Normandy & St.Clair
Carole
I was recently loaned a book on Rosslyn Abbey and the Sinclair family; The Secrets of Rosslyn by Roddy Martine.
>From Chapter 2 pps. 10-11 there are three entries which have me puzzled.
(1) Referring to the treaty between Rollo and Charles of France "....The treaty was signed at St.Clair-sur-Epte, and it is from here that Rollo's family and their descendants took their surname." - is this a common acceptance ? I do not recall any of the children of Rollo being referred to other than "of Normandy" (exempting personal titles)
(2) Referring to William 'the Seemly' Sinclair's mother, Helena St.Clair, she is described as the "6th Duke's sister"; describing Helen and her husband, Walderne(Wildernus) St.Clair as "both grandchildren of the 3rd Duke of Normandy"
A Descendants chart in the front has descending from the 4th Duke 'Helen St.Clair m. cousin Walderne St.Clair'
- who is Helen's mother ?, what line does Walderne St.Clair come from ?
(3) p11 ".....The St.Clairs and their cousin, the Conqueror, were principally related to the Athelings through EMMA ST.CLAIR (my capitals), the Atheling children's great-grandmother and daughter of the 3rd Duke of Normandy, who had not only married the Saxon Aethelred II., ruler of England between 1014 and 1016, but his successor, the Danish Canute." - In all my years of reading history I cannot recall Emma being described as anything else but "Emma of Normandy" - have I been missing something ?
My notes on the family of Rollo and Normandy appear to be missing several points. Could someone point me towards some reading that will fill in the gaps..
Thank you.
Denis Beauregard
wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>Hello Wise Listers,
>
> I was recently loaned a book on Rosslyn Abbey and the Sinclair family; The Secrets of Rosslyn by Roddy Martine.
>
>>From Chapter 2 pps. 10-11 there are three entries which have me puzzled.
>
>(1) Referring to the treaty between Rollo and Charles of France "....The treaty was signed at St.Clair-sur-Epte, and it is from here that Rollo's family and their descendants took their surname." - is this a common acceptance ? I do not recall any of the children of Rollo being referred to other than "of Normandy" (exempting personal titles)
Could "from here" mean "from that day" instead of "from that place" ?
The original event was in France and the agreement was written in
old French and probably commented in French for some centuries. So,
it is quite possible at some time, someone translated more or less
an expression changing the meaning of a sentence like this one.
Otherwise, I can't remember anyone taking the name of a treaty as a
family name.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
taf
> I was recently loaned a book on Rosslyn Abbey and the Sinclair family; The Secrets of Rosslyn by Roddy Martine.
Rosslyn has no secrets. It has some interesting architecture, but
that's it. (Not that that has stopped generations of authors from
inventing secrets, with no more proof than that the complete absence
of evidence proves that it was a secret.)
> >From Chapter 2 pps. 10-11 there are three entries which have me puzzled.
>
> (1) Referring to the treaty between Rollo and Charles of France "....The treaty was signed at St.Clair-sur-Epte, and it is from here that Rollo's family and their descendants took their surname." - is this a common acceptance ? I do not recall any of the children of Rollo being referred to other than "of Normandy" (exempting personal titles)
The children of Rollo bore no surname. In fact, surnames were unheard
of at this time, and all such names that appear are only anachronistic
terms of convenience used by genealogists and historians.
None of Rollo's male-line descendants used a surname derived from St.
Clair, and those female-line descendants whose families may have used
such a name at a later date did so out of pure coincidence.
This supposed connection of the Sinclairs to the Dukes of Normandy is
a falsification.
> (2) Referring to William 'the Seemly' Sinclair's mother, Helena St.Clair, she is described as the "6th Duke's sister"; describing Helen and her husband, Walderne(Wildernus) St.Clair as "both grandchildren of the 3rd Duke of Normandy"
Completely invented. This would make her daughter of Richard II, but
he had no such daughter, nor would the name "Helen" be expected for
such a daughter. Your author is either making it up as he goes along,
or relying on other authors who did so. As to Walderne, I seriously
doubt there is any record of his existence either.
> A Descendants chart in the front has descending from the 4th Duke 'Helen St.Clair m. cousin Walderne St.Clair'
> - who is Helen's mother ?, what line does Walderne St.Clair come from ?
They didn't exist at all, so discussing their line becomes irrelevant.
> (3) p11 ".....The St.Clairs and their cousin, the Conqueror, were principally related to the Athelings through EMMA ST.CLAIR (my capitals), the Atheling children's great-grandmother and daughter of the 3rd Duke of Normandy, who had not only married the Saxon Aethelred II., ruler of England between 1014 and 1016, but his successor, the Danish Canute." - In all my years of reading history I cannot recall Emma being described as anything else but "Emma of Normandy" - have I been missing something ?
>
Emma was never known as St. Clair, nor did the AEthelings (sic)
descend from her. Other than that . . . . .
> My notes on the family of Rollo and Normandy appear to be missing several points. Could someone point me towards some reading that will fill in the gaps..
It would appear not to be your notes which are at fault. Still, try:
Eleanor Searle, Predatory Kinship and the Creation of Norman Power,
840-1066.
David Bates, Normandy before 1066.
taf
Jwc...@aol.com
Emma of Normandy wasn`t the Aethelings` grandmother. She
was the mother of Alfred ,Edward the Confessor and Godiva, wife of Drogo, Count
of Mantes by Aethelraed II, King of England whosr 2nd wife. She was.
His 1st wife was Elgiva , mother of Edmund II, King of England who by Edith
had Edward Aetheling the Exile who died 1057 and married Agatha of elusive
parentage.
Source{ David Williamson " Kings and Queens of Britain" Appendix
B Genealogical Tables p 219 Table 9 Kings of Wessex and all England
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.