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C.P. Correction/Addition: Maud de Beauchamp (died 1369), wife of Geoffrey de Say, 2nd Lord Say
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celticp...@gmail.com
Feb 16, 2020, 4:12:14 PM2/16/20
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Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage 11 (1949): 475–477 (sub Say) includes a good account of Sir Geoffrey de Say, 2nd Lord Say, who died in 1359. Regarding his marriage, the following information is provided:
"He married Maud, daughter of Guy (de Beauchamp), Earl of Warwick, by Alice, daughter of Ralph de Toni. He died 26 June 1359. Maud survived him and died 28 July 1369." END OF QUOTE
In footnote g on page 477, the editor provides the source for the death date of Maud de Beauchamp as Cal. inq. p.m., xii, no. 413. This source was checked and it confirms the death date for Maud as given by Complete Peerage.
The following additional information in footnote g is given regarding Sir Geoffrey's wife, Maud de Beauchamp:
"Maud, wife of Geoffrey de Say, left a will, pr. 1369 (Challenor Smith, Cal. of Lambeth Wills), in which she desired to be buried at the Black Friars, London, 'near Edmund, my beloved husband.' According to Stow (ed. Kingsford), vol. i, p. 341, Maude, wife to Geoffrey de Say, da. to the Earl of Warwick, was buried in the church of the Black Friars, but no clue to the identity of 'Edmund' has been found. She was executor of her husband's will (Cat. Anc. Deeds, vol. iv, no. A7903), and, in 1368 had a grant for life for long service to the King, Queen Philippe, and Isabel, the King's daughter, of 100 marks yearly (Cal. Patent Rolls, 1367-70, p. 76)." END OF QUOTE
The reference to Maud de Say's will probated in 1369 is given as Challenor Smith, Calendar of Lambeth Wills. This citation is to an index of Lambeth Wills published in the Genealogist 6 (1882). In Volume 6, page 219, an entry for Maud de Say's will is found:
“Say, Matilda, wife of Geoffrey. Friars Preachers, London. [Date:] 1369. 106b Whittleseye.” END OF QUOTE.
The implication is that the will of Maud de Say was probated in 1369. However, this is evidently not the case. A transcript of the will of Maud de Say is published in Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1 (1826): 83. This transcript can be viewed at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=GRRLAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA83
Mr. Nicolas states that the will of Maud de Say is dated "Tuesday next after the Feast of the Apostles of Simon and Jude, 1369." This date is 30 October 1369, which is after the known death date of Maud de Say. No date of probate is provided by Mr. Nicolas.
Thus it would appear that Maud de Say's will was dated 30 October 1369, not proven in 1369, as alleged by Complete Peerage. In any event, the will was presumably never probated, which would explain the lack of a date of probate.
My research indicates that in Michaelmas term 1372 Stephen Jugge, administrator of the goods and chattels of Maud de Say, "who died intestate," sued William de Say, Knt., in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 40 marks. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/448, image 210f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no448/aCP40no448fronts/IMG_0210.htm).
As stated by Complete Peerage, Nicolas confirms that Maud de Say requested in her will to be buried at the Black Friars, London 'near Edmund, my beloved husband." In footnote 1 on page 83, Nicolas states "Edmund, mentioned in her will, was her second husband, but his surname does not appear."
There is no evidence advanced either by Complete Peerage or Nicolas as to the order of Maud de Say's marriages. Like Nicolas, I have previously assumed that Edmund was Maud de Say's 2nd husband. My research, however, shows that Maud consistently appears as Maud de Say from the year of Geoffrey de Say's death in 1359 until her own death in 1369:
1. Maud, widow of Geoffrey de Say, was assigned dower 20 August 1359.
2. Acquittance dated 1356 [sic] from Maud de Say, widow and one of the executors of Geoffrey de Say, to her [half]-sister, [Juliana de Leyborne], Countess of Huntingdon. Reference: Desc. Cat. Ancient Deeds 4 (1902): 235.
3. In 1361 she sued John James and Joan his wife and others in the Court of the King’s Bench regarding a trespass.
4. In 1361 she petitioned the king requesting a renewal of the charter of pardon granted to John Martyn, of Wisbech, Cambridgeshire, priest, for the death of Walter de Walsoken.
5. In 1365 she sued William Kyng, of Birling, Kent in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a reasonable account of the time he was her receiver of money.
6. In 1366 she had license to have an oratory in her house in St. Dunstan’s in the East, London.
7. In 1367 Thomas Longspe and his wife, Maud, and Maud his wife, executrix of the will of Richard Shakel, sued Maud, widow of Geoffrey de Say, and Ralph de Norton, administrators of the goods and chattells of Geoffrey de Say, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 45 marks.
8. In 1367 she sued William Kyng, of Berling, Kent, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a reasonable account of his time as her receiver of money.
9. In 1368 she had a grant for life of 100 marks annually for long service to the king, Queen Philippe, and Isabel, the king’s daughter.
If Edmund was Maud de Beauchamp's 2nd husband, the marriage was surely quite brief. The alternative is that Edmund was a hitherto unknown first husband of Maud de Beauchamp. The last option seems the likeliest at this point as Maud was young and unmarried in 1315, and is not known to have married Geoffrey de Say until 1332. The gap between 1315 and 1332 provides a long period for Maud to have married Edmund as her first husband, be widowed, and then remarried to Geoffrey de Say.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Maud de Beauchamp, wife of Sir Geoffrey de Say, 2nd Lord Say:
Dorothy Beresford, Essex Beville, Thomas Booth, Obadiah Bruen, Henry Corbin, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, John Fisher, Thomas Greene, Edmund, Edward, Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Mary Launce, Anne Lovelace, Thomas Lunsford, Samuel & William Torrey, Francis & Hawte Wyatt.
Do you descend from Maud de Beauchamp? If so, I'd appreciate it greatly if you would post your line of descent from her here on the newsgroup.
Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist
Complete Peerage 11 (1949): 475–477 (sub Say) includes a good account of Sir Geoffrey de Say, 2nd Lord Say, who died in 1359. Regarding his marriage, the following information is provided:
"He married Maud, daughter of Guy (de Beauchamp), Earl of Warwick, by Alice, daughter of Ralph de Toni. He died 26 June 1359. Maud survived him and died 28 July 1369." END OF QUOTE
In footnote g on page 477, the editor provides the source for the death date of Maud de Beauchamp as Cal. inq. p.m., xii, no. 413. This source was checked and it confirms the death date for Maud as given by Complete Peerage.
The following additional information in footnote g is given regarding Sir Geoffrey's wife, Maud de Beauchamp:
"Maud, wife of Geoffrey de Say, left a will, pr. 1369 (Challenor Smith, Cal. of Lambeth Wills), in which she desired to be buried at the Black Friars, London, 'near Edmund, my beloved husband.' According to Stow (ed. Kingsford), vol. i, p. 341, Maude, wife to Geoffrey de Say, da. to the Earl of Warwick, was buried in the church of the Black Friars, but no clue to the identity of 'Edmund' has been found. She was executor of her husband's will (Cat. Anc. Deeds, vol. iv, no. A7903), and, in 1368 had a grant for life for long service to the King, Queen Philippe, and Isabel, the King's daughter, of 100 marks yearly (Cal. Patent Rolls, 1367-70, p. 76)." END OF QUOTE
The reference to Maud de Say's will probated in 1369 is given as Challenor Smith, Calendar of Lambeth Wills. This citation is to an index of Lambeth Wills published in the Genealogist 6 (1882). In Volume 6, page 219, an entry for Maud de Say's will is found:
“Say, Matilda, wife of Geoffrey. Friars Preachers, London. [Date:] 1369. 106b Whittleseye.” END OF QUOTE.
The implication is that the will of Maud de Say was probated in 1369. However, this is evidently not the case. A transcript of the will of Maud de Say is published in Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1 (1826): 83. This transcript can be viewed at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=GRRLAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA83
Mr. Nicolas states that the will of Maud de Say is dated "Tuesday next after the Feast of the Apostles of Simon and Jude, 1369." This date is 30 October 1369, which is after the known death date of Maud de Say. No date of probate is provided by Mr. Nicolas.
Thus it would appear that Maud de Say's will was dated 30 October 1369, not proven in 1369, as alleged by Complete Peerage. In any event, the will was presumably never probated, which would explain the lack of a date of probate.
My research indicates that in Michaelmas term 1372 Stephen Jugge, administrator of the goods and chattels of Maud de Say, "who died intestate," sued William de Say, Knt., in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 40 marks. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/448, image 210f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no448/aCP40no448fronts/IMG_0210.htm).
As stated by Complete Peerage, Nicolas confirms that Maud de Say requested in her will to be buried at the Black Friars, London 'near Edmund, my beloved husband." In footnote 1 on page 83, Nicolas states "Edmund, mentioned in her will, was her second husband, but his surname does not appear."
There is no evidence advanced either by Complete Peerage or Nicolas as to the order of Maud de Say's marriages. Like Nicolas, I have previously assumed that Edmund was Maud de Say's 2nd husband. My research, however, shows that Maud consistently appears as Maud de Say from the year of Geoffrey de Say's death in 1359 until her own death in 1369:
1. Maud, widow of Geoffrey de Say, was assigned dower 20 August 1359.
2. Acquittance dated 1356 [sic] from Maud de Say, widow and one of the executors of Geoffrey de Say, to her [half]-sister, [Juliana de Leyborne], Countess of Huntingdon. Reference: Desc. Cat. Ancient Deeds 4 (1902): 235.
3. In 1361 she sued John James and Joan his wife and others in the Court of the King’s Bench regarding a trespass.
4. In 1361 she petitioned the king requesting a renewal of the charter of pardon granted to John Martyn, of Wisbech, Cambridgeshire, priest, for the death of Walter de Walsoken.
5. In 1365 she sued William Kyng, of Birling, Kent in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a reasonable account of the time he was her receiver of money.
6. In 1366 she had license to have an oratory in her house in St. Dunstan’s in the East, London.
7. In 1367 Thomas Longspe and his wife, Maud, and Maud his wife, executrix of the will of Richard Shakel, sued Maud, widow of Geoffrey de Say, and Ralph de Norton, administrators of the goods and chattells of Geoffrey de Say, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 45 marks.
8. In 1367 she sued William Kyng, of Berling, Kent, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a reasonable account of his time as her receiver of money.
9. In 1368 she had a grant for life of 100 marks annually for long service to the king, Queen Philippe, and Isabel, the king’s daughter.
If Edmund was Maud de Beauchamp's 2nd husband, the marriage was surely quite brief. The alternative is that Edmund was a hitherto unknown first husband of Maud de Beauchamp. The last option seems the likeliest at this point as Maud was young and unmarried in 1315, and is not known to have married Geoffrey de Say until 1332. The gap between 1315 and 1332 provides a long period for Maud to have married Edmund as her first husband, be widowed, and then remarried to Geoffrey de Say.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Maud de Beauchamp, wife of Sir Geoffrey de Say, 2nd Lord Say:
Dorothy Beresford, Essex Beville, Thomas Booth, Obadiah Bruen, Henry Corbin, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, John Fisher, Thomas Greene, Edmund, Edward, Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Mary Launce, Anne Lovelace, Thomas Lunsford, Samuel & William Torrey, Francis & Hawte Wyatt.
Do you descend from Maud de Beauchamp? If so, I'd appreciate it greatly if you would post your line of descent from her here on the newsgroup.
Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist
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