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OT Edward III Descent(s) for Mary Edwards Hold (1854-c.1939), baker's wife
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Brad Verity
Mar 11, 2014, 1:39:07 AM3/11/14
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I want to thank SocGenMed member James Yeowell for sharing his Edward III line(s) of descent with me. It's given me the opportunity to take a break from the ancestry of the Trappes-Lomax spouses, with all of their multiple lines, and focus on a type of descent I don't come across very often, buried as I currently am in the peerages: an Edward III descendant with a single line back to the monarch (in James's case, it's actually two lines back, due to a marriage of first cousins - see below). This line is a fascinating story of how you can start with a 14th-century medieval monarch, and arrive at a late 19th-century London baker's wife.
Mary Edwards was born 9 December 1854 at Southwark, Surrey, and was christened as an adult 11 June 1873 at St Anne Church, South Lambeth, Surrey. She married William Hold (born 4 October 1857 at St Giles in the Fields, London; died 8 April 1937 at St Giles Hospital, Camberwell, Surrey). The son of a baker, William was also a baker for most of his life, listed as a baker journeyman in 1894, and a master baker/confectioner in 1916. By 1887, Mary and her husband had moved to 41a Westmacott Street in Camberwell, Surrey (by then a suburb of greater London), where they lived for forty years, until William's death in 1937. Mary continued living there his widow: she is listed at that address in the London Electoral Registers for 1937 & 1939. James is in the process of trying to determine a date of death for Mary. She does not appear to be indexed as 'Mary Hold' in the England Death Registers - she must've been indexed under an incorrect spelling, or else her death wasn't registered, for whatever reason (outbreak of WWII?). James thinks William and Mary Hold were likely buried at Nunhead Cemetery in Camberwell (where their son Arthur Ernest Hold, James's great-grandfather, is buried). Hopefully they are and the cemetery will have burial dates for the couple.
The twenty-generation line of descent is as follows, with a link to the most recent individual in Leo's database.
Edward III had a son
A1) Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence (1338-1368) m. 1) Elizabeth de Burgh, 4th Countess of Ulster (1332-1363, descended from Edward I), and had
A2) Philippa of Clarence, 5th Countess of Ulster (1355-1377) m. Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March (1352-1381), and had
A3) Lady Elizabeth Mortimer (1371-1417) m. 1) Sir Henry 'Hotspur' Percy (1364-1403), and had
A4) Lady Elizabeth Percy (c.1395-1437) m. 1) John, 7th Lord Clifford (1388-1422, descended from Edward I), and had
A5) Thomas, 8th Lord Clifford (1414-1455) m. Joan Dacre (c.1417-c.1452, descended from Edward I), and had
A6) Maud Clifford (b. c.1436) m. 2) Sir Edmund Sutton, Heir of Dudley (c.1430-1482), and had
A7) Dorothy Dudley (c.1465-1517) m. Richard Wrottesley of Wrottesley Hall (1457-1521), and had
A8) Walter Wrottesley of Wrottesley Hall (d. 1563) m. Isabel Harcourt, and had
A9) Eleanor Wrottesley (d. 1596) m. Richard Lee of Langley (d. 1591, descended from Edward I),* and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00473424&tree=LEO
A10) Katherine Lee (c.1560-1579) m. John Hereford of Sufton Court (1558-1619),** and had
A11) Richard Hereford of Sufton Court (1579-1636) m. 2) Margaret Pershall, and had
A12) Roger Hereford of Sufton Court (c.1612-c.1659) m. Frances Rodd (1611-1689), and had a son A13 & a dau B13 (see below)
A13) James Hereford of Sufton Court (1634-1693) m. 1) Hester Holmes (1637-1676), and had
A14) Anne Hereford (b. 1670) m. her first cousin Rev. Francis Broade of Hereford (see B14 below), and had
A15) Rev. Thomas Broade of Benefield (1692-1753) m. Anne Lodington (1685-1767), and had
A16) Anne Broade (1724-1808) m. her first cousin Thomas Lodington of Westminster (1723-1766), and had
A17) Thomas Lodington of Islington (1761-1848) m. Ann Day (1770-1836), and had
A18) Thomas Edward Lodington (1797-1845) = Mary Ellen --- (d. 1862),*** and had
A19) Beverley Purton Edwards Lodington [later Edwards], illegit. (c.1825-1902) = Buley Gerrard (b. 1824)****, and had
A20) Mary Edwards, illegit. (1854-c.1939) m. William Hold of Camberwell, Surrey, baker, great-great grandparents of James Yeowell
B13) Margery Hereford (b. 1636/7) m. Rev. Thomas Broade of Hereford (d. 1709),***** and had
B14) Rev. Francis Broade of Hereford (1666-1728) m. his first cousin Anne Hereford (see A14 above)
*Douglas Richardson, in Plantagenet Ancestry, both the 2004 edition (p. 484), and the 2011 edition (p. 488), includes Eleanor Wrottesley and Richard Lee of Langley:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=kjme027UeagC&pg=RA1-PA488&lpg=RA1-PA488&dq=eleanor+wrottesley+lee+of+langley&source=bl&ots=quLmHD6bmd&sig=cSp1E5ofJ5Z8ujLjh8VDuOIqLuM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yTceU9GaMcG8oQTXk4L4Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=eleanor%20wrottesley%20lee%20of%20langley&f=false
He doesn't include dates of death for them in either edition. Richard Lee died 27 May, and was buried 2 June 1591 at St Mary Church, Acton Burnell, Shropshire. His widow Eleanor was buried there 15 December 1596:
https://histfam.familysearch.org//getperson.php?personID=I107945&tree=Welsh
**Plantagenet Ancestry has this daughter as "Katherine (wife of John Heyward)", no doubt with the Lee pedigree from the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire as the source, which has "Katherina", daughter of Richard Lee of Langley & Eleanor Wrottesley, as "vxor Joh'is Heyward":
http://archive.org/stream/visitationshrop01britgoog#page/n43/mode/2up
I've found many errors in the 1623 Shropshire Visitation pedigrees, and this appears to be another one. "John Heyward" should instead be "John Hereford". According to the pedigree of Hereford of Sufton Court in Burke's Commoners, John Hereford of Sufton Court (b. 8 September 1558; died 20 October 1619), married 1st, 1578, "Catherine, dau. of Richard Lee, of Langley", by whom he had one child, his son & heir, Richard Hereford of Sufton Court (b. 12 May 1579; d. about 1636):
https://archive.org/stream/genealogicalhera03burk#page/344/mode/2up
The chronology matches well for a younger daughter of Richard Lee of Langley & Eleanor Wrottesley to have married in 1578, considering the marriage of their eldest daughter Dorothy was arranged in 1566. The fact that John Hereford's son by Katherine was given the first name 'Richard', a name not previously used in the Hereford family, also adds weight to the fact that Richard Hereford was a grandson of Richard Lee of Langley.
***It is with Thomas Edward Lodington that the line of descent takes a big slide down the social scale. This unfortunate fellow, the eldest son of a London solicitor, became an ensign in the 53rd Regiment of Foot in 1815, serving in India from 1817 to 1820. Wounded, or perhaps debilitated by cholera, two outbreaks of hitting his regiment during that period, Thomas Edward was removed from active service and placed on half-pay, then taken to court as a debtor in November 1821, where it was "directed that he should pay 25 pounds per annum to his creditors". Thomas Edward had married 16 July 1817 at St George Hanover Square, Westminster, Ann Burrell (born about 1798; died 4 October 1865, London), but the couple seems to have quickly become estranged. By 1819, Thomas Edward had taken up with a woman named Mary Ellen, who was presenting herself as his wife in documents (though any marriage is bigamous, for there is no record of a divorce between Thomas Edward and Ann Burrell). He must have met her outside of England, while serving with his regiment. Their first child was born in June 1820 in Paris, and Thomas and Mary Ellen Lodington, with two infant children, appear on the passenger list of the ship London, which docked in New York in 1823 (a third child was born at sea on the ship). In October 1830 even his half pay was cancelled, and in July 1834, Thomas Edward Lodington was described as "very ill indeed" and "quite a cripple" by two witnesses at his trial, for stealing utensils worth 21 shillings. He'd become a petty thief no doubt because, as the police-constable described, "I went to his house in Bermuda-street, Commercial-road - his wife and family were in great distress". His common law wife was Mary Ellen, and their family was five children, ranging in age from 14 to an infant daughter just a couple months old (who would die the following year). James is attempting to further identify Thomas Edward's common law wife. She was most probably the Ellen Lodington whose death was registered the second quarter of 1862 at St Saviour Southwark.
****Beverley Purton Edwards Lodington, the fourth, and youngest surviving, child of Thomas Edward Lodington, followed in his father's footsteps when it came to marriage. Beverley married 26 September 1848 at Trinity Church, Lambeth, Surrey, Eleanor Sarah Fortye Millis (b. 1832), with whom he had one son who died at birth. Following this, Beverley and his wife Eleanor became estranged and separated. Beverley took up with Buley Gerrard by 1852, with the first of their eight children born 18 August 1853 in London. Beverley dropped his surname Lodington, and assumed the surname of Edwards by 1854. He became a furniture salesman, and rising up from his father's dire circumstances, established himself, his common law wife and their children securely in the London suburb of Camberwell, Surrey, where he died in 1902.
*****Margery Hereford's husband Rev. Thomas Broade was the one who matriculated Brasenose College, Oxford in 1656, was rector of Bromyard, Herefordshire (2nd portion) 1689-1709, and custos of Hereford Cathedral College. Per his M.I. in Hereford Cathedral (the inscription has been worn away, with only a few words decipherable), Rev. Broade and his wife were both buried there. The burials for Hereford Cathedral in this time period have not been published, or indexed in online databases. Luckliy, the Cathedral itself has a database of burials 1685-1813 available reconstructed from burial payments, and James will hopefully have an opportunity to visit Hereford Cathedral this summer and obtain the Broade burial dates:
http://www.herefordcathedral.org/education-research/library-and-archives/a-summary-of-archive-sources
Rev. Thomas Broade's parentage has not yet been established. James has the very persuasive idea that Thomas came from the Broade family of Dunclench, Worcestershire. Unfortunately, The Visitation of Worcestershire 1634 (Harleain Society Vol. 90) was published in 1938, and not available for view online. Neither James nor myself have ready access to this work - if anyone does, and can report on the Broad of Dunclench pedigree, I know James would very much appreciate it.
And there we have it. The line from a 14th-century monarch, to 15th-century baronial families, to a leading county gentry family in the late 15th/early 16th-century (the Wrottesleys), to minor gentry families (the Lees of Langley and the Herefords of Sufton Court), in the late 16th-century, to gentlemen clergymen in the 17th century, to a solid merchant/solicitor class in London in the 18th-century, with a drastic turn down the social scale due to the devastating circumstances of one generation in the 19th-century, to a climb up to the working middle class by the early 20th-century, with a furniture salesman and a baker.
Thomas Lodington of Islington the solicitor and his wife Ann Day (Generation A17 above) had a younger son, William Stewart Lodington of Islington (1802-1888), a clerk in the dividend office of the Bank of England. He married his first cousin Sarah Day (1800-1886), daughter of William Day, governor of Sierra Leone 1803 & 1805. Their third child, John Day Lodington, born 21 February 1825 at Loughton, Essex, emigrated to Australia in the early 1850s, and died 3 March 1882 at Melbourne, buried 6 March 1882 Melbourne General Cemetery. It is estimated that he has over 200 living descendants in Australia today, bringing this particular descent from Edward III to folks throughout the land Down Under. James has information on other emigrant descendants from this line, which I know he'd be happy to share.
Thank you again, James, for bringing to light your very interesting descent.
Cheers, -------Brad
Mary Edwards was born 9 December 1854 at Southwark, Surrey, and was christened as an adult 11 June 1873 at St Anne Church, South Lambeth, Surrey. She married William Hold (born 4 October 1857 at St Giles in the Fields, London; died 8 April 1937 at St Giles Hospital, Camberwell, Surrey). The son of a baker, William was also a baker for most of his life, listed as a baker journeyman in 1894, and a master baker/confectioner in 1916. By 1887, Mary and her husband had moved to 41a Westmacott Street in Camberwell, Surrey (by then a suburb of greater London), where they lived for forty years, until William's death in 1937. Mary continued living there his widow: she is listed at that address in the London Electoral Registers for 1937 & 1939. James is in the process of trying to determine a date of death for Mary. She does not appear to be indexed as 'Mary Hold' in the England Death Registers - she must've been indexed under an incorrect spelling, or else her death wasn't registered, for whatever reason (outbreak of WWII?). James thinks William and Mary Hold were likely buried at Nunhead Cemetery in Camberwell (where their son Arthur Ernest Hold, James's great-grandfather, is buried). Hopefully they are and the cemetery will have burial dates for the couple.
The twenty-generation line of descent is as follows, with a link to the most recent individual in Leo's database.
Edward III had a son
A1) Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence (1338-1368) m. 1) Elizabeth de Burgh, 4th Countess of Ulster (1332-1363, descended from Edward I), and had
A2) Philippa of Clarence, 5th Countess of Ulster (1355-1377) m. Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March (1352-1381), and had
A3) Lady Elizabeth Mortimer (1371-1417) m. 1) Sir Henry 'Hotspur' Percy (1364-1403), and had
A4) Lady Elizabeth Percy (c.1395-1437) m. 1) John, 7th Lord Clifford (1388-1422, descended from Edward I), and had
A5) Thomas, 8th Lord Clifford (1414-1455) m. Joan Dacre (c.1417-c.1452, descended from Edward I), and had
A6) Maud Clifford (b. c.1436) m. 2) Sir Edmund Sutton, Heir of Dudley (c.1430-1482), and had
A7) Dorothy Dudley (c.1465-1517) m. Richard Wrottesley of Wrottesley Hall (1457-1521), and had
A8) Walter Wrottesley of Wrottesley Hall (d. 1563) m. Isabel Harcourt, and had
A9) Eleanor Wrottesley (d. 1596) m. Richard Lee of Langley (d. 1591, descended from Edward I),* and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00473424&tree=LEO
A10) Katherine Lee (c.1560-1579) m. John Hereford of Sufton Court (1558-1619),** and had
A11) Richard Hereford of Sufton Court (1579-1636) m. 2) Margaret Pershall, and had
A12) Roger Hereford of Sufton Court (c.1612-c.1659) m. Frances Rodd (1611-1689), and had a son A13 & a dau B13 (see below)
A13) James Hereford of Sufton Court (1634-1693) m. 1) Hester Holmes (1637-1676), and had
A14) Anne Hereford (b. 1670) m. her first cousin Rev. Francis Broade of Hereford (see B14 below), and had
A15) Rev. Thomas Broade of Benefield (1692-1753) m. Anne Lodington (1685-1767), and had
A16) Anne Broade (1724-1808) m. her first cousin Thomas Lodington of Westminster (1723-1766), and had
A17) Thomas Lodington of Islington (1761-1848) m. Ann Day (1770-1836), and had
A18) Thomas Edward Lodington (1797-1845) = Mary Ellen --- (d. 1862),*** and had
A19) Beverley Purton Edwards Lodington [later Edwards], illegit. (c.1825-1902) = Buley Gerrard (b. 1824)****, and had
A20) Mary Edwards, illegit. (1854-c.1939) m. William Hold of Camberwell, Surrey, baker, great-great grandparents of James Yeowell
B13) Margery Hereford (b. 1636/7) m. Rev. Thomas Broade of Hereford (d. 1709),***** and had
B14) Rev. Francis Broade of Hereford (1666-1728) m. his first cousin Anne Hereford (see A14 above)
*Douglas Richardson, in Plantagenet Ancestry, both the 2004 edition (p. 484), and the 2011 edition (p. 488), includes Eleanor Wrottesley and Richard Lee of Langley:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=kjme027UeagC&pg=RA1-PA488&lpg=RA1-PA488&dq=eleanor+wrottesley+lee+of+langley&source=bl&ots=quLmHD6bmd&sig=cSp1E5ofJ5Z8ujLjh8VDuOIqLuM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yTceU9GaMcG8oQTXk4L4Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=eleanor%20wrottesley%20lee%20of%20langley&f=false
He doesn't include dates of death for them in either edition. Richard Lee died 27 May, and was buried 2 June 1591 at St Mary Church, Acton Burnell, Shropshire. His widow Eleanor was buried there 15 December 1596:
https://histfam.familysearch.org//getperson.php?personID=I107945&tree=Welsh
**Plantagenet Ancestry has this daughter as "Katherine (wife of John Heyward)", no doubt with the Lee pedigree from the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire as the source, which has "Katherina", daughter of Richard Lee of Langley & Eleanor Wrottesley, as "vxor Joh'is Heyward":
http://archive.org/stream/visitationshrop01britgoog#page/n43/mode/2up
I've found many errors in the 1623 Shropshire Visitation pedigrees, and this appears to be another one. "John Heyward" should instead be "John Hereford". According to the pedigree of Hereford of Sufton Court in Burke's Commoners, John Hereford of Sufton Court (b. 8 September 1558; died 20 October 1619), married 1st, 1578, "Catherine, dau. of Richard Lee, of Langley", by whom he had one child, his son & heir, Richard Hereford of Sufton Court (b. 12 May 1579; d. about 1636):
https://archive.org/stream/genealogicalhera03burk#page/344/mode/2up
The chronology matches well for a younger daughter of Richard Lee of Langley & Eleanor Wrottesley to have married in 1578, considering the marriage of their eldest daughter Dorothy was arranged in 1566. The fact that John Hereford's son by Katherine was given the first name 'Richard', a name not previously used in the Hereford family, also adds weight to the fact that Richard Hereford was a grandson of Richard Lee of Langley.
***It is with Thomas Edward Lodington that the line of descent takes a big slide down the social scale. This unfortunate fellow, the eldest son of a London solicitor, became an ensign in the 53rd Regiment of Foot in 1815, serving in India from 1817 to 1820. Wounded, or perhaps debilitated by cholera, two outbreaks of hitting his regiment during that period, Thomas Edward was removed from active service and placed on half-pay, then taken to court as a debtor in November 1821, where it was "directed that he should pay 25 pounds per annum to his creditors". Thomas Edward had married 16 July 1817 at St George Hanover Square, Westminster, Ann Burrell (born about 1798; died 4 October 1865, London), but the couple seems to have quickly become estranged. By 1819, Thomas Edward had taken up with a woman named Mary Ellen, who was presenting herself as his wife in documents (though any marriage is bigamous, for there is no record of a divorce between Thomas Edward and Ann Burrell). He must have met her outside of England, while serving with his regiment. Their first child was born in June 1820 in Paris, and Thomas and Mary Ellen Lodington, with two infant children, appear on the passenger list of the ship London, which docked in New York in 1823 (a third child was born at sea on the ship). In October 1830 even his half pay was cancelled, and in July 1834, Thomas Edward Lodington was described as "very ill indeed" and "quite a cripple" by two witnesses at his trial, for stealing utensils worth 21 shillings. He'd become a petty thief no doubt because, as the police-constable described, "I went to his house in Bermuda-street, Commercial-road - his wife and family were in great distress". His common law wife was Mary Ellen, and their family was five children, ranging in age from 14 to an infant daughter just a couple months old (who would die the following year). James is attempting to further identify Thomas Edward's common law wife. She was most probably the Ellen Lodington whose death was registered the second quarter of 1862 at St Saviour Southwark.
****Beverley Purton Edwards Lodington, the fourth, and youngest surviving, child of Thomas Edward Lodington, followed in his father's footsteps when it came to marriage. Beverley married 26 September 1848 at Trinity Church, Lambeth, Surrey, Eleanor Sarah Fortye Millis (b. 1832), with whom he had one son who died at birth. Following this, Beverley and his wife Eleanor became estranged and separated. Beverley took up with Buley Gerrard by 1852, with the first of their eight children born 18 August 1853 in London. Beverley dropped his surname Lodington, and assumed the surname of Edwards by 1854. He became a furniture salesman, and rising up from his father's dire circumstances, established himself, his common law wife and their children securely in the London suburb of Camberwell, Surrey, where he died in 1902.
*****Margery Hereford's husband Rev. Thomas Broade was the one who matriculated Brasenose College, Oxford in 1656, was rector of Bromyard, Herefordshire (2nd portion) 1689-1709, and custos of Hereford Cathedral College. Per his M.I. in Hereford Cathedral (the inscription has been worn away, with only a few words decipherable), Rev. Broade and his wife were both buried there. The burials for Hereford Cathedral in this time period have not been published, or indexed in online databases. Luckliy, the Cathedral itself has a database of burials 1685-1813 available reconstructed from burial payments, and James will hopefully have an opportunity to visit Hereford Cathedral this summer and obtain the Broade burial dates:
http://www.herefordcathedral.org/education-research/library-and-archives/a-summary-of-archive-sources
Rev. Thomas Broade's parentage has not yet been established. James has the very persuasive idea that Thomas came from the Broade family of Dunclench, Worcestershire. Unfortunately, The Visitation of Worcestershire 1634 (Harleain Society Vol. 90) was published in 1938, and not available for view online. Neither James nor myself have ready access to this work - if anyone does, and can report on the Broad of Dunclench pedigree, I know James would very much appreciate it.
And there we have it. The line from a 14th-century monarch, to 15th-century baronial families, to a leading county gentry family in the late 15th/early 16th-century (the Wrottesleys), to minor gentry families (the Lees of Langley and the Herefords of Sufton Court), in the late 16th-century, to gentlemen clergymen in the 17th century, to a solid merchant/solicitor class in London in the 18th-century, with a drastic turn down the social scale due to the devastating circumstances of one generation in the 19th-century, to a climb up to the working middle class by the early 20th-century, with a furniture salesman and a baker.
Thomas Lodington of Islington the solicitor and his wife Ann Day (Generation A17 above) had a younger son, William Stewart Lodington of Islington (1802-1888), a clerk in the dividend office of the Bank of England. He married his first cousin Sarah Day (1800-1886), daughter of William Day, governor of Sierra Leone 1803 & 1805. Their third child, John Day Lodington, born 21 February 1825 at Loughton, Essex, emigrated to Australia in the early 1850s, and died 3 March 1882 at Melbourne, buried 6 March 1882 Melbourne General Cemetery. It is estimated that he has over 200 living descendants in Australia today, bringing this particular descent from Edward III to folks throughout the land Down Under. James has information on other emigrant descendants from this line, which I know he'd be happy to share.
Thank you again, James, for bringing to light your very interesting descent.
Cheers, -------Brad
James R. Yeowell
Mar 11, 2014, 9:44:55 AM3/11/14
to
Brad, et al.,
Thank you for posting this. It is much appreciated.
I shall post a more thorough message this evening when I have more time. I concur that this is an interesting line of descent from Edward III. For a while now I knew about descents from other Monarchs (Edward I., Henry II., John, Æþelræd "Unræd", II., Robert of Scotland and the Welsh "petty-kings") but it has only been recently that I discovered my two lines of descent from Edward III. (and thus back to the majority of the aforementioned monarchs) So it was a nice surprise.
Of course, I am proud of all my ancestors. It is nice to know however where some of my origins lie and how those origins got to where they are today and in a provable way. Many do not have that privilege.
I shall write more in full most likely this evening.
I look forward to seeing any comments regarding this too. I know there are doubts regarding the parentage of Margaret Pershall (second wife of A11 in the descent above) but that is not in the scope of this research as she does not have an Edward III. or Edward I. descent. However, she most likely does have an Henry II. descent (and perhaps 2, dependant on her parentage).
If anyone has further details regarding her parentage, it would be much appreciated.
Best regards,
James R. Yeowell
Thank you for posting this. It is much appreciated.
I shall post a more thorough message this evening when I have more time. I concur that this is an interesting line of descent from Edward III. For a while now I knew about descents from other Monarchs (Edward I., Henry II., John, Æþelræd "Unræd", II., Robert of Scotland and the Welsh "petty-kings") but it has only been recently that I discovered my two lines of descent from Edward III. (and thus back to the majority of the aforementioned monarchs) So it was a nice surprise.
Of course, I am proud of all my ancestors. It is nice to know however where some of my origins lie and how those origins got to where they are today and in a provable way. Many do not have that privilege.
I shall write more in full most likely this evening.
I look forward to seeing any comments regarding this too. I know there are doubts regarding the parentage of Margaret Pershall (second wife of A11 in the descent above) but that is not in the scope of this research as she does not have an Edward III. or Edward I. descent. However, she most likely does have an Henry II. descent (and perhaps 2, dependant on her parentage).
If anyone has further details regarding her parentage, it would be much appreciated.
Best regards,
James R. Yeowell
Kelsey Jackson Williams
Mar 12, 2014, 8:09:54 AM3/12/14
to
Thanks for posting this, Brad. It's an interesting line and reminds me of just how untrue the claims of people like Ruvigny were that "with some few exceptions, [no royally descended families] have descended to or are at least traceable among the trading or labouring classes" (Ruvigny, Mortimer-Percy Volume, ix). On which note, are your continued studies of descents like these an indication that you might be preparing a new work comparable to Ruvigny? It would certainly fill a major gap in the literature, if so.
All the best,
Kelsey
scotsgenealogist.com
On Tuesday, 11 March 2014 05:39:07 UTC, Brad Verity wrote
All the best,
Kelsey
scotsgenealogist.com
On Tuesday, 11 March 2014 05:39:07 UTC, Brad Verity wrote
James R. Yeowell
Mar 12, 2014, 2:55:37 PM3/12/14
to
Kelsey, Brad, et al.,
I would very much welcome an up-to-date Ruvigny-like publication. Using the Marquis de Ruvigny's work as a basis, with modern scholarly research and fleshed-out pedigrees, I believe Brad Verity could create a modern and respected work on Edward III. descendants.
I would very much welcome an up-to-date Ruvigny-like publication. Using the Marquis de Ruvigny's work as a basis, with modern scholarly research and fleshed-out pedigrees, I believe Brad Verity could create a modern and respected work on Edward III. descendants.
Brad Verity
Mar 15, 2014, 2:53:45 PM3/15/14
to
On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 5:09:54 AM UTC-7, Kelsey Jackson Williams wrote:
> Thanks for posting this, Brad. It's an interesting line and reminds me of just how untrue the claims of people like Ruvigny were that "with some few exceptions, [no royally descended families] have descended to or are at least traceable among the trading or labouring classes" (Ruvigny, Mortimer-Percy Volume, ix).
Glad you found the line as interesting as I did, Kelsey. I think in this particular case, Ruvigny, who did not trace illegitimate lines, would point to the two illegitimate generations (A19 & A20 in the original post) and claim that illegitimacy was a large factor for them falling into the trading or labouring classes.
> Thanks for posting this, Brad. It's an interesting line and reminds me of just how untrue the claims of people like Ruvigny were that "with some few exceptions, [no royally descended families] have descended to or are at least traceable among the trading or labouring classes" (Ruvigny, Mortimer-Percy Volume, ix).
But I don't think illegitimacy was the main reason at all. Both Beverley [Lodington] Edwards and his daughter Mary Edwards Hold grew up in a household that was presenting itself as legitimate, and each had their father as the head of that household. It isn't even clear if Beverley or Mary ever knew that their parents were not legally married.
I tend to be very conservative when it comes to illegitimate lines. Unlike Ruvigny, I do include them in my database, but only if there is very strong documentary evidence to support them. For this particular line of descent, there is such evidence, which I'm sure James would be happy to share if anyone is interested.
Even setting aside the descendants of Thomas Edward Lodington (generation A18 in the original post), as Ruvigny would have done, there are still plenty of other descendants of the solicitor Thomas Lodington of Islington (generation A17) who were legitimate, yet fall into the trading or labouring classes category, including his Australian immigrant grandson John Day Lodington. Again, James could supply further details, if anyone is interested.
>On which note, are your continued studies of descents like these an indication that you might be preparing a new work comparable to Ruvigny? It would certainly fill a major gap in the literature, if so.
On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 11:55:37 AM UTC-7, James R. Yeowell wrote:
> I would very much welcome an up-to-date Ruvigny-like publication. Using the Marquis de Ruvigny's work as a basis, with modern scholarly research and fleshed-out pedigrees, I believe Brad Verity could create a modern and respected work on Edward III. descendants.
Thank you both, Kelsey and James, for the votes of confidence. I continue to be amazed at the scope of work Ruvigny produced, long before the age of computers and centralized databases. It is on my To Do List of genealogy tasks, to begin an update of Ruvigny's volumes. I have several items ahead of it, and won't be able to begin the project in earnest until the end of this summer (optimistic) or possibly the end of this year (realistic). But it's nice to hear there is an interest out there for it - it certainly helps add to my own motivation!
> I would very much welcome an up-to-date Ruvigny-like publication. Using the Marquis de Ruvigny's work as a basis, with modern scholarly research and fleshed-out pedigrees, I believe Brad Verity could create a modern and respected work on Edward III. descendants.
Cheers, ----Brad
corbyguy
Mar 15, 2014, 6:17:58 PM3/15/14
to
I think you may find this website interesting.
It's called the Descendants of Edward III, A Continuation of the Marquis de
Ruvigny's The Plantagenet Roll of the Blood Royal. Compiled by a Barry
Noonan. It looks as though it has not been updated since 2010 but worth a
look. Link to site here: http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/ruvignyplus/
Regards
Jamie
"Brad Verity" wrote in message
news:076fa623-dd0e-4ad7...@googlegroups.com...
It's called the Descendants of Edward III, A Continuation of the Marquis de
Ruvigny's The Plantagenet Roll of the Blood Royal. Compiled by a Barry
Noonan. It looks as though it has not been updated since 2010 but worth a
look. Link to site here: http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/ruvignyplus/
Regards
Jamie
"Brad Verity" wrote in message
news:076fa623-dd0e-4ad7...@googlegroups.com...
James R. Yeowell
Mar 16, 2014, 11:50:52 PM3/16/14
to
Jamie, et al.,
I have come across that website before. As with any continuation of a previous researchers work it is always going to be a difficult accomplishment.
Mr. Noonan has only continued the Marquis de Ruvigny's research with The Mortimer-Percy Part I edition. He has also tried to trace some new lines of descent from Edward III. but as you indicated yourself, he has not updated the site since 2010 and so much research is unfortunately missing. Also, as with any source like this, one should use it as a guide for your own research as I am sure there are some errors.
Because he is however using Marquis de Ruvigny's work as the basis, he is also not tracing illegitimate lines even if - as in my own case highlighted in Brad's initial post - two of my ancestors with Edward III. descent had common-law partners.
I feel all descendants should be traced whether they were illegitimate or not. Especially so if the partner was also a common-law wife and not a mistress at all who recognised her children. This is unfortunately a relic from the Victorian era. We live in a world now where people choose not to marry but live together as partners and have children together. If the children of this couple should have a descent from Edward III. (or any monarch) then they should be acknowledged as such in any future publications on the subject.
I would be excluded from a Marquis of Ruvigny work even though I have two Edward III. descents. The illegitimacy (although I would not call it that in these cases) occurred in later generations not at a Landed Gentry or Royal level where illegitimacy would be more controversial.
He also does not mention places of birth (or baptism/christening), death (burial/cremation) or marriage which I personally feel lacks the thoroughness and accuracy a research study of this magnitude should have. I presume it is partly for bandwidth purposes however. I have a lot of individuals in my database that lack this information because the source itself lacks it so I have to of course do my own research in this department.
However, it is still a useful resource. As are the websites featuring descendants of William the Bastard, as well as the research of Paul Theroff. As long as one backs the research up with their own.
I have come across that website before. As with any continuation of a previous researchers work it is always going to be a difficult accomplishment.
Mr. Noonan has only continued the Marquis de Ruvigny's research with The Mortimer-Percy Part I edition. He has also tried to trace some new lines of descent from Edward III. but as you indicated yourself, he has not updated the site since 2010 and so much research is unfortunately missing. Also, as with any source like this, one should use it as a guide for your own research as I am sure there are some errors.
Because he is however using Marquis de Ruvigny's work as the basis, he is also not tracing illegitimate lines even if - as in my own case highlighted in Brad's initial post - two of my ancestors with Edward III. descent had common-law partners.
I feel all descendants should be traced whether they were illegitimate or not. Especially so if the partner was also a common-law wife and not a mistress at all who recognised her children. This is unfortunately a relic from the Victorian era. We live in a world now where people choose not to marry but live together as partners and have children together. If the children of this couple should have a descent from Edward III. (or any monarch) then they should be acknowledged as such in any future publications on the subject.
I would be excluded from a Marquis of Ruvigny work even though I have two Edward III. descents. The illegitimacy (although I would not call it that in these cases) occurred in later generations not at a Landed Gentry or Royal level where illegitimacy would be more controversial.
He also does not mention places of birth (or baptism/christening), death (burial/cremation) or marriage which I personally feel lacks the thoroughness and accuracy a research study of this magnitude should have. I presume it is partly for bandwidth purposes however. I have a lot of individuals in my database that lack this information because the source itself lacks it so I have to of course do my own research in this department.
However, it is still a useful resource. As are the websites featuring descendants of William the Bastard, as well as the research of Paul Theroff. As long as one backs the research up with their own.
James R. Yeowell
Mar 18, 2014, 8:52:57 PM3/18/14
to
Brad, Kelsey, Jamie et al.,
As Brad mentioned, there are other interesting individuals descended from Edward III.
through Thomas Lodington and his wife Anne Broade, as well as further interesting
descendants of the Hereford family.
I shall first highlight some of the interesting individuals descended via Thomas Lodington
and Anne Broade. Also note none of these individuals are from an illegitimate line.
We have some clergyman:
Rev. Francis Edward Smith, M.A., rector of Hadstock, Essex.
He was born circa 1830 in Dawlish, Devon and died 11 November 1916, in Hadstock, Essex. He
married twice, firstly on 2 June 1863 at St. Saviour's Church, Upper Chelsea, London to
widow Jane Connell (previously married to Capt. Thomas Knatchbull, R.A. who died 1855, son
of Sir Edward Knatchbull, 8th Bt., D.C.L., M.P. and his second wife Frances Graham),
daughter of Sir John Connell (1765-1831) and his wife Margaret Campbell, daughter of Sir
Ilay Campbell, Bt., M.P., of Succoth and his wife Susan Mary Murray. He married secondly
on 21 June 1881 in Brentford, London to widow Sarah Walker Marlow Wilkinson (widow of Maj.
James Turner), daughter of Rev. Henry Watts Wilkinson, M.A., curate of St. Gregory and St.
Peter, Sudbury, Suffolk and his wife Sarah Walker.
Do either of these wives had Edward III. descents, Brad?
Rev. Francis Edward Smith, M.A. was son of Edward William Smith and his wife Caroline Grace
Lodington, daughter of Rev. Joseph Lodington, M.A., prebendary of Lincoln, vicar of
Horbling, Lincolnshire and his wife Joanna Maria Smith, daughter of John Smith, of
Bucklersbury, London. Rev. Joseph Lodington, M.A. was a son of Thomas Lodington and Anne
Broade.
Edward William Smith, husband of Caroline Grace Lodington, was son of William Edward Smith
and Mary Safford and he was son of John Smith, of Bucklersbury and thus brother of Joanna
Maria Smith, wife of Rev. Joseph Lodington, M.A.
So:
1. Thomas Lodington = Anne Broade
2. Rev. Joseph Lodington, M.A. = Joanna Maria Smith
3. Caroline Grace Lodington = Edward William Smith
4. Rev. Francis Edward Smith, M.A. = married twice, seemingly d.s.p.
1. John Smith, of Bucklersbury = Hannah Mills
2. John Paul Smith = Grace Lodington (daughter of Rev. John Lodington, M.A., rector of
Haddiscoe and Toft Monks, Norfolk -- not a descendant of Edward III.)
2. Joanna Maria Smith = Rev. Joseph Lodington, M.A.
3. Caroline Grace Lodington = Edward William Smith
4. Rev. Francis Edward Smith, M.A.
2. William Edward Smith = Mary Saffory
3. Edward William Smith = Caroline Grace Lodington
4. Rev. Francis Edward Smith, M.A.
Rev. Sidney Coleridge Smith, rector of Rodney Stoke, Somerset. Brother of Rev. Francis
Edward Smith, M.A. above. He married circa 1871, Alice Stroud Barber, daughter of Henry
Stroud Barber and his wife Mary Parker (whose sister Eliza Philadelphia Barber married Dr.
Edward Scudamore, M.D., of Harbledown, Kent and likely related to the Scudamore family of
Herefordshire who married members of the Hereford family). They had issue 6 children, one
of which was Arthur Lodington Smith who married Phyllis and emigrated to Canada. Two of
his sons were in the Canadian forces during World War II.
For those interested in emigrants to Australia:
Richard Down, born 9 July 1916, St. Pancras, London, chr. 2 Aug. 1816, St. Mary, St.
Maryebone Road, Marylebone, London and died 1884 in Williamstown, Melbourne, Victoria.
He married and had issue. Descendants still in Australia.
He was the son of Henry Down and Meliora Lodington, daughter of Thomas Lodington (son of
Thomas Lodington and Anne Broade) and Ann Day.
Henry Down was the son of Richard Down, of Halliwick Manor House, Friern Barnet and his
wife Rose Neale.
One of his sisters was Mary Down and she married Cornelius Buller, Governor of the Bank of
England. Two of his sisters married members of the Van Notton-Pole family.
Anna Guilherma Buller married Sir Peter van Notten, later Van Notten-Pole, 2nd Bt., of
Wolverton
Felizarda Matilda Buller married Charles van Notton, later Van Notten-Pole
Both were brothers and both have a descent from Edward III. via German Pole, of Dalbury
Lees, Derbyshire -- hopefully Brad Verity or others can confirm this.
Frederick William Jackson, born "Fairmead", Loughton, Essex, chr. 18 Apr. 1828, St. Giles,
Camberwell, Surrey and died 4 Nov. 1910, Huntsville, New South Wales.
He also married and had issue and likely has descendants in Australia.
He is the son of George Jackson and Elizabeth Maria Lodington (another daughter of Thomas
Lodington and Ann Day)
Members of the Soares family also emigrated to Australia and America:
Rev. Alberto Dias Soares, minister of Christ Church, Queanbeyan, New South Wales, born 26
Nov. 1830, Euston Square, Highbury, St. Pancras, London, chr. 22 Dec. 1830, St. George,
Bloomsbury, London and died 27 Apr. 1909, Double Bay, Sydney, New South Wales.
He married and has descendants in Australia.
Rev. Gualter Soares, minister of Holy Trinity, Sebastopol, Ballarat, New South Wales, born
3 Oct. 1833, Abbey Road, St. John's Wood, London, chr. 31 Oct. 1833, St. George,
Bloomsbury, London and died Goulburn, New South Wales.
Brother of the above, he married and had issue and had descendants in Australia
Augusto Soares, born 30 Sep. 1829, Euston Square, St. Pancras, London and died bef. 1918 in
the United States. He married and had issue, one of whom was:
Rev. Claudio (Claude) S. Soares, rector of Christ Church Manlius, New York, born 17 May
1871, Wanstead, Essex. His wife, Margaret Haight, was apparently a DAR.
They were parents of 3 children.
The Soares family were a Merchant family of Porto, Portugal. The progenitor of the English
branch of the family was Manoel Joaquim Soares, born 2 Dec. 1792, Oporto and died 17 Dec.
1858 in London. He was the brother of José Henriques Soares, 1º barão de Ancêde and
ancestor of the current 5º barão de Ancêde in Portugal.
Manoel Joaquim Soares married Camilla Mary Basset Lodington, daughter of Thomas Lodington
and Ann Day, so all his descendants have an Edward III. descent.
Via the marriage of Roger Hereford, of Sufton Court and Frances Rodd, there are also many
French descendants of Edward III.
Their son Francis Hereford (chr. 21 May 1640, Mordiford, Herefordshire) married Frances de
Brower, of Nieupoort, Belgium and had issue 3 children, viz. Charles Hereford, Judoc
Hereford and Frances Ann Hereford. Alas, I do not know if any of them married and had
issue.
However his younger brother Roger Hereford (born 1641, died 30 Dec. 1730, Dunkerque,
France) emigrated to Dunkirk and married Antoinette Mollien on 23 February 1689 in Calais.
She was the daughter of Gaspard Mollien, mayeur de Calais and Anne Sevestre.
Via their eldest daughter Anne Louise Marie Antoinette Hereford they're ancestors of
members of the Le Grand de Beauregard, Denis de Senneville, Watier, d'Azémar, de Centenier
de Faque/de Faque de Centenier (marquis de Cabassole), de Vaugiraud (marquis de Vaugiraud),
Aubourg de Boury and de Courrèges (baron de Courrèges) families. Plus likely more.
Via their second daughter Françoise Henriette Hereford they're ancestors of members of the
Calonne de Courtebourne (marquis de Licques, comte de Calonne-Courtebourne) and d'Alcantara
(comte d'Alcantara) families and again, likely more.
So as Brad Verity has previously mentioned I feel the Marquis de Ruvigny was incorrect in
his remarks regarding Edward III. descendants and their class.
All the above individuals were descended via Edward III. through no illegitimacy and you
can see that they are from a variety of backgrounds.
Of course, this is just a small sample from the descendants of two couples but I feel as
further research is done it will be apparent that many other people not from a Gentry class
will have provable Edward III. descents.
Best regards,
James R. Yeowell.
As Brad mentioned, there are other interesting individuals descended from Edward III.
through Thomas Lodington and his wife Anne Broade, as well as further interesting
descendants of the Hereford family.
I shall first highlight some of the interesting individuals descended via Thomas Lodington
and Anne Broade. Also note none of these individuals are from an illegitimate line.
We have some clergyman:
Rev. Francis Edward Smith, M.A., rector of Hadstock, Essex.
He was born circa 1830 in Dawlish, Devon and died 11 November 1916, in Hadstock, Essex. He
married twice, firstly on 2 June 1863 at St. Saviour's Church, Upper Chelsea, London to
widow Jane Connell (previously married to Capt. Thomas Knatchbull, R.A. who died 1855, son
of Sir Edward Knatchbull, 8th Bt., D.C.L., M.P. and his second wife Frances Graham),
daughter of Sir John Connell (1765-1831) and his wife Margaret Campbell, daughter of Sir
Ilay Campbell, Bt., M.P., of Succoth and his wife Susan Mary Murray. He married secondly
on 21 June 1881 in Brentford, London to widow Sarah Walker Marlow Wilkinson (widow of Maj.
James Turner), daughter of Rev. Henry Watts Wilkinson, M.A., curate of St. Gregory and St.
Peter, Sudbury, Suffolk and his wife Sarah Walker.
Do either of these wives had Edward III. descents, Brad?
Rev. Francis Edward Smith, M.A. was son of Edward William Smith and his wife Caroline Grace
Lodington, daughter of Rev. Joseph Lodington, M.A., prebendary of Lincoln, vicar of
Horbling, Lincolnshire and his wife Joanna Maria Smith, daughter of John Smith, of
Bucklersbury, London. Rev. Joseph Lodington, M.A. was a son of Thomas Lodington and Anne
Broade.
Edward William Smith, husband of Caroline Grace Lodington, was son of William Edward Smith
and Mary Safford and he was son of John Smith, of Bucklersbury and thus brother of Joanna
Maria Smith, wife of Rev. Joseph Lodington, M.A.
So:
1. Thomas Lodington = Anne Broade
2. Rev. Joseph Lodington, M.A. = Joanna Maria Smith
3. Caroline Grace Lodington = Edward William Smith
4. Rev. Francis Edward Smith, M.A. = married twice, seemingly d.s.p.
1. John Smith, of Bucklersbury = Hannah Mills
2. John Paul Smith = Grace Lodington (daughter of Rev. John Lodington, M.A., rector of
Haddiscoe and Toft Monks, Norfolk -- not a descendant of Edward III.)
2. Joanna Maria Smith = Rev. Joseph Lodington, M.A.
3. Caroline Grace Lodington = Edward William Smith
4. Rev. Francis Edward Smith, M.A.
2. William Edward Smith = Mary Saffory
3. Edward William Smith = Caroline Grace Lodington
4. Rev. Francis Edward Smith, M.A.
Rev. Sidney Coleridge Smith, rector of Rodney Stoke, Somerset. Brother of Rev. Francis
Edward Smith, M.A. above. He married circa 1871, Alice Stroud Barber, daughter of Henry
Stroud Barber and his wife Mary Parker (whose sister Eliza Philadelphia Barber married Dr.
Edward Scudamore, M.D., of Harbledown, Kent and likely related to the Scudamore family of
Herefordshire who married members of the Hereford family). They had issue 6 children, one
of which was Arthur Lodington Smith who married Phyllis and emigrated to Canada. Two of
his sons were in the Canadian forces during World War II.
For those interested in emigrants to Australia:
Richard Down, born 9 July 1916, St. Pancras, London, chr. 2 Aug. 1816, St. Mary, St.
Maryebone Road, Marylebone, London and died 1884 in Williamstown, Melbourne, Victoria.
He married and had issue. Descendants still in Australia.
He was the son of Henry Down and Meliora Lodington, daughter of Thomas Lodington (son of
Thomas Lodington and Anne Broade) and Ann Day.
Henry Down was the son of Richard Down, of Halliwick Manor House, Friern Barnet and his
wife Rose Neale.
One of his sisters was Mary Down and she married Cornelius Buller, Governor of the Bank of
England. Two of his sisters married members of the Van Notton-Pole family.
Anna Guilherma Buller married Sir Peter van Notten, later Van Notten-Pole, 2nd Bt., of
Wolverton
Felizarda Matilda Buller married Charles van Notton, later Van Notten-Pole
Both were brothers and both have a descent from Edward III. via German Pole, of Dalbury
Lees, Derbyshire -- hopefully Brad Verity or others can confirm this.
Frederick William Jackson, born "Fairmead", Loughton, Essex, chr. 18 Apr. 1828, St. Giles,
Camberwell, Surrey and died 4 Nov. 1910, Huntsville, New South Wales.
He also married and had issue and likely has descendants in Australia.
He is the son of George Jackson and Elizabeth Maria Lodington (another daughter of Thomas
Lodington and Ann Day)
Members of the Soares family also emigrated to Australia and America:
Rev. Alberto Dias Soares, minister of Christ Church, Queanbeyan, New South Wales, born 26
Nov. 1830, Euston Square, Highbury, St. Pancras, London, chr. 22 Dec. 1830, St. George,
Bloomsbury, London and died 27 Apr. 1909, Double Bay, Sydney, New South Wales.
He married and has descendants in Australia.
Rev. Gualter Soares, minister of Holy Trinity, Sebastopol, Ballarat, New South Wales, born
3 Oct. 1833, Abbey Road, St. John's Wood, London, chr. 31 Oct. 1833, St. George,
Bloomsbury, London and died Goulburn, New South Wales.
Brother of the above, he married and had issue and had descendants in Australia
Augusto Soares, born 30 Sep. 1829, Euston Square, St. Pancras, London and died bef. 1918 in
the United States. He married and had issue, one of whom was:
Rev. Claudio (Claude) S. Soares, rector of Christ Church Manlius, New York, born 17 May
1871, Wanstead, Essex. His wife, Margaret Haight, was apparently a DAR.
They were parents of 3 children.
The Soares family were a Merchant family of Porto, Portugal. The progenitor of the English
branch of the family was Manoel Joaquim Soares, born 2 Dec. 1792, Oporto and died 17 Dec.
1858 in London. He was the brother of José Henriques Soares, 1º barão de Ancêde and
ancestor of the current 5º barão de Ancêde in Portugal.
Manoel Joaquim Soares married Camilla Mary Basset Lodington, daughter of Thomas Lodington
and Ann Day, so all his descendants have an Edward III. descent.
Via the marriage of Roger Hereford, of Sufton Court and Frances Rodd, there are also many
French descendants of Edward III.
Their son Francis Hereford (chr. 21 May 1640, Mordiford, Herefordshire) married Frances de
Brower, of Nieupoort, Belgium and had issue 3 children, viz. Charles Hereford, Judoc
Hereford and Frances Ann Hereford. Alas, I do not know if any of them married and had
issue.
However his younger brother Roger Hereford (born 1641, died 30 Dec. 1730, Dunkerque,
France) emigrated to Dunkirk and married Antoinette Mollien on 23 February 1689 in Calais.
She was the daughter of Gaspard Mollien, mayeur de Calais and Anne Sevestre.
Via their eldest daughter Anne Louise Marie Antoinette Hereford they're ancestors of
members of the Le Grand de Beauregard, Denis de Senneville, Watier, d'Azémar, de Centenier
de Faque/de Faque de Centenier (marquis de Cabassole), de Vaugiraud (marquis de Vaugiraud),
Aubourg de Boury and de Courrèges (baron de Courrèges) families. Plus likely more.
Via their second daughter Françoise Henriette Hereford they're ancestors of members of the
Calonne de Courtebourne (marquis de Licques, comte de Calonne-Courtebourne) and d'Alcantara
(comte d'Alcantara) families and again, likely more.
So as Brad Verity has previously mentioned I feel the Marquis de Ruvigny was incorrect in
his remarks regarding Edward III. descendants and their class.
All the above individuals were descended via Edward III. through no illegitimacy and you
can see that they are from a variety of backgrounds.
Of course, this is just a small sample from the descendants of two couples but I feel as
further research is done it will be apparent that many other people not from a Gentry class
will have provable Edward III. descents.
Best regards,
James R. Yeowell.
James R. Yeowell
Mar 18, 2014, 8:55:17 PM3/18/14
to
Apologies about the formatting. I was having issues posting and copied my text into Notepad and it's messed up the formatting after posting it here.
James R. Yeowell
Mar 20, 2014, 3:02:33 PM3/20/14
to
> Edward William Smith, husband of Caroline Grace Lodington, was son of William Edward Smith and Mary Safford and he was son of John Smith, of Bucklersbury and thus brother of Joanna
Correction: read Mary Saffory for Mary Safford.
James R. Yeowell
Mar 20, 2014, 6:10:05 PM3/20/14
to
Greetings,
If anyone has access to The Visitation of Worcestershire 1634 (Harleain Society Vol. 90), published in 1938, could they mayhap take a look at the Broade of Dunclench Visitation and check whether any of the family migrated to Herefordshire?
There were Broades in Herefordshire by 1634 and I know members of both the Broade of Dunclench, Worcestershire family and members of the Broade of Herefordshire family matriculated from Brasenose College, Oxford and I am hoping that this was due to them being of the same family.
It would be very much appreciated.
You can message me or Brad Verity off-list.
Regards,
James R. Yeowell
If anyone has access to The Visitation of Worcestershire 1634 (Harleain Society Vol. 90), published in 1938, could they mayhap take a look at the Broade of Dunclench Visitation and check whether any of the family migrated to Herefordshire?
There were Broades in Herefordshire by 1634 and I know members of both the Broade of Dunclench, Worcestershire family and members of the Broade of Herefordshire family matriculated from Brasenose College, Oxford and I am hoping that this was due to them being of the same family.
It would be very much appreciated.
You can message me or Brad Verity off-list.
Regards,
James R. Yeowell
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Mar 21, 2014, 7:22:44 PM3/21/14
to
Brad Verity
Mar 21, 2014, 8:41:10 PM3/21/14
to
On Friday, March 21, 2014 4:22:44 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I've sent a copy of the relevant pages of the 1634 Worcestershire visitation to Brad Verity off-list - I can't seem to send a copy to you at the moment via Google Groups. I'm sure Brad will forward it to you, but if he doesn't you can send me a note off-list which I should be able to reply to with an attachment.
Many thanks, John. I forwarded the Broade pedigree to James, and hope it helps in his research into this family.
> I've sent a copy of the relevant pages of the 1634 Worcestershire visitation to Brad Verity off-list - I can't seem to send a copy to you at the moment via Google Groups. I'm sure Brad will forward it to you, but if he doesn't you can send me a note off-list which I should be able to reply to with an attachment.
Cheers, ---Brad
James R. Yeowell
Mar 22, 2014, 4:44:06 AM3/22/14
to
Brad, John and Jamie,
Thank you for forwarding on the Brode of Dunclent, Worcestershire pedigree onto me. It is very much appreciated.
Although I have not been able to determine a proven link between the two families I have been able to determine possible research areas that might do so. There are similarities in familial names as well as the attendance of the same Oxford University College in both families. Although they could all be a coincidence, of course.
I have also been able to determine some errors within the pedigree too after finding baptism/christening details for some of the individuals named.
I am not sure where to look next however.
Thank you again.
Thank you for forwarding on the Brode of Dunclent, Worcestershire pedigree onto me. It is very much appreciated.
Although I have not been able to determine a proven link between the two families I have been able to determine possible research areas that might do so. There are similarities in familial names as well as the attendance of the same Oxford University College in both families. Although they could all be a coincidence, of course.
I have also been able to determine some errors within the pedigree too after finding baptism/christening details for some of the individuals named.
I am not sure where to look next however.
Thank you again.
evan...@gmail.com
Aug 24, 2017, 9:42:56 AM8/24/17
to
I think we had some contact a few years ago on rootschat. I took a few years off my family research to attend to other matters, but am slowly picking it up again. You are a descendant of the Lodington line who married into the Down family of London. I am a descendant of Richard Down and Rose Neale. Do you have any information about them? Would love to hear from you if you still researching. Cheers. Dewi
nicol...@gmail.com
Sep 15, 2017, 12:16:27 AM9/15/17
to
thank you so much for providing this discussion!! I'm an Australian descendent of Frederick William Jackson son of Elizabeth Maria Lodington. I had previously been stuck on her, but your information has helped me go much further than I had first thought possible. Many thanks Brad and James. Are you both from this line?
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