Are Odingselles descended from Odingselles?
Tim Powys-Lybbe
d'Odingsells and Ela FitzRobert (or filia Walter?), Vol VI pp. 144-5 and
Vol III, p. 313. Both of them were alive around 1250. William
d'Odingselles was of Maxstock and Solihull, Warks.
Much the same time there were some Odingselles who inherited half of th
Limesi barony of Cavendish, Suffolk, see Sanders' Baronies p. 30 and
Keats-Rohan's Domesday Descendants, p. 548. Hugh de Odingselles, d.
1239, m. Basilia de Limesy. Sanders goes on to say that this Hugh de
Odingselles was the father of Gerard, who was the father of Hugh who had
John d. 1336.
Vernon James Watney is his four volumes on the Wallop family (a useful
finding aid but with NO references and not to be relied on) links these
two Odingselles families together, Vol 3 p. 596, but with a genealogy
that flatly contradicts the Sanders / Keats-Rohan account. Watney
starts by having Basilia marry a Gerard de Odingselles; charitably he
could be continuing via a younger son of the real Hugh de Odingselles,
which would indeed give a different line.
Has anyone got any evidence that these two Odingselles families are
connected and, if so, what might it be?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
The...@aol.com
Dear Tim, et al.,
I have a pedigree constructed from Ralph de Limesi, the Domesday
tenant in chief, down through the Odingselles (Odyngselles, Oddingseles &
c.) to the well-known Cavendish family. By my reckoning, this does
connect with the Odingselles of Maxstoke, as indicated. Further, I also
show a connection (via Limesi) to the Lindsays: note the holding in
Bradwell (Oxfordshire) cited in the Testa de Nevill by the cousins Gerard
de Odingselles (#1.1.1.1.3.2) and Gerard de Lindsay (#1.1.1.1.4.1.2).
There is also a link to de Stafford, as supported by the charter of Ralph
de Limesi and held as 'probable' by K.S.B. Keats-Rohan (DD 716 and
DP 334).
Please let me know how this comports with what you have (I believe
my account dovetails with Copinger and Sanders). Also, if anyone else
of the list has relevant comment or criticism, or further documentation,
that would of course be welcome.
Cheers,
John
1 Ralph de Limesi
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1093[1],[2]
of Cavendish, Suffolk
'Radulf de Limeseio', tenant in chief at Domesday Book, 1086
founder of Hertford priory as a cell of St. Albans, together with his wife
'A.' (DP, p. 334)[3]
cf. Sanders, pp. 29-30[2]
Children: Ralph (-ca1129)
Maud (-ca1138)
1.1 Ralph de Limesi
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1129[1],[2]
of Cavendish, Suffolk
'Radulfus de Limesia concessit Hadwisiae uxori suae, ut daret
terram Nigelli de Bradewella, quae est ex dota sua': made a gift of
the lands held by Nigel de Bradwell of the dower of
his wife Hawise to the church of St. Mary of Hertford, witnessed by
his son Raerus ("Raerus filius domini") and his nephew Robert de
Stafford ("Robertus de Statford nepos domini") [Dugdale, Mon. Angl.-
Carta Radulfi de Limesia, II - cited by Linzee, p. 194[4] ]
cf. DP 334[3]
Spouse: Hawise
Children: Alan (-<1162)
Raerus
1.1.1 Alan de Limesi
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1162[1],[2]
of Cavendish, Suffolk
'Alanus de Limesy', confirmed gift of his father to St. Mary of Hertford
[Dugdale, Mon.Angl. III, cited by Linzee p. 194[4] ]
Children: Gerard (-<1185)
1.1.1.1 Gerard de Limesi
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1185[1],[2]
of Cavendish, Suffolk
'son of Alan de Limesy, lord of Cavendish,..' (DD, p. 548)[1]
re: his wife:
' Amicia ', named in grant by Gerard de Limesi to St. Mary of Hertford
[Linzee p. 194[4] ]
Spouse: Amicia de Bidun
Children: John (-1193)
Alan
Basilia
Eleanor
1.1.1.1.1 John de Limesi
----------------------------------------
Death: 1193, d.s.p.[1]
of Cavendish, Suffolk
'Johannis filii mei', named in grant by his father Gerard de Limesi to
St. Mary of Hertford [Linzee p. 194[4] ]
Spouse: Alice de Harcourt
Death: aft Aug 1212[5]
Father: Robert de Harcourt (-ca1206)
Mother: Isabel de Camville
1.1.1.1.2 Alan de Limesi
----------------------------------------
'Alano de Limeisi, fratre meo', witness to grant and confirmation by
brother John de Limesi to St. Mary of Hertford [Dugdale, Mon. Angl. V,
cited in Linzee p. 197[4] ]
1.1.1.1.3 Basilia de Limesi
----------------------------------------
eldest daughter and coheiress of her brother John
her inheritance included a moiety of the barony of Limesi, with manors in
Suffolk including Overhall in Cavendish [Copinger I:59,
sub _ Cavendish _ ][6] and Bradwell, co. Oxon[4]
Spouse: Hugh de Oddingseles
Death: 1238[6],[2]
Children: Hugh (-<1267)
Gerard (-1267)
William
1.1.1.1.3.1 Hugh de Oddingseles
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1267, d.s.p., probably d.v.p.[6],[2]
shown by Copinger as 'of Overhall in Cavendish, Suffolk'[6]
1.1.1.1.3.2 Gerard de Oddingseles
----------------------------------------
Death: 1267[2]
of Cavendish, Suffolk
" Oxon'. Gerardus de Oddingeseles & Gerardus de
Lindesy ten' duo feoda mil' in Bradewell in capite Rege."
[Linzee p. 276, cites Testa de Nevill, Oxfordshire (p. 102)[4] ]
" Oxon'. Hundredum de Bampton, Bradewell. Gerardus
de Oddingeseles & Gerardus de Lyndesy ten' duo feod' mil
in eadem in capite de R. " [Linzee p. 276, cites Testa de
Nevill, Oxfordshire (p. 103)[4] ]
his holdings included Overhall in Cavendish, Suffolk[6]
Children: Hugh (-1305)
1.1.1.1.3.2.1 Hugh de Oddingseles
----------------------------------------
Death: 1305[2]
of Cavendish, Suffolk
Children: John (-1336)
1.1.1.1.3.2.1.1 John de Oddingseles
----------------------------------------
Death: 1336[2]
of Cavendish, Suffolk
the account in Copinger re: 'John Odingseles' seems to indicate
death ca. 1353:
" of Overhall in Cavendish, Suffolk.
succeeded Hugh de Odyngseles at Overhall, 1305
[evidently a descendant of Hugh de Odyngseles, who
held Overhall and d. in possession in 1239][6]
' in 1315 had licence to enfeoff Thomas de Wassingle of the
manor held in chief and the latter was empowered to regrant
to him and Emma his wife, and his heirs.' [Copinger I:60, citing Pat.
Rolls, 9 Edw. II pt. ii. 21; I.Q.D., 9 Edw. II. 90, II Edw. II. 74] "[6]
Spouse: Emma[2]
Children: Alice (-<1380)
1.1.1.1.3.2.1.1.1 Alice de Odingseles
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1380[6]
Burial: the church of Cavendish, Suffolk[7]
predeceased her husband[6]
ref. Copinger, Manors of Suffolk [III:68, Impey or Impsey Hall, and
Kensings or 'Kemsynge'; III:69, Collingham Hall[6]];
Genealogics, cites The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles,
Prince of Wales Edinburgh, 1977., Gerald Paget, Reference:
Q 116481[8]
re: her husband:
Sir John de Cavendish of Overhall, Impey, Collingham Hall and Kemsynge,
Suffolk
also held lands in Pentlowe, Fakenham Aspes and Saxham [per his will][6]
Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench, 1365[7]
Chancellor of the University of Cambridge
commissioned in 1381 to suppress the rebellion of Wat Tyler
taken prisoner in Suffolk en route to York, and beheaded at Bury St.
Edmunds, June 1381
will dated 1380, proved 26 Aug 1381 [Copinger I:60-61 citing
Inq.p.m. 5 Ric. II. 14][6],[7]
ref. Copinger, Manors of Suffolk [III:68, Impey or Impsey Hall, and
Kensings or 'Kemsynge'; III:69, Collingham Hall[6]];
Genealogics, cites The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles,
Prince of Wales Edinburgh, 1977., Gerald Paget, Reference: Q
116481[8]
Spouse: Sir John de Cavendish
Death: Jun 1381, Bury St. Edmunds [murdered by mob][6]
Children: Sir Andrew (-1395)
Sir John
1.1.1.1.3.2.1.1.1.1 Sir Andrew Cavendish
----------------------------------------
Death: 1395[6],[6]
of Overhall, Impey, Collingham Hall and Kemsynge in Cavendish, Suffolk
M.P. for Suffolk, 1371
High Sheriff of Suffolk and Norfolk, 1386[6]
Spouse: Rose
Children: William (-1433)
Robert (-1438)
Margaret
1.1.1.1.3.2.1.1.1.1.1 William Cavendish
----------------------------------------
Death: 1433[6]
of Overhall and Collingham Hall in Cavendish, Suffolk
'conveyed the reversion [of the manor of Overhall] by fine to his uncle
William Cavendish and son and heir of John Cavendish the 2nd son of the
Chief Justice', ca. 1412 [Copinger I: 61][6]
cf. Copinger, Manors of Suffolk[6];
Genealogics, cites The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles,
Prince of Wales Edinburgh, 1977., Gerald Paget, Reference: P 58241[8]
Spouse: Joan Staverton
Children: Thomas (-1477)
1.1.1.1.3.2.1.1.1.1.1.1 Thomas Cavendish
----------------------------------------
Death: 1477[6]
of Overhall in Cavendish, Suffolk
'Thomas Cavendish mortgaged the manor to John Smyth the elder and John
Smyth the younger' [Copinger I:61][6]
cf. Copinger, Manors of Suffolk[6];
Genealogics, cites The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles,
Prince of Wales Edinburgh, 1977., Gerald Paget, Reference: O 29121[8]
Spouse: Catherine Scudamore[6]
Death: 15 Sep 1489[8]
Children: Thomas (-1524)
1.1.1.1.3.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Thomas Cavendish
----------------------------------------
Death: 1524[6]
of Overhall in Cavendish, co. Suffolk
Clerk of the Pipe in the Exchequer[9],[6]
'there is a grant by the King in 1483 on the Patent Rolls to Nicholas
Lathell and Richard Williams of the custody [of Thomas Cavendish, a minor]
rending to the King 10 marks yearly.'[Copinger I:61]
cf. Copinger, Manors of Suffolk[6];
Genealogics, cites The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles,
Prince of Wales Edinburgh, 1977., Gerald Paget, Reference: N 14561[8]
Spouse: Alice Smith
Death: 12 Nov 1515[8]
Father: John Smith
Children: George (-ca1561)
William (ca1505-1557)
1.1.1.1.3.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 George Cavendish
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1561[6]
of Overhall in Cavendish, Suffolk
' This is the well-known Gentleman Usher of Cardinal Wolsey and his
faithful friend and historian' [Copinger I:61][6]
1.1.1.1.3.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2a William Cavendish*
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1505
Death: 25 Oct 1557[9]
Burial: Allhallows, co. Derby[10]
2nd son
Knight, of Northaw, co. Hertford and Chatsworth, co. Derby
Treasurer of the Chamber to King Henry VIII[9]
as to his tenure of the lands of Tutbury priory:
' In 1552 the Crown granted the site of the priory and its lands in
Tutbury to Sir William Cavendish.[22] Of a Suffolk family, he was a royal
official who had acquired Derbyshire interests following his marriage to
the heiress Elizabeth Hardwick ('Bess of Hardwick'), widow of Robert
Barlow.[23] He demolished the domestic buildings and most (maxima pars)
of the church and built himself a large house on the priory site on the
north side of the church.[24] He was succeeded in 1557 by his son
Henry,...'[11]
second husband of Elizabeth Hardwick
Spouse: Elizabeth Hardwick
Birth: ca 1521[9]
Death: 13 Feb 1607, Hardwick Hall, co. Derby[9]
Father: John Hardwick (ca1495-1527)
Mother: Elizabeth Leeke
Marr: 20 Aug 1547[9]
Children: Henry Cavendish, esq., of Tutbury (1550-1616)
William Cavendish, Earl of Devonshire(ca1552-1625)
Elizabeth, m. Charles Stuart, Earl of Lennox
Sir Charles Cavendish, Knt., of Welbeck Abbey, co. Notts.(-1617)
Mary, m. Gilbert Talbot, Earl of Shrewsbury
Frances, m. Henry Pierrepont, Knt. of Holme Pierrepont, co. Notts.
Other Spouses Margaret Bostock
1.1.1.1.3.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2b William Cavendish* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Margaret Bostock
Death: 9 Jun 1540[9]
Children: Anne, m. Henry Baynton, of Temple Rockley in Preshute
1.1.1.1.3.3 William de Oddingseles
----------------------------------------
of Maxstoke and Solihull, co.Warwick[12]
of Overhall in Cavendish, Suffolk[6] (evidently held of his elder brother
Gerard -cf. Sanders, barony of Cavendish, pp. 29-30[2])
Spouse: Joan[12]
Children: William (ca1235-1295)
1.1.1.1.3.3.1 William de Oddingseles
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1235[13]
Death: 19 Apr 1295[13]
of Maxstoke[5], Solihull, Budbrooke, and Olton (in Sheldon), co. Warwick,
Pirton, co. Herts., Oxborough, Norfolk, Weeford, co. Staffs. and
Newton[14] and Overhall (in Cavendish), Suffolk[6]
Justiciar of Ireland[12]
had grant from King Edward I of the castle of Dunamon, Connaught[13]
Spouse: Ela fitz Walter
Father: Walter fitz Robert (ca1219-<1258)
Mother: Ida Longespee (->1261)
Children: Ida (ca1270->1321)
Alice
Ela
Edmund (-<1310)
Margaret (ca1277-)
1.1.1.1.4 Eleanor de Limesi
----------------------------------------
youngest daughter and coheiress of her brother John
her inheritance included a moiety of the barony of Limesi[6], including
Bradwell, co. Oxon[4]
Spouse: William de Lindsay
Death: ca 1200[15]
Father: Walter de Lindsay
Children: David (-<1219)
William
1.1.1.1.4.1 David de Lindsay
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1219[2]
Occ: laird of Luffness
of Luffness
'Dauid nepote meo', witness to a charter of uncle John de Limesi of a gift
and confirmation to St. Mary of Hertford [Dugdale, Mon. Angl. V, cited in
Linzee p. 168[4] ]
cf. Sanders, p. 30[2]
identified in Sanders as father of William (brother, per SP III:6)[2]
Spouse: Marjory
Children: David (-1241)
Gerard (-1249)
Walter
William
Alicia
1.1.1.1.4.1.1 David de Lindsay
----------------------------------------
Death: 1241, d.s.p.[15]
Occ: laird of Luffness
laird of Luffness and Crawford
'found by inquisition heir to half the Limesi fee in England.'
(SP III:7)[15]
1.1.1.1.4.1.2 Gerard de Lindsay
----------------------------------------
Death: 1249, d.s.p.[15]
Occ: laird of Luffness
laird of Luffness
did homage for his brother's lands in England, 14 May 1241[15]
" Oxon'. Gerardus de Oddingeseles & Gerardus de
Lindesy ten' duo feoda mil' in Bradewell in capite Rege."
[Linzee p. 276, cites Testa de Nevill, Oxfordshire (p. 102)[4] ]
" Oxon'. Hundredum de Bampton, Bradewell. Gerardus
de Oddingeseles & Gerardus de Lyndesy ten' duo feod' mil
in eadem in capite de R. " [Linzee p. 276, cites Testa de
Nevill, Oxfordshire (p. 103)[4] ]
1.1.1.1.4.1.3 Walter de Lindsay
----------------------------------------
1.1.1.1.4.1.4 William de Lindsay
----------------------------------------
1.1.1.1.4.1.5 Alicia de Lindsay
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Sir Henry de Pinkeny
Children: Henry de Pinkeny
1.1.1.1.4.2 William de Lindsay
----------------------------------------
Occ: laird of Luffness
of Luffness
younger son
seneschal to the Steward of Scotland (SP III:7-8)[15]
(cf. Sanders, English Baronies[2]; also Scots Peerage[15])
Children: Sir David de Lindsay(->1249) [ancestor of Earls of Crawford]
William
1.1.2 Raerus de Limesi
----------------------------------------
'Raerus filius Radulfi de Limesi' [DD 549[1]]
1.2 Maud[16]
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1138[1]
Burial: Stone priory[1]
'Matildis de Stafford', DD 716
'..probably daughter of Ralph I de Limesy.' [DD 716[1]; also DP 334[3]]
Spouse: Nicholas de Stafford[5]
Death: aft 1137[5]
Father: Robert de Stafford (-ca1088)
Children: Robert (->1177)
1.2.1 Robert de Stafford
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1177[5],[1]
Burial: Stone priory[16]
Occ: baron of Stafford
baron of Stafford
"Robertus de Statford, nepos domini", 'nepos' of Ralph (II) de Limesi,
ca. 1125-30 [ DD 717[1] citing Mon. Ang. ii, 301- 'Carta Radulphi de
Limesia' - cf. also Linzee, 194 ]
gave the chapel of Stafford to Stone priory
Sheriff of Staffordshire, 1155-60
recorded in the Pipe Rolls, 10 Hen II and 11 Hen II[1]
Spouse: Avice[5]
Children: Melisende(-<1225), m. Hervey Bagot [ancestors of Earls of
Stafford]
Robert (-dsp ca1193)
Nicholas (-dsp <1193)
1. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville' Jul 2,
2002, p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday Descendants:
A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166:
Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
2. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and Descent,
1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
3. Katherine S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday People," The Boydell Press,
1999, Vol. I: A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English Documents
1066-1166, cites Robert de Torigni, Interpolations to Gesta Normannorum
Ducum of Guillaume of Jumieges, (ed. van Houts, ii, 270) and
identification of Gilbert fitzRichard as uncle of Meen, seigneur de
Fougeres (Rouleau Mortuaire du B. Vital abbe de Savigni, edition
phototypique par L. Delisle Paris (1909), titre no. 182).
4. John William Linzee, "The Lindeseie and Limesi families of Great
Britain," Boston, Mass.: privately published, 1917, .pdf image files
provided by Genealogy.com www.genealogy.com
5. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the
United Kingdom.
6. W. A. Copinger, M.A., LL.D., F.S.A., "The Manors of Suffolk: Notes on
Their History and Devolution," London: T. F. Unwin, 1905-1911, 7 Vols.
7. "Testamenta Vetusta," Nicholas Harris Nicolas, Esq., 2 Vols. London:
Nichols & Son, Parliament Street, 1826, [title con't]: Being
Illustrations From Wills, wills of John, Lord Montagu (d. 1390) and
others extracted by Timothy Powys-Lybbe.
8. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas, www.genealogics.com, cites
Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev
Schwennicke, Editor, [ES], and other sources
9. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists,"
Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society, 1999, (2nd edition,
1999).
10. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists,"
Baltimore: the Genealogical Pub. Company, 1st ed.
11. Philip Riden, Consultant Editor, "Victoria County History of
Staffordshire," *draft version, Tutbury,
http://www.englandpast.net/staffs_draft/index.html
12. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215," Baltimore:
Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David Faris).
13. Douglas Richardson, "Oddingseles," September 8, 2002, paper copy:
library of John Ravilious, text, line of descent from Ela FitzWalter,
daughter of Walter fitz Robert of Woodham Walter, and wife of William
de Oddingseles, of Solihull, co. Warwick (d. 19 Apr 1295).
14. Douglas Richardson, "FitzWalter," September 8, 2002, paper copy:
library of John Ravilious, text, line of descent from Ida Longespee,
daughter of William Longespee, Knt. [or his father William, Earl of
Salisbury] and her husband Walter fitz Robert, of Woodham Walter,
Essex & c. (d. before 10 Apr 1258).
15. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," 1904-1914
16. Pedigree of Stafford, Earls of Stafford
Descent from Robert de Stafford, comp. by Robert O'Connor
roco...@es.co.nz
* John P. Ravilious
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Monday, 22 November, 2004
>
>
> Dear Tim, et al.,
>
> I have a pedigree constructed from Ralph de Limesi, the Domesday
> tenant in chief, down through the Odingselles (Odyngselles, Oddingseles &
> c.) to the well-known Cavendish family. By my reckoning, this does
> connect with the Odingselles of Maxstoke, as indicated. Further, I also
> show a connection (via Limesi) to the Lindsays: note the holding in
> Bradwell (Oxfordshire) cited in the Testa de Nevill by the cousins Gerard
> de Odingselles (#1.1.1.1.3.2) and Gerard de Lindsay (#1.1.1.1.4.1.2).
> There is also a link to de Stafford, as supported by the charter of Ralph
> de Limesi and held as 'probable' by K.S.B. Keats-Rohan (DD 716 and
> DP 334).
>
> Please let me know how this comports with what you have (I believe
> my account dovetails with Copinger and Sanders). Also, if anyone else
> of the list has relevant comment or criticism, or further documentation,
> that would of course be welcome.
Many thanks for this stupendous account of Limesi descendants, it is
far more than I would ever have expected in reply to my two questions.
In what follows I still find a conflict between sources on the one hand
and a gap in sources on the other. I am removing all the generations
that are not concerned in this. I am using the same numbers as you to
refer to your sources.
<snip of the ancestry of Basilia on which I find no problem - though
there might yet be one!>
> 1.1.1.1.3 Basilia de Limesi
> ----------------------------------------
>
> eldest daughter and coheiress of her brother John
>
> her inheritance included a moiety of the barony of Limesi, with manors in
> Suffolk including Overhall in Cavendish [Copinger I:59,
> sub _ Cavendish _ ][6] and Bradwell, co. Oxon[4]
>
> Spouse: Hugh de Oddingseles
> Death: 1238[6],[2]
>
> Children: Hugh (-<1267)
> Gerard (-1267)
> William
<Snip of the descendants of Hugh (who dsp) and of Gerard which are not
part of this concern>
>
> 1.1.1.1.3.3 William de Oddingseles
> ----------------------------------------
>
> of Maxstoke and Solihull, co.Warwick[12]
>
> of Overhall in Cavendish, Suffolk[6] (evidently held of his elder brother
> Gerard -cf. Sanders, barony of Cavendish, pp. 29-30[2])
>
> Spouse: Joan[12]
>
> Children: William (ca1235-1295)
I am having problems finding evidence that William was the son of
Basilia de Limesi:
No 12, Weis' Magna Charta Sureties, does not mention Basilia though it
does include, with no reference, William.
No 2, Sanders' Baronies does no mention William, though it does
include, clearly, Basilia.
No 6, Copinger's Manors of Suffolk I do not have. Does this give
evidence for William's descent and for his son William?
>
>
> 1.1.1.1.3.3.1 William de Oddingseles
> ----------------------------------------
> Birth: ca 1235[13]
> Death: 19 Apr 1295[13]
>
> of Maxstoke[5], Solihull, Budbrooke, and Olton (in Sheldon), co. Warwick,
> Pirton, co. Herts., Oxborough, Norfolk, Weeford, co. Staffs. and
> Newton[14] and Overhall (in Cavendish), Suffolk[6]
>
> Justiciar of Ireland[12]
>
> had grant from King Edward I of the castle of Dunamon, Connaught[13]
>
> Spouse: Ela fitz Walter
> Father: Walter fitz Robert (ca1219-<1258)
> Mother: Ida Longespee (->1261)
>
> Children: Ida (ca1270->1321)
> Alice
> Ela
> Edmund (-<1310)
> Margaret (ca1277-)
This william is clearly referenced in many books so there is no
problem. But as yet I have seen no reference, apart from the bald
statement of parentage by Weis, that he was the son of William who was
the son of Basilia. Might this also be evidenced in Copinger?
Moving on to the Lindsays, there is no problem that I know of about
Eleanor's descent from Ralph de Limesi.
>
> 1.1.1.1.4 Eleanor de Limesi
> ----------------------------------------
>
> youngest daughter and coheiress of her brother John
>
> her inheritance included a moiety of the barony of Limesi[6], including
> Bradwell, co. Oxon[4]
>
> Spouse: William de Lindsay
> Death: ca 1200[15]
> Father: Walter de Lindsay
>
> Children: David (-<1219)
> William
However Eleanor's spouse does cause problems. In favour of her marrying
William de Lindsay are:
No 4, Linzee's "Lindsays" which I have not seen.
No 15, Paul's Scots Peerage which cites only Testa de Nevill (which I
don't have either).
Against Eleanor marrying William and instead marrying his son David are:
No 1, Keats-Rohan's Domesday Descendants, p. 548 for Gerard de Limesi.
No 2. Sanders' Baronies, p. 30.
> 1.1.1.1.4.1 David de Lindsay
> ----------------------------------------
> Death: bef 1219[2]
> Occ: laird of Luffness
>
> of Luffness
>
> 'Dauid nepote meo', witness to a charter of uncle John de Limesi of a
> gift and confirmation to St. Mary of Hertford [Dugdale, Mon. Angl. V,
> cited in Linzee p. 168[4] ]
John de Limesi died in 1193 and his sisters and co-heirs, Basilia and
Eleanor were minors then (Sanders p. 30). So it is highly unlikely,
impossible even, that Eleanor would by 1193 have had a son who was old enough
to witness a deed. It looks like Linzee needs re-examining on this.
>
> cf. Sanders, p. 30[2]
>
> identified in Sanders as father of William (brother, per SP III:6)[2]
I can't find this identification in Sanders. David (I)'s son is
identified as David (II).
>
> Spouse: Marjory
>
> Children: David (-1241)
> Gerard (-1249)
> Walter
> William
> Alicia
>
>
> 1.1.1.1.4.1.1 David de Lindsay
> ----------------------------------------
> Death: 1241, d.s.p.[15]
> Occ: laird of Luffness
>
> laird of Luffness and Crawford
>
> 'found by inquisition heir to half the Limesi fee in England.'
> (SP III:7)[15]
This David is David (II) in Sanders and Keats-Rohan.
<Snip of most of the rest of the Lindsays>
> 1.1.1.1.4.2 William de Lindsay
> ----------------------------------------
> Occ: laird of Luffness
>
> of Luffness
> younger son
>
> seneschal to the Steward of Scotland (SP III:7-8)[15]
>
> (cf. Sanders, English Baronies[2]; also Scots Peerage[15])
>
> Children: Sir David de Lindsay(->1249) [ancestor of Earls of Crawford]
> William
This William is included in the genealogy as it is thought that his
mother was Eleanor de Limesi. If, following Sanders and Keats-Rowan,
he was not Eleanor's son, he gets dropped.
I will be interested to hear where Linzee gets his information from. And
it looks like Testa de Nevill might have some good evidence too.
Clagett, Brice
Cavendish descent as presented. I haven't looked at this
for awhile and can't immediately cite sources, but here
it is for what it's worth.
As I understand it, William Cavendish, d. 1433, of St. Thomas
Acon, London, mercer, acquired Cavendish Overhall in 1411/2
from another William Cavendish, the latter William being son of
Sir Andrew, son of Sir John Cavendish the Chief Justice.
Whether William (d. 1433) was also a grandson of the Chief
Justice or belonged to a collateral branch appears to be uncertain.
Second, I know of no proof that the Chief Justice's wife was
Alice de Odingsells. As I understand it, the Chief Justice
acquired Overhall from John de Odingsells (Alice's father or
brother?) in 1358, but this may have been a purchase and doesn't
necessarily prove a relationship.
John Ravilious
Dear Brice,
I hope to have some time a bit later, at which time I will post
the text from Copinger re: Overhall in Cavendish. This should provide
some primary grist for the mill, so that (perhaps) the connections
I've shown can be either proven, invalidated or otherwise classified
as possible.
Meanwhile, my best to you, and to all (Yanks or no) for a safe
and happy Thanksgiving!
Cheers,
John
bcla...@cov.com ("Clagett, Brice") wrote in message news:<B1F75BF666FCFD4F9B3...@cbiexm01dc.cov.com>...