Hawise (____) Basset: A conjectured identification

[The...@aol.com]

Saturday, 10 September, 2005

Hello All,

In the recent past, Doug Richardson has posted information concerning
statements of kinship involving Hugh le Despenser [1] and Edmund Stafford,
Bishop of Exeter [2]. The threads which developed came to center on the
identification of Hawise, wife of Ralph Basset of Drayton, Lord Basset (d.
1299) whose parentage to date has not been resolved [3]. Three theories as
to Hawise's identity advanced to date would place here as Hawise de Vere
(family of the Earls of Oxford), Hawise de Quincy (wife of Baldwin Wake),
and Hawise le Despenser (recently advanced by Doug Richardson).

While reviewing other issues earlier today, I had occasion to review
details concerning the oft-noted 1347 brass in Elsing, Norfolk for Sir Hugh
de Hastings of Elsing, Gressenhall & c. (d. 1347). This brass shows the
armed figures of 8 weepers, King Edward III and 7 others. While there is
no close relationship between Sir Hugh de Hastings and the King, 6 of the
other 7 are closely related indeed as shown below: 2 nephews, 3 1st cousins,
and one 1st cousin 1x removed. The only individual represented whose
relationship is not otherwise known is Ralph, Lord Stafford.

We know from information provided by Doug in the recent past that Hawise
(de Quincy) Wake was almost certainly not married to Ralph Basset. If my
earlier theory (that Hawise, wife of Ralph Basset, was a known Hawise de
Vere) were correct, Ralph de Stafford and Hugh de Hastings would be 4th
cousins - but only if a simultaneous theory (concerning a conjectured
Despenser descent from Saier de Quincy, Earl of Winchester) was also
correct.
Given the close known relationships of the 1347 brass, and the unlikelihood
at best that the de Vere theory previously advanced is correct, it appears
most likely that Hawise was a member of the Despenser family, and most
likely (from chronological grounds) a daughter of Sir Hugh le Despenser
(k. at Evesham, 4 Aug 1265) and his wife Aline Basset.

The first chart below gives the relationships of the weepers to Sir
Hugh, and the genealogical chart following reflects those relationships
including the conjectured relationship placing Ralph, Lord Stafford as a
2nd cousin of Sir Hugh de Hastings (conjectured relationship shown
thus: _ _ _ _ _ _ ).

Weeper Name ID in Relationship
Chart below

King Edward III [not noted/beyond 5th degree]

Thomas Beauchamp, (A) 1st cousin 1x removed
Earl of Warwick

Hugh le Despenser, (B) 1st cousin
Lord Despenser

Sir John Grey of (C) nephew
Ruthin

Henry, Earl of (D) 1st cousin
Lancaster

Lawrence Hastings, (E) nephew
Earl of Pembroke

Ralph de Stafford, (F) [conjectured] 2nd cousin
Lord Stafford

Almeric de St. Amand, (G) 1st cousin
Lord St. Amand

===========================================================

William de Beauchamp = Maud FitzJohn Hugh le = Aline
E of Warwick I Despenser I Basset
_________________I_______ __________I_ _ _ _ _ _
I <1> I <2> I I
Guy Patrick = Isabel = Hugh le Hawise (Despenser ?)
E of Warwick de I I Despenser = Ralph Basset
I Chaworth I I ex. 1326 I______
____I ___________I I__________________________ I
I I <1> <2> I I I I
THOMAS Maud Isabel = Sir John = Isabel Hugh Margaret Margaret
E OF = Henry de I de I Despenser = John Basset
WARWICK E of Valence I Hastings I ex 1326 de St. = Edmund
(A) Lancs. _________I___ I I Amand Stafford
_______I I I I I I I
I I I I I I I
HENRY Elizabeth John de HUGH HUGH AMAURI RALPH
E OF = Sir Roger de Hastings DE (B) (ALMERIC) STAFFORD
LANCS Grey I HASTINGS (G) (F)
(D) I I
I I
SIR JOHN LAURENCE DE
GREY (C) HASTINGS
(E)

Obviously there is as yet no document or group of documents found to date
which validate this conjecture. Should anyone have relevant comment or
documentation, that would be most welcome.

Cheers,

John

NOTES

[1] D. Richardson et al., <Hugh Despenser's kinsfolk: Basset, Grey, Haudlo,
Keynes, Lacy, Segrave, Warenne>, SGM, 14 Mar 2002 et seq.

[2] D. Richardson et al., <King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund
Stafford>, SGM, 27 Aug 2005 et seq.

[3] Cf. CP II:2, sub _Basset_.

[4] The image of this brass can be accessed through
http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/pic_lib/Elsing-drawing.htm
and also
http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/pic_lib/March2005_brass_of_the_month.htm

* John P. Ravilious

[Jwc...@aol.com]

Dear John,
Could the common denominator be the Fitzwarin family? Hawise
was a popular name with them and Douglas has a Eve (probably Fitzwarin) who
married Henry de Tracy and Thomas de London. her daughter Hawise de London
married 1) Walter de Brewes, 2) Henry de Tuberville 3) Patrick de Chaworth (see
MCA Brewes gen 2 iv p134) Hawise`s half sister Eve de Tracy was married to
Guy de Bryan whose daughter Maud married 1) Nicholas Fitzmartin and 2) Geoffrey
de Camville.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear James,

In reviewing my notes and database this evening, the answer would
appear to be no. The family grouping(s) you noted are ancestry to
Henry, Earl of Lancaster (fl. 1347) via Sir Patrick de Chaworth and his
wife Hawise de London: however, this does not link to Sir Hugh de
Hastings himself.

Further, from a chronological standpoint, Hawise (___) Basset
(grandmother of Ralph, Lord Stafford) was likely born say 1255-1265,
having a grandson Ralph (Stafford) in 1301. Sir Patrick de Chaworth
(d. bef 7 Jul 1283), son of the above couple and 1st husband of Isabel
de Beauchamp (maternal grandmother of Sir Hugh de Hastings) had a sole
surviving daughter and heiress Maud, who m. Henry, Earl of Lancaster
(d. 1345). Hawise, grandmother of Ralph, Lord Stafford, could not have
been a daughter of this marriage.

Hope this is helpful.

Cheers,

John

[Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com]

Dear John ~

Great post today. Most impressive. Your post demonstrates great
creativity in the search for medieval genealogical evidence. Assuming
that the proposed Basset-Despenser connection is valid, doubtless more
evidence like the weepers on the Hastings brass will surface.

Thank you for sharing your interesting findings with all of us. Much
appreciated.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

[Jwc...@aol.com]

Dear Johnand others,
Sorry for not replying sooner.In trying to
locate a small piece of this intricate puzzle I lost sight of the big picture.