John West, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.

Do you descend from Sir Robert Peverel? If so, I'd appreciate it greatly if you would post the line(s) of your descent from him down to about 1600.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[gdco...@gmail.com]

Douglas,

Thanks for this post. My line to Robert & Alice runs through my 19th century gateway. The descent down to the mid 1600's ends with Col Francis Lascelles, "almost" a regicide of Charles I, having ducked out when it came time to sign the death warrant.

Greg

1. Sir Robert Peverel, Knt = Alice
2. Joan Peverel = Sir John d'Engaine Knt.,
3. Elizabeth d'Engaine = Sir Laurence Pabenham, Knt.
4. Katherine Pabenham = Sir Thomas Aylesbury, Knt.
5. Eleanor Aylesbury = Sir Humphrey Stafford, Knt.
6. Joyce Stafford = Sir Marmaduke Constable, Knt.
7. Robert Constable = Joan Ingleby
8. Margaret Constable = John St. Quintin,
9. William St. Quintin = Dorothy Hastings,
10. Gabriel St. Quintin = Dorothy Griffith
11. Sir George St. Quintin, Knt = Agnes Creyke
12. Sir William St. Quintin, Knt., Bnt = Mary Lacy
13. Frances St. Quintin = Colonel Francis Lascelles

[celticp...@gmail.com]

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my previous post, I made the following reference to Sir Robert Peverel being called "brother of the Bishop."

"Beardwood, Records of the Trial of Walter Langeton, Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, 1307-1312 (Camden, 4th Ser. 6) (1969): 283-284 cites a record in which Robert Peverel is called brother of the bishop ["frer le dit Evesque"]." QUOTE FROM MY POST

A more full citation of this record reads as follows:

"William de Eston' clerk, Robert Peverel frer le dit Evesqe de Coventr' et Johan Abel qe par la ou le dit Johan de Ferers se feust pleynt du dit Euesqe de Cestre ..."

The full book by Alice Beardwood is available at the Cambridge University Press website at:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/camden-fourth-series/volume/F4453BC88D582D16B9EAC9D967D7A34D

Regarding my earlier discussion of the Peverel coat of arms, I find there is an interesting account of the tomb of Joan Pole, suo jure Lady Cobham [died 1434] published in Proceedings of the Somerset Archaeological & Natural History Society 44(2) (1898): 35-36. Joan Pole, Lady Cobham [died 1434] was the 2nd great-granddaughter and lineal heiress of Sir Robert Peverel.

The tomb bears various heraldic arms on six shields. The third shield displays a fess between six cross-crosslets (Peverel, of Castle Ashby) and De la Pole, quarterly, impaling Cobham.

This information offers further support for the arms used by Sir Robert Peverel recorded back in the reign of King Edward II and for the arms found on the seal of Lady Cobham's grandmother, Margaret (Peverel) de la Pole.

As far as the extended Peverel ancestry goes, as noted in my previous post, Jill Hughes has shown that Sir Robert Peverel and Bishop Langton's father, Simon Peverel, was of Langton, Leicestershire and Ashley, Northamptonshire. As such, he is surely connected with another Peverel family mentioned in a charter of earlier date who is involved with these same places.

Reedy, Basset Charters c.1120 to 1250 (Pubs. Pipe Roll Soc. n.s. 50) (1995): 27.

"Date: 13th or 14th cent., not before 1217"

"Grant and quitclaim by Richard Peverel of Great Oakley (?Northants) son of William Peverel of Piddington (?Northants) to Ralph Basset of Weldon of half his rights within and without the vills of Ashley and Thorpe Langton and in any other place which he had inherited from Ralph Peverel of Ashley." END OF QUOTE.

VCH Leicester 5 (1964): 193-213 sub Church Langton actually identifies Walter de Langton, Bishop of Lichfield, as the successor to Ralph Peverel, living 1279, whose lands he had by a grant from Richard de Pydyngton, regarding property at Thorpe Langton in the parish of Church Langton, Leicestershire. The following information is presented in that source:

"The demesne tenants of the Basset fee included the principal yeoman families in Thorpe Langton during the Middle Ages. In 1086 Roger was holding 3 carucates and 2 bovates under Robert de Buci, (fn. 298) and in 1130 Richard Basset was holding 3 carucates and 1 bovate. (fn. 299). Ralph Peverel in 1279 held 3½ virgates in demesne and 2 virgates in villeinage, all of which he held of Thomas de Langton, who held of Richard Burdet, who held of Robert de Tateshall, who held of Ralph Basset. Six free tenants together held 7½ virgates. [Reference: Bodl. MS. Rawl. B. 350, m. 21].

Walter de Langton (d. 1321), Bishop of Lichfield, succeeded Ralph Peverel as the principal tenant of the Basset fee, by grant from Richard de Pydyngton, mesne lord. (fn. 301) In 1300 the bishop received a grant of free warren over his demesne lands in Langton and Thorpe Langton. (fn. 302) The extent of his property is not certain. In 1307 the bishop's lands were declared forfeit, (fn. 303) but in 1309 when Thomas de Cailli, heir of Robert de Tateshall, was given seisin, the bishop was declared to be holding ¼ knight's fee in Thorpe Langton. (fn. 304) On his death the bishop was holding only 3 a. there. His heir was Edmund Peverel, (fn. 305) but the bishop's connexion with the Peverel family has not been established. (fn. 306)." END OF QUOTE

I presume that "Richard de Pydyngton" mentioned above is the same person as "Richard Peverel of Great Oakley (?Northants) son of William Peverel of Piddington" mentioned in the charter above published by Reedy. If correct, this would suggest Bishop Walter de Langton (died 1321) and his father, Simon Peverel (living 1292), of Ashley and Langton, are closely connected to Ralph Peverel, of Ashley and Langton, who I also presume is the individual living in 1279.

The author of VCH Leicester states in footnote 306 that Bishop Walter de Langton "may have been brother to Alice Peverel: Farrer, Honors and Knights' Fees, ii. 335." The author appears to be suggesting that the bishop was near related to Alice, wife of Sir Robert Peverel, whereas it is now a proven fact that Bishop Langton and Sir Robert Peverel were full brothers and both sons of Simon Peverel. Alice Peverel was merely the Bishop's sister-in-law.

If you descend from Sir Robert Peverel (as I'm sure many of you do), I'd very much appreciate it if you would post your line(s) of descent from him down to about 1600 here on the newsgroup. Thanks!

[celticp...@gmail.com]

Dear Greg ~

Thanks so much for posting this information. Much appreciated.

DR

[wjhonson]

What source are you using to show that that Margery Constable who married John St Quintin, was the daughter of Joan Ingleby?

[celticp...@gmail.com]

Dear Newsgroup ~

I mentioned yesterday that VCH Leicester 5 (1964): 193-213 shows that Walter de Langton, Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, was the successor to a certain Ralph Peverel as to lands in West Langton (in Church Langton), Leicestershire by grant of Richard de Pydyngton.

The historian Jill Hughes has shown that Bishop Langton's father, Simon Peverel, resided at Ashley, Northamptonshire and Langton, Leicestershire. As such, I have theorized that Richard de Pydyngton mentioned above is the same person as "Richard Peverel of Great Oakley (?Northants) son of William Peverel of Piddington (?Northants)" who by undated charter conveyed to Ralph Basset of Weldon half his rights "within and without the vills of Ashley and Thorpe Langton and in any other place which he had inherited from Ralph Peverel of Ashley."

Since my post yesterday, I've located two fines which involve these same people and lands. The abstracts of the fines are taken from Chris Philips' medieval genealogy website at the following weblink:

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html.

In the first fine dated 1290, the same Richard de Pydinton conveys a messuage and lands in Ashley, Northamptonshire to Walter de Langton, who was evidently the future Bishop. In the second fine below dated 1320, a certain Ives de Pydinton quitclaims to Bishop Langton the manors of Ashley, Northamptonshire and West Langton (in Church Langton), Leicestershire for 100 pounds sterling.

I presume that Ives de Pydinton, living in 1320, is the heir of Richard de Pydington, living in 1290. I also presume that Richard de Pydington is the same person as "Richard Peverel of Great Oakley (?Northants) son of William Peverel of Piddington (?Northants)," who was the heir of Ralph Peverel, who held lands in Ashley and Langton.

It remains to be seen how Bishop Langton's father, Simon Peverel (living 1292), might have been related to Ralph Peverel (living 1279), but the connection must surely have been close.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

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1. CP 25/1/175/56, number 274.
County: Northamptonshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: Two weeks from St John the Baptist, 18 Edward I [8 July 1290].
Parties: Walter de Langeton', querent, and Richard de Pydinton', deforciant.
Property: 1 messuage, 1 mill, 2 carucates of land, 16 acres of meadow, 15 acres of wood, 102 shillings of rent in Asshele and the advowson of a moiety of the church of the same vill.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Richard has acknowledged the tenements and advowson to be the right of Walter, and has rendered them to him in the court, to hold to Walter and his heirs, of the chief lords for ever.
Warranty: Warranty by Richard for himself and his heirs.
For this: Walter has granted for himself and his heirs that they shall henceforth render each year to Richard for the life of Richard 10 pounds at 2 terms, to wit, a moiety at the feast of St Michael and the other moiety at Easter. And after the decease of Richard, Walter and his heirs shall be quit of the payment of the 10 pounds a year for ever.
Note: [Endorsed: And Ralph Basset of Weledon' puts in his claim.]

Persons: Walter de Langton, Richard de Piddington, Ralph Basset
Places: Ashley, Great Weldon

2. CP 25/1/286/31, number 186.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Northamptonshire. Leicestershire.
Place: York.
Date: The day after the Purification of the Blessed Mary, 13 Edward II [3 February 1320].
Parties: Walter de Langeton', bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, querent, and Ives de Pydinton', deforciant.
Property: The manor of Asshele in the county of Northampton and the manor of Thorp' by Langeton' in the county of Leicester.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Ives has acknowledged the manors to be the right of the bishop, and has remised and quitclaimed them from himself and his heirs to the bishop and his heirs for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: The bishop has given him 100 pounds sterling.

Persons: Walter de Langton, bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, Ives de Piddington
Places: Ashley, Thorpe Langton (in Church Langton)

[John Higgins]

Check Clay's edition of Dugdale's 1664-65 visitation of Yorkshire, vol. 2, p. 290. Clay's work was also serialized in "The Genealogist" (new series) and the pertinent pedigree appears in vol. 20 p. 129.

What source are you using that indicates that she is NOT the daughter of Joan Ingleby? Perhaps you have an error in your data...??

[gdco...@gmail.com]

Will,

Clay's Dugdale as cited by John is my source.

Greg

[Michael Cayley]

This is my own line of descent, as I currently believe it to be, via the St Quintins, up to the mid 17th century which is slightly later than you are seeking, Douglas.

1.Sir Robert Peverel, Knt = Alice
2.Joan Peverel = Sir John d'Engaine Knt.,

3. Elizabeth d'Engaine = Sir Laurence Pabenham, Knt.
4. Katherine Pabenham = Sir Thomas Aylesbury, Knt.
5. Eleanor Aylesbury = Sir Humphrey Stafford, Knt.
6. Joyce Stafford = Sir Marmaduke Constable, Knt.
7. Robert Constable = Joan Ingleby
8. Margaret Constable = John St. Quintin,

9. Sir William St. Quintin (will dated 10 Dec 1558) = Dorothy Hastings,
10. Gabriel St Quintin = Dorothy Giriffith
11. George St Quintin alive 1584 = Agnes Creyke
12. Sir William St Quintin buried 1649 = Mary Lacey d. 4 May 1649
13. Dorthy St Quintin d. 1684 = Sir William Cayley, 1st Cayley baronet, bap. 5 May 1610, d. 2 May 1681

[celticp...@gmail.com]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Below is an abstract of a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1356, in which Robert Peverel is again styled "brother" of Walter de Langton, Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield. A brief pedigree of the Peverel family is provided in the lawsuit.

In Easter term 1356 Thomas de Grey, Knt., of Cavendish, and four others were sued by the king for the next presentation to the church of Ashby David, Northamptonshire. Walter de Langton, Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, was seised of the manor and advowson, temp. Edward I, and gave them to Robert Peverel, his brother, and Alice, his wife, and to the heirs of their bodies.

The following pedigree was supplied in the lawsuit:

1. Robert Peverel = Alice = Thomas de Verdon, Knt.
2. Edmund Peverel
3. John Peverel, who was in ward to the king, because the manor was held of the Earl of Pembroke, and the Earl was a minor in ward to the king, and the king had then presented to the church.

John Peverel on coming of age had given the manor to John de Lisle, of Rougemont, and John de Lisle died leaving a son and heir, Robert, who was under age and in ward to the king.

[Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/386, image 3314f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E3/CP40no386/aCP40no386fronts/IMG_3314.htm); see also Wrottesley, Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls (1905): 76].

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Wrottesley, Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls (1905): 58 includes an abstract of a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1347 which provides an extended pedigree of Ralph Peverel (living 1279), of Ashley, Northamptonshire and West Langton (in Church Langton), Leicestershire, whose lands were subequently acquired by Bishop Walter de Langton. Ralph Peverel's ancestry is traced back to a Richard de Danus, living in the reign of King Richard I. The abstract by Wrottesley reads as follows:

Date: Michaelmas term 1347. Northamptonshire. The king sued the Abbot of Pipewell for the next presentation to the church of Ashley, Northamptonshire. The following pedigree was supplied:

1. Richard de Danus, temp. King Richard.
2. Agnes.
3. Peter Peverell, temp. K. John.
4. Agnes.
5. Ralph [Peverel], temp. Edw. I, ob. s.p. The heir of Ralph was his kinsman Richard de Padyngton, who enfeoffed Walter de Langton of the advowson, and Walter enfeoffed Ralph Basset of Weldon, and the king claimed the presentation as guardian of Ralph, son and heir of Ralph Basset.

The original lawsuit is found at the following weblink:

Court of Common Pleas, CP40/352, image 3890f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E3/CP40no352/bCP40no352fronts201to400/IMG_3890.htm)

The lawsuit incorrectly spells the name of "Richard de Pydyngton" as "Padyngton." The lawsuit does not state how Richard de Pydyngton was the heir of Ralph Peverel, nor does it indicate if there was kinship, if any, between Ralph Peverel and Bishop Walter de Langton. I presume, however, that Richard de Danus, living temp. Richard I, is the lineal ancestor of the Peverel-Langton family.

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John Clarence Bedell, Dispute Settlement and the Control of Violence in England, 1272-1330 (1994) includes two references to Sir Robert Peverel. The first item below involves a lawsuit between Nicholas de Segrave and Alice de Armenters his wife and Robert Peverel. The lawsuit was commenced in 1301, but judgment was not made until January 1315. I assume this implies that Sir Robert Peverel was living in January 1315.

pg.82: "Royal justice, as we have noted, was often excruciatingly slow, and litigants with sufficient resources could stretch out a suit for years. Nicholas de Segrave and his wife Alice brought an assize of mort d'ancestor against Robert Peverel in September, 1301, seeking Alice's inheritance from her aunt, but Peverel was able by a variety of means to put off judgment until January, 1315." END OF QUOTE

For further particulars regarding Sir Nicholas de Segrave, Lord Segrave [died 1321] and his wife, Alice de Armenters, please see my book, Royal Ancestry, published in 2013. Bedell does not identify Alice de Armenters' aunt but I assume she is Alice, widow of Alice's uncle, John de Armenters. For a lawsuit dated 1285 between Alice de Armenters and her 1st husband, Sir Gerard de Lisle, and Alice, widow of her uncle John de Armenters, then wife of Thomas Malekake, see Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/622, image 693d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no622/bJUST1no622dorses/IMG_0693.htm); Brand Earliest English Law Reports 4 (Selden Soc. 123) (2006): 264–268 [JUST 1/622, m. 31d.].

In an earlier post, I stated that the historian Alice Beardwood indicated that Sir Robert Peverel was arraigned for murder in 1307. This is evidently the same murder charge discussed by Bedell below. If correct, then it seems that Sir Robert Peverel and Bishop Langton had a third brother named John.

John Clarence Bedell, Dispute Settlement and the Control of Violence in England, 1272-1330 (1994): 155:

"Accusations of homicide involving the Peverels and other important families of Northampton: Robert Peverel and his brother John had been charged with killing William Poy and Richard de Ashby. Two separate juries ruled on the case, one in regular gaol delivery and one before a special commission. At goal delivery Robert was acquitted and John outlawed; before the commission both were convicted. These records do not say what eventually happened, but friends of Poy and Ashby may not have been satisfied, because a few years later an approver said that twelve men paid him ten marks to kill Robert Peverel. All were acquitted......." END OF QUOTE.

There are two additional records which refer to the legal proceedings regarding these murders. The first item is found in Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1307–1313 (1894): 42:

"Date: 1308. Jan. 15. The like to Peter Malorre, William Buttevileyn and John Luvel of Snotescumbe, touching the deaths by violence of William Poy and Richard de Essheby, skinner, at Northampton." END OF QUOTE.

The 2nd item relating to the murders of William Poy and Richard de Assheby is found in the online Discovery catalogue. Robert Peverel, but not his brother, John, is mentioned in this item.

"Reference: JUST 3/51/1
Description:
County: Northants Justices, Gaols, Nature: Henry Spigurnel; Northampton castle and town, Peterborough; Roll.

Note: mm or rots: 13 Roll 51/1 includes at m. 7 the special delivery of Northampton town gaol of Robert Peverel under commission dated 2 Feb. 1312 (not in C.P.R.) and at m. 8 a special oyer and terminer about the deaths of William Poy and Richard de Assheby o f Northampton under commission dated 15 Jan. 1308: C.P.R. 1307-13, 42.
Date: 32 Edw. I & 2-6, 8-10, 12-13 Edw. II (1304, 1308-1310, 1312-1316, 1318, 1320)." END OF QUOTE.

Alice Beardwood has stated that Sir Robert Peverel was in the Northampton castle jail in 1310, "when he was brought to testify in a case." This must be a reference to the "special delivery of Northampton town gaol of Robert Peverel under commission dated 2 Feb. 1312" which is mentioned in the above record.

Bedell states that some years after 1307, the friends of the two murder victims, Poy and Assheby, paid ten marks for someone to murder Robert Peverel. If so, this would appear to confirm Beardwood's statement that Sir Robert Peverel was murdered at Castle Ashby, Northamptonshire by 1317. I have no particulars regarding Sir Robert Peverel's murder but I assume it took place after January 1315, when judgment was rendered in the lawsuit between him and Nicholas and Alice de Segrave.

Do you descend from Sir Robert Peverel? If so, I'd very much appreciate seeing your line(s) of descent from him down to about 1600.

[wjhonson]

No need to wave your hands in the air, the book is online and has been for many years.

https://archive.org/details/dugdalesvisitati2dugd/page/290

[wjhonson]

It is not chronologically possible for Joan to be her mother. The Vis York was written down two *hundred* years after this supposed marriage.

William St Quentin of Harpham, co York; Knt
was born already *by* 1495

He cannot be the *grandson* of a man born in 1478

[John Higgins]

The surname is St. Quintin, not St. Quentin. What is your source for these statements? Clay disagrees with both of them - see Clay 3:288 for the first and Clay 2:290 for the second.

[cmw1...@gmail.com]

Audrey Barlow Almy’s Descent From Sir Robert Peverel

1. Sir Robert Peverel (living 1312, possibly murdered in 1317), of Ashby David (in Castle Ashby), Brington, Chadstone, and Church Brampton, Northamptonshire, m. Alice ---. Their daughter:
2. Joan Peverel (living, 1358); m. circa 12 Nov 1318., Sir John Engaine, Knt., 2nd Baron Engaine, of Laxton, Northamptonshire, and Colne Engaine, Essex (b. 30 May 1302; d. 16 Feb 1357/8). Their daughter:
3. Elizabeth Engaine (b. circa 1341); m. Sir Lawrence Pabenham, Knt. (b. 1334; d. 1399), of Pabenham, Bedfordshire. Their daughter:
4. Katherine Pabenham (b. 1372; d. 17 Jun 1436) m. (as his second wife) Sir Thomas Aylesbury, of Milton Keynes, Buckinghamshire (died 1418). Their daughter:
5. Eleanor Aylesbury (born circa 1406); married by license dated 2 Jan 1423/4, Sir Humphrey Stafford, Knt., of Grafton, Worcestershire, etc., (born 1400; died 7 Jun 1450). Their son:
6. Humphrey Stafford, Esq., of Grafton, Worcestershire, (born circa 1426–7; died 8 Jul 1486); married after 1462 Katherine Fray (born circa 1447), 2nd daughter and co-heiress of Sir John Fray, Knt., Chief Baron of the Exchequer, by Agnes, daughter of John Danvers. Their son:
7. Sir Humphrey Stafford, Knt., of Cotered and Rushden, Hertfordshire, (born 1 May 1478; died 22 Sep 1545); married (1st) after 1490 Margaret Fogge, daughter of Sir John Fogge, Knt., of Ashford, Kent, by his second wife, Alice, daughter of William Haute, Esquire. Their son:
8. Sir Humphrey Stafford, Knt., of Blatherwycke, Northamptonshire (died 1558); married 1526, Margaret Tame, daughter of Sir Edmund Tame, Knt., of Fairford, Gloucestershire, by his 1st wife, Agnes, daughter of John Greville, Esquire. Their daughter:
9. Eleanor Stafford, married (1st) Anthony Cope, Esq., of Adstone, Northamptonshire. They had no issue. She married (as her second husband) before 1568 Thomas Barlow (or Barlowe), of Huncote, Leicestershire. Their son:
10. Stafford Barlow, Gentleman, of Narborough and Lutterworth, Leicestershire (born circa 1578; aged 62 in 1640). The name of his wife is unknown. He was deposed in a 1640 case heard in the Exchequer between John Waybred, clerk, and Sir William Faunt. His daughter:
11. Audrey Barlow, born circa 1600–1603 (aged 26 in 1626, aged 32 in 1635); married by license dated 17 Jul 1626 William Almy, Gentleman, of South Kilworth, Leicestershire.



Charles Ward

[celticp...@gmail.com]

Dear Newsgroup ~

I've located the record which proves that Sir Robert Peverel, brother of Bishop Walter de Langton, was murdered at Ashby David (in Castle Ashby), Northamptonshire. However, the record is dated 1318, not "by 1317" as stated by Beardwood. I've copied the entry below. The item is in agreement with Bedell's statement which I posted earlier today that a few years after 1308, an "approver said that twelve men paid him ten marks to kill Robert Peverel." This basically confirms that Sir Robert Peverel and his brother John are the ones who were charged for the murders of William Poy and Richard de Assheby at Northampton in 1308, and, that some years later, Robert Peverel was killed at Ashby David (in Castle Ashby), Northamptonshire out of revenge.

Source: Cal. of Patent Rolls, 1317–1321 (1903): 176.

Date: 1318. No month or day given.

"Commission to Robert de Madd[ingley], John de Longeville, and John Wylughby to deliver the gaol of the castle of Northampton of Richard le Wilde of Chaddeston, Thomas Lyty, John son of Hugh, William Jordan, William Minnissone, Ralph son of Hugh, John Freeman of Asshebidavid [Ashby David], John Oliver, Thomas le Hunte, Thomas Breton, Roger Breton and Richard le Hunte, prisoners for the death of Robert Peverel at Asshebidavid [Ashby David], co. Northampton." END OF QUOTE.

The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=qA0KAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA176

Interestingly, I see there is also a reference to Sir Robert Peverel's brother, John Peverel, of Langton, Leicestershire, in the same volume of Patent Rolls in connection with the murder of Richard de Assheby:

Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1317–1321 (1903): 334.

Date: 1319. 21 May.

"Pardon to John Peverel of Langeton of his outlawry for non-appearance before Peter Malore and William Botevileyn, late justices of oyer and terminer to enquire into the death of Richard de Assheby at Northampton, as appears by the record of the sheriff and coroners of the country of Northampton." END OF QUOTE.

The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=qA0KAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA334

John Peverel above was being pardoned for failing to appear before the justices back in 1308, a full 11 years previously. John Peverel was being pardoned for non-appearance, not for the actual murders of Poy and Assheby.

I'm relying on Bedell's statement that John Peverel, of Langton, Leicestershire is identified as brother of Sir Robert Peverel in the two jury proceedings which he examined. Assuming Bedell is correct, then John Peverel, of Langton, would be an all new brother for Sir Robert Peverel and Bishop Walter de Langton. The jury records are presumably those catalogued as JUST 3/51/1 at the National Archives.

[gdco...@gmail.com]

Michael,

Per his IPM, George St. Quintin (you show as living 1584) died 4 Dec 1612. His son and heir, William, was 33.

Images of the IPM are here. http://www.gdcooke.org/Browseable/George%20St.%20Quintin/

A volunteer on this list was kind enough to provide a translation.

Greg

[Michael Cayley]

Hi Greg - many thanks for that. Years ago I visited the vault in Harpham church, Yorkshire where some of the St Quintins were buried. Michael

[gdco...@gmail.com]

Will,

You may have a wrong birthdate for William St. Quintin. He was 1 1/2 at his father's (John St. Quintin) IPM, which was 14 Aug 1516. See Clay's Dugdale, 3:188.

I can see that John St. Quintin would have to be born by 1495, but not William.

And which of William's grandparents was born c1478? I don't have that date in my database for anyone in William's ancestry. Is that chronological extrapolation?

Thanks

Greg

[celticp...@gmail.com]

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my last post, I stated that I was relying on Bedell's statement that John Peverel, of Langton, Leicestershire was identified as brother of Sir Robert Peverel in the two jury proceedings which he appears to have examined. I said that assuming that Bedell is correct, then John Peverel, of Langton, would be an all new brother for Sir Robert Peverel and Bishop Walter de Langton.

As it turns out, Bedell is wrong. There is an excel file available online entitled "FINAL C 47 bundle 71 Northamptonshire_NA.xls - The National Archives." This file itemizes a variety of legal actions involving Northamptonshire. It includes a reference to an assize roll regarding the murder of William Poy, kitchen-groom of Sir Thomas de Brotherton, at Northampton by Robert Peverel and the murder of Richard de Essheby by John Peverel of Langton and William de Preston, servants of Robert Peverel.

As we can see, John Peverel of Langton is here called servant, not brother, of Robert Peverel. Unless Bedell found another record which says otherwise, I must assume that John Peverel is not the brother of Sir Robert Peverel as he has alleged.

I've copied below the citation as I found it in the Excel file.

Reference:
Sort: 180, Series: C 47, Bundle: 71, File: 4, Iter: 164

Date of wr[it]: 3 Edward II [1309-1310]
Date of ret[urn]: 1 Edward II [1307-1308]
Assize Roll:
Murder of William Poy, kitchen-groom of Sir Thomas de Brotherton, by Robert Peverel at Northampton, and of Richard de Essheby by John Peverel of Langton and William de Preston, servants of Robert Peverel.

Another reference: C File 260 Bundle 20 Item 30A, Image 2619

[John Higgins]

Greg, thanks for pointing out that I provided the wrong page number for vol. 3 of Clay's Dugdale. As you note, the page should be 188, not 288.

The grandparent in question is presumably Sir Robert Constable of Flamborough. Clay's Dugdale 2:290 says he was born "circa 1478" not exactly that year, and his ODNB bio says "probably 1478" with a question mark. His birth date (and his father's as well) are clearly non-contemporary estimates and should be used with care. They both could well be earlier than stated - particularly given other dates in Sir Robert's history.

[Hans Vogels]

Op zondag 3 februari 2019 01:18:26 UTC+1 schreef celticp...@gmail.com:

Bastard brother perhaps?

[gdco...@gmail.com]

Will & John,

It's also perhaps worth noting that a more contemporary notice of the St. Quintin-Constable marriage is in Glover's Visitations of 1584 & 1612 (p.162), attested by George & William St. Quintin, 1st & 2nd gr-grandsons of the happy couple :-)

Greg