Harcourt - Camville - de Rethel
Doug McDonald
Genelogics. From there I end up in the s.g.m. archives and lots of data
but utter confusion.
Alice de Harcourt, who married Waleran de Newburgh, was daughter of
Robert de Harcourt, who marrried Isabel de Camville.
Isabel de Camville was daughter of Richard de Camville, d 1191
This Richard appears to be a descendant of the de Rethel family.
But I am thoroughly confused. John Ravilious in sgm Mar 17 2005 and
Todd Farmerie in sgm Aug 5, 2007 have ggod articles on this. I'm still
confused, especially since the emphasis was not on Camville.
What is the story on the connection I'm interested in.
Doug McDonald
t...@clearwire.net
Not clear where your confusion lies. Is it about the Rethel
connection?
taf
us...@domain.invalid
It's the whole line which connects Harcourt to de Rethel, as shown on
Genealogics.
Here is what I have for 6 generations:
1 7490 Isabel de Camville (m. Robert de Harcourt)
2 7491 Richard de Camville of Stanton : Abt 1127 >> 1191
3 1812 Milicent de Rethel : Abt 1110 >>
4 15523 Richard de Camville : >> 1176
5 15522 Melisende
10 17697 Gervase Count of Rethel
11 19543 Elizabeth de Namur
22 27128 Albert III Comte de Namur : >> 22 Jun 1102
23 27129 Ida of Saxony : >> Aft 1117
44 27130 Albert II Comte de Namur : >> 1063-1064
45 27131 Regelindis de Lorraine : >> Aft 1064
46 20361 Bernhard II Duke of Saxony : >> 29 Jun 1059
47 20364 Eilica von Schweinfurt : Abt 1004 >> Aft 1055
Leo has only one of the rather suspicious double Melisende/Milicent de Rethels, and
has a different parent for Elizabeth de Namur.
I indeed read the older s.g.m stuff, but it is not all that concerned with
Camville, rather the s.g.m. obsessive, Marmion.
So I'd like to get straighted out on this question.
Doug McDonald
al...@mindspring.com
See:
CP X Appendix I. DEP, p 100. P & P, p 208. VCH (Oxon), VI: 244,
XII: 274. DD, p 378. CP VIII: 505-521.
The Richard de Camville who died abt 1176 is thought to have married
first Alice and then Milicent de Rethel.
By his first wife he had the Richard f(d. abt 1191) father of Isabel
de Camville (heiress).
However, DD says he died in 1224 in which case he was likely a son of
Millicent de Rethel.
It is not clear to me that this has been completely resolved as yet.
Doug Smith
CE Wood
her father:
11 Elizabeth de Namur
22 Godfrey, Comte de Namur
23 Sibylle de Château-Porcien
44 Albert III, Comte de Namur
45 Ida Billung von Saxony
46 Roger, Comte de Château-Porcien
47 Ermengarde
CE Wood
John P. Ravilious
A few points on the ancestry of Isabel de Camville:
1. She was the daughter of the elder Richard de Camville, by
his 2nd wife Millicent (or Melisende). Millicent had the
grant of Stanton, co. Oxon. from her kinswoman Adeliza of
Louvain, Queen (2nd wife) of Henry I of England [the
grant has Adeliza calling her 'cognata mea' [see among ofher
useful sources, Alan B. Wilson, <Re: Beauchamps of Salwarpe>
in the SGM archives]. Stanton was given to Isabel de
Camville as her maritagium, subsequent to which it is
better known as Stanton Harcourt.
2. The name of the wife of the younger Richard de Camville is
unknown; Richard was at any rate a younger son of Richard
de Camville and Millicent (Gerard de Camville was the
elder son and heir). Richard 'the younger' held Benham, co.
Berks. - see VCH Berkshire, IV:97-110, accessible at
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=62688
3. Elizabeth of Namur, Millicent's mother [11 19543 Elizabeth de
Namur in the ahnentafel you gave] was the daughte of Godfrey
Count of Namur, son and heir of Albert III. I will send a
brief AT in a followup post.
Hope this will be of use.
Cheers,
John
On May 2, 9:14 am, u...@domain.invalid wrote:
John P. Ravilious
Re: the matter of the wives of Richard de Camville, there is no
uncertainty - he married 1stly Adelicia, and 2ndly Millicent. See the
following, from Chart. Jumi�ges, II:1-2, no. CI, in which charter
'Ricardus de Camvilla', granted a third part of the 'd�mes' of his
lands at Hautot-l'Auvray to Jumi�ges priory, dated at Arques, 1170
("du 5 avril au 27 mars 1171").
' Sciant presentes et posteri quod ego Ricardus de Camvilla,
assensu heredum meorum, dedi Deo et sancte
Marie sanctoque Petro et monachis Gemmeticensibus in
elemosinam terciam partem decimarum que sunt in terra
mea apud Hottoth (2) et in finibus ejusdem ville, pro salute
anime mee et uxoris mee Adelicie et sequentis
uxoris mee Milesente, patris et matris mee et Rogeri
fratris mei et aliorum predecessorum meorum, perpetuo
possidendam. Quam donationem cum duabus
partibus ejusdem decime quas ab antiquo ex lar-
gitione predecessorum meorum predicta ecclesia cum
ecclesia ejusdem ville possederat, sigilli mei impres-
sione munivi et subscriptorum virorum testimonio
corroboravi : Rogeri, capellani mei ; Hunfredi, cle-
rici mei ; Ricardi, filii mei : Gisleberti de Cantelu ;
Roberti de Coldreto ; Hugonis de Barrevilla ; Osberni
de Odemara; Ricardi Hachet ; Willelmi de Barrevilla;
Stephani de Chevremont. Actum apud Archas (1), anno
ab incarnatione Domini. M�. C�. septuagesimo. Amen. '
Following is the promised AT.
Cheers,
John
____________________________
1 Isabel de Camville.
lady of Stanton, co. Oxon[1]
(received Stanton as her maritagium from her mother)[2]
called daughter and eventual heir of Richard de Camville 'the
younger' (her brother) in Loyd (p. 29, No. 42[3]), but the chronology
and her maritagium make her identification as shown certain.
Isabel married Robert de Harcourt.
2 Richard de Camville.
died ca 1176.[4]
of Stanton, Oxon.[1]
2nd husband of Milicent of Rethel, widow of Robert Marmion[2]
'...Ric(ardo) de Canuilla,...' witness to King Stephen's confirmation
and award of lands at Ickleton, Brookhampton and `Willecroft', ca.
1145-1150[5]
' Richard de Kanvilla ', witness together with his son Gerard of
Charter of Robert son of Ralph de Bileneie [Binley] confirming the
gift of his brother Joillinus to the monks of Cumba, dated ca.
1161-1182 - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory
of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite: DR10/193[6]
founder of Combe Abbey, co. Warwicks. [DD 378-9][7]:
confirmation by Roger de Mowbray:
' Charter of Roger de Molb'io [Mowbray] addressed to Walter [Durdent]
Bishop of Coventry. confirming to the monks of Cumba in free alms all
the land of Smita given to the said monks for the founding of a
Cistercian abbey by Richard de Camvill' who held the land of the said
Roger for the service of one knight. This the said Roger remits and
agrees to render the service of another knight to the Earl of
Leicester for Brinkelawe [Brinklow] so that the monks shall owe the
said Roger no secular service. The said Roger also grants the dead
wood in his wood of Burtleia [Birchly Wood in Brinklow] together with
rights of pasture and pannage.
Witnesses: Roger de Flamvill', Herbert de Morevill', Richard his
son, William de Arches, Robert de Daivill', Bertrand Haget, William
his son, William de Camvill', Ralph de Belveir, Robert his brother,
Ralph de Betlum and many others.
[ Lower part of tag and seal cut away. Endorsed: i) Carta Rogerii de
Molbraio de Smita [contemp]; ii) Tenura de Brink' per ius feodi ---
Burteley pannagium et pastura [AG]. ] - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace
Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] ,
Combe alias Smite: DR10/194[6]
'Ricardus de Camvilla', granted a charter of a third part of the
'd�mes' of his lands at Hautot-l'Auvray to Jumi�ges priory, dated at
Arques, 1170 ("du 5 avril au 27 mars 1171").
' Sciant presentes et posteri quod ego Ricardus de Camvilla,
assensu heredum meorum, dedi Deo et sancte
Marie sanctoque Petro et monachis Gemmeticensibus in
elemosinam terciam partem decimarum que sunt in terra
mea apud Hottoth (2) et in finibus ejusdem ville, pro salute
anime mee et uxoris mee Adelicie et sequentis
uxoris mee Milesente, patris et matris mee et Rogeri
fratris mei et aliorum predecessorum meorum, perpetuo
possidendam. Quam donationem cum duabus
partibus ejusdem decime quas ab antiquo ex lar-
gitione predecessorum meorum predicta ecclesia cum
ecclesia ejusdem ville possederat, sigilli mei impres-
sione munivi et subscriptorum virorum testimonio
corroboravi : Rogeri, capellani mei ; Hunfredi, cle-
rici mei ; Ricardi, filii mei : Gisleberti de Cantelu ;
Roberti de Coldreto ; Hugonis de Barrevilla ; Osberni
de Odemara; Ricardi Hachet ; Willelmi de Barrevilla;
Stephani de Chevremont. Actum apud Archas (1), anno
ab incarnatione Domini. M�. C�. septuagesimo. Amen. '
[Chart. Jumi�ges, II:1-2, no. CI[8], cites '(Arch. de la Seine-
Inf�rieure, fonds de Jumi�ges, s�rie H non class�e). ? B. Copie du
commencement du \1u< s., dans le
Cartulaire A, p. 198, n� 336 (Ibidem). Mentionn� dans : Histoire de
l'abbaye royale de Saint-Pierre de Jumi�ges (�.iit. abb� J. Loth), I,
278. ']
the following charter was likely granted by the same Richard de
Camville:
" Ricardus de Camuill' ", granted a charter to Richard Pipard
restoring land in Stanton Harcourt, co. Oxon. which his grandfather
Sir Leger had held by the gift of Richard de Camville and Milicent his
wife (parents of Richard de Camville), dated at Stanton (est.
1176-1191, but probably before 1176) [Loyd p. 29, No. 42[3]]
he m. 1stly Adelicia,
2ndly Millicent of Rethel[8]
aft 1143 Richard married Millicent of Rethel[1],[2].[2]
3 Millicent of Rethel.[1],[2]
Born ca 1110.[2]
shown in CP as Millicent, parentage unknown[1]
received gift of part of Stanton, co. Oxon. from Adeliza of Louvain,
Queen of England, who recognized her as a cousin ["cognata mea"][2]
identification as Millicent of Rethel by Alan B. Wilson[2],[9] :
' Moriarty in TAG xx (Jan, 1944), 255-256, points out that
Alberic, Canon of Huyon-sur-Meuse states that Clarembald de
Rosoy, who m. Elizabeth de Namur after the death of Gervase in
1124, in order to disinherit her, married the only daughter of
Gervase out of the country to a certain noble of Normandy named
Robert Marmion. But Alberic does not give the name of the
daughter or specify which Robert Marmion was her husband. The
daughter of Count Gervase was married about 1132/3, so
chronologically it would more likely be to Robert I than to
Robert II. The mother of Count Gervase of Rethel was Milicent
of Montlhery. Thus Milicent, the wife of Robert I could have
been named for her paternal grandmother.
Queen Adeliza of Louvain, wife of Henry I, gave part of
Stanton, Co. Oxon, to Milicent, wife of Robert Marmion, "cognata
mea." Stanton passed with Isabel, dau. of Milicent and Richard
de Camville to her husband, Robert de Harcourt as her
maritagium, and Stanton Harcourt has subsequently remained in
that family. Queen Adeliza was a second cousin of the daughter
of Gervase, both being descended from Albert III de Namur, d.
1102, & Ida of Saxony.
Moriarty concludes, in view of these arguments, that it was
Robert I who married the daughter of the Count of Rethel, and
that her name was Milicent. This corrects Palmer, "History of
the Baronial Family of Marmion," 1875, Watson (The Genealogist,
n.s., xiv, 70), Clay in "Complete Peerage" (vii, 509), and, of
course, although not then published, ES, iii, 625.'[9]
'Milisent uxor mea', benefactor (together with her husband Robert
Marmion and son Robert) of the monastery of St. Oswald of Bardney
[Mon. Angl. I:633, Num. XI[10]]
she m. 1stly Robert Marmion,
2ndly Richard de Camville[9]
Re: her first husband, Robert Marmion:
seigneur of Fontenay-le-Marmion (destroyed by Count of Anjou, 1140),
and lord of Tamworth, co. Warwick[1]
* placement as wife of Robert de Marmion (d.1181) by P. Theroff is
erroneous[11] - this Robert was her son.
4 NN de Camville.
NN married NN de Ver.
5 NN de Ver.
re: Richard de Camville,
" His mother was a daughter of Alberic de Vere (cf. Rot. de Dom.
84 an note; Comp. Peer. x, App. J., n. j.), as may be inferred from
the descent of his Domesday manor of Hildersham as the marriage
portion of Matilda de Ros, daughter of Richard; Matilda granted
land there to Clerkenwell priory, c. 1190 when her daughter
Beatrice became a nun and the grant was confirmed by
Alberic III de Ver (Cart. Clerkenwell, 24-26).' [DD 378][7]
6 Gervase of Rethel.
died in 1124.[2]
Count of Rethel.
archdeacon of Rheims until father's death (and brother's subsequent
resignation of his title as Count of Rethel, 1118)[12],[2]
first husband of Elizabeth of Namur[2]
7 Elizabeth of Namur.[2]
died aft 1141.[2]
also shown as Isabel
she m. 1stly Gervase de Rethel,
2ndly Clarembald de Rosoy
cf. ES VII:68[13]
10 Aubrey de Ver.
died bef 1113.[1]
Buried in Colne Priory, Essex.[1]
styled Aubrey the chamberlain ('Alberici camerarii') as witness of
royal charter, 1084
received grant from King William of estates of a thegn Wulfwine in
north Essex, south Suffolk and Cambridgeshire; held Kensington in
Middlesex, and other lands of Conan, Count of Brittany
held in chief 14 manors in Essex, with 2 houses and 3 acres in
Colchester, 9 estates in Suffolk, 7 in Cambs. and 2 in Hunts.; and
held Kensington in Middlesex and two properties in Northants. of the
Bishop of Coutances, and lands in Hunts. of the Abbot of Ramsey, and
in Essex of Count Alan of Brittany, at Domesday Book, 1086[1]
a tenant of the Bishop of Coutances in Normandy, 1086. Sheriff of
Berkshire, as 'Aubrey de Berkshire' after 1106[1]
Aubrey married Beatrice[1].
11 Beatrice.[1]
Buried in Colne Priory, Essex.[1]
12 Hugh I of Rethel.
died in 1118.[14]
Count of Rethel ca 1081- ca 1118.
Hugh I married Melisende de Montlhery.
13 Melisende de Montlhery.
14 Godfrey of Namur.
died on 19 Aug 1139.[15],[13]
Count of Namur 1102-1139.
charter of Count Godfrey of Namur, 27 Nov 1121, identifies his family
by Ermessinde of Luxembourg:
' Ego Godefridus comes Namucensis, et Ermessendis comitissa...
annuentibus filiis et filiabus nostris Adalberto, Heinrico, Clementia,
Beatrice, Adelaide.' [ _Actes des comtes de Namur de la premi�re race,
946-1196_, edited by F�lix Rousseau (Brussels, 1936) no. 2 p. 9,
courtesy Peter Stewart[16]]
he m. 1stly Sybil de Chateau-Porcien,
2ndly (as 2nd husband) Ermesinde of Luxembourg
cf. Isenburg I:6, ES VII:68[13]
ES I Band I.2 Tafel 203, 204 (Luxemburg)[15],
ES I Band I.2 Tafel 265 (Die Zahringer)[15]
Godfrey married Sybil de Chateau-Porcien.
15 Sybil de Chateau-Porcien.
first wife[13]
heiress of Chateau-Porcien
1. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of
England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
2. Alan B. Wilson, "Marmions in the Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury,"
Apr 14, 1997, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, reposted as "Re:
Marmion Question", Aug 28, 1999, Alan B. Wilson
{abwi...@uclink4.berkeley.edu}.
3. Lewis C. Loyd and Doris M. Stenton, eds., "Sir Christopher
Hatton's Book of Seals," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1950.
4. Cristopher Nash, "de Camville (Results and Thanks)," June 2,
2000, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, commentary on research of
Dexter Kenfield, pub. May 31, 2000, cites Inquisitions Post
Mortem Henry III, 1904, 294,, item 658 - C. Hen. III. File
44. (11).
5. Nicholas Vincent, "New Charters of King Stephen with Some
Reflections upon the Royal Forests During the Anarchy," The
English Historical Review, Feb. 1999, cites charters of reign
of King Stephen not previously identified, or published:
incl. Confirmation of gifts made by Earl William de Warenne,
PRO, E 159/99 (Memoranda Roll, 18 Edward II), m.149d, recited
before the Exchequer.
6. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
7. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell
Press, Woodbridge, 2002
full title: Domesday Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons
Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166: Pipe Rolls to
Cartae Baronum.
8. J.-J. Vernier, ed., "Chartes de L'Abbaye de Jumi�ges
(v. 825 a 1204)," Rouen: A. Lestringant (Paris: Auguste
Picard), 1916 (Vol II - 1170-1204), Societe de L'Histoire
de Normandie, courtesy GoogleBooks.
9. Alan B. Wilson, "Re: Beauchamps of Salwarpe," 18 January
1999, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cites prior work and
evidences re: Marmion of Tamworth, Alan B. Wilson
{abwi...@uclink4.berkeley.edu}.
10. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London:
Harding & Lepard; and Longman Rees... URL
http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliographia/index.php?function=detail&id=2659
11. Paul Theroff, "The Counts of Rethel," Paul Theroff's Dynastic
Genealogy Files, http://worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/theroff/rethel.txt
13. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas,
http://www.genealogics.com
cites Europ�ische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag
Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, [ES], and other
sources.
14. Chris Phillips, "Baldwins of Jerusalem - Revisited: Part 2,"
Apr 1, 2000, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
15. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europ�ische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge,"
Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio Klostermann, 1999 [4th series],
Band I.2 - Premysliden, Askanier, Herzoge von Lothringen,
die Hauser Hessen, Wurttemberg und Zahringen, First series
by Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series
by Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
16. Peter Stewart, "Kinsfolk of Blanche of Navarre: Brabant,
Vermandois, Baudemont, Aragon, Toulouse," 31 Oct 2006,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cites _Actes des comtes de
Namur de la premi�re race, 946-1196_, edited by F�lix
Rousseau (Brussels, 1936), no. 2 p. 9, and other sources.
On May 2, 11:22�am, "al...@mindspring.com" <al...@mindspring.com>
wrote:
> Doug Smith- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
al...@mindspring.com
younger Richard:
Canville [Camville], Richard de (d. 1191), soldier, was the son of
Richard de Canville (d. 1176) and his second wife, Millicent, widow of
Robert Marmion (d. 1143/4), and came of a family originating at
Canville-les-Deux-Églises near Yvetot in upper Normandy. In England
their most substantial landholding comprised nine knights' fees in the
counties of Leicester, Northampton, and Warwick, in 1166 held from the
honour of Mowbray by Walter de Canville, who was believed to be a
cousin of Richard the elder. The latter also acquired lands in Essex,
Warwickshire, and Somerset, and in addition obtained the manor of
Stanton Harcourt in Oxfordshire as part of the marriage portion of his
second wife, Millicent, a cousin of Adeliza of Louvain (d. 1151),
second wife of Henry I. He served as a leading member of the household
of King Stephen and later of Henry II, by whom he was rewarded with
the custody of valuable estates at Little Stretton in Leicestershire
and Sutton in Northamptonshire. He accounted as sheriff of Berkshire
in 1156, and in 1176 was sent as an envoy to Sicily over the marriage
of Henry II's daughter Joan. He died in Apulia that same year, having
earlier made numerous gifts to the religious, including the Cistercian
abbey of Combe in Warwickshire, which he founded in 1150. He was
succeeded in the bulk of his estate by his eldest son, Gerard de
Canville, his son of his first marriage, to Alice.
Richard de Canville the younger (d. 1191), who followed his father
into the service of Henry II, appears to have inherited his father's
land at Stretton and his mother's interest in the manor of Stanton
Harcourt. In 1189 he attended the coronation of Richard I, and was
appointed one of the commanders of Richard's crusading fleet. He
embarked in the spring of 1190 and negotiated a truce at Lisbon with
the king of Portugal, before arriving with his ships at Marseilles,
where he was joined by King Richard. At Messina in Sicily he was one
of the sureties for a truce betwenn Richard and King Tancred, and in
the summer of 1191 was appointed joint governor of Cyprus, with Robert
of Thornham (d. 1211). However, he fell ill soon afterwards, and
having rejoined the king at Acre in the Holy Land, died there in June
1191. By his marriage to Hawise, daughter of Walter Fitzwilliam, he
acquired the barony of Whalton in Northumberland, but in 1188, in an
exchange agreed with his sister-in-law Constance and her husband,
Ralph de Crammaville, resigned his rights at Whalton in exchange for
land in Leicestershire. His estates at Little Stretton and Stanton
Harcourt passed after his death to his daughter Isabella, married to
Robert de Harcourt.
May identify his wife correctly.
Doug Smith
us...@domain.invalid
> Following is the promised AT.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John
>
> ____________________________
>
> 1 Isabel de Camville.
>
> lady of Stanton, co. Oxon[1]
> (received Stanton as her maritagium from her mother)[2]
>
Thank you very much. There really are useful things going on here.
This matter was most confusing, especially since I have no MArmion
ancestors.
Doug McDonald
al...@mindspring.com
Unfortunately I could not find in Alan Wilson's post the source of his
statement that Staunton Harcourt was given as a maritagium by her
mother. It is certainly clear that the Richard de Camville who d. abt
1176 was married to Adelicia and then Milisent de Rethel.
Then things get a bit muddy to me at least. Like which children were
by which wife, and whether the article by Vincent is correct despite
the obvious chronological difficulty.
Doug Smith
John P. Ravilious
Many thanks for providing the ODNB entries for the Richards (de
Camville).
The matter re: Stretton certainly may be helpful in resolving the
matter. I don't see any evidence that actually puts Gerard, or any
other child of the elder Richard, as being definitely or even possibly
as the issue of the 1st wife (Adelicia). The only items that directly
bear on this are (1) the record dated ca 1176-1191 re: Richard de
Camville and Stanton, co. Oxon (I have assumed to date this was
Richard the father), and (2) that Stanton was the maritagium that
Isabel brought to the Harcourts.
The information provided in VCH Berkshire I cited before
certainly shows the younger Richard as having a son and heir John, who
held Benham after his father's passing. John evidently d. in 1199 or
before; his uncle Gerard de Camville 'intruded upon the manor',
following which King Richard took the manor of Benham back into his
hands and granted it to Hugh Wake [see VCH; the same is given in
Calendarium Genealogicum I:166-7].
I think it is significant that John de Camville's career (short
as it was) is well documented, but was not addressed by Vincent in the
ODNB article. I would not put any great store in his allegation (I
think actually his assumption) that Isabel de Camville was a daughter
of the younger Richard de Camville, given that she would then have
been the heir of John de Camville - the whole subsequent history of
Benham would then make no sense.
Further, if you look at the chronology, it is most likely that
Isabel de Camville was a daughter of the elder Richard.
1. Isabel's daughter Alice de Harcourt was married 1st to John
de Limesi (d.s.p. 1193), and 2nd (as 2nd wife) to Waleran de
Newburgh, 4th Earl of Warwick ca. 1196 [Domesday Descendants,
p. 548; also CP, sub Warwick]. Alice de Harcourt was most
likely born say 1175-1180, and most likely before 1180.
2. We can reasonably assume her mother Isabel de Harcourt was
born say 1155-1165, and most likely before 1160.
3. Millicent de Rethel's 1st husband Robert Marmion was
murdered at Coventry ca. 1144. If we place her marriage to
Richard de Camville in late 1144 or early 1145 at the
earliest, she might have had her eldest son (Gerard ?)
born as early as late 1145; if as alleged, the younger
Richard
de Camville was her elder or only son, and eldest child (we
know she had Isabel at least), then perhaps Richard could
have
been born this early. We can say that Richard was - perhaps
-
born as early as say 1145-1150, and no earlier than 1145.
I think it possible, but an unlikelihood, that the younger
Richard de Camville was (A) born in 1145, (B) a father ca. 1160 or
shortly thereafter and (C) a grandfather ca. 1175-1180. Short of
further evidence, the chronology and the history of the tenure of
Benham, co. Berks. point to Isabel de Camville as being the daughter
of the elder Richard de Camville, and Millicent his 2nd wife.
Cheers,
John
On May 2, 5:24 pm, "al...@mindspring.com" <al...@mindspring.com>
wrote: