Llywelyn AT - Part 1 of 9
Stewart Baldwin
Some of this may be unintelligible if you do not have all parts.
Stewart Baldwin
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Llywelyn ap Iorwerth ancestor table
by Stewart Baldwin
Introduction
The ancestor table given here is an attempt to give the known ancestry
of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, prince of North Wales, in all lines, back to
the earliest recorded generations which can be accepted with
reasonable confidence, using documentation from primary sources. The
format is that of the standard Ancestor Table numbering system. Those
who are unfamiliar with this system can find a description in my
recent posting on the subject. Sources are given in brackets
following each entry, using abbreviations which are explained in the
bibliography at the end [of the last part]. Given the ambitious
nature of such a project, it is clear that some discussion is required
regarding the criterion for inclusion or exclusion of particular
individuals in this table.
If this table had included all ancestors of Llywelyn which are claimed
in some source, then it would have probably turned out at least twice
as long as the current table. However, it has been the policy here to
try and avoid the "maybe's" and "possibly's" which would come from
using the more questionable sources. At the opposite extreme, if we
were to include only those individuals who are documented by surviving
contemporary documents, the table would be quite short. Documents
were copied over and over by hand in the days before printing presses,
and the pragmatic course is to accept the current scholarly consensus
regarding the original date of composition for such sources, with due
allowance for copying errors and deliberate alteration.
Let us start with the Irish material. Now, as it happens, all but a
handful of Llywelyn's known Irish ancestors were also ancestors of
Aífe (commonly called "Eve of Leinster") Mac Murchada (MacMurrough),
wife of Richard "Strongbow", earl of Pembroke, and therefore much of
the material discussed in "The Ancestry of Eve of Leinster" [EL, cited
below], by Professor David H. Kelley is also relevant to the ancestry
of Llywelyn. Someone comparing this table with EL will note
significant differences between the two, and that those differences
invariably involve a more skeptical position on my part compared to
that of Professor Kelley. For example, in the first paragraph of EL,
Professor Kelley makes the comment (without supporting evidence) that
"Pedigrees are written records, based on good contemporary documents,
and not on verbal tradition, at any period later than the fifth
century." That view may have been a fairly common opinion among
scholars in the nineteenth or the early twentieth century, but does
not represent the consensus of modern scholars, which is much more
skeptical about the early Irish genealogies. See PNIG, IKHK, and IBV,
and other sources cited in those works.
The exact time that the large collections of Irish genealogies began
to be written down is unclear. After that, they would be brought up
to date from time to time, and this is what we have in the earliest
surviving genealogical collections of the twelfth century, R and LL.
When the collections were brought up to date, there would be side
branches which did not survive (or whose descendants were no longer
politically important enough to record), and the various layers in the
transmission of these pedigrees can be detected by looking at the
uneven distribution of these obscure side branches. This type of
analysis shows that the composition of many of the pedigrees goes back
at least to the seventh or eighth centuries. Unfortunately, it also
shows that at some time, probably starting in the eighth century, a
very artificial scheme was created in which all of the major Irish
dynasties were allegedly the direct male line descendants of the same
line (the "Milesians"). Numerous artificial relationships were
created between various families, with eighth century politics being
the most important factor. [See PNIG for a discussion of this.]
Nevertheless, comparison of the genealogies with the annals (of which
the basic framework is thought to be contemporary from ca. 550, with
the understanding that some individual entries are later
interpolations, which may or may not be detectable), and with early
king lists (for example, in LL.39a ff.), indicate that many of the
genealogies are valid back to the sixth century, and some even to the
fifth century. However, the modern scholarly literature with which I
am familiar (which I think is representative of the whole) would not
regard as historical such allegedly fourth century figures as Cathaír
Már or Dáire Barrach, as Professor Kelley would suggest (EL, pp. 6,
18).
For the Welsh lines given here, the priciples are much the same,
except that the volume of material is much less, and generally later.
While the well evidenced major lines from Gwynedd and Dyfed can be
traced to times rivalling (if not quite equalling) the Irish lines, it
is difficult to accept the genealogies of the various lines which
emerged in the eleventh century, usually through long strings of names
having no identifiable historical position.
This brings up a common problem that appears in trying to assess
these traditional genealogies. A genealogy proceeds gradually from an
obviously fictional individual to a well evidenced historical line,
and we would like to know the exact point at which the genealogy
becomes "correct" (whatever that word means in a context in which
undetected adulteries are added to the obvious historical problems).
Of course, that is often impossible to do with any degree of
certainty, and some might argue that I am foolish to try, but I think
that the exercise is worth the attempt. I have tried to be
consistent, but the shades of gray are often difficult to judge. In
this table, "Unknown" does not necessarily mean that there is no
source which claims to give the data, but that, in my opinion, the
information falls short of reasonable proof. I have explained my
reasons in each case, but it must be acknowledged that there may be
cases where a handful of earlier generations are correct in the
sources. For the Irish individuals, I have generally given the name
of the sept or tribe to which they belonged in parentheses. For Irish
names, I have tried to adhere to a Middle Irish standard, and Welsh
names will generally be given in Modern Welsh. However, since my
knowledge of both of those languages is very limited, I suspect that
errors will be inevitable, and I would appreciate being informed of
any such mistakes (such as missed accents or incorrectly declined
genetives in the Irish names).
Generation 1
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, prince of North Wales, d. 1240 [AC.b 1240:
"Obiit magnus Achilles secundus, dominus scilicet Lewelinus filius
Gervaisi filii Owini Guynet, tunc princeps Walliae, ..."]. [ByT; MG.1;
JC.28-29]
Generation 2
2. Iorwerth Drwyndwn ab Owain Gwynedd [MG.1; JC.28]
3. Margred ferch Madog [JC.29] [Note: It has been suggested, on the
basis of a statement in Dugdale's Monasticon Anglicanum (6:497), in
which Llywelyn refers to a certain Walter Corbet as "frater Willielmi
Corbet avunculi mei", that Llywelyn's mother was a Corbet. (See, for
example, Meisel's Barons of the Welsh Frontier, which, however, does
not even mention the Welsh version of Llywelyn's maternity in JC.)
However, as the source of JC.29 appears to have been written during
Llywelyn's lifetime, and there are others ways in which an
uncle-nephew relationship between William Corbet (an obscure
individual) and Llywelyn could be explained, there seems to be no good
reason to reject the statement of JC.29 regarding the identity of
Llywelyn's mother.]
Generation 3
4. Owain Gwynedd, d. 1169, king of Gwynedd, 1137-69. [MG.1; JC.28]
5. Gwladus ferch Llywarch [ABT.2a]
6. Madog ap Maredudd, prince of Powys Fadog, d. 1160 [AC.b 1161:
"Madoc Powysorum princeps obiit."] [MG.3; JC.29]
7. Unknown. [Note: Possibly Susanna ferch Gruffudd ap Cynan (sister
of #4), who was wife of Madog ap Maredudd, but Madog is known to have
had children by other women also, and Bartrum does not list a mother
for Margred in his charts in BWG,indicating that the early sources do
not identify Margred's mother. PF, vol. 1, pp. 119-124 states that
Margred (Margaret) was daughter of Madog by Susanna, but this source
also gives Madog a chronologically impossible second wife Maude who
md. 2nd, John Fitz Alan, d. 1268, earl of Arundel, who lived a hundred
years later, and PF cannot be considered reliable on this matter.]
Generation 4
8. Gruffydd ap Cynan, king of Gwynedd, d. 1137 [AC.b 1137: "Grifinus
filius Conani obiit."]. [GaC; MG.1; JC.28]
9. Angharad ferch Owain [ABT.5]
10. Llywarch ap Trahaern, active 1109-1124 [ByT; ABT.2a]
11. Unknown [Note: Bartrum p. 354 gives Dyddgu ferch Iorwerth ap
Cadwgan ab Elystan Glodrudd in this position, but his only source is
the late visitation LD.ii.24, which names Dyddgu as the mother of
another child of Llywarch, but not of Gwladus (#5). In addition, the
sources given by Bartrum for Dyddgu's alleged father Iorwerth ap
Cadwgan are all late 16th century or later, so Iorwerth's existence is
also uncertain. In my opinion, this link should be regarded as
dubious.]
12. Maredudd ap Bleddyn, d. 1132 [AC.b 1132: "Maredut filius Bledint
dux Powisorum obiit."] [MG.3; JC.27]
13. Hunydd ferch Einudd [ABT.1c,8f]
14-15. Unknown
Generation 5
16. Cynan ab Iago [JC.25; GaC]
17. Radnaillt of Dublin [GaC] [Note: The name of the wife of Cynan ap
Iago, her parentage, and her mother's parentage are known only from
GaC (and sources dependant on GaC). Although reservations have
sometimes been expressed regarding this information, enough of the
data from the pedigrees of Radnaillt are verified in Irish sources
that I am inclined to regard the information as genuine. For a recent
discussion of this, see Seán Duffy, "Ostmen, Irish, and Welsh in the
Eleventh Century", Peritia 9 (1995), 378-96.]
18. Owain ab Edwin, d. 1104 [AC.b 1104: "Owinus filius Edwinus
obiit."], Welsh chieftan in Tegeingl. [ABT.2b,e,5a]
19. Unknown [ABT.2b gives the name of the mother of Owain's son
Goronwy as "Morwyl verch Ydnywain bendew ap Neiniad ap Gwaithuoed ap
Gwrydr", but there seems to be no good evidence that Morwyl was also
the mother of Angharad.]
20 Trahaern ap Caradog, of Arwystli, d. 1081 [AC], king of Gwynedd
[ByT; ABT.2a,13,14]
21. Unknown. [According to BWG, she was Nest, daughter of Gruffudd ap
Llywelyn (d. 1063), the first (and only) native king of all of Wales.
Gruffudd did have a daughter named Nest, wife of Osbern Fitz Richard,
but there is no evidence that she was also married to Trahaern ap
Caradog, and no early source for a second daughter named Nest. The
sources given by Bartrum for this link are all very late, the earliest
being Lewys Dwnn's visitation of Wales which started in 1586
(LD.ii.107), and the other two cited sources being early 17th century
manuscripts. LD.ii.107 has Nest marrying 1st Trahaern, and 2nd, the
mythical Fleance son of Banquo (alleged ancestor of the Stewarts),
which gives even more cause for doubt, and I am inclined to regard the
supposed marriage of Trahaern ap Caradog to a daughter of Gruffudd ap
Llewelyn as a very late invention.]
22-23. Unknown
24. Bleddyn ap Cynfyn, king of Gwynedd and Powys, d. 1075 [AC] [MG.3,
JC.27]
25. Haer ferch Cillin [ABT.1d,8b]
26. Einudd of Dyffrin Clwyd [ABT.1c,8f] [Note: See BWG for supposed
earlier generations. I am inclined to regard the generations prior to
Einudd as dubious, because of the late sources and the lack of
identifiably historical individuals among the alleged ancestors.]
27-31. Unknown
Alex Polenov
And can I get a list of welsh names? Its sounds unpronouncing ;-)
Really Llywelyn is a first welsh name I've ever heard.
Can you also give me a list of tituls that welsh used instead barons,
lords and earls?
Before this time I don't know that welsh names and language too
different from english.
sincerely,
Alex.
William Addams Reitwiesner
>What is a kingdoom of Gwynedd?
Northern Wales. Traditionally Gwynedd is divided into "Gwynedd uwch Conwy"
(which is the area to the west of the Conwy River, called "Carnarvonshire"
by the English), and "Gwynedd is Conwy" (to the east of the Conwy, called
"Denbighshire" by the English).
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."