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Sibyl de Ferrers, wife of John de Vipont, of Appleby, Westmorland [died 1241]
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celticp...@gmail.com
Aug 11, 2018, 11:45:26 PM8/11/18
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
John de Vipont, of Appleby, Brough under Stainmoor, and King’s Meaburn, Westmorland [born c.1211, died 1241] is alleged to have married Sibyl de Ferrers, daughter of William de Ferrers, Knt., 5th Earl of Derby, by his 1st wife, Sibyl, daughter of William Marshal, Knt., 4th Earl of Pembroke (or Striguil), hereditary Master Marshal. This alleged parentage is discussed in an excellent article by G.W. Watson entitled "The Bohuns of Midhurst" published in The Genealogist n.s. 28 (1912): 1-16, 114-123.
More specifically, Mr. Watson discusses the evidence proving the parentage of another Sibyl de Ferrers who married Sir Frank de Bohun [died 1273], of Midhurst, Sussex. In the text on page 1, he states that Frank and Sibyl his wife were married "before 21 September 1247."
On page 1, footnote 3, he provides the evidence for the date of the marriage of Frank and Sibyl as being before 21 September 1247:
"At which date Sir William de Ferariis [5th Earl of Derby] owed a fine of 300 marks, because Frank de Bohun had married Sibyl, his daughter, without the King's assent or licence (Rot. Fin., 31 Hen. III, m. 2). According to the pedigrees of Vipont, Sibyl had been previously the wife of John de Vipont (who died before 25 July 1241 - Idem., 25 Henry III, m.5), but this is an error. It is true that John de Vipont married a daughter of William comes Ferariis, who gave her in free marriage a tenement in Little Brington and Newbottle, co. Northants, which was inherited by her granddaughter, Idoine de Vipont, wife of Roger de Leyburn (Ch. Inq. p. m. Edw. I, file 39, no. 1). But it is certain that his wife could not have been this Sibyl, nor indeed any daughter of Sibyl la Mareschale, for then the Viponts would have been among the coheirs of Sibyl (the elder), which they were not." END OF QUOTE.
Mr. Watson indicates that Sibyl de Ferrers, wife of Frank de Bohun, has been confused with the wife of John de Vipont. He is certainly correct in stating that John de Vipont's wife cannot have been the same person of Sibyl de Ferrers, wife of Sir Frank de Bohun. But if not, who was she?
The evidence which Mr. Watson cites for John de Vipont's wife being a daughter of "William comes Ferariis" is found in an inquisition post mortem for Roger de Leyburn, the 1st husband of Idoine de Vipont, granddaughter of John de Vipont mentioned above. The Leyburn inquisition is published in Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem 2 (1906): 315-316. The writ for this inquisition is dated 21 Feb. 1283/4. On page 316, the following information is provided regarding Roger de Leyburn's land holdings in Northamptonshire:
"Little Brynton and Newbotle. 13l. 12s. 5d. [rents] from certain tenants, held of the inheritance of Idonea his wife, who is aged 22; which tenement William sometimes earl of Ferars gave to John de Veypunt in free marriage with his daughter, and the heirs of the same John still hold it without any service. He held nothing else in the county." END OF QUOTE
The above record dated 1284 affirms that John de Vipont [died 1241] had earlier married a daughter of William de Ferrers, Earl of Derby, and that John had property in free marriage with his wife. But which Earl William? Given the chronology of the Vipont family, it would appear that John de Vipont's unnamed wife would necessarily be a daughter of William de Ferrers, 4th Earl of Derby [died 1247] and his wife, Agnes of Chester [died 1247], and not daughter of William de Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby [died 1254].
But what is the given name of John de Vipont's wife? Unknown to Mr. Watson, there is a surviving charter dated c.1230-41 of John de Vipont published in Prescott, Register of the Priory of Wetherhal (Cumberland and Westmorland Antiq. & Arch. Society Records 1) (1897): 328–330. The charter reads as follows:
"204. Carta Johannis de Veteri-Ponte facta Monachis de Wederhal de XX karreatis bosci in Winfel.
Omnibus Christi Fidelibus ad quorum notitiam praesens scriptum pervenerit Johannes de Veteri-ponte salutem aeteram in Domino. Noverit universitas vestra quod Ego pro salute animae meae et Sibillae uxoris meae necnon et pro salute animae Roberti de Veteri-ponte Patris mei et pro salute animarum Praedecessorum et Succesorum meorum dedi et concessi et praesenti carta mea confirmavi Ecclesiae Sanctae Mariae Eboraci et Priori et Monachis de Wederhal viginti karreatas de mortuo bosco jacenti capiendas annuatim in bosco meo de Winfel in Westmerlandia, et habendas in liberam puram et perpetuam Elemosinam ..."
The above charter proves that John de Vipont's wife was named Sibyl. As such, it would appear that her name was Sibyl de Ferrers. Given chronological considerations, she would be the aunt of the other Sibyl de Ferrers who married c.1247 Sir Frank de Bohun, of Midhurst, Sussex.
For interest's sake, I've copied below my current file account for John de Vipont [died 1241] and his wife, Sibyl de Ferrers. The following is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from this couple:
Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Charles Barnes, Anne Baynton, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Edward Bromfield, Stephen Bull, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, St. Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, William Crymes, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry Fleete, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne Mauleverer, Joseph & Mary Need, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Olive Welby, John West, Hawte Wyatt.
For further particulars of the Vipont and Ferrers families, please see my book, Royal Ancestry (5 volumes), published in 2013.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + +
7. JOHN DE VIPONT (or VIEUXPONT), of Appleby, and Brough under Stainmoor, and King’s Meaburn, Westmorland, Eyworth, Bedfordshire, Buckland, Buckinghamshire, Prescote, Oxfordshire, Essendine, Rutland, Kimberworth (in Rotherham), Yorkshire, etc., son and heir, born about 1211 (minor in 1228, of age in 1232). On 1 Feb. 1228 Hubert de Burgh was granted custody of the lands and heir of Robert de Vipont until the full age of the heir. On 12 October 1232, notwithstanding that Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent, surrendered to John de Vipont his lands that had been in his custody, the king ordered the sheriff of Westmorland to cause Peter de Rivallis to have full seisin of all corn and chattels of the same lands on the day upon which John received seisin of those lands. He married SIBYL DE FERRERS, daughter of William de Ferrers, Knt., 4th Earl of Derby, by Agnes, daughter of Hugh, Earl of Chester [see FERRERS 6 for her ancestry]. Her maritagium included the manor of Little Brington (in Brington) with Newbottle, Northamptonshire. They had one son, Robert [died 1264]. Sometime in the period, 1230–41, he granted the monks of Wetherhal 20 carucates of woods in Winfel (in Brougham), Westmorland. In 1235 he was sent to escort Alexander II, King of Scots to London. Sometime before 1240 he granted the Hospital of St. Nicholas for lepers in Appleby, Westmorland to Shapp Abbey, Westmorland. JOHN DE VIPONT died shortly before 25 July 1241, when the king ordered that the sheriff of Westmorland take into the king’s hand all lands formerly of John de Vipont.
References:
Coll. Top. et Gen. 1 (1834): 256. Hodgson, Hist. of Northumberland Part II Vol. III (1840): 26–27 (Veteriponte ped.). Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiqs. of Buckingham 2 (1847): 123–126. The Academy 24 (1883): 325–326. Clark, Mediæval Military Architecture in England 1 (1884): 292–293. Taylor, Old manorial Halls of Westmorland & Cumberland (1892): 17–24. Prescott, Reg. of the Priory of Wetherhal (Cumb. & Westmorland Antiq. & Arch. Soc. Recs. 1) (1897): 62 footnote 5, 328–330 (charter of John de Vipont to Wetheral Priory dated 1230–41; charter granted for the health of his soul, his wife Sibyl, and his father, Robert de Vipont). List of Foreign Accounts (Lists & Indexes XI) (1900): 190. Cal. IPM 2 (1906): 315–316 (Inq. post mortem of Roger de Leyburn). C.P.R. 1232–1247 (1906): 255. VCH Bedford 2 (1908): 230–233. VCH Buckingham 2 (1908): 328; 3 (1925): 112–134. C.P.R. 1258–1266 (1910): 327, 371, 551. Misc. Gen. et Heraldica 4th Ser. 3 (1910): 254–261. Genealogist n.s. 28 (1912): 1, footnote 3. Farrer, Honors & Knights’ Fees 1 (1923): 242. VCH Rutland 2 (1935): 250–254. VCH Oxford 10 (1972): 206–210. Power, Norman Frontier in the 12th & Early 13th Cents. (2004): 528–529 (Vieuxpont ped.). Henry III Fine Rolls Project, 16/287; 17/124; 181/18; 18/265; 23/177; 25/568; 25/581; 25/599; 25/592; 26/311; 26/366; 26/573; 26/284; 27/52. National Archives, SC 8/172/8596 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.ukwww.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
John de Vipont, of Appleby, Brough under Stainmoor, and King’s Meaburn, Westmorland [born c.1211, died 1241] is alleged to have married Sibyl de Ferrers, daughter of William de Ferrers, Knt., 5th Earl of Derby, by his 1st wife, Sibyl, daughter of William Marshal, Knt., 4th Earl of Pembroke (or Striguil), hereditary Master Marshal. This alleged parentage is discussed in an excellent article by G.W. Watson entitled "The Bohuns of Midhurst" published in The Genealogist n.s. 28 (1912): 1-16, 114-123.
More specifically, Mr. Watson discusses the evidence proving the parentage of another Sibyl de Ferrers who married Sir Frank de Bohun [died 1273], of Midhurst, Sussex. In the text on page 1, he states that Frank and Sibyl his wife were married "before 21 September 1247."
On page 1, footnote 3, he provides the evidence for the date of the marriage of Frank and Sibyl as being before 21 September 1247:
"At which date Sir William de Ferariis [5th Earl of Derby] owed a fine of 300 marks, because Frank de Bohun had married Sibyl, his daughter, without the King's assent or licence (Rot. Fin., 31 Hen. III, m. 2). According to the pedigrees of Vipont, Sibyl had been previously the wife of John de Vipont (who died before 25 July 1241 - Idem., 25 Henry III, m.5), but this is an error. It is true that John de Vipont married a daughter of William comes Ferariis, who gave her in free marriage a tenement in Little Brington and Newbottle, co. Northants, which was inherited by her granddaughter, Idoine de Vipont, wife of Roger de Leyburn (Ch. Inq. p. m. Edw. I, file 39, no. 1). But it is certain that his wife could not have been this Sibyl, nor indeed any daughter of Sibyl la Mareschale, for then the Viponts would have been among the coheirs of Sibyl (the elder), which they were not." END OF QUOTE.
Mr. Watson indicates that Sibyl de Ferrers, wife of Frank de Bohun, has been confused with the wife of John de Vipont. He is certainly correct in stating that John de Vipont's wife cannot have been the same person of Sibyl de Ferrers, wife of Sir Frank de Bohun. But if not, who was she?
The evidence which Mr. Watson cites for John de Vipont's wife being a daughter of "William comes Ferariis" is found in an inquisition post mortem for Roger de Leyburn, the 1st husband of Idoine de Vipont, granddaughter of John de Vipont mentioned above. The Leyburn inquisition is published in Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem 2 (1906): 315-316. The writ for this inquisition is dated 21 Feb. 1283/4. On page 316, the following information is provided regarding Roger de Leyburn's land holdings in Northamptonshire:
"Little Brynton and Newbotle. 13l. 12s. 5d. [rents] from certain tenants, held of the inheritance of Idonea his wife, who is aged 22; which tenement William sometimes earl of Ferars gave to John de Veypunt in free marriage with his daughter, and the heirs of the same John still hold it without any service. He held nothing else in the county." END OF QUOTE
The above record dated 1284 affirms that John de Vipont [died 1241] had earlier married a daughter of William de Ferrers, Earl of Derby, and that John had property in free marriage with his wife. But which Earl William? Given the chronology of the Vipont family, it would appear that John de Vipont's unnamed wife would necessarily be a daughter of William de Ferrers, 4th Earl of Derby [died 1247] and his wife, Agnes of Chester [died 1247], and not daughter of William de Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby [died 1254].
But what is the given name of John de Vipont's wife? Unknown to Mr. Watson, there is a surviving charter dated c.1230-41 of John de Vipont published in Prescott, Register of the Priory of Wetherhal (Cumberland and Westmorland Antiq. & Arch. Society Records 1) (1897): 328–330. The charter reads as follows:
"204. Carta Johannis de Veteri-Ponte facta Monachis de Wederhal de XX karreatis bosci in Winfel.
Omnibus Christi Fidelibus ad quorum notitiam praesens scriptum pervenerit Johannes de Veteri-ponte salutem aeteram in Domino. Noverit universitas vestra quod Ego pro salute animae meae et Sibillae uxoris meae necnon et pro salute animae Roberti de Veteri-ponte Patris mei et pro salute animarum Praedecessorum et Succesorum meorum dedi et concessi et praesenti carta mea confirmavi Ecclesiae Sanctae Mariae Eboraci et Priori et Monachis de Wederhal viginti karreatas de mortuo bosco jacenti capiendas annuatim in bosco meo de Winfel in Westmerlandia, et habendas in liberam puram et perpetuam Elemosinam ..."
The above charter proves that John de Vipont's wife was named Sibyl. As such, it would appear that her name was Sibyl de Ferrers. Given chronological considerations, she would be the aunt of the other Sibyl de Ferrers who married c.1247 Sir Frank de Bohun, of Midhurst, Sussex.
For interest's sake, I've copied below my current file account for John de Vipont [died 1241] and his wife, Sibyl de Ferrers. The following is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from this couple:
Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Charles Barnes, Anne Baynton, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Edward Bromfield, Stephen Bull, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, St. Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, William Crymes, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry Fleete, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne Mauleverer, Joseph & Mary Need, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Olive Welby, John West, Hawte Wyatt.
For further particulars of the Vipont and Ferrers families, please see my book, Royal Ancestry (5 volumes), published in 2013.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + +
7. JOHN DE VIPONT (or VIEUXPONT), of Appleby, and Brough under Stainmoor, and King’s Meaburn, Westmorland, Eyworth, Bedfordshire, Buckland, Buckinghamshire, Prescote, Oxfordshire, Essendine, Rutland, Kimberworth (in Rotherham), Yorkshire, etc., son and heir, born about 1211 (minor in 1228, of age in 1232). On 1 Feb. 1228 Hubert de Burgh was granted custody of the lands and heir of Robert de Vipont until the full age of the heir. On 12 October 1232, notwithstanding that Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent, surrendered to John de Vipont his lands that had been in his custody, the king ordered the sheriff of Westmorland to cause Peter de Rivallis to have full seisin of all corn and chattels of the same lands on the day upon which John received seisin of those lands. He married SIBYL DE FERRERS, daughter of William de Ferrers, Knt., 4th Earl of Derby, by Agnes, daughter of Hugh, Earl of Chester [see FERRERS 6 for her ancestry]. Her maritagium included the manor of Little Brington (in Brington) with Newbottle, Northamptonshire. They had one son, Robert [died 1264]. Sometime in the period, 1230–41, he granted the monks of Wetherhal 20 carucates of woods in Winfel (in Brougham), Westmorland. In 1235 he was sent to escort Alexander II, King of Scots to London. Sometime before 1240 he granted the Hospital of St. Nicholas for lepers in Appleby, Westmorland to Shapp Abbey, Westmorland. JOHN DE VIPONT died shortly before 25 July 1241, when the king ordered that the sheriff of Westmorland take into the king’s hand all lands formerly of John de Vipont.
References:
Coll. Top. et Gen. 1 (1834): 256. Hodgson, Hist. of Northumberland Part II Vol. III (1840): 26–27 (Veteriponte ped.). Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiqs. of Buckingham 2 (1847): 123–126. The Academy 24 (1883): 325–326. Clark, Mediæval Military Architecture in England 1 (1884): 292–293. Taylor, Old manorial Halls of Westmorland & Cumberland (1892): 17–24. Prescott, Reg. of the Priory of Wetherhal (Cumb. & Westmorland Antiq. & Arch. Soc. Recs. 1) (1897): 62 footnote 5, 328–330 (charter of John de Vipont to Wetheral Priory dated 1230–41; charter granted for the health of his soul, his wife Sibyl, and his father, Robert de Vipont). List of Foreign Accounts (Lists & Indexes XI) (1900): 190. Cal. IPM 2 (1906): 315–316 (Inq. post mortem of Roger de Leyburn). C.P.R. 1232–1247 (1906): 255. VCH Bedford 2 (1908): 230–233. VCH Buckingham 2 (1908): 328; 3 (1925): 112–134. C.P.R. 1258–1266 (1910): 327, 371, 551. Misc. Gen. et Heraldica 4th Ser. 3 (1910): 254–261. Genealogist n.s. 28 (1912): 1, footnote 3. Farrer, Honors & Knights’ Fees 1 (1923): 242. VCH Rutland 2 (1935): 250–254. VCH Oxford 10 (1972): 206–210. Power, Norman Frontier in the 12th & Early 13th Cents. (2004): 528–529 (Vieuxpont ped.). Henry III Fine Rolls Project, 16/287; 17/124; 181/18; 18/265; 23/177; 25/568; 25/581; 25/599; 25/592; 26/311; 26/366; 26/573; 26/284; 27/52. National Archives, SC 8/172/8596 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.ukwww.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
celticp...@gmail.com
Aug 12, 2018, 3:28:14 AM8/12/18
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
As I noted in my previous post, the venerable G.W. Watson stated in his Bohun article that "according to the pedigrees of Vipont," it was alleged that Sibyl de Ferrers, wife of Frank de Bohun, had previously been the wife of John de Vipont. Mr. Watson correctly stated that this was an error.
One place where this claim is made is Nicholson & Burn, History & Antiq. of Westmorland and Cumberland 1 (1777): 271, which source may be viewed at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=zeEuAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA271#v=onepage&q&f=false
Nicholas and Burn state the following:
John de Veteripont ... "married Sibilla daughter of William Ferrars Earl of Derby, and by her had issue a son Robert. He died young, after he had been about 12 or 14 years lord of Westmorland, about the 26th year of king Henry the third. His widow Sibilla was married afterwards to Francis de Bohune, lord of Midhust in Sussex, who founded Cowdry-house there." END OF QUOTE.
It would appear that the confusion over the two women named Sibyl de Ferrers, aunt and niece, goes back to at least 1777 in the published literature.
As I noted in my previous post, the venerable G.W. Watson stated in his Bohun article that "according to the pedigrees of Vipont," it was alleged that Sibyl de Ferrers, wife of Frank de Bohun, had previously been the wife of John de Vipont. Mr. Watson correctly stated that this was an error.
One place where this claim is made is Nicholson & Burn, History & Antiq. of Westmorland and Cumberland 1 (1777): 271, which source may be viewed at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=zeEuAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA271#v=onepage&q&f=false
Nicholas and Burn state the following:
John de Veteripont ... "married Sibilla daughter of William Ferrars Earl of Derby, and by her had issue a son Robert. He died young, after he had been about 12 or 14 years lord of Westmorland, about the 26th year of king Henry the third. His widow Sibilla was married afterwards to Francis de Bohune, lord of Midhust in Sussex, who founded Cowdry-house there." END OF QUOTE.
It would appear that the confusion over the two women named Sibyl de Ferrers, aunt and niece, goes back to at least 1777 in the published literature.
celticp...@gmail.com
Aug 12, 2018, 4:51:43 PM8/12/18
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
Below is a line of descent from King Henry I of England, died 1135, down to Sibyl de Ferrers, wife of John de Vipont [died 1241].
1. Henry I, King of England, died 1135, by an unknown mistress, _____.
2. Robert Fitz Roy, Earl of Gloucester, married Mabel Fitz Robert.
3. Maud of Gloucester, married Ranulph de Gernons, Earl of Chester.
4. Hugh, Earl of Chester, died 1181, married Bertrade de Montfort, died 1227.
5. Agnes of Chester, died 1247, married William de Ferrers, Knt., Earl of Derby, died 1247.
6. Sibyl de Ferrers, married John de Vipont, of Appleby, Westmorland, died 1241.
Below is a line of descent from King Henry I of England, died 1135, down to Sibyl de Ferrers, wife of John de Vipont [died 1241].
1. Henry I, King of England, died 1135, by an unknown mistress, _____.
2. Robert Fitz Roy, Earl of Gloucester, married Mabel Fitz Robert.
3. Maud of Gloucester, married Ranulph de Gernons, Earl of Chester.
4. Hugh, Earl of Chester, died 1181, married Bertrade de Montfort, died 1227.
5. Agnes of Chester, died 1247, married William de Ferrers, Knt., Earl of Derby, died 1247.
6. Sibyl de Ferrers, married John de Vipont, of Appleby, Westmorland, died 1241.
John Higgins
Aug 13, 2018, 12:52:20 AM8/13/18
to
On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 8:45:26 PM UTC-7, celticp...@gmail.com wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
[SNIP]
> The above record dated 1284 affirms that John de Vipont [died 1241] had earlier married a daughter of William de Ferrers, Earl of Derby, and that John had property in free marriage with his wife. But which Earl William? Given the chronology of the Vipont family, it would appear that John de Vipont's unnamed wife would necessarily be a daughter of William de Ferrers, 4th Earl of Derby [died 1247] and his wife, Agnes of Chester [died 1247], and not daughter of William de Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby [died 1254].
>
> But what is the given name of John de Vipont's wife? Unknown to Mr. Watson, there is a surviving charter dated c.1230-41 of John de Vipont published in Prescott, Register of the Priory of Wetherhal (Cumberland and Westmorland Antiq. & Arch. Society Records 1) (1897): 328–330. The charter reads as follows:
>
> "204. Carta Johannis de Veteri-Ponte facta Monachis de Wederhal de XX karreatis bosci in Winfel.
>
> Omnibus Christi Fidelibus ad quorum notitiam praesens scriptum pervenerit Johannes de Veteri-ponte salutem aeteram in Domino. Noverit universitas vestra quod Ego pro salute animae meae et Sibillae uxoris meae necnon et pro salute animae Roberti de Veteri-ponte Patris mei et pro salute animarum Praedecessorum et Succesorum meorum dedi et concessi et praesenti carta mea confirmavi Ecclesiae Sanctae Mariae Eboraci et Priori et Monachis de Wederhal viginti karreatas de mortuo bosco jacenti capiendas annuatim in bosco meo de Winfel in Westmerlandia, et habendas in liberam puram et perpetuam Elemosinam ..."
>
> The above charter proves that John de Vipont's wife was named Sibyl. As such, it would appear that her name was Sibyl de Ferrers. Given chronological considerations, she would be the aunt of the other Sibyl de Ferrers who married c.1247 Sir Frank de Bohun, of Midhurst, Sussex.
>
[SNIP]
The parentage proposed above for Sibyl de Ferrers, wife of John de Vipont, has been in "the published literature" since at least 1928. See Lt.-Col. W. H. Turton, The Plantagenet Ancestry (1928), p. 137. Also, this parentage for Sibyl de Ferrers has been in the Genealogics database since at least June 2009.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00175598&tree=LEO
Leo's update to Genealogics in June 2009 was no doubt prompted by a thread in this group in the same month which clearly distinguishes the two Sibyls. See particularly the post by C. E. Wood in this thread:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/Sdebmx3PpZk
So...this current discussion of Sibyl de Ferrers is not exactly "new news"...
> Dear Newsgroup ~
[SNIP]
> The above record dated 1284 affirms that John de Vipont [died 1241] had earlier married a daughter of William de Ferrers, Earl of Derby, and that John had property in free marriage with his wife. But which Earl William? Given the chronology of the Vipont family, it would appear that John de Vipont's unnamed wife would necessarily be a daughter of William de Ferrers, 4th Earl of Derby [died 1247] and his wife, Agnes of Chester [died 1247], and not daughter of William de Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby [died 1254].
>
> But what is the given name of John de Vipont's wife? Unknown to Mr. Watson, there is a surviving charter dated c.1230-41 of John de Vipont published in Prescott, Register of the Priory of Wetherhal (Cumberland and Westmorland Antiq. & Arch. Society Records 1) (1897): 328–330. The charter reads as follows:
>
> "204. Carta Johannis de Veteri-Ponte facta Monachis de Wederhal de XX karreatis bosci in Winfel.
>
> Omnibus Christi Fidelibus ad quorum notitiam praesens scriptum pervenerit Johannes de Veteri-ponte salutem aeteram in Domino. Noverit universitas vestra quod Ego pro salute animae meae et Sibillae uxoris meae necnon et pro salute animae Roberti de Veteri-ponte Patris mei et pro salute animarum Praedecessorum et Succesorum meorum dedi et concessi et praesenti carta mea confirmavi Ecclesiae Sanctae Mariae Eboraci et Priori et Monachis de Wederhal viginti karreatas de mortuo bosco jacenti capiendas annuatim in bosco meo de Winfel in Westmerlandia, et habendas in liberam puram et perpetuam Elemosinam ..."
>
> The above charter proves that John de Vipont's wife was named Sibyl. As such, it would appear that her name was Sibyl de Ferrers. Given chronological considerations, she would be the aunt of the other Sibyl de Ferrers who married c.1247 Sir Frank de Bohun, of Midhurst, Sussex.
>
The parentage proposed above for Sibyl de Ferrers, wife of John de Vipont, has been in "the published literature" since at least 1928. See Lt.-Col. W. H. Turton, The Plantagenet Ancestry (1928), p. 137. Also, this parentage for Sibyl de Ferrers has been in the Genealogics database since at least June 2009.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00175598&tree=LEO
Leo's update to Genealogics in June 2009 was no doubt prompted by a thread in this group in the same month which clearly distinguishes the two Sibyls. See particularly the post by C. E. Wood in this thread:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/Sdebmx3PpZk
So...this current discussion of Sibyl de Ferrers is not exactly "new news"...
celticp...@gmail.com
Aug 14, 2018, 3:13:19 PM8/14/18
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On Sunday, August 12, 2018 at 10:52:20 PM UTC-6, John Higgins wrote:
< The parentage proposed above for Sibyl de Ferrers, wife of John de Vipont, has < been in "the published literature" since at least 1928. See Lt.-Col. W. H.
< Turton, The Plantagenet Ancestry (1928), p. 137.
Except that Turton got Sibyl de Ferrers' parentage wrong.
< The parentage proposed above for Sibyl de Ferrers, wife of John de Vipont, has < been in "the published literature" since at least 1928. See Lt.-Col. W. H.
< Turton, The Plantagenet Ancestry (1928), p. 137.
DR
John Higgins
Aug 14, 2018, 5:57:01 PM8/14/18
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celticp...@gmail.com
Aug 14, 2018, 6:01:17 PM8/14/18
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
Descendants of John de Vipont [died 1241] and his wife, Sibyl de Ferrers, will doubtless be interested in an interesting article featuring the ancestry of John de Vipont and his mother, Idoine de Builli.
The article is entitled "Descent in the Male Line of the Family of Grazebrook from 1065, with Proofs for each Generation" by George Grazebrook. It is published in Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica, 4th Series, 3 (1910): 106–113, 198–203, 254–261.
The article may be viewed at the following weblinks:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.$c146603;view=1up;seq=122
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.$c146603;view=1up;seq=214
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.$c146603;view=1up;seq=270
In a pedigree on page 261, the author correctly states that John de Vipont [Veteri Ponte] married Sibyl "da. of William de Ferrers, Earl of Derby, who gave them in frank marriage Parva Brynton and Neubotle, Northants."
He does not, however, identify which Earl William was Sibyl's father. Nor does he provide any documentation for the marriage or Sibyl's given name.
Descendants of John de Vipont [died 1241] and his wife, Sibyl de Ferrers, will doubtless be interested in an interesting article featuring the ancestry of John de Vipont and his mother, Idoine de Builli.
The article is entitled "Descent in the Male Line of the Family of Grazebrook from 1065, with Proofs for each Generation" by George Grazebrook. It is published in Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica, 4th Series, 3 (1910): 106–113, 198–203, 254–261.
The article may be viewed at the following weblinks:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.$c146603;view=1up;seq=122
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.$c146603;view=1up;seq=214
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.$c146603;view=1up;seq=270
In a pedigree on page 261, the author correctly states that John de Vipont [Veteri Ponte] married Sibyl "da. of William de Ferrers, Earl of Derby, who gave them in frank marriage Parva Brynton and Neubotle, Northants."
He does not, however, identify which Earl William was Sibyl's father. Nor does he provide any documentation for the marriage or Sibyl's given name.
celticp...@gmail.com
Aug 14, 2018, 8:14:01 PM8/14/18
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On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 3:57:01 PM UTC-6, John Higgins wrote:
< Turton identifies the parents of Sibyl de Ferrers, wife of John de Vipont,
< as William de Ferrers, 4th Earl of Derby, and his wife - the same couple you < say above "would appear to be" the parents of Sibyl. Turton does call the
< 4th Earl's wife Alice rather than Agnes, but CP also calls her by both names < - Alice at CP 3:169 and Agnes at CP 4:196. And CP 14 just confuses it
< further by correcting BOTH references in a contradictory manner. But,
< whether it be Alice or Agnes, it's clearly the same person.
Your confusion withstanding, the given name of the wife of William de Ferrers, 4th Earl of Derby, is well documented as Agnes in contemporary records:
< Turton identifies the parents of Sibyl de Ferrers, wife of John de Vipont,
< as William de Ferrers, 4th Earl of Derby, and his wife - the same couple you < say above "would appear to be" the parents of Sibyl. Turton does call the
< 4th Earl's wife Alice rather than Agnes, but CP also calls her by both names < - Alice at CP 3:169 and Agnes at CP 4:196. And CP 14 just confuses it
< further by correcting BOTH references in a contradictory manner. But,
< whether it be Alice or Agnes, it's clearly the same person.
1. Shaw, Hist. & Antiqs. of Staffordshire 1 (1798): 93 (charter of William de Ferrers, Earl of Derby; charter names his wife, Agnes).
2. Luard, Annales Monastici 1 (Rolls Ser. 36) (1864): 285 (Annals of Burton sub 1247: “Isto anno obiit Wilelmus de Ferrariis, nobilis comes Derbeiae, x. kal. Octobris. Agnes comitissa, uxor ejus, completa quarentena sua, decessit quarto non. Novembris.”).
3. Burton, Chronica Monasterii de Melsa 1 (Rolls Ser.) (1866): 436 (“Cui successit in hereditatem Johannes Scoticus, filius sororis suae. Iste nempe Ranulphus sine liberis decedens quatuor habuit sorores. Quarum .... 3a Agnes nupsit comiti de Derbeye”).
4. Flower, Vis. of Yorkshire 1563–4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 18–20 (Beaumont, Earls of Chester ped.: “Agnes on of theyrs wyff to William Erl Ferrers.”).
5. Round, Calender of Documents Preserved in France 1 (1899): 206 (charter of William de Ferrers, Earl of Derby to Tutbury Priory dated c.1200; charter granted for his soul and that of his wife, Agnes).
6. Lancashire Rec. Office: Clifton of Lytham, DDM 19/3 (charter of Agnes de Ferrers, Countess of Derby) (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk).
A full account of Sir William de Ferrers, 4th Earl of Derby [died 1247], and his wife, Agnes of Chester [died 1247], can be found in Richardson, Royal Ancestry, 2 (2013): 560-561.
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