CP XIV: FitzPayn, Grey, Bryan [VERY LONG!]
Reedpcgen
that Elizabeth de Bryan was the only wife of Robert de Grey alias Fitz Payn of
Codnore. CP XIV must be in error where it states that his wife was Isobel,
daughter of Sir John de Clifford. I have looked at a great deal of material,
but don't have time to post all citations (I'll include a few of the more vital
ones below). That which is included below comes from primary sources,
contemporaneous with the individuals, unless otherwise noted. Because of the
length, I am posting this in more than one part.
First, let's work back from Robert de Ponynges, who was born 3 Dec. 1382. He
was son and heir of Richard de Ponyngs (d. 1387) and his wife Isabel FitzPayn.
Isabel FitzPayn was born about 1363-5, as she was aged 28 or 30 at the death of
her father in 1393 [CIPM 17:77-8, nos. 168-171)]. Isabel (d. 1394) was
daughter and heir of Robert FitzPayn, alias Grey, and his wife Elizabeth de
Briene/Bryan. Robert 'FitzPayn' was a younger son of Richard de Grey of
Codnor, co. Derby, but assumed the surname FitzPayn after being enfeoffed with
large estates by Robert [Lord] FitzPayn, his mother's brother [who died without
surviving male issue].
Robert FitzPayn/de Grey, born about 1321, died in 1393. He must have been
considerably older than his wife Elizabeth, who I conclude was the eldest child
of Sir Guy de Briene/Bryan, Lord Bryan, by his first wife Joan [de Carreu].
Robert was Sir Guy's contemporary (Sir Guy was aged 30 in 1349, or born about
1319), but was a very close associate of Sir Guy and apparently did not marry
until the eldest daughter was old enough.
BRIENE/BRYAN DESCENT:
1. Sir Guy de Bryan/Briene, of Walwayn's Castle, co. Pembroke, and Tor Brian,
co Devon, d. 1349 [CIPM Edw. III].
Children:
i. Sir Guy de Bryan/Briene [see no. 2, below].
ii. Master John de Bryan/Briene, cleric, prebend of Lusk, Dublin, Ireland,
etc. [CPR 1370-4, pp. 92, 417, etc.]
2. Sir Guy de Briene/Bryan, b. ca. 1319 (aged 30 at his father's death), d. 17
Aug. 1390, became one of the leading men of the realm (admiral of the fleet
towards the west, steward of the King's household, ambassador, etc.). He was
created Lord Bryan in 1350. He married (1) Joan [said to be daughter of Sir
John de Carreu], who was living in 1348. He married (2) by 10 July 1350,
Elizabeth de Montagu, daughter of William, Earl of Salisbury, widow of (1) Hugh
[Lord] le Despenser and (2) Giles [Lord] Badlesmere (he died 1338). Elizabeth
died 31 May 1359.
Children by (1) Joan [de Carreu]:
i. Elizabeth de Bryan, m. Robert FitzPayn alias Grey of Codnor.
ii. Margaret de Bryan, m. Hugh de Courtenay, grandson of the Earl of Devon.
Margaret, daughter of Guy de Bryene, was given life interest in a manor by
Hugh, Earl of Devon, on 8 Apr. 1361 [CPR 1361-4]. She and her husband Hugh
(therein stated to be grandson of hte Earl) were mentioned 16 Apr. 35 Edw. III
[1361], Sir Robert le fitz Payn being a witness [CCR 1360-1364, p. 262]. Hugh
de Courtenay d. s. p. 20 feb. 1373/4. [It is stated in Col. Top. et Gen.
3:276, note d, states that margaret married Sir john Erlegh, "by whom she had a
son Sir John Erlegh, whose daughter and heiress Margaret married Sir John St.
Maur.]
iii. Philippe de Bryan, m. Edward de Bohun [son of Sir John, Lord Bohun],
who d. s. p. Jan. 1361/2. Philippe was living 28 July 1368 [but it seems
possible that this Philippe might belong to the previous generation].
Children by (2) Elizabeth de Montagu:
iii. Guy de Bryan/Briene [see no. 3, below].
iv. Sir William de Bryan [Sir William and Philip do not appear in records
until the 1370s], d. s. p. 22 Sep. 1395, m. Joane, who survived him. He had no
surviving issue as his two nieces were found to be his heirs.
v. Philip de Bryan, d. s. p. by 14 feb. 1388.
3. Sir Guy le fitz de Bryene/Bryan, son and heir of Elizabeth, b. say. 1350,
died before his father, ca. 1386, married Alyse de Bures, apparently living 27
Jan. 1393/4 when she was her father-in-law's executrix. Guy, son of Guy de
Bryen, knight "being son and heir of the said Elizabeth ["le Despenser lately
deceased"]" was mentioned 18 Feb. 1377 [CCR 1374-7, p. 481]. As he was son and
heir by the second wife, his brothers Sir William and Philip must also be sons
of Elizabeth.
Children:
i. Philippe, b. ca. 1378 [aged 12 in 1390], d. s. p. [m. (1) John de Ros,
(2) Sir Henry le Scrope].
ii. Elizabeth, b. ca. 1380/1 [aged 9/10 in 1390], m. Sir Robert de Lovell.
They were parents of one surviving child and heir, Maud de Lovell [see no. 4,
below].
4. Maud de Lovell, daughter and heir of Elizabeth de Bryan/Briene, m. (1) Sir
Richard de Stafford, m. (2) as his second wife, John, Earl of Arundel (d.
1435). [CP 2:362 switches the order.]
Child by (1) Sir Richard de Stafford:
i. Avice de Stafford, daughter and heir, b. 4 Dec .1423 ,d. s. p. 3
June/July 1457, m. by 1438 James, Earl of Ormond.
Child by (2) John, Earl of Arundell:
ii. Humphrey, Earl of Arundell, b. 30 Jan. 1429, d. s. p. (unm.) 24 Apr.
1438.
With the death without issue of Maud de Lovell's children, the next right heirs
of Sir Guy, Lord Bryan, were the heirs of his daughters. Chronology and other
circumstances indicate that Elizabeth de Bryan, wife of Robert Fitzpayn alias
de Grey was the eldest of these coheirs.
[continued in part 2]
Reedpcgen
I have seen only one contemporaneous primary record which places Elizabeth,
wife of Robert FitzPayn into the family of Sir Guy de Bryan/Briene. The will
of "Guy de Bryene le fitz" [son of Guy, Lord Bryan] was dated "le vij jo'r de
Juil lan du regne le roy Richard Seconde puis le conqueste septisme." It was
proved the penultimate of March 1386[/7] before Robert de Hatfield, clerk of
Lord Radulfi, Bishop of Sarum [Salisbury]. The will ends, "En tesmoygnaunce q~
ceo est ma darrayne volante a iceste mon testem~t jeo ay mys mon sel jo'r ~t an
susdit'z priaunte trescherment A MON TRESCHE~ FRE~ ROBARD LE FITZPAYN q~ lui
plese sour graunt affiance q~ jeo ay en lui destre aydant de p~form~r mon dit
testement." [Col. Top. et Gen. 3:253-4]
In other words, Guy le fitz calls Robert FitzPayn his very dear/beloved
BROTHER. The terms brother and uncle are distinct, so I conclude that Guy le
fitz knew his relationship to Robert. Robert had not married Guy's aunt, as
Banks and other avere.
This would place Elizabeth de Briene/Bryan as daughter of Sir Guy, Lord Bryan,
by his first wife. Can this be correct? Yes. Elizabeth's daughter and heir
Isabel FitzPayn was not born until 1363-5. Her parents had married 1351-4, but
they had no known surviving issue until nearly ten years later, supporting the
theory that Elizabeth was still a very young in 1354. It is possible that
Elizabeth was born about 1340, possibly earlier if her parents also had an
arranged union in their youth.
Sir Guy, 1st Lord Bryan, was born in or before 1319 ,as he was aged 30 or more
in 1349. He married (1) John [de Carreu], who was still alive 2 Id. Apr. 1347
when "Guy de Briane, knight, lord of Castle Walweyn, and Joan his wife"
received an indult to have a portable altar. [Papal Letters 3:272] "Guy de
Briane and..Elizabeth his wife, late the wife of Giles de Badlesmere" were
mentioned on 10 July 1350 [CCR 1349-1354, p. 191].
As "Elisabeth daughter of Guy de Briane, Knight, damsel [unmarried], of the
diocese of St. Davids" received an indult to choose confesors 17 Kal. Sep. [16
Aug.?] 1351 [Papal Letters 3:450], she must have been daughter by the first
wife. "Robert son of Richard de Grey of Codenore and Elizabeth his wife" were
mentioned on 16 Oct. 1354 [CPR 1354-1358, p. 112]. On 20 Dec. 1354, the
escheator of Somerset and Devon was "to deliver to Robert son of Richard le
Greye of Codenore and Elizabeth, his wife, the manors of Cherleton and Cary,
and to meddle no further with the manors and advowsons of Ceden, Staple and
Wroxhale [CFR 6:417, CCR 1354-60, p. 51]. Robert was then "in the king's
service in parts beyond the sea, in the company of Guy de Bryan." "Sir Robert
Fitz Payn of Codenore and Elizabeth his wife" were mentioned in a deed dated 22
Feb. 29 Edw. III [1355] and "Sir Robert fitz Payn son of Richard le Grey of
Codenore...and Elizabeth his wife" were mentioned in a deed dated Saturday
after St. Mark 31 Edw. III [1357]. [CCR 1354-1360, pp. 185, 391-2.] The last
reference I found for Elisabeth was dated 1 July 1359, and involved Robert Fitz
Payn and Elizabeth his wife and the manor of Wroxhale, co. Dorset [CPR
1358-1361, p. 234].
Col. Top. et Gen. 3:250-78 produces transcripts of many original documents in
French and Latin taken from the escheats [Inquisitions post mortem] and private
collections. I'll touch on what I consider the most relevant.
Charter dated 40 Edw. III [1366]: Robert Fitzpayne, Chevr, granted Sir Guy de
Brian [this could only be Guy, b. ca. 1319] and others [apparently feoffees]
the manors of Ackford Fitzpayne, co. Dorset, Stourton, co. Wilts., and
Brighthampton, Spekington, Staple, and Seden, co. Somerset, with their
advowsons.
Inq. 1 Rich. II [1377], n. 118 -- An inquisition whether it be to the damage of
the King or any other of Guy de Briene, knt., Guy his son [le fitz], knt.,
Robert Fitz Payn, knt., William de Briene [note that Robert is placed before
the brother William], and John de Kentecombe give and assign one messuage in
Poundestoke with the advowson of that church to the chapel of St. Mary,
Slapton, co Devon. Writ dated 10 Dec.
4 Rich. II [1380-1] -- Guy de Brien chivaler grants Philip Brien his son the
manor of Shokerwyke, remainder to William Brien, his son. William Bonville,
Robert Fitz Payne, John Chdeoke, chivalers, John Erle and Edmund Forde were
witnesses.
9 Apr. 3 Rich. II [1380] -- Robert Fitz-Payn, knight, was a witness to a deed
whereby Sir Guy de Briene, knt., junior, and Alicia then his wife, of the manor
of Sutton Poyntz, the remainder, on failure of male issue, to remain to Sir Guy
the father and after to his heirs. Guy the younger "is now dead" and Alice was
in full seisin of the land. The elder Guy confirmed the charter.
There are several records dated to the reign of Henry VIII [ca. 1488] by which
Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland [the direct descendant and senior heir of
Robert de Ponynges], claimed the ancient lands of Lord Bryan were unjustly held
by the heirs of the Earl of Ormond, whose ancestor is stated to have only held
the lands by curtesy [his wife, Avice, last heir of the main line of
Briene/Bryan, having died without issue].
[There had actually been fines which attempted to pass all the lands from the
blood-line to the unrelated Earls of Wiltshire. "Under a settlement made in
1445 the whole of her vast inheritance remained to her husband in fee on her
death s. p. (Dorset Feet of Fines, Dorset Records, vol. x, 1327-1485, p. 322)
CP 10:128, note i.]
A partition of the lands was actually made . Henry, Earl of Northumberland,
Thomas, Earl of Ormond, Sir Edward Ponynges, Knt., and Sir Thomas Seymour,
Knt., were the parties. It was "determyned bitween the said parties that the
said erle of Northumberland is and oweth [ought] to be takyn and reputed as
heir generall to the said Sir Guy de Brian."
The deed of partition was dated 16 Dec. 4 Hen. VII [1488]. Edward Ponynges
claimed his part as he was son of Robert Ponyngs, son of Robert, Lord Ponyngs
[who had entailed part of the estate to his son Robert]. Thomas Seymour [St.
Maur] claimed according to a will he alleged to be that of Elizabeth Lovell,
cousin and heir of the said Guy, and as the direct heir of John Erlee. Thomas,
Earl of Ormond, claimed as brother and heir of James, Earl of Wiltshire, by
reason of diverse fines made to the said Earl by Dame Avice, Countess of
Wiltshire [and Ormond]. The Earl of Northumberland claimed his part as heir
general of Lord Ponynges.
Thomas [Seymour?] was to have as his share the manors of Wroxhall, Ramsham,
Map[er]ton, Childefrome, co. Dorset, and the advowsons of Wroxhall and Ramsham
and the chapel of Childefrome.
The Earl of Ormond was to have the Isle of Londay and manor of Northam, co.
Devon, and Nether Kentescombe, co. Dorset, and the reversion of certain manors.
Edward [Ponynges] was to have the manors of Chellesfeld, Esthall, Faukham, and
Ashe, co. Kent, and the manors of Shokerwyke and Batheneston, etc., in c.
Somerset,
The Earl of Northumberland [Henry Percy] was to have the residue of the lands,
castles and manors, etc. not before appointed, with reversions, etc.
My point is, there would have been no settlement made if there had not been
good reason for it. I suspect the Earl of Ormond agreed to the settlement
because land mayhave been held in tail, fee, or by varioius limitations which
might eventually negate the fines made by Avice, the last direct heir. If the
Earl of Northumberland, as descendant of hte Ponynges, had no believable claim,
I cannot believe he would give up such large holdings.
I have abbreviated much of the above, which went on for several pages. There
is also a partly erroneous genealogy (apparently created or copied in 1529)
which states that Robert Fitzpayne took to wife Margaret, sister of Guy de
Brian, etc. The genealogy states that After the death of Avice [d. 1457], wife
of "James Ormond Comiti Wiltes" without issue, the hereditaments descended to
Alianore, Countess of Northumberland, aas daughter of Richard, son of Robert,
son of Richard, son of Elizabeth [should be Isabel, bu tthe names were
equivalent], daughter of Margaret [should be Elizabeth], sister of the
aforesaid Guy the father. This is obviously either a later fiction or forgery
drawn up in the Tudor period.
Finally [yes, I know], I'll comment on the ClLIFFORD connection. Sir RIchard
de Grey of Codnor (b. 1281/2, d. 1335) marrie Joan Fitz Payne, daughter of Sir
Robert, Lord Fitz Payne (d. 1315), by his wife Isabel de Clifford, apparently
daughter and eventually coheir of Sir John de Clifford of Frampton-on-Severn,
co. Gloucs. "Villa de Frampton et sunt domini ejusdem ville Isabella, que fuit
uxor Roberti filii Pagani, et Willelmus de Bolesdon" (1316) [Feudal Aids
2:266]. So Isabel held Frampton in 1316. Hugh Clifford's _The House of
Clifford from before the Conquest_ states that Sir John de Clifford (d. 1292)
married Margaret Hereward and had three children, (1) Richard de Clifford,
living 1314 (who had three children, Richard, and two daughters, all of whom
entered religious orders), (2) Isabella, living 1303, who married Robert Fitz
Pain, and (3) Margery, living 1314, who married Nicholas de Carroll.
The Victoria County History of Gloucester 10:143-4 [interspersing Hugh
Clifford's work], traces the descent of Frampton from Drew itz Pons (1086), to
his brother Richard, to his son Walter de Clifford, who was father of Richard
de Clifford (d. 1213). He was succeeded by his son and heir Richard, who was
succeeded by Sir Hugh de Clifford (d. 1254) [Clifford, supra, make this Sir
Hugh the last Richard's brother, instead of his son], whose son Sir John de
Clifford is the man I mentioned above.
After Frampton-on-Severn, co. Gloucester passed to Robert FitzPain [1st Lord]
and Isabel his wife, the manor continued, after Robert's death in 1315 (Isabel
held the manor in 1316 and 1320), to his son Robert [2nd Lord FitzPayn] (held
Frampton in 1327). He settled it on his daughter [and eventual heir] Isabel
FitzPayn and her husband John Chideock. The manor continued descending through
their heirs.
Much of the above was written late at night, so I welcome any any comments,
analysis or corrections.
pcr
Reedpcgen
A bit more on the descent of the heirs of Sir Guy de Bryan who occurred in the
1488 partition. I'll concentrate on the two lines following Edward Ponynges
and Thomas St. Maur, since the Earl of Northumberland and Earl of Ormond are
already well known. I have thrown the following together without taking the
time to clean it up, but I hope it may be of some use anyway, since I have
received queries about the Erleigh descent.
POYNINGS:
Sir Edward Poynings, or Ponynges, b. 1459, d. 1521, of Westenhanger, co. Kent,
married Elizabeth/Isabel Scott, of Scott Hall, Kent, whom he married by 1485.
He sided with Henry Tudor, having fled England, but returning with Henry's
forces in August 1485. He became comptroller of the Household, treasurer, Lord
Deputy of Ireland, and Knight of the Garter, and Member of Parliament. Since
he was so favored by Henry VIII, his inclusion in the settlement of 1488 seems
like it would have been likely, whether deserved or not.
Sir Edward was son of Robert Poynings, MP, b. 1419, d. 3 Feb. 1461, of
Maidstone, Kent. He was "carver and sword-bearer" to Jack Cade, and later lead
another rising in Southwark in 1453. He was first husband of Elizabeth Paston
(d. 1 Feb. 1488), daughter of Sir William Paston. After Robert's death, she
married (2) Sir George Browne, MP, of Betchworth, Surrey. Robert was second
son of Robert, Lord Poynings (d. 1446). Lord Robert, b. Okeford [Ackford]
Fitzpaine, co. Dorset, 3 Dec. 1382, was son and heir of Richard de Poynings,
Lord Poynings, by his wife, Isabel, daughter and heir of Robert FitzPan, son of
Sir Richard de Grey, of Codnor, by his wife Joan FitzPayn.
ERLEIGH, ERLE, ST. MAUR:
1. John Erle, or Erleigh, d. 11 Edw. III [1337], holding Erlegh, co. Berks.,
and Durston, Babcary and Beckington, co. Somerset. His wife, Elizabeth, d. 34
Edw. III. The main line apears to have sold their Berkshire lands, whence they
derived their surname, aand settled at Beckington, co. Somerset.
2. John Erleigh, their son and heir, was born at Durston 29 Nov. 6 Edw. III
[1332] (CIPM 10:81-2, no. 198). There are accounts of this descent in Banks'
Baronies in Fee (1843) 2:74 and Collinson's History of Somerset (1791) 2:198-9.
It is said that he was knighted, and that he married MARGARET DE BRIEN,
daughter of Sir Guy de Brien, K. G. Banks cites "MS. voc. Chaos In Coll[ege
of] Arm[s]" for the identification of the wife and her parentage. They are
supposed to be parents of Sir John, Richard, and Philip de Erleigh and three
daughters.
Margaret might have been born say 1340-50, more likely about 1345. This would
fit with her being second daughter of Sir Guy de Bryan/Briene, Lord Bryan. But
that Margaraet's husband Hugh de Courtenay did not die until 1374. This would
make the intervening chronology a little tight, unless the pedigrees are in
error and there was no John who married isabel de Paveley [my generation 3,
next]. It is known from the IPM of John St. Maur (below) that his wife
Margaret was the daughter of John Erlegh, esquire, and her lands prove she was
the Erleigh heiress.
[3. John de Erleigh is stated to have married Isabael de Paveley, daughter of
Sir John de Paveley [?PCC 1393?]. John may have been born any time ca.
1360-70, given his daughter's probable birth date.]
4. Margaret de Erley, or Erle, daughter [and heir] of John de Erleigh, may have
been born about 1385-90, as her son and heir was born in 1410. Margaret is
stated to have married (1) John de St. Maur, second son of Sir Richard de St.
Maur, knight; (2) Sir Walter Sondes, knight; and (3) Sir William de Cheyney,
knight.
That Margaret would have married three knights is believable as she was a great
heiress in her own right. The inquisition post mortem of Margaret who was wife
of William Cheyne, knight, listed parts or the whole of the following: 1/3 of
the manor and advowson of North Molton [St. Maur inheritance], and the advowson
of Blaketoryton, co. Devon; 1/4 of the manor of Westbury, co. Wiltshire; lands
in Crudlyngcote, the manor and advowson of BOKYNGTON, the manor and advowson of
Bakkarc, the manor of Pury [which may have come into the Erleigh family from
Elizabeth, wife of no. 1], the manor and advowson of DURSTON, and lands, etc.,
in Blakeford and Prestlegh, co. Somerset [Cayley and Bailey, CIPM, 21 Hen. VI,
no. 37]. She therefore held the manors and advowsons John and Elizabeth
Erle/Erleigh [generation 1] held at their deaths.
Ela (d. 8 Feb. 1409/10), widow of Richard St. Maur, Sr. [son and heir of
Nicholas and Muriel St. Maur], died leaving issue at least two sons, (1)
Richard (who was already dead without male issue, his heir being his daughter
Alice [she married William, Lord le Zouche]) and (2) John St. Maur, aged 30 at
his mother's IPM 11 Hen. IV [1409]. Among other manors, Ela held the manor and
advowson of North Molton, and the advowson of Blaketoryton.
The IPM of John de St. Maur states that he died Wednesday 16 Oct. 1415. It
also states that he was son of Richard de St. Maur, lord of Castlekary, and
that John's wife, Margaret, yet living [the inquisition was taken 30 mar. 1416]
daughter of John Erlegh, esquire, held land in Blakeford and Prestlegh, and the
advowson of Blakeford jointly, by the grant (levied by fine) of Richard St.
Maur, knight, at the rent of a rose. John also held the manor of North Molton
and the advowsons of North Molton and Blaketoryton. His heir was his son John,
aged 6 in 1416.
5. John St. Maur, son and heir of Margaret, born ca. 1410, is stated to have
married Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Thomas Broke [Brooke], and to have died 17
Hen. VI [before his mother, hence he would not have held her lands]. John's
IPM says he died seised of 2/3 of the manor f North Molton, etc. William
Cheyne and Margaret his wife, 'late wife of John de St. Maur, father of John
named in the writ" held manors and advowsons in dower. John died Thursday 25
Sep. 1438, his son and heir Thomas, was aged 11 in 1438.
The IMP of Elizabeth, widow of John St. Maur, states she d. 6 Aug. 1457, and
that her son and heir Thomas, was aged 26. She held the manor of
Mighelchurche by the gift [charter dated 23 July 1425] of Sir Thomas Broke,
knt., deceased, her father. She also held land in North Molton in dower.
6. Sir Thomas St. Maur, son and heir, b. ca. 1427-1431, is stated to have
married Philippa Hungerford, daughter of Sir Edmund Hungerford. He died 26
Oct. 5 Hen. VII [1489] seised of North Molton, co. Devon, Bakeford, Presteley,
BEKYNGTON, Rode, Credelyngcote, DURSTON, Babcury, and Pury, co. Somerset [CIPM
Hen. VII]. His son and heir John, who is stated in the inquisition to have
married Elizabeth, daughter of Richard Chocke [Choke, knight, of Long Aston,
co. Somerset, Justice of the Comon Pleas], predeseased him, so his heir was
found to be that John's son William, aged 19 or 20.
7. John St. Maur, esquire, born say 1450, died 5 Oct. 1485 at Beckington, co.
Somerset, where there is a MI to him and his wife Elizabeth. He left a will
(PCC 18 Logge), which I have not checked.
8. Sir William St. Maur, b. ca. 1469/70, married Margaret Edgecombe, daughter
of Sir Richard [marriage settlement dated 24 Jan. 1485/6, leaving William in
Richard's care until his majority]. They had a daughter and heir, Joan
Seyntmaur, aged 4/2 at her father's death, who is said to have died without
issue.
So this at least explains the possible descent claimed by Thomas St. Maur in
1488, as represntative of the younger sister and coheir Margaret de
Bryan/Briene.
pcr
Reedpcgen
Richard [Jr.] de St. Maur were all summoned to Parliament by writ, and
therefore held to be Lords St. Maur, none of the detailed inquisitions I
abstracted in the previoius post style them as such.
CP 11:358-62 states, in part, the following:
Nicholas de St. Maur, 1st Lord, summoned 29 July 1314, d. 8 Nov. 1316, m. (2)
Ellen la Zouche, liv. Oct. 1334, 1st dau. & coh. of Alan, Lord La Zouche.
Nicholas de St. Maur, 2nd Lord, fought at Crecy and Calais, summoned 15 Nov.
1351, etc., d. 8 Aug. 1361, m. Muriel Lovel, granddaughter and heir of Richard
Lovel, 1st Lord Lovel of Castle Cary.
Richard de St. Maur, 4th Lord [succeeded his brother Nicholas], summoned 26
Aug. 1380, etc., d. 15 May 1401, m. Ella de St. Lo, elder dau. & coh. of her
father Sir John de St. Lo and his first wife, Alice de Paveley, dau. & coh. of
John de Pavely. She died 1409/10. [It was their second son John de St. Maur,
who married Margaret de Erleigh.]
Richard St. Maur, 5th Lord, summoned 19 June 1402, etc., d. Jan. 1408/9, m.
Mary Peyvre.
Alice St. Maur, posthumous dau., by modern doctrine Baroness Saint Maur and
Lovel, b. 24 July 1409, m. William Zouche, Lord Zouche of Haringworth, who d.
1463.
pcr
Reedpcgen
Devon):
8. Elizabeth Brooke = John St. Maure
9. Joane St. Maur = Walter Blewett
10. Nicholas Blewett [IPM 14 Hen. VIII, mentions father Walter; d. 22 Aug.
1523] = Joan Fitzjames [named husband's IPM]
11. Edith Blewett [of Greenham, co. Somerset] = John Bonville [of Combraleigh,
b. ca. 1470, aged 21 at father's IPM 1491]
12 Humphrey Bonville [s. & h., of Ivybridge] = Joanna Wynslade
13. Edmund Bonville [younger son, of Parva Modbury] = Jane Tregion
14. Richard Bonville[/Banfield/Bonefeild of Modbury]
15. Agnes Bonville [dau. & h.] = Hugh Croker [executor of his wife's cousin
Humphrey Bonville (d. s. p.) in 1593] [d. by 1614, when his father's IPM was
taken]
16. Francis Croker [second son; his elder brother John Croker, of Lineham, co
Devon ,was aged 25 in 1614 (heir of his grandfather); John's appaarently only
child, also named John, died unmarried in 1633/4)] = (---) Pascoe
17. George Croker = Anstice Tripp
18. Tabitha Croker = Francis Fox
19. MARY FOX of Pennsylvania = Andrew Ellicott
I have not checked other sources, but the descent looks possible.
pcr
Reedpcgen
With reference to CP II 361 line 6, XIV:118 says -
"Page 361 line 6 for '30' read '40'". No sources are cited.
CP 2:361 lines 5-6 reads: [Guy de Bryan, 1st Lord Bryan] "suc[ceeded] his
father in 1349, being then aged 30 years old and more...."
If Guy, Lord Bryan, was actually aged 40 instead of 30, his birth would be ca.
1309, making all our chronology fit more easily. Elizabeth could have been
born about 1332, and would indeed be a damsel instead of infant in 1351, and
Margaret could have been born about 1334.
BUT, CIPM 9:282, no. 333 [Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem] contains a
short IPM for Guy de Brian, knight, the elder, for his lands in Hereford and
the adjacent Marches of Wales. It concludes that he held the barony of
Tallagarn, and a knights' fee in Fechirhil in Dungledy. It states he died 17
June 23 Edw. III
[1349], and that Guy de Bryan, knight, his son, was AGED 30 YEARS and more.
If CIPM 9 is in error, I could have wished that CP XIV would have indicated
that it checked the original IPM when it stated 30 should be changed to 40.
pcr
John Carmi Parsons
On 21 Oct 1998, Reedpcgen wrote:
> It is curious to me that thought CP shows that Nicholas, Richard [Sr.], and
> Richard [Jr.] de St. Maur were all summoned to Parliament by writ, and
> therefore held to be Lords St. Maur, none of the detailed inquisitions I
> abstracted in the previoius post style them as such.
The inquisitions would not be expected to style these men "Baron" at this
early date for one simple reason. The legal position that such writs
originated titular baronies is a later one that was not first enunciated
until later in the 14th century, and really only achieved full development
at the hands of peerage lawyers (who else?) in the 19th. A sudden vogue
developed in the 1830s among those who thought they might be the heirs of such
early "Barons," for recovering such titles for themselves by proving that they
were the heirs of the recipients of early individual writs of summons to
parliaments. A goodly number of the men who today appear in CP, Burke's, or
Debrett's as the "first Baron so-and-so" would be mightily surprised to find
out they had become barons without ever knowing anything about it.
This phenomenon is lucidly and thoroughly discussed in Sir Antony Wagner's
superb _English Genealogy_.
John Parsons
Adrian Channing
<snip>
<snip>
I have a note, I think from DNB, that Robert Poynings d. in the 2nd battle
of St Albans (17 Feb 1461). He had an interest in St Margaret's place,
Southwark [now London just south of the Thames]. Almost opposite was the
White Hart Inn where Jack Cade and his Kentish rebels assembled before
their rout in London. Sir George Browne was also in the uprising, like
Robert Poynings, let off, although he was later executed in 1483 for the
support of Duke of Buckingham.
regards Adrian
Adrian (Surrey, UK) ACha...@CompuServe.Com
Reedpcgen
origins. I take the following from Victoria Count History of Somerset, v.
3:135-6, 6:259-60, 283, and Rev. F. W. Weaver's Cartulary of Buckland Priory in
the County of Somerset.
I should note that even the internal accounts of VCH do not match exactly.
Clearly some cleaning up needs to be done from original source materials. But
I chart out the following for those interested:
1. John of Erleigh (brother of Thomas, Archdeacon of Taunton [1164], and of
Bath [1175-85]), d. c. 1162 [by 1165], m. Adela/Alice, liv. 1166. John
received the hundred and manor of North Petherton from Henry I.
2. William of Erleigh, King's Chamberlain, founded Buckland Priory, liv.
1165-1195 [VCH makes this into two Williams ("probably son of William of
Erleigh," so the VCH assumption is not that sound; VCH may have bifurcated this
individual because Collins does), the younger of whom was dead by 1189].
William married Aziria.
3. John de Erleigh, who succeeded at North Petherton ,d. 1199, m. Sibyll [VCH
ommits this generation, and places the younger William in John's place, but
does not mention Sibyll.]
4a. John de Erleigh succeeded either William or John in 1199, was living
1202-1231 [royal chamberlain]. He was succeeded by his BROTHER
4b. HENRY, who continued the line. Henry occurs from 1228 and died in 1272.
5. Philip de Erleigh, succeeded by 1280 (occurs 1272-5), d. 1284-5, m.
Rose/Roesia, liv. 1304-5 (she m. [2] Geoffrey of Wroxhall). Rose held Durston
in dower.
6. Sir John de Erleigh, b. 1269/72, d. 1324 (his wardship had been comitted to
Thomas de Cantelupe, Bishop of Hereford).
7[1]. Sir John de Erleigh, d. c. 1337, m. Elizabeth, d. 34 Edw. III. [This was
generation no .1 in my previous post]. They had a daughter named Isabel.
8[2]. Sir John de Erleigh, b. 29 Nov. 1332 [VCH errs in statng it to be 1322],
knighted 1371, d. c. 1410, served with the Black Prince in Spain.
NOW, VCH Som. 6:259 states that this John's widow, Isabel, gave Durston "to
their only daughter Margaret and to her second husband Sir Walter Sandys"
[citing PRO C139/70, no .32]. "Three years later the manor was held by Isabel,
who by 1431 was the widow of Sir John of Rowdon. She died in 1434, leaving
Durston and the remainder of hte Erleigh inheritance to Margaret" [citing PRO
C139/70, no. 32 (again) and CCR 1429-35, p. 327].
Collins states there was an intervening Sir John who married Isabel de Paveley.
I wonder if Isabel could have been a second wife, or if the records cited by
VCH in the last paragraph specifically state that Margaret was daughter by the
body of Isabel, or just called, 'daughter'--possibly very different things.
Also, I wonder that Sir John had a sister named Isabel who might have been
given interest in a manor, but died without issue.
BUT VCH Som. 3:135-6, states that John "made over the manor to his
father-in-law Sir Guy Brien" [K. G.], and cites CPR 1370-4, pp. 117, 193 [which
I have checked, but it does not state the specific relationship], W. Buckler,
ed., _Ilchester Almshouse Deeds_, no. 62
[I DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO THIS; COULD SOMEONE CHECK IT?],
and Proc. Som. Arch. Soc. ciii. 51 [which is temporarily unavailable to me].
9[4]. Margaret de Erleigh, daughter and heir, m. (1) [John] St. Maur, m. (2)
Sir Walter Sandys, who held the manor of Durstan in right of his wife in 1428,
(3) Sir William Cheyne, who, as did Margaret, died in 1443.
10[5]. VCH 6:260 errs in stating that Margaret's son and heir was Sir Thomas
St. Maur/Seymour, knight, d. 1458. How they could miss the IPMs is alarming.
As per my previous post, John St. Maur, b. ca. 1410, belongs here. He was
father of Sir Thomas.
11[6]. VCH skips this generation, but does call Sir William Sir Thomas's
grandson.
12[7]. Sir William St. Maur/Seymour
13[8]. Joan St. Maur, daughter and heir, m. William Drury, but she died in
1517, leaving the sons of her two aunts as her heirs.
P. S. I checked the Latin will of Elizabeth [Bryan] Lovell (PCC 22 Luffenham),
dated July 1437, proved 1 August 1437. Remember that Sir Thomas St. Maur
presented what he purported to be her will in 1488. The will I read was
definitely that of the heir of Lord Bryan's estate, as she is styled
,'Elizaabeth who was wife of Robert Louell, esquire,' she desired to be buried
in the chaapel of the college of the Blessed Mary at Slapton, co. Devon, a
chantry founded by the Bryan family, and remembered plaes such as Rampsham,
Wraxale, Childefrome, Torbrien, Northam, Tallagham in South Wales, Bures, etc.
But she mentioned no Erleigh or St. Maur, so I can't imagine what use it could
have been to him unless his copy was a fake, including more than the register
copy does. ; )
pcr
Reedpcgen
their only daughter Margaret and to her second husband Sir Walter Sandys"
[citing PRO C139/70, no .32]. "Three years later the manor was held by Isabel,
who by 1431 was the widow of Sir John of Rowdon. She died in 1434, leaving
C139/70, no. 32 (again), and CCR 1429-35, p. 327].
Sir John was born 29 Nov. 1332 [CIPM], but Isabel did not die until 1434 (some
102 years after her husband's birth), according to VCH.
We know that Margaret Erleigh's son and heir John St. Maur was born ca. 1410.
She could have been born about 1385-90. If she were Margaret de Bryan's
daughter and heir (her husband Hugh de Courtenay did not die until 1374,
according to CP), Margaret might have been the first wife, and Isabel [de
Paveley?] a much younger second wife.
But if Isabel was definitey mother of Margaret de Erleigh, this would push
Margaret de Bryan back a generation. Hmmmm.
pcr
Reedpcgen
CP 4:325 states that Hugh de Courtenay, grandson and heir apparent of the Earl
of Devon (his father d. v. p. by 1349) m. (1) Margaret, daughter of Sir Guy de
Bryan, by 1361 [as I have noted]. BUT she must have died before 5 Sep. 1363,
as that is when Hugh received a Papal dispensation to marry Maud de Holand,
daughter of the Earl of Kent. After Hugh's death without issue 20 Feb. 1373/4
(before his grandfather), Maud married, as his first wife, Waleran de
Luxemburg, Count of Ligny and St. Pol.
So Margaret, daughter of Sir Guy de Bryan, K. G., died without surviving issue,
and Margaret, wife of Sir John de Erleigh, must have been a generation earlier,
being daughter of the Sir Guy who died in 1349.
This takes the Erleigh line out of legitimate contention as an heir of Lord
Bryan. If this is the case, and if Elizabeth de Bryan is properly placed as
the 'Lord''s daughter, it would mean Poynings was the only legitimate claimant
for the right through to the Earl of Northumberland.
Hugh de Courtenay's wife, Margaret de Bryan, was granted the manor of Sutton
Courtenay for life by the Earl of Devon in 1361, so checking on it's immediate
whereabouts after 1361 ought to pinpoint when it reverted to the grantor.
pcr
Reedpcgen
Hoare's History of Wiltshire 3:i:3, etc. is a very detailed account of Westbury
Hundred and manors. Westbury was held by Sir John de Paveley (d. 1361), Prior
of St. John of Jerusalem. He died leaving two daughters and coheirs:
(1) Alice de Paveley married Sir John de St. Lo (d. 1374), whose daughter and
coheir Ela de St. Lo married Sir Richard de St. Maur (d. 1400). If you
remember, it was their second son Sir John de St. Maur (d. 1415) who married
Margaret de Erleigh, daughter of John de Erleigh [Collinson says by his wife
Isabel de Paveley, daughter of Sir John].
(2) Joane de Paveley, second daughter and coheir of Sir John and Agnes, married
Sir Ralph de Cheyne. This is born out by a large Latin document Hoare
reproduces in full. Hoare says that Sir Ralph was father of Sir William
Cheyne, who married Margaret [Hoare states elsewhere that this Margaret was
Margaret de Erleigh], and that they were parents of Sir Edward Cheyne [b. 1402]
who carried the line on.
Margaret de Erleigh married (1) Sir John de St. Maur (d. 1415) and was father
of his heir, which we know from Sir John's IPM. She married (2) Sir Walter
Sandys, but had no issue by him. She married (3) Sir William Cheyne [chief
justice], which is stated in her IPM, and in the IPM of her St. Maur son. She
died in 1443.
SANDYS/SONDES:
As we've already covered the St. Maurs, let's turn to the Sandys marriage. Sir
Walter Sandys, M. P., b. ca. 1376, d. 1435, was son of Sir John Sandys (d.
1395) [Governor of Winchester Castle, Sheriff of Hampshire1383] by his wife
Joan de Fifield. At his death, Sir Walter held many manors in Hampshire and
Sussex, including Andevere [Andover], Up Clatford, Enham militis [Knights'
Enham], Ayllefes, Langestoke, Chelwarton and Elfefeld, co. Hants., and
Shermanbury, Kingeston and Berkham, co. Sussex.
Sir Walter married (1) by 1401, Agnes Warrener (d. by 1407), daughter and heir
of Thomas Warrener of North Ashley and Preston Candover, co. Hants, by whom he
had two sons and one daughter. Sir Walter (knighted by 1401) married Margaret
de Erleigh by Aug. 1427. Walter's mother's holdings (the manors she held in
jointure and dower) were worth 147 l. per annum in 1412 (Walter's own lands
were worth about 61 l. per annum in 1412). His first wife was a kinsman of
Bishop Wickham of Winchester, whose will (1403) left about 100 l. to Walters
first wife and her children. As Agnes predeceased her father, it was her
infant son Thomas Sandys who inherited her father's estate in Sep. 1407 (Thomas
came of age in June 1425, and was therefore born 1404) [see Roskell, History of
Parliament 3:303-4].
Sir Walter's second wife, Margaret de Erleigh, received several manors,
including Rowden and Box, co. Wilts., and Beckington, Babcury, Pury and Durston
in co. Somerset at the death of her mother Isabel, wife of Sir John Rouden, in
Nov. 1434. Sir Walter Sandys died 17 June 1435. Margaret, his widow, had an
income of about 252 l. per annum after his death. She died in 1443.
Thomas Sandys, son and heir of Sir Walter by his first wife, died in 1442. By
his second wife, Sibyl (d. 1446), Thomas was father of Sir William Sandys (d.
1496), who married Margaret Cheyne, daughter of Sir John Cheyne of Shurland, in
the Isle of Sheppey, co. Kent. They were parents of William, 1st Lord Sandys.
CHEYNE:
Sir Ralph de Cheyne, M. P., b. ca. 1337, d .1400, was of Brooke, in Westbury,
Wiltshire. He married, beween Jan. and Nov. 1368, Joan de Paveley (b. 14 Nov.
1353, d. by 1400), daughter and coheir of Sir John de Paveley by his second
wife Agnes de la Mare. Sir Ralph was chancellor of Ireland 1383-4. He died 11
Nov. 1400. They had one son, Sir William Cheyne, M. P. [see Roskell 554,
558-9].
Sir William Cheyne, b. a. 1374, d. 1420, m. by July 1401, Cecily (b. ca. 1371,
d. 18 Oct. 1430), younger daughter and coheir of Sir John Stretch, and widow of
Thomas Bonville. Sir William and Cecily received a papal licence to have a
portable alter. He died 27 Sep. 1420, being survived by his wife Cecily. She
wrote her will at Brooke 12 Oct. 1430, desiring to be buried at Westbury next
to her husband [PCC 14 Luffenham]. Her son and heir, Edmund (ancestor of Lord
Willoughby of Brooke/Broke), predeceased her. She settled Pinhoe on her other
son John Cheyne.
So Hoare was in error in stating this Sir William's wife to be Margaret de
Erleigh. She had actually married Sir William Cheyne, the chief justice.
The Paveley descent is as follows [VCH Wilts.], but I don't know how Isabel de
Paveley, alleged wife of John de Erleigh, fits in yet.
1. Reynold de Paveley, liv. 1170-3, 1194, d. c. 1200
2. Walter de Paveley (minor in 1200), d. 1256
3. Reynold de Paveley, d. 1280
4. Walter de Paveley, d. 1323
5. Reynold de Paveley, d. 1347
6. John de Paveley, d. 1361
7b. Joan de Paveley, daughter and coheir (by the second wife), m. Ralph Cheyne
(see above).
7a. Alice, daughter and coheir (by the first wife), m. John de St. Lo, d. 1375.
They had three daughters and coheirs, (1) Joan (m. 1, Sir John Chidiock [d.
1390], and 2, John Bache [d. 1409]), (2) Elizabeth [which name was equivalent
with Isabel], and (3) Eleanor [Ela] de St. Lo.
8. Eleanor/Ela de St. Lo m. (1) Thomas de Bradeston, and (2) Sir Richard de St.
Maur [Lord St. Maur].
9. John de St. Maur, second son, m. Margaret de Erleigh, daughter of John and
Isabel [de Paveley?] de Erley.
Though Margaret de Erleigh, widow of Sir Walter de Sandys and Sir William de
Cheyne, died seised of one fourth of the manor of Westbury, it did not come to
her through her own Paveley inheritance; it had been the holding of her first
husband, John de St. Maur, having been settled on him by his mother Ela
[Eleanor] [de St. Lo] de St. Maur, widow of Sir Richard.
pcr