Dammartin / Basset marriage
Todd A. Farmerie
The marriage attributed by Stuart (following Evans, following Fowler) of
Aubri I of Dammartin to Joan Basset has been mentioned here recently. I
went back over the Evans article, and (even though Evans himself did not
notice it) Joan could not have been mother of Aubri II.
First, a summary of the Dammartins (from Evans in Gen.Mag. 15:53-63,
21:94):
Manasses, who was killed at Bar in 1037, was younger brother of Hilduin
III de Ramerupt, and son of Hilduin II (d. 992). He probaby was granted
Dammartin as a result of his marriage to Constance of France, daughter
of Robert II and Constance of Provence. He had at least two sons who
followed him, Eudes, who died shortly before 1071, and:
Hugh, Count from 1071 until his death in 1103 (he must have been quite
old). He married Rohais/Roaide de Bulles. In addition to several
daughters, he had son and heir:
Pierre, Count, d. 1107, m. Eustachie, and had a sole son and heir:
Lancelin (de Bulles), d.s.p. ca.1113 (but this may confuse him with
another Lancelin). He appears to have married Clemence de Bar, (if so
this is a case of infant marriage, at least for her), who later in life,
as wife of Renaud de Clermont, still went by the title Countess of
Dammartin.
From the death of Lancelin, it becomes difficult to follow who was
holding the County, but identification with Dammartin passed into the
descendants of the daughters (and perhaps younger sons) of Hugh holding
in England. A Eudes, founder of the Middleshaw line, appears to have
married Basilie, one of the daughters of Hugh, and adopted her surname.
Another daughter, Aelis married first, Aubri de Mello, and had Aubri,
William, Eudes, and perhaps others. She married second, Lancelin de
Beauvais, who is sometimes confused with her nephew. Since he was
exercising a certain control over Dammartin in 1112, it would seem that
Aubri de Mello had died by that time. This is important in dating the
birth of Aubri's children. The eldest child of Aelis and Aubri de Mello
was:
Aubri I, Count of Dammartin, maternal grandson of Count Hugh, also held
in England at Norton and other places. He is said to have been born in
1110, but this seems too late, since his father would appear to have
died by 1112, and there were younger sons. In addition, Aubri appears
as a member of the French royal household 1122-9, suggesting a birth at
least 20 years earlier. He is traditionally said to have married Amice
de Gloucester (this cannot be documented in contemporary sources, but is
chronologically possible. If so it was late in life, and of no
genealogical consequence). He would seem to have been Count in 1166,
and is said to have died ca. 1182. His son and heir was:
Aubri II, Count of Dammartin, who died 1200. His wife Maud de Clermont
was daughter of Renaud II and Clemence, Countess of Dammartin (which has
resulted in much confusion). He had:
1.Renaud, Count of Dammartin, who was deprived of Dammartin by Philip
Augustus
2.Simon, Count, jure uxoris, of Ponthieu
3.Raoul
4.Alice, m. Jean de Trie
5.Agnes, m. William de Fiennes
6.Clemence m. Jacques de St.Omer
7.Juliane m. Hugh de Gournay
This last was identified by G. Herbert Fowler, Publications of the
Bedfordshire Historical Society, 19:85. Fowler identified Juliane's
mother as Joan (Basset). This is chronologically unlikely, and Evans
concluded she was instead wife of Aubri I, and thus may have been mother
of Aubri II (and Stuart, of course, ignores the qualifier and presents
it as fact). In fact, Evans did not look closely enough at his own
chronology, or he could have excluded this possibility.
Count Renaud remarried in 1190, as an adult widower. This places his
birth ca. 1165/70. On the other hand, his supposed grandmother Joan
Basset is thought to have married Aubri I ca.1160 (as her third husband,
the marriage to her second, Simon de Gerardmolins, being dated ca.
1052). While these dates are somewhat uncertain, it is clear that Aubri
I married her late in life (aged 50 or older) not would her status, as a
twice widowed non-heiress already having a male heir, make her an
appropriate first bride for the Count. It is likely that Aubri II was
born 1130/40, 20 years prior to the marriage of Aubri I to Joan. Thus
the mother of Aubri II remains unidentified.
taf
Stewart Baldwin
"Todd A. Farmerie" <ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>From the death of Lancelin, it becomes difficult to follow who was
>holding the County, but identification with Dammartin passed into the
>descendants of the daughters (and perhaps younger sons) of Hugh holding
>in England. A Eudes, founder of the Middleshaw line, appears to have
>married Basilie, one of the daughters of Hugh, and adopted her surname.
>Another daughter, Aelis married first, Aubri de Mello, and had Aubri,
>William, Eudes, and perhaps others. She married second, Lancelin de
>Beauvais, who is sometimes confused with her nephew. Since he was
>exercising a certain control over Dammartin in 1112, it would seem that
>Aubri de Mello had died by that time. This is important in dating the
>birth of Aubri's children. The eldest child of Aelis and Aubri de Mello
>was:
>Aubri I, Count of Dammartin, maternal grandson of Count Hugh, also held
>in England at Norton and other places. He is said to have been born in
>1110, but this seems too late, since his father would appear to have
>died by 1112, and there were younger sons. In addition, Aubri appears
>as a member of the French royal household 1122-9, suggesting a birth at
>least 20 years earlier. He is traditionally said to have married Amice
>de Gloucester (this cannot be documented in contemporary sources, but is
>chronologically possible. If so it was late in life, and of no
>genealogical consequence). He would seem to have been Count in 1166,
>and is said to have died ca. 1182. His son and heir was:
There is another item which appears to further support an earlier date
for Aubri I's birth, as suggested above. According to the account of
the seigneurs de Mello which appears in "Les Seigneurs de Nesle en
Picardie" by Newman, one of Aubri I's younger half-brothers was
Thibaut (son of Lancelin II de Beauvais by Aubri's mother), who was
archdeacon of Beauvais from 1123 to 1166/7. This would appear to
place Thibaut's birth soon after 1100, at the latest, and Aubri, as an
older half sibling, had to have been born even earlier. My data comes
from old notes from Newman's book, to which I no longer have access,
so I am unable to check for further details. As I recall, the book
has copious documentation from the primary sources.
Stewart Baldwin