Ducal kinsfolk: Arthur, Duke of Brittany's kinsman, Robert de Vitré
Douglas Richardson
During the course of research for the book, Plantagenet Ancestry
(2004), I encountered an interesting charter issued by Arthur, Duke of
Brittany, the ill fated nephew of King John, in which Duke Arthur
referred to Robert de Vitré as his kinsman [Reference: J.H. Round,
Calendar of Documents Preserved in France 1 (1899): 473]. At the time,
I was unable to explain the kinship between the two men. I assumed
that the matter would be resolved at some future point.
Since that time, I've done additional research both on the Vitré
family, as well as on kinship relationships stated in charters before
1250. As I've indicated in recent posts, my analysis of pre-1250
charters indicates that acknowledged kinships in that time period
invariably fell within the 4th degree of kindred. As such, it would
appear that Duke Arthur and Robert de Vitré were almost certainly
blood related within the 4th degree. But how?
Reviewing Duke Arthur's ancestry, I find that his only Breton ancestry
(and thus his only likely connection to Robert de Vitré) consists of
paternal grandfather's parents, Alan of Brittany, and his wife, Bertha
of Brittany. From what is known of Bertha of Brittany's immediate
family, it is not likely that the Vitré connection comes through her.
As for Alan of Brittany, his parents, Stephen (or Etienne), Count of
Brittany, and his wife, Hawise, are known to have had a large family of
children, including one alleged daughter, Agnorie, wife of Oliver de
Dinan [see, for example, Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln, 2
(1984): 75 (sub Brittany)]. However, I elsewhere find it stated in
print that Moriarty's Notebooks, Volume 13, identifies the husband of
Agnorie of Brittany as Alan de Dinan, the brother of Oliver de Dinan.
To date, however, I've unable to find any contemporary source which
proves Agnorie's given name, or whether or not she married Oliver or
Alan de Dinan. Nor have I been able to consult Moriarty's Notebooks to
see what evidence he provided to substantiate his identification of
Alan de Dinan's wife.
Although other possibilities may exist, it seems a good bet that
Moriarty is correct that Alan de Dinan's wife was the daughter of Count
Stephen. My research indicates that Alan de Dinan and his wife were
the maternal grandparents of Robert de Vitré, the acknowledged kinsman
of Duke Arthur. If Alan de Dinan's wife was the daughter of Count
Stephen, then Duke Arthur and Robert de Vitré would be related in the
4th and 3rd degrees of kindred as shown below:
l. Stephen, Count of Brittany, died 1135.
2. Alan of Brittany, died 1146.
3. Conan IV, Duke of Brittany, died 1171.
4. Constance, Duchess of Brittany, died 1201, married Geoffrey, son of
King Henry II of England.
5. Arthur, Duke of Brittany, died 1203.
l. Stephen, Count of Brittany, died 1135.
2. [Agnorie?], married Alan de Dinan, died 1148.
3. Emma de Dinan, married Robert de Vitré.
4. Robert de Vitré, priest, died 1209.
Elsewhere, I find that Bibliographie Bretonne, 1 (1971): 539 (sub
Dinan) gives the name of the wife of Alan de Dinan as Murielle, not
Agnorie. If correct, and, if Moriarty has correctly placed Alan de
Dinan's wife as the daughter of Count Stephen, then the name of Count
Stephen's daughter would obviously be Muriel, not Agnorie. Another
good Breton resource, Bio-Bibliographie Bretonne, by René Kerviler
also discusses the life of Alan de Dinan. But this account doesn't
mention the name of Alan de Dinan's wife.
For interest's sake, I've provided a list below of the numerous 17th
Century New World immigrants who descend from Alan de Dinan (died
1148), whose wife is under discussion. Included on this list are two
newly identified immigrants with royal ancestry, namely Dorothy
(Beresford) Brodnax and Margaret (Touteville) Shepard.
Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, William Asfordby, Barbara Aubrey,
Christopher Batt, Henry, Thomas & William Batte, John Baynard,
Marmaduke Beckwith, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, John
Bevan, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston,
Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George,
Giles & Robert Brent, Thomas Bressey, Nathaniel Browne, Obadiah Bruen,
Elizabeth, Martha & Peter Bulkeley, Stephen Bull, Nathaniel Burrough,
Elizabeth Butler, Edward Carleton, Charles Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine,
Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, Matthew Clarkson, William Clopton, St.
Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane,
& Katherine Deighton, Anne Derehaugh, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley,
Rowland Ellis, Agatha, Alice, Eleanor, George Elkington, Jane & Martha
Eltonhead, William Farrar, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry Fleete,
Edward Foliot, Thomas Gerard, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Mary Gye,
Katherine Hamby, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Edmund Hawes, Warham
Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Thomas James, Edmund Jennings, Edmund,
Edward, Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah
Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Henry, Jane &
Nicholas Lowe, Percival Lowell, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Thomas
Lunsford, Simon Lynde, Agnes Mackworth, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne,
Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Oliver Manwaring, Anne & Katherine Marbury,
Elizabeth Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need,
John Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge,
Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry &
William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard,
Elizabeth Saint John, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall,
Anthony Savage, William Skepper, Diane & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna
Somerset, John Stockman, James Taylor, Samuel & William Torrey,
Margaret Touteville, Jemima Waldegrave, John & Lawrence Washington,
Olive Welby, John West, Amy Willis, Thomas Wingfield, Mary Wolseley,
Hawte Wyatt, Margaret Wyatt, Thomas Yale.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1164418122.0...@14g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> During the course of research for the book, Plantagenet Ancestry
> (2004), I encountered an interesting charter issued by Arthur, Duke
> of Brittany, the ill fated nephew of King John, in which Duke Arthur
> referred to Robert de Vitré as his kinsman [Reference: J.H. Round,
> Calendar of Documents Preserved in France 1 (1899): 473]. At the time,
> I was unable to explain the kinship between the two men. I assumed
> that the matter would be resolved at some future point.
>
> Since that time, I've done additional research both on the Vitré
> family, as well as on kinship relationships stated in charters before
> 1250. As I've indicated in recent posts, my analysis of pre-1250
> charters indicates that acknowledged kinships in that time period
> invariably fell within the 4th degree of kindred. As such, it would
> appear that Duke Arthur and Robert de Vitré were almost certainly
> blood related within the 4th degree. But how?
Hello in there....last heard, the great watershed for recognition of kinship
fell in 1225, but now this has shifted back to 1250. Why exactly?
And given that we know of a relationship between Arthur of Brittany and
Robert of Vitré through their common ancestress Arleva, mother of William
the Conqueror - obviously more distant than the degree you are now hopng for
someone else to provide - why disregard this established fact in favour of a
speculation that must involve at least one consanguineous union later on?
And further, if it is necessary to indulge in this pursuit, why can't you
simply look up Moriarty for yourself? Is there no copy available in SLC
nowadays?
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
Mr. Moriarty was a competent researcher who usually did a thorough job
of research. If Mr. Moriarty stated that Alan de Dinan married a
daughter of Stephen, Count of Brittany, he is almost certainly correct.
As I noted in my last post, such a marriage would make Alan de Dinan's
descendant, Robert de Vitré, related to Duke Arthur of Brittany within
the 4th degree of kindred. This degree of kindred is typical of such
kinships that were acknowledged before 1250.
Below is a listing of the works of George Andrews Moriarty available at
the Family History Library in Salt Lake City. As you can readily see,
no copy of Moriarty's Notebooks are available here in Salt Lake City.
I believe the original Notebooks are kept at NEGHS in Boston.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
1. Ancestry of Dr. John Clarke of Newport, Rhode Island
2. The ancestry of Isabel de Bocland
3. The ancestry of William Almey of Lynn, Sandwich and Portsmouth
(R.I.)
4. The genealogical dictionary of Rhode Island : comprising three
generations of settlers who came before 1690 (with many families
carried to the fourth generation)
5. The Gilberts of Clare and Colchester
6. Herodias (Long) Hicks-Gardiner-Porter : a tale of old Newport
7. The Nansiglos family
8. Pedigree of George P. Clark, Esq., of Shannock, R.I. : Clarke of
Westhrope, Suffold, England, and Rhode Island
9. The Plantagenet ancestry of King Edward III and Queen Philippa
10. The Plantagenet ancestry, (Ancestry of Edward III and Queen
Philippa)
11. The Poure family of Oxfordshire
12. The Tallman family
13. Throckmorton pedigree
Douglas Richardson
Below are two charters which mention Robert de Vitré, Precentor of
Paris, the kinsman of Duke Arthur of Brittany. These charters are
taken from the book, Memoirs pour Servir de Preuves à l'Histoire
ecclesiastique et civile de Bretagne, by Dom Hyacinthe Morice, Volume
I, published in 1742.
The first charter below was issued by André [de Vitré], seigneur of
Vitré, in which he mentions his three brothers, Alan, Robert, and
Joscelin.
The second charter below was issued in 1199 by André de Vitré, with
consent of his brother, Robert de Vitré, Precentor of Paris, and Emme
his mother. André de Vitré's deceased father, Robert de Vitré, and
deceased brother, Alan de Dinan, are also named.
As a note of interest, André de Vitré and his brother, Robert de
Vitré, were brothers of Eleanor de Vitré, Countess of Salisbury in
England. André and Robert's other brother, Alan de Dinan, was the
father of Gervaise de Dinan, Countess of Pembroke in England. Alan de
Dinan's widow, Clemence de Fougères, was the wife of Ranulph, Earl of
Chester in England.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Pg. 682: Pitance solemnelle fondée à Savigné par André de Vitré.
Notum sit quod ego Andreas Dominus Vitreii, concedentibus fratribus
meis Alano, Roberto, Joscelino, dedi Abbatiae Savigneii attacheiam
calceiae moldendini de Campo florido, &c. Abbas atuem & Monachi mihi
fideliter coincesserunt ut singulis annis ob memoriam animae patris mei
& matris meae & antecessorum meorum & omnium fidelium defunctorum, una
Pitancia generalis fieret de pane albo, & vino, & piscibus, in festo
sancti Martini hyemalis, &c. Testibus Fulcone Abbate Clarimontis,
Willelmo Abbate Savigneii, Andrea de Borgon, Rogero Britone Monachis,
&c. Tit. de Savigné
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Pg. 771. Donation faite par André de Vitré avec le consentement de
Robert Chantre de Paris son frere. Date: 1199.
Ego Andreas Dominus Vitreii universis fidelibus tam praesentibus quam
fturis notum fieri volo me dedisse & concessisse, consilio & voluntate
& assensu Roberti fratris mei Precentoris Parisiensis & Emmae matris
meae, pro amore Dei & salute animae meae, Roberti etiam patris mei, &
Alani de Dinnanno fratris mei, & omnium antecessorum meorum &
sucessorum vivorum & defunctorum requie, Deo & Monachis sancti Melaniii
Redonensis & Obedientiae Beatae Mariae de Vitreio quitantiam &
libertatem integram perpetualiter habendam de talliis omnimodis de
Radereio & de Montechoan quas praedicti Monachi michi & antecessoribus
meis reddere solebant .... Hoc autem actum est apud Billeium anno ab
Incarnatione Diomini 1199. in octava S. Joannis Evangelistae ... Ad
majorem vero confirmationem ego Robertus de Vitreio sigillum meuma
possui. Titre du Prieuré de Notre Dame de Vitré.
John Higgins
Bretagne mar. Olivier [not Alain] de Dinan, and the couple had two sons and
1 daughter (unnamed). Also, Schwennicke's ESNF 14:136 sub Vitré says that
Emma de Dinan, the mother of the Robert whose relationship is at issue here,
was the dau. of Roland de Dinan (not Olivier or Alain).
There is a very well-sourced database of the Breton nobility available at
www.noblessebreton.fr.st. This resource says that Emma was the dau. of
Alain by an unnamed wife, while Alain's brother Olivier was mar. to Agnorie
de Bretagne, and they did not have a daughter Emma. The database cites
works by Peter Meazey, including a monograph on the Dinan family - perhaps
worth looking into.
Clearly none of the sources say that Emma was the daughter of Agnorie de
Bretagne. So the only source for this allegation is an unchecked reference
in Moriarty's notebooks, as cited in an unidentified print source. It's
hard to see how it could be "a good bet" that "Alan de Dinan's wife was the
daughter of Count Stephen" [sic]. It seems to be "good" only because it
supports the hypothesis of the relationship being investigated - which is
certainly a circular argument.
Dear Newsgroup ~
-------------------------------
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Leo van de Pas
Higgins they are now disconnected.
A few questions remain. Emma's father Roland was he a son of Olivier and
Agnorie? Which would extend the relationship by only one extra generation.
Also there is another link, probably outside Richardson's guidline, and that
is the already pointed out descent from Harleve.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthi...@sbcglobal.net>
To: "Gen-Med" <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 4:28 AM
Subject: Re: Ducal kinsfolk: Arthur, Duke of Brittany's kinsman, Robert de
Vitré
FWIW, Père Anselme's work on the French nobility says that Agnorie de
Bretagne mar. Olivier [not Alain] de Dinan, and the couple had two sons and
1 daughter (unnamed). Also, Schwennicke's ESNF 14:136 sub Vitré says that
Emma de Dinan, the mother of the Robert whose relationship is at issue here,
was the dau. of Roland de Dinan (not Olivier or Alain).
There is a very well-sourced database of the Breton nobility available at
www.noblessebreton.fr.st. This resource says that Emma was the dau. of
Alain by an unnamed wife, while Alain's brother Olivier was mar. to Agnorie
de Bretagne, and they did not have a daughter Emma. The database cites
works by Peter Meazey, including a monograph on the Dinan family - perhaps
worth looking into.
Clearly none of the sources say that Emma was the daughter of Agnorie de
Bretagne. So the only source for this allegation is an unchecked reference
in Moriarty's notebooks, as cited in an unidentified print source. It's
hard to see how it could be "a good bet" that "Alan de Dinan's wife was the
daughter of Count Stephen" [sic]. It seems to be "good" only because it
supports the hypothesis of the relationship being investigated - which is
certainly a circular argument.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 5:28 PM
Subject: Ducal kinsfolk: Arthur, Duke of Brittany's kinsman, Robert de Vitré
Dear Newsgroup ~
John Higgins
rather than Alain or Olivier. I mentioned the ESNF reference simply to
indicate another viewpoint on her parentage - I have no idea if it's right,
and I can't readily identify which Roland de Dinan it's referring to. The
write-up on the Dinan family in Pére Anselme is very skeletal and
unsatisfactory.
I don't think it's clear yet which of the three men was Emma's father -
although I'm inclined to lean toward Alain, by a wife possibly named
Murielle as in the first message in this thread. But it is quite a stretch
to say that Murielle is the same person as Agnorie de Bretagne simply
because Moriarty is said to identify Agnorie [maybe wrongly] as the wife of
Alain.
> hard to see how it could be "a good bet" that "Alan de Dinan's wife was
the
> daughter of Count Stephen" [sic]. It seems to be "good" only because it
> supports the hypothesis of the relationship being investigated - which is
> certainly a circular argument.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
> Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
> To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 5:28 PM
> Subject: Ducal kinsfolk: Arthur, Duke of Brittany's kinsman, Robert de
Vitré
>
>
Merilyn Pedrick
According to my database, you appear to have once again left off James
Cudworth from your list of Colonial immigrants who descend from Emma de
Dinan. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have the descent as follows:
1. Emma de Dinan
2. Eleanor de Vitre
3. Ela fitz Patrick, Countess of Salisbury
4. Ida Longspee
5. Maud de Beauchamp
6. Roger de Mowbray
7. John de Mowbray
8. John de Mowbray
9. John de Mowbray
10. John de Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk
11. Eleanor Mowbray
12. Eudo de Welles
13. Lionel Welles
14. Eleanor Welles
15. Ann Hoo
16. Margaret Copley
17. Edward Lewknor
18. Mary Lewknor
19. Mary Machell
20. James Cudworth
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia
-------Original Message-------
From: Douglas Richardson
Date: 11/25/06 12:02:28
Subject: Ducal kinsfolk: Arthur, Duke of Brittany's kinsman, Robert de Vitré
Dear Newsgroup ~
-------------------------------
linda...@earthlink.net
Another source on this topic is The Charters of Duchess Constance of
Brittany and her Family, 1171-1221 (Boydell, 1999) by Judith Everard
and Michael Jones. On page 196 they say: "Arthur's description of
André's brother Robert (q.v.) as his 'consanguineus' (A9) is
unexplained, since there was no marriage between the ducal dynasty and
the Vitré family in the proceeding generations. Le Baud (Chroniques de
Vitré), p. 27) suggests a solution, in noting that Emma de Dinan was
the daughter of Angnorie de Penthièvre, sister of Alain, father of
Duke Conan IV. Le Baud was, however, mistaken. Angnorie de Penthièvre
was not married to Emma's father, Alain de Dinan-Bécherel, but to his
elder brother, Oliver de Dinan, while the identity of Alain's wife
remains unknown."
After André's death in 1211 his son, André III, was dowried and
married to Arthur's youngest sister, Catherine, but this was eight
years after Arthur's disappearance/death in 1203.
For those interested in Constance's family, there are short bios of
some, but not all family members in the back of the book.
Best, Linda
Peter Stewart
> Dear Peter ~
>
> Mr. Moriarty was a competent researcher who usually did a thorough job
> of research.
Indeed - how extraordinary then that you have not bothered to provide
yourself with a copy of his Plantagenet Ancestry notebooks, given your
"professional" interest in the subject. If you had consulted Moriarty you
might have saved yourself some trouble recently by finding, for instance,
Duchess Ida correctly identified as a daughter of Count Otto II of Chiny.
> If Mr. Moriarty stated that Alan de Dinan married a daughter of
> Stephen, Count of Brittany, he is almost certainly correct.
Not "almost certainly" at all - Moriarty too made mistakes. However, if you
believe him, apparently on rather slight acquaintance, to be so nearly
infallible, it is even more odd that you haven't made the effort to get hold
of a copy.
> As I noted in my last post, such a marriage would make Alan de Dinan's
> descendant, Robert de Vitré, related to Duke Arthur of Brittany within
> the 4th degree of kindred. This degree of kindred is typical of such
> kinships that were acknowledged before 1250.
Is it still 1250, the next day? As questioned - but of course unanswered -
not long ago this watershed in kinship recognition was supposed by you to
occur in 1225. Why the slippage of a quarter of a century?
> Below is a listing of the works of George Andrews Moriarty available at
> the Family History Library in Salt Lake City. As you can readily see,
> no copy of Moriarty's Notebooks are available here in Salt Lake City.
> I believe the original Notebooks are kept at NEGHS in Boston.
Um, the FHL is not conterminous with SLC. I'm sure there are several trained
and professional genealogists in the city who keep their own copies of
Moriarty. If it isn't too late already, you might try being collegial enough
with one of them to borrow the work.
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your post. It's always good to hear from you.
I suspect that Everard and Jones dismissed Le Baud's identification of
Alan de Dinan's wife as daughter of Count Stephen of Brittany if for no
other reason than most all modern secondary sources such as Europaische
Stammtafeln identify Count Stephen's daughter as Agnorie, wife of
Oliver de Dinan (Alan's brother). To date, I have not seen ANY
contemporary evidence to prove that Count Stephen had a daughter named
Agnorie, or that she married Oliver de Dinan.
Without having seen the statements by Moriarty, I suspect Moriarty may
have based his identification of the wife of Alan de Dinan as Count
Stephen's daughter on the source that Everard and Jones cited, namely
Le Baud, Chroniques de Vitré, page 27. I note that Le Baud is
elsewhere cited as a source for the Dinan family by Biographie
Bretonne, but the editor of that work makes no comment on Le Baud's
statement that Alan de Dinan married Count Stephen's daughter. Rather,
the editor states without equivocation that Alan's brother, Oliver de
Dinan, married Agnorie, "daughter of Stephen, Count of Penthievre and
Goello, and of Havoise, Countess of Guincamp." This is puzzling,
needless to say.
Perhaps the confusion here as to which brother married Count Stephen's
daughter may be explained by the fact that Alan and Oliver de Dinan
parted Dinan Castle between them [Reference: René Kerviler,
Bio-Biographie Bretonne]. If correct, then both brothers would be
correctly styled "lord of Dinan." And, if a contemporary record or
chronicle merely states that Count Stephen's daughter married the lord
of Dinan, it would be unclear as to which brother was her intended
husband. Those assuming it was Oliver de Dinan would conclude that it
was Oliver's wife, Agnorie, who was Count Stephen's daughter. Those
concluding Alan was the intended husband would conclude that it was his
wife who was Count Stephen's daughter. Neither identification would be
on sure foundation.
If such is the evidence, I should think, however, that Alan de Dinan
would be the lord of Dinan who was Count Stephen's son-in-law, if for
no other reason than his grandson, Robert de Vitré, Precentor of
Paris, was called "kinsman" by Arthur, Duke of Brittany. If Alan de
Dinan's wife was not Count Stephen's daughter, it would not be easy to
explain this kinship in any other manner.
In this time period (pre-1250), I find that acknowledged kinships were
invariably quite simple, invariably within the fourth degree on both
sides. At the present time in fact, I only know of one exception to
the 4th degree limit, that being a 2nd and 6th degree kinship which was
acknowledged by a young German emperor. In that case, the cousin
acknowledged by the emperor was an aged bishop who was the son of an
earlier emperor. The current emperor was descended from a sister of
the bishop's father. Thus, it was short on the bishop's side (2nd
degree) and long on the emperor's side (6th degree).
Needless to say, the acknowledged kinship between Duke Arthur and
Robert de Vitré certainly deserves further study. Hopefully we can
find the desired reference in Moriarty's Notebooks, Volume 13, to see
exactly what he said and what source(s) he used. Also, Le Baud should
be examined to see what he said and what source(s) he employed.
Douglas Richardson
Contemporary charter evidence exists which proves that Emme, wife of
Robert de Vitré, was the sister of Roland de Dinan (died c. 1185),
seigneur of Dinan. There is also contemporary charter evidence which
proves that Roland de Dinan was the son and heir of Alan de Dinan (died
1148). This Alan de Dinan (died 1148) was the brother of Oliver de
Dinan (died 1150), the husband of Agnorie, alleged daughter of Count
Stephen of Brittany.
We're currently discussing Moriarty's claim that Count Stephen's
daughter actually married Alan de Dinan, rather than his brother,
Oliver de Dinan. This claim is supported by Le Baud, Chroniques de
Vitré, page 27. If correct, it would explain why Alan de Dinan's
grandson, Robert de Vitré, Precentor of Paris, was called "kinsman" by
Duke Arthur of Brittany, a known descendant of Count Stephen.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah.
Leo van de Pas wrote:
> I used to have the links as shown by Douglas Richardson but thanks to John
> Higgins they are now disconnected.
>
> A few questions remain. Emma's father Roland was he a son of Olivier and
> Agnorie? Which would extend the relationship by only one extra generation.
> Leo van de Pas
taf
> If such is the evidence, I should think, however, that Alan de Dinan
> would be the lord of Dinan who was Count Stephen's son-in-law, if for
> no other reason than his grandson, Robert de Vitré, Precentor of
> Paris, was called "kinsman" by Arthur, Duke of Brittany. If Alan de
> Dinan's wife was not Count Stephen's daughter, it would not be easy to
> explain this kinship in any other manner.
Ah. Stephen and Arthur must be related through Alan's wife, and we know
this because Stephen and Arthur were related. Stated with perfect
circularity.
It is only once one finds out what the evidence actually is that one
should draw conclusions based on it, let alone make suppositions about
unseen evidence based on what you desire it to demonstrate.
> In this time period (pre-1250), I find that acknowledged kinships were
> invariably quite simple, invariably within the fourth degree on both
> sides.
Invariable . . . ., except when it wasn't. What is the relationship
between Blanche of Navarre and Henry? You certainly haven't found one
within your 4th degree limit. Do we get to simply ignore the fact that
this couple appears not to match your rule, and go on claiming
invariability?
As has been pointed out before, you are begging the question.
> Needless to say, the acknowledged kinship between Duke Arthur and
> Robert de Vitré certainly deserves further study. Hopefully we can
> find the desired reference in Moriarty's Notebooks, Volume 13, to see
> exactly what he said and what source(s) he used.
We? Who you callin' "we", pilgrim? Presumably, you mean, "hopefully
someone else will look this up".
> Also, Le Baud should
> be examined to see what he said and what source(s) he employed.
Go to it, but you may want to take into account when he lived and
worked before expecting full footnotes and bibliography.
taf
Douglas Richardson
Below are two charters which issued by Roland de Dinan (died c. 1185),
seigneur of Dinan, which Roland was the maternal uncle of Robert de
Vitré, Precentor of Paris, and of Eleanor de Vitré, Countess of
Salisbury in England. Roland de Dinan (died c. 1185) was the brother
of Robert de Vitré's mother, Emme. These charters are taken from the
book, Memoirs pour Servir de Preuves à l'Histoire ecclesiastique et
civile de Bretagne, by Dom Hyacinthe Morice, Volume I, published in
1742.
The first charter below is the foundation charter for Beaulieu Abbey in
Megrit issued by Roland de Dinan. Morice provides no date for this
charter. Bio-Bibliographie Bretonne and Biographie Bretonne, however,
both date the foundation of the abbey as having taken place in 1170.
In the second charter below, Roland de Dinan makes a donation to
Marmoutiers Abbey. In this charter, Roland names his nephew [nepote
meo], Alan de Vitré, who he states he has named to be his heir after
his death of all his lands. He also mentions his deceased father, Alan
de Dinan.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
pg. 663: Fondation de l'Abbaye de Beaulieu en Megrit. [Date: 1170].
Quoniam aetas mortalium labilis est & caduca hac igitur ratione
inductus ego Rollandus de Dinanno Dominus Dinanni omnibus in Christo
fidelibus notificare curavi me pro salute animae meae parentum &
antecessorum meorum in honore Dei & B.M. Virginis Abbatiem fundavisse,
de Ordine S. Augustini, de assensu Domini Alberti tunc Macloviensis
Episcopi, in terra mea, in loco qui vocatur Bellus-locus, ad opus octo
Canonicorum officium Sacerdotale ibidem exercentium. Dedi etiam eidem
Abbatiae & Canonicis ibi Deo servientibus terram ubi sita est Abbatia
cum stagno & molendino liberam & quietam ab omni jurisdictione mea &
successorum meorum; dedi etiam & concessi eisdem Canonicis sine
retinentia aliqua quidquid in terra mea per donationem, eleemosinam aut
emptionem adipisci poterunt. Ipsosque & eorum homines ab omni pedagio,
costuma, panagio, boutelagio, & omni alia exactione quacumque à me &
successoribus meis liberos & immunes in futurum esse volo; dedi etiam
eisdem totum nemus meum de Querinan, Buafteriam, & demenium meum de
Treauden cum omnibus pertinentiis. Volo etiam & concedo, quod ipsi
habeant & recipiant de hominibus meis ad terram suam hospitandam, &
quod conventionem hanc in terra & mercatis meis prout homines mei
habent. Concedo eis & confirmo quidquid habent in Britannia & Anglia
ex donatione mea & subditorum meorum, nichil ad me retinens in
praedictis. Ut autem haec dona rata sint in perpetuum, presentem
Cartulam sub his testibus decrevi muniendam. Herveo de Guité & Herveo
Hamonis. Roberto & G. Villico. Petro Hamonis. Eustachio. Alano
Langevin. Petro & Alano de Barra. Rad. Alano Louel & quampluribus
aliis. Titre de Beaulieu en Megrit.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
pg. 664: Donation faite à Marmoutiers par Rolland de Dinan.
Dignum, &c. Ego Rollandus de Dinanno concedente Alano de Vitreio
nepote meo post obitum meum terrae meae haerede futuro, pro salute
animae meae & pro salute Alani de Dinanno patris mei dono & concedo Deo
& Monachis Majoris-Mon. meam partem decimae de Ploasne quae me
continget, &c. Hoc autem totum factum est in Camera mea aulae
Becherelli, & ibi feci hoc donum & illud tradidi in manu Petri de
Dinanno Monachi Majoris Mon. cum cultello Jo. Loisel famuli mei. Hujus
rei testes sunt isti. Ego Rol. de Dinanno, Herveus de Guiteio.
Boisellus filius Rufferii. Matheus le Goz. Radulfus de Quibriac.
Oliver. de Bellac. Robertus de Corcelo. Rad. Guel. Rad Pie-de-rat.
Alanus meus nepos. Ogerius meus Capellanus, Johan. Loisel. De
Monachis Petrus de Dinanno. Rad. Prior de Becherello; &c. Titre de
Marmoutiers.
WJho...@aol.com
pedr...@ozemail.com.au writes:
<< 6. Roger de Mowbray
7. John de Mowbray
8. John de Mowbray
9. John de Mowbray
10. John de Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk
11. Eleanor Mowbray >>
In this section you have one extra John compared to me.
Here is what I have with dates
Eleanor Mowbray "eldest daughter" b abt 25 Mar 1364
John, 4th Lord /Mowbray/ of Axholme, co Lincs. b 25 Jun 1340
John, 3rd Lord /Mowbray/ of Thirsk b 29 Nov 1310
John, 2nd Lord /Mowbray/ "said to have been born 4 Sep 1286" (see also AR8,
Line 18A, pg 29)
Roger, Lord /Mowbray/ 1295 "Minor in 1266"
Will Johnson
Merilyn Pedrick
Dear Will
Yes, I appear to have slipped in an extra John. Sorry for the mistake. My
database says the same as yours.
Merilyn
-------Original Message-------
From: WJho...@aol.com
Date: 11/27/06 16:32:00
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Ducal kinsfolk: Arthur, Duke of Brittany's kinsman, Robert de
Vitré
Douglas Richardson
In the course of my research on the Dinan and Vitré families of
Brittany, I've continued to encounter various connections between the
Dinan and Vitré families to English families of similar rank. One
Vitré female whose parentage has previously eluded me is Maud de
Vitré, first wife of Henry (II) de Pomeroy (died 1194), of Berry
Pomeroy, Devon, nephew of Reynold Fitz Roy, Earl of Cornwall [see
Vivian, Visitations of the County of Devon (1895), pg. 605]. Maud de
Vitré's maiden name and marriage to Henry (II) de Pomeroy is attested
by a charter of their son and heir, Henry (III) de Pomeroy, to St.
Michael's Mount, Cornwall in which Henry (III) de Pomeroy refers to
himself as "Henry de Pomeroy son of lady Maud de Vitré." An abstract
of this charter is presented below:
"Grant in pure and perpetual alms by Henry de Pomeray, son of Matilda
de Viteri, to the priory, of rents in Boscawen in St. Buryan and in
Treliver (? Trelew). Date: c. 1194-1207.
Carta Henrici de Pomereia filij Matildis de Viteri de decem solidis uno
obolo minus scilicet sex solidos et nouem denarios et obulum in
Boscawen et tres solidos et duas denarios in Trelyuer.
Sciant presentes et futuri quod ego Henricus de Pomereia filius domine
Matildis de Viteri concessi et presenti carta mea confirmaui deo et
sancto Michaeli et monachis apud montem sancti Michaelis de Cornubia
ibidem deo seruientibus pro salute mee et antecessorum meorum in puram
et perpetuam elemosinam decem solidos vno obulo minus scilicet sex
solidos et nouem denarios et obolum in Boscawen et tres solidos et duos
denarios in Treliuer reddituum annuatim ad duos terminos scilicet ad
festum sancti Jacobi et ad festum sancti Michaelis sicud carta domini
Henrici de Pomereia patris mei quaque inde habent eis testatur. Hiis
testibus. Odone filio Frawini. Willelmo capellano de Eglospenbro.
Willelmo de Teuton. Henrico de Binull'. Osberto Tremino. magistro
Michaele et multis aliis." [Reference: P. L. Hull, ed., The Cartulary
of St. Michael's Mount (Devon & Cornwall Record Society, n.s. 3)
(1962): 18-19].
An indication of Maud de Vitré's parentage is found in the Pipe Rolls
for 1194, which record shows that Henry de Pomeroy, son of Maud,
rendered account of 700 marks to have his inheritance in England and
abroad. Henry de Pomeroy's pledges include various people, among them
being Robert de Vitré and William de Botreaux. The latter invidual,
William de Botreaux, is one of Henry de Pomeroy's known relatives. My
experience with other Pipe Roll records involving such pledges
indicates that pledges were often near relatives to the person in
question.
An abstract of the actual Pipe Roll entry is presented below.
"Henricus de Pomnereio r.c. de DCC m. pro habenda hereditate sua citra
mare et ultra cum beneuolentia R. per plegium Roberti de Viteri, et
Osberti f. Herberti . et Nicholai de Chaueincurt . Nicholai de Meriet .
et comitis Rogeri le Bigot . et Galfridi [de Say] et Galfridi f. Petri
. et comitis de Clara . et Willelmi de Boterell . et episcopi Heref' .
et Hugonis de Hersin . et Simonis de Belcamp . et Robert Deuwias. In
thes. C et xxx li. Et debet CCC et xxxvj li. et xiij s. et iiij d."
[Reference: Doris M. Stenton, ed., The Great Roll of the Pipe for the
Sixth Year of the Reign of King Richard the First Michaelmas 1194 (Pipe
Roll 40) (Pipe Roll Soc. n.s. 5) (1928): 169].
Robert de Vitré in this generation was the brother of the well known
Eleanor de Vitré, Countess of Salisbury in England, mother-in-law of
William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury. Robert de Vitré was canon of
Saint-Julien of Le Mans, and Precentor of Notre Dame of Paris,
1197-1208. He was granted the castle of Langeais in Touraine by his
kinsman, Duke Arthur of Brittany, in 1199 [Reference: Charles Travis
Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 4 (1935): 74]. Robert de Vitré had
land interests in England. Sometime before 1196, Robert and his
mother, Emme de Dinan, were in possession of the manor of Burton by
Thigden (or Burton Plessy) [in Burton Latimer], Northamptonshire,
formerly held by Emme's brother, Roland de Dinan; this manor
escheated to the crown in 1196 [Reference: VCH Northampton 3 (1930):
181-182]. He was likewise given the manor of Cheveley, Cambridgeshire
by his brother, André de Vitré, which manor subsequently passed to
his niece, Gervaise de Dinan, and her husband, Richard Marshal, Earl of
Pembroke [Reference: VCH Cambridge 10 (2002): 46].
Although more evidence would be desirable, it seems likely that Maud de
Vitré, wife of Henry II de Pomeroy, was the sister of the above named
Robert de Vitré, Precentor of Paris. As such, she would appear to be
the daughter of Robert de Vitré, Sr., seigneur of Vitré in Brittany,
by his wife, Emme, daughter of Alan de Dinan.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants who descend from Maud de Vitré, wife of Henry (II) de
Pomeroy. The immigrants below include the newly identified Jane
Greene, wife of William Pole (or Poole), of Massachusetts.
William Bladen, Elizabeth Bosvile, Charles Calvert, Jane Greene (two
descents), George Reade, Olive Welby, Thomas Wingfield.
A descent from Maud de Vitré down to William Bonville, Lord Bonville,
is presented below, which descent is taken from Holly Forest Tamer's
database at the following weblink:
http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=tamer&id=I21803&ti=5538
1 *Maud de Vitré b: ABT 1146
+ *Henry II de Pomeroy b: BEF 1146 d: AFT 1193
2 *Henry III de Pomeroy b: ABT 1168 d: 1207
+ *Alice de Vernon b: ABT 1168 d: 1206
3 *Henry IV de Pomeroy b: ABT 1192 d: 1220
+ *Joan de Valletort b: ABT 1195
4 *Henry V de Pomeroy b: ABT 1220 d: 12 JUL 1281
+ *Isolde de Pyn b: ABT 1245 d: 1311
5 *Joan de Pomeroy b: ABT 1268
+ *Geoffrey d' Aumerle b: ABT 1266 d: ABT 1321
6 *William d' Aumerle b: ABT 1295 d: 1335
+ *Isabel de Meriet b: ABT 1295
7 *William d' Aumale b: ABT 1300 d: 1362
+ *Agnes (Helen\Elen) de Meriet b: ABT 1300
8 *Margaret d' Aumale d: 25 MAY 1399
+ *William Bonville d.14 FEB 1407/1408
9 *John Bonville b: 1371 d: 21 OCT 1396
+ *Elizabeth Fitz Roger d. 10 APR
1414
10 *William Bonville, d. 18 FEB
1460/1461
+ *Margaret de Grey b: ABT 1397
+ Isabella Kirkeby (mistress not
wife) b: ABT 1410
Douglas Richardson
not Holly Forest Tamer. My apologies for the typo.
DR
Douglas Richardson
It appears that you've given us an incorrect address for the Breton
nobility website. The correct address is:
http://www.noblessebretonne.fr.st/
While the genealogies recorded in this database are generally accurate,
they are not well sourced. Under the account for Alan de Dinan, for
example, I note the database cites only three works as sources, namely
Jones (1987), Meazey (1997), and Meazey again (2005). Nothing
whatsoever published before 1987 is cited. That includes
Bio-Bibliographie Bretonne, by René Kerviler, and Bibliographie
Bretonne, which two works would surely be standard reference works for
early Breton families. By sharp comparison, Kerviler's account of Alan
de Dinan provides no less than eight sources, including Morice, who
wrote the hallmark history of early Brittany.
Elsewhere I note that the Breton nobility database is entirely missing
Maud de Vitré (wife of Henry de Pomeroy), Iseult de Soligny [or Dol]
(wife of Sir Ralph Daubeney), and Maud of Brittany (wife of Walter de
Gant), all of which women have English descendants. I find this bias
against English families is often found in French works. Inadequate
treatment is also given to Eleanor de Vitré, Countess of Salisbury in
England. Among other deficiencies, I note her third husband, William
Fitz Patrick, is called William Devereux, a name by which he was never
known. Her fourth marriage is entirely absent. Only one child is
assigned to Countess Eleanor, although she actually had several
children. And, only one source dated 2001 is provided for this
account. As for Robert de Vitre, Precentor of Paris, whose kinship to
Duke Arthur was the beginning topic of this thread, no mention is made
of Robert's other church office, Canon of Saint-Julien of Le Mans.
Again, as with Countess Eleanor, only one source published in 2001 is
given for this account. Surely many sources both modern and ancient
could be cited for this individual.
On the whole, I can say in all candor that this database is quite
lacking in source citation. However, as with all modern genealogical
databases on the internet, the website certainly has its merits. Thank
you for bringing this database to our attention, John. Much
appreciated.
John Higgins
you've got it right below.
As to whether it's well-sourced, it's a matter of degree, I suppose. It's
always desirable to have more sources, and databases (like published works)
are frequently incomplete. But the Breton database can certainly be
described as "well-sourced" in comparison to the database of Holly Forrest
Tamer you've recently cited, which appears to have NO source citations
whatsoever. And BTW the latter database is seriously incomplete in the
ancestry of Maud de Vitré - a fact which you failed to note when you cited
it. It's easy to criticize virtually any online database, but to criticize
one while citing another without pointing out its limitations is hardly
responsible - not to say hypocritical.
I wonder if there's any support for the descent from Maud de Vitré to
William Bonville which you posted from this flawed database - with
inaccuracies since noted by another poster. As a start (not necessarily
conclusive), Maud herself doesn't appear in in ESNF's pedigree of the Vitré
family. In addition, the Pomeroy descent in this database disagrees with
that shown in another source you cite - Vivian's edition of the Devon
visitations - again with no note of the discrepancy. Is this database
really to be considered reliable?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: Ducal kinsfolk: Arthur, Duke of Brittany's kinsman, Robert de
Vitré
Dear John ~
http://www.noblessebretonne.fr.st/
Douglas Richardson
In your previous post, you flatly stated that the Breton nobility
website was a well sourced database. That was your opinion, not a
fact. We all have opinions. And, you're certainly entitled to your's.
However, by any stretch of the imagination, the Breton nobility
database is poorly sourced. In fact, in my cursory review of the
database, I've found several accounts with NO source citation at all!
One such account is Rohese, wife of Henry (II) de Pomeroy, who is
incorrectly identified as a bastard daughter of King Henry I of England
[see the database account: Rohesia de Normandie]. Rohese was actually
the daughter of Herbert Fitz Herbert, by Sibyl Corbet, former mistress
of King Henry I of England. Did this miss your attention? If not, why
so? The database shows the wrong parents and no sources are cited. Is
this seriously your idea of a well sourced database? Really, John?
In answer to your question about the Bonville descent from the Pomeroy
family, I can vouch that the descent is sound, albeit with the
correction kindly noted by Ken Ozanne. The evidence for the
Pomeroy-Daumarle part of the descent can be found in abstracts of law
suits published many years ago in The Genealogist. The
Bonville-Daumarle connection can be found in many secondary works such
as Vivian. I posted the descent from Holly Forrest Tamer's database
solely for informational purposes.
As for Ms. Tamer, if I had to vouch for everyone I cite or quote here
on the newsgroup, I'd never get anything done! Fact is ALL modern
genealogical databases have problems (some minor, some serious) because
they were created by fallible human beings. To err is human, to
forgive is divine.
In fact, it's time I signed off and made a few errors of my own today.
At least I spelled Holly Forrest Tamer's name right this time.
Peter Stewart
> Dear John ~
>
> In your previous post, you flatly stated that the Breton nobility
> website was a well sourced database. That was your opinion, not a
> fact. We all have opinions. And, you're certainly entitled to your's.
>
> However, by any stretch of the imagination, the Breton nobility
> database is poorly sourced. In fact, in my cursory review of the
> database, I've found several accounts with NO source citation at all!
You mean like so many "facts" in PA3/RPA that have no support from the cited
references as pointed out here time and again?
The compiler of the Breton nobility database is not engaged in the
pretentious & stupid exercise of amassing citations that duplicate each
other and/or lead nowhere - naturally, if scholarly works from 1987, 1997
and 2005 are used, there is no point whatsoever in clogging up the database
by citing a reference work available to the later scholars that was
published from 1886 (I think), and by the way correctly titled 'Répertoire
général de bio-bibliographie bretonne' by René Kerviler (who died in 1907) &
others.
Just because you find something on the shelves of the FHL does not make it
indispensable in every context for everyone else. Your own citation
practice, to say nothing of your vapid internet browsing, hardly qualify you
to provide patronising criticism of anyone else.
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
As a followup to my original post, the item below concerns the Daumarle
family of Woodbury, Devonshire, which family were lineal descendants of
Maud de Vitré, wife of Henry (II) de Pomeroy. The record below
concerns a settlement made by William Daumarle the elder, of Woodbury,
Devon, on his son, William Daumarle the younger and his wife, Agnes, in
A.D. 1332-1333. A settlement such as this was typically made at the
time of marriage, or soon afterwards. This record confirms that
William Daumarle the younger's wife was named Agnes, not Ellen or Helen
or Isabel as reported by various online genealogical databases.
William Daumarle the younger in turn was the father of Margaret
Daumarle, first wife of Sir William Bonville, grandfather of Sir
William Bonville, Lord Bonville. Margaret (Daumarle) Bonville was
heiress to her maternal cousin, Sir John Meriet, as indicated by
Inquisition Post Mortem, 9 Henry IV, No. 42.
For interest's sake, the following is a revised list of the 17th
Century New World immigrants who descend from Maud de Vitré, wife of
Henry (II) de Pomeroy. As stated earlier, the immigrants below include
the newly identified Jane Greene, wife of William Pole (or Poole), of
Massachusetts.
William Bladen, Elizabeth Bosvile, Charles Calvert, Jane Greene (two
descents), Mary Launce, George Reade, Olive Welby, Thomas Wingfield.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: National Archives Catalogue
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp
C 143/220/4
Inquisition Ad Quod Damnum
Date: 6 Edward III [1332-1333].
William Daumarle, the elder, to settle the manor of Woodbury (with
exceptions) on himself for life, with remainder to William his son and
his heirs; and the manor of Limpstone (with the portion excepted from
Woodbury) on the said William the son and Agnes his wife and the heirs
of their bodies, with remainder to his right heirs; the said William
Daumarle retaining the manor of Chinnock (Somers.). Devon. Somers.
Douglas Richardson
I found the following interesting post written by Alain Rose on a
Breton related forum at the following weblink:
http://www.noblessebretonne.fr.st/
The post below discusses the history of the Dinan family of Brittany,
including that Gervaise de Dinan (died c. 1248), lady of Dinan, second
wife of Juhel de Mayenne, seigneur of Mayenne. Gervaise de Dinan was
the niece of Eleanor de Vitré, Countess of Salisbury in England and of
Maud de Vitré, wife of Henry (II) de Pomeroy. Gervaise de Dinan is
better known to students of English history by way of her third
marriage, as wife of Richard Marshal, Earl of Pembroke, which marriage
is not mentioned in the post. Monsieur Rose does mention the marriage
of Gervaise de Dinan's step-mother, Clémence de Fougères, to Ranulph,
Earl of Chester.
Monsieur Rose cites three modern sources for the Dinan family of
Brittany, which works I have not yet seen:
"Dinan, mille ans d’histoire", M-E. Monier, éd. Jean Floch, novembre
1977, pp. 38-40
"Quinze promenades autour de Dinan", M-E. Monier, éd. Jean Floch,
février 1978, pg. 25,
"Dinan au Temps des Seigneurs", P. Meazey, éd. de La Plomée, juillet
1997, pg. 72 note 69, pp. 113, 135.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
Copy of post by Alain Rose dated 14 June 2006.
Le 14 juin 06, à 22:06, Alain ROSE a écrit :
Bonsoir,
A la mort en 1186 de Rolland de Dinan, seigneur de Dinan-Bécherel, son
successeur est son neveu Alain de Vitré, fils cadet de sa sœur Emme
épouse de Robert III de Vitré. Alain de Vitré, devenu Alain de
Dinan-Bécherel, épouse Clémence de Fougères. Alain meurt en 1197 en
laissant comme héritière sa fille unique Gervaise de Dinan, laquelle
serait née d’un premier mariage. Elle épouse en premières noces
Juhel III de Mayenne, peut-être avant le décès de son père. Morte
en 1238, elle serait donc née vers 1170. Clémence de Fougères,
petite-fille de Raoul et fille de Agathe du Hommet, se remarie en 1200
avec Ranulf de Chester, l’éphémère époux de la duchesse
Constance. Clémence meurt en 1252. Son père serait Guillaume de
Fougères mort en 1187. Elle devait donc être fort jeune lorsqu’elle
a épousé Alain de Dinan. Ce qui accréditerait le fait que Gervaise
serait issue d’un premier mariage de celui-ci.
Les sources à ma disposition ne mentionnent ni l’existence d’une
Marguerite de Dinan fille de Geoffroy et de Clémence de Fougères, ni
celle de ce couple.
Sources :
"Dinan, mille ans d’histoire", M-E. Monier, éd. Jean Floch, novembre
1977, p. 38-40
"Quinze promenades autour de Dinan", M-E. Monier, éd. Jean Floch,
février 1978, p. 25,
"Dinan au Temps des Seigneurs", P. Meazey, éd. de La Plomée, juillet
1997, p. 72 note 69, p. 113, 135.
Cordialement,
Alain ROSE
Peter Stewart
and then quotes without comment someone else asserting that she was dead in
1238.
Does he notice such discrepancies, I wonder, or does he use SGM (I removed a
cross post - this is of negligible if any interest to SHM readers) to find
out from others whatever he has overlooked?
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1165077056.1...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bonjour ~
http://www.noblessebretonne.fr.st/
Bonsoir,
successeur est son neveu Alain de Vitré, fils cadet de sa sour Emme
Douglas Richardson
Regarding the death date of Gervaise de Dinan, lady of Dinan, late wife
of Richard Marshal, Earl of Pembroke in England, I find she was living
on 22 December 1236, when she founded a chantry in Saint-Aubin-des-Bois
Abbey [Reference: Anciens Evêchés, vol. iv, pg. 367]. She died
testate sometime before June 1248, when her son-in-law and daughter,
Dreux de Mello, seigneur of Loches and Mayenne, and Isabelle his wife
issued a charter which mentioned Isabelle's deceased mother,
Gervaise, late lady of Dinan ["bonae memoriae Gervasia, quondam
domina Dinanni"]) [Reference: A. Grosse-Duperon & E. Gouvrion, eds.,
Cartulaire de l'Abbaye Cistercienne de Fontaine-Daniel (Mayenne,
1896): 205-206].
Further particulars on Gervaise de Dinan may be found in the
authoritative Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 368-371 (sub Pembroke) and
in the excellent work, Généalogies Féodales Mayennaises du XIe au
XIIIe Siècle, by Abbé A. Angot (Laval, France, 1942).
Cordialement, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Peter Stewart
> Bonjour encore!
>
> Regarding the death date of Gervaise de Dinan, lady of Dinan, late wife
> of Richard Marshal, Earl of Pembroke in England, I find she was living
> on 22 December 1236, when she founded a chantry in Saint-Aubin-des-Bois
> Abbey [Reference: Anciens Evêchés, vol. iv, pg. 367].
That is how it is cited - for economy of print, of course - in CP vol 10,
but if you did indeed "find" this for yourself, as represented, you would
have discovered that the proper title is _Anciens évêchés de Bretagne,
histoire et monuments_.
Now can you explain why CP took from this source that Gervaise founded the
chantry "after 21 Dec. 1236", while you allegedly found in the same place
that she did so the very next day, "on 22 December 1236"?
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
Reviewing my post of yesterday regarding the death date of Gervaise de
Dinan, I realized that it contained another addition to Complete
Peerage.
Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 371 (sub Pembroke) states that Gervaise de
Dinan, lady of Dinan, widow of Richard Marshal, Earl of Pembroke, was
known to be living 21 December 1236. No further particulars are given
regarding her death date. As I indicated in my earlier post, the
records of Fontaine-Daniel Abbey show that Gervaise de Dinan died
testate sometime before June 1248, when her son-in-law and daughter,
Dreux de Mello, seigneur of Loches and Mayenne, and Isabelle his wife
issued a charter which mentioned Isabelle's deceased mother, Gervaise,
late lady of Dinan ["bonae memoriae Gervasia, quondam domina Dinanni"])
[Reference: A. Grosse-Duperon & E. Gouvrion, eds., Cartulaire de
l'Abbaye Cistercienne de Fontaine-Daniel (Mayenne, 1896): 205-206].
Complete Peerage gives relatively few particulars regarding Gervaise de
Dinan's father, Alan de Dinan, lord of Dinan. Alan de Dinan was
actually born Alan de Vitré, and adopted the surname Dinan after
becoming the heir c. 1185 of his uncle, Roland de Dinan, Knt., seigneur
of Dinan. A description of an equestrian seal of Alan de Dinan can be
found in the book, Inventaire des sceaux de la Normandie, by Germain
Demay (Paris, 1881), page 27.
Complete Peerage, 10 (1946): 370, footnote f states that the Pope
enquired in 1233 as to what affinity existed between Gervaise de Dinan
and her 3rd husband, Richard Marshal. No explanation is given for this
enquiry. However, reviewing the respective ancestries of Gervaise de
Dinan's 1st husband, Juhel de Mayenne, Knt., seigneur of Mayenne, and
that of Earl Richard Marshal, I find that the two men were related in
the 3rd and 4th degrees of kindred by way of their common descent from
Robert de Beaumont, 1st Earl of Leicester, and his wife, Isabel de
Vermandois.
At the date of the enquiry, Gervaise de Dinan and Richard Marshal had
been married for 11 years, giving us yet another example of a couple in
this period who failed to obtain the necessary dispensation prior to
their marriage, in this case due to affinity.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Peter Stewart
that are already known, although not to you?
CP is NOT the last word on Gervaise. Presumably the reference cited there
for her founding of a chantry after 21 December 1236 was some evidence of
involvement by an abbot or bishop who commenced in office on that date, or
similar evidence. Whateer, it does not mean that she made the foundation on
22 December as you seem to think.
Gervaise died in 1238/9, a decade before the charter of June 1248 that you
imagine is somehow an interesting addition to knowledge about her.
You have already copied a message about her stating that she was dead in
1238 and giving recent scholarly references.
Wouldn't it make professional sense to consult these rather than wasting
your own and other people's time with useless fumbling?
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1165203941....@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1165203941....@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> Complete Peerage, 10 (1946): 370, footnote f states that the Pope
> enquired in 1233 as to what affinity existed between Gervaise de Dinan
> and her 3rd husband, Richard Marshal. No explanation is given for this
> enquiry.
Popes don't usually make "enquiries" in such matters, and that is not an
accurate description of what happened in 1233. As noted in CP, Gervaise was
not given the title "countess" in Brittany after her third husband became
earl of Pembroke (in 1231), perhaps indicating that an irregularity in her
marriage was acknowledged locally. Report evidently reached the pope, who
instructed the bishop of Lisieux to examine the affinity between the
parties, but this canonical problem was neatly resolved when a surgeon
killed Richard in April of the following year.
Peter Stewart
D. Spencer Hines
Improving, or -- even better -- in remission, I hope.
Stay away from surgeons....
DSH
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1bQch.2323$HU....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Douglas Richardson
The following Ancient Petition is dated 1335-1336. It concerns various
requests made by Maud Daumarle, widow of William Daumarle, late Sherff
of Devon, to the king and council. In her petition, Maud states that
her husband "died in the king's service in Scotland, during his last
expedition." Calendar of Fine Rolls indicates that William Daumarle
was Sheriff of Devon between 7 November 1333 and 7 October 1335.
I presume that the William Daumarle in question was William Daumarle
the elder, of Woodbury, Devon, who other records show married Isabel de
Meriet, sister of George de Meriet, by whom he had his son and heir,
William Daumarle the younger.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
Source: National Archives Catalogue
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp)
SC 8/31/1520
Scope and content
Petitioners: Maud [Daumarl (Aumarle)], widow of William Daumarl
(Aumarle)
Addressees: King and council
Places mentioned: Devon; Scotland
Other people mentioned: William Daumarl (Aumarle), formerly Sheriff of
Devon; [John Randolph] Earl of Murref (Moray)
Nature of request: Maud, widow of William Daumarl, formerly Sheriff of
Devon, who died in the king's service in Scotland, during his last
expedition, makes four requests:
1) She requests a writ to the Treasurer and Barons of the Exchequer to
have payment by instalments of her husband's debt for the arrears of
his account rendered at the Exchequer at the quinzaine of Easter last,
which money is still to be levied.
2) She requests a writ to the Sheriff of Devon to levy the debt by a
quorum nomina which she will give him for it, so that he can be charged
and she discharged.
3) She requests that she might have a writ to appoint an attorney to
render an account for the time when her late husband had no account
before he died.
4) She requests a remedy against the Scots who are in the king's
keeping for killing her husband and taking his horses and goods to the
sum of £200 - which goods the Earl of Moray and his men had.
Endorsement: [None]
Covering dates [1335-1336]
Note: William Daumarle was Sheriff of Devon between 7 November 1333 and
7 October 1335 (CFR 1327-37 p.460 is dated at Berwick upon Tweed on
that date). He was succeeded by John de Chiddeleigh for just under a
month, which suggests that he died in office. This would fit with the
mention in the petition of his last account being at the quinzaine of
Easter last, and his widow's need to employ an attorney for the period
for which he did not account, and would suggest that the petition was
presented between his death and the following Easter - so in late 1335
or early 1336.CCR 1333-7 p.542 is dated at Walsingham, 12 February 1336.
mwelc...@yahoo.com
interesting
ancestry for the Bonville family.
I have prepared below an ahnentafel table of the ancestry of Sir
William Bonville, Lord Bonvile, who died in 1461. Any corrections or
addtions
would be greatly apperciated.
As ever, Mike
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
Generation 1
1. Sir William Bonville, Lord Bonville born 20 Aug 1393 died 18 Feb
1460/1
m. 1st Margaret Grey 2ndly Elizabeth Courtenay.
Generation 2
2. Sir John Bonville Born about 1371 died 21 Oct 1396 married by 18 Oct
1377
3. Elizabeth Fitz Roger Born 25 Aug 1370 died 15 Apr 1414
Generation 3
4. Sir William Bonville born 1340 died 1408 married
5. Margaret Daumarle born abt 1347 died 1399
6. John Fitz Roger born bet 1345-1352 died 1372 married
7. Alice _____, died 1436
Generation 4
8. Sir Nicholas Bonville born abt 1293 died 1354 married
9. Joan de Champernoun
10. Sir Willam Daumarle died 1361 married
11. Agnes _____.
12. Sir Henry Fitz Roger born 30 Nov 1318 died Jan or Feb 1352
married by 23 May 1340
13. Elizabeth de Holand died 13 July 1387
14. N.N
15. N.N.
Generation 5
16. Sir Nicholas Bonville died 1295 married
17. Hawise de Shute
18. Sir Henry de Champernoun born 1274 died 1330 married
19. Joan de Bodrugan
20. Sir Willam Daumarle died 1335 married 1st
21. Isabel de Meriet
22. N.N.
23. N.N.
24. Roger Martel born abt 1295 died by 6 Dec 1322 married bef 20 Nov
1318
25. Joan, probably de Lorty dead by 1322
26. Sir Robert de Holand, 1st Lord Holand born 1283 died 7 Oct 1328
married by 1309/10
27. Maud la Zouche born about 1290 died 31 May 1349
28. N.N.
29. N.N.
30. N.N.
31. N.N.